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#1392517 - 08/13/04 02:40 AM How long  
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Did it take to do the HP 0/400?


"We have come to bring you Liberty and Equality, but don't lose your head about it. The first one of you moves without my permission will be shot." Marshal of the Empire Francois Lefebyre
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#1392518 - 08/13/04 06:23 AM Re: How long  
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I don't know how much time the outside 3d modeler spent on his part _ he did the outer skin. I spent about 140 hours doing the rigging,damage model and texture map and getting it game ready. The HP O/400 was not one of our typical models. If you add in time for doing research and fixing things, put another 24 hours on the tab. These are all rough estimates from work done 9 months ago.

Why do you ask?

#1392519 - 08/13/04 01:24 PM Re: How long  

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Curiosity I'm sure. Some folks here have some experience modeling, and they probably want to make some comparisons.

So, about 165 hours of work. That's only a week, if you don't sleep or anything. Easy, right? \:D

So you can toss together a Zeppelin-Staaken Giant bomber, one of the large Caproni bombers, maybe a Blackburn Kangaroo and the Dornier Rs III, in s snap now. Attack of the big planes! ;\)

Droops

#1392520 - 08/13/04 01:54 PM Re: How long  
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Very interesting!
How long would the different jobs on a single seater take?

#1392521 - 08/13/04 02:36 PM Re: How long  
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You'll have to excuse me gentlemen, but I have a gut feeling that discussing the man-hours it takes to make the different types of aircraft is something I shouldn't be doing, at least not on a public forum. The HP O/400 seemed an exception since it was so different than any other aircraft I worked on. But the more I think about it, I probably shouldn't have even given out those details either. What has caused me to be more cautious in what I say was seeing parts of my posts made here on the SimHQ forum posted and quoted on other forums as well. It's like having a chat with a small circle of friends and discovering that a microphone has been planted in amongst the group and everything you say is being broadcast around the world.

Each modeler's time to do different tasks is different. A good rule of thumb is to triple the amount of time it takes to make a normal model to get a model ready for KOE.

The biggest influence on modeling time was the quality and quantity of reference material. Many times it seemed like I was more detective and engineer than modeler. I enjoyed having to think, but it certainly slowed the process down.

#1392522 - 08/13/04 02:46 PM Re: How long  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xeidos2:


Why do you ask?
I heard how easy it is and it didn't sound right.


"We have come to bring you Liberty and Equality, but don't lose your head about it. The first one of you moves without my permission will be shot." Marshal of the Empire Francois Lefebyre
#1392523 - 08/13/04 03:46 PM Re: How long  
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Ok, fair enough. I was just getting greedy \:D

#1392524 - 08/13/04 11:27 PM Re: How long  
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I can tell you for OpenPlane FS-WWI, making a single seat fighter with cockpit, damage model, flight model and skinning can be done in about 2 weeks. Usually tho it takes much longer as no one has THAT much free time all of the time. \:\(

P.S. This is with 3 people working on the project, not one.


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#1392525 - 08/14/04 01:39 AM Re: How long  
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I do!!!! Not by choice though.


"We have come to bring you Liberty and Equality, but don't lose your head about it. The first one of you moves without my permission will be shot." Marshal of the Empire Francois Lefebyre
#1392526 - 08/14/04 05:09 AM Re: How long  

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For an RB model I averaged over 150 iterations per model before I was ready to publish. That normally translated into about three months of steady work from start to finish. Now mind you I didn't have to produce a single texture for the model since I was able to use stock bitmaps for everything.

One of the first models I decided to tackle was the FDHG3. This is in many ways very similar to the HP 0/400 since it's a large complex twin engine bomber. I swear after a while you seem to establish a strange love hate/relationship with your models. You do so much research that in your minds eye you know what this thing looks like even though you've never seen one. The hate comes from all the hundreds of hours you have to spend at the computer to make it a reality. Add in the frustration of getting your model through the conversion process and it's a wonder that any modeler decides to do another one.

MM

#1392527 - 08/14/04 07:09 AM Re: How long  
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Of course, it's always after you finish a model that all of the model magazines come out with big articles and new three-view drawings about the plane you just sweated over. I think the experience marks you forever. One of the first aircraft I built for Gary Stottlemyer was a B-26, back in 1999, and I still have a Pavlovian type re-action whenever I see an image of one.

#1392528 - 08/14/04 07:48 AM Re: How long  
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I agree... Really a love/hate relationship going...

I've actually never built a whole 3d model from scratch. I usually assemble, program, code and tweak existing models. I've also never completed an entire skin from scratch either. I tweak existing skins, and remap models to fit most of the time. Call me the head quality control man for FS-WWI who just happens to be the project leader and distributor and community liason all at the same time. ;\) ;\)

It is indeed no easy task by any means for anybody to complete a model, get it-game and such. I have respect for anyone who does it, esp modders out there.


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#1392529 - 08/14/04 07:52 AM Re: How long  
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So do I.

Years ago I used to do flip books in my spare time. And it was not easy. So I can imagine just how much harder it is to model for a game like this or Il2.


"We have come to bring you Liberty and Equality, but don't lose your head about it. The first one of you moves without my permission will be shot." Marshal of the Empire Francois Lefebyre
#1392530 - 08/14/04 06:08 PM Re: How long  

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Oh, there can be any number of frustrating moments even after you've completed a model. For instance I built mine at a time before rigging a plane was ever considered possible. Some guy slaps wires on his model and now it's the hot ticket so yours just sits there, and will probably never be used. Months of hard work wasted for the want of a simple bitmap.

There are humbling experiances too like the time I was working on my tank project, and ran into the guy that started the whole modeling craze for RB. Blackjack as he was known then wanted to show me his new RB model, so he sent me the files and we jumped into a server so I could see his new toy. There he was flying a perfect replica of a 262 with animated exhaust flames and everything...lol. Don't you just hate guys that are that good?

I learned a lot from Blackjack, and one of those was to take time off to have some fun with a new idea. Building my fire breathing, wing flapping, Dragon was a lot more enjoyable then any plane I ever did.

MM

#1392531 - 08/15/04 08:53 AM Re: How long  
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With any model it is the horrible long drawn out slog between building the big bits and finishing off the fine detail.

With some it's not too bad. The SPAD VII was a dream to build. I had good pics ( inside and out ) and the plane just seemed to build itself! Lovely.

The Nieuport Bebe was a case in point. Lovely plane outside... bit of a problem on the interior...

Nothing compared the the Gotha GI though \:\) Or the Caproni Ca33.... finding good cockpit pics and interior detail was like finding rocking horse manure \:D


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#1392532 - 08/15/04 09:00 AM Re: How long  
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Yeah I was finally able to find good interior pics for the Ca.33 and Ilya V. The Ca.33 pit is on the to-do list. \:D


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#1392533 - 08/15/04 10:21 AM Re: How long  
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Quote:

With any model it is the horrible long drawn out slog between building the big bits and finishing off the fine detail.
Yes, indeed. Gibbage, who has both modelled freeware flight sim planes and commercial ones, says that to make the plane model for a screenie needs two days and to make it work in the game (LoDs, DM, animation, posibly texture mapping etc) takes the rest of the month. A realistic view and something to keep in mind when seeing screenies or when talking to people that have modelled something, but never finished something for a game, or that do ship the plane without LoDs in a sim that needs them. You can then create the screenies in game instead of in the 3D modeller ;\) .

Quote:

finding good cockpit pics and interior detail was like finding rocking horse manure
Yes. people reading WWII or WWI stuff see pictures or drawings of exotic parts of exotic planes and think historic research should be easy. But when you need something specific (say cockpit of Gotha GI), it can be hard or even impossible. I was on the airshow in Baden Baden (no typo ;\) ) last weekend and spoke to the owner of an aviation bookshop. We spoke about the bucket under the Ju52 auxiluary bomber. Of course the Ju52 was one of the premier planes of WWII, maybe after the Me109 the second most photographed German WWII airplane, although admittedly not as aux. bomber. The bookshop owner told me that until shortly ago there were no photos or drawings of it's inside!! Just recently some came to light in Russia.

Another case in point:
Even WWII manufacturer drawings can be wrong. We just the last few days looked for Hawker Hurricane drawings. There are of course a lot around, but most are different from each other, so which to use. Our expert said to use those by Arthur Bentley. Bentley first drew the plans with everything a plastic modeller needs, which is thankfully very similar to what a 3D modeller needs. Only then did he go to Hawker and compare them to the plans Hawker had stored on microfilm. They were one of the first firms to convert the old paper planes to mircofilm to archive them for posterity. His plans did not match with Hawker's general plans at all! After a bit of time he saw Hawker's "general outline" plans were wrong, actually different plans from Hawker contradicted each other. So, it is not surprising there are so many cr*p plans around.

#1392534 - 08/16/04 10:09 AM Re: How long  
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I don't think researching any plane from any era is particularly and WW1 era stuff is especially hard in some ways as a lot of information simply isn't available. On the other hand it's easier than other periods in other ways - mostly because there are a limited number of bulk high quality sources of information. There's 4 main magazine/journals:

Over The Front (and its predecessor Cross and Cockade)
Cross and Cockade International
WW1 Aero (and their catalogue of photocopies of original material)
Windsock International and Windsock Datafiles

Then there's the PRO which now has its catalogue searchable online where you can find a fair number of reports and so on.

Of course there are many other sources in the form of books, archives, etc but I'd say access to the above covers about 90% of the research needed to build the 3D model, inside and out, of most aircraft from the major combatants on the Western Front. I don't really think research into WW2 aircraft is any easier once you get away from the well known planes and there isn't really such a focussed concentration of materials for research either.

Have fun
Finn


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