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#1392462 - 08/08/04 09:25 AM Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  

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Salute Everyone !
Glad to see there is a spark left in K.O.E.
I just wanted to say, please make this game have a better and easier online wars then IL2. Full cockpit view isn`t everyones bag. Atleast keep flyiers names above there aircraft. Nice to know which plane your wingman is in. Also show enemys name above his plane. Nice to know who you are about to blast out of the sky. Also make it alot easier for bombers to find there targets, not like IL2 where you have to fly by a compass and watch the ground and street signs to locate where you are on the map. These things arn`t needed to make a fun and challenging game. Please don`t create something where you have to go to flight school to learn to play. Remember its still a game! All these things can be added to IL2 but the full realism addicts cry when ever anyone goes against them. Il2 must be a nightmare to first time flight simmers. Especially virtual online wars. They are probably lost most of the war, and never find there way back to there base. I wish IL2 would create just one virtual online war server for players who like to play without full realism. I think it would really help out the new players. Some players really injoy flying with outside views. Well i say let them have it, Oleg built these devices into his game, lets use them.
Il2 is a master piece! It has gotten overtaken buy hard core simmers. They are great players that have alot of talent and time behind a joystick. But they need this type of Virtual war server to help out the new players coming into flight sim for the first time.
Take Care!
Rooster

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#1392463 - 08/08/04 11:45 AM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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Salute Rooster!

Maybe that's why we need a sim for an earlier age of combat flying, when flying was done by the seat of the pants, with maps on scrollers, and mostly through visual referencing. ;\)

BTW, my mother who was a US Navy Wave during WW2 taught Navy pilots instrumentation flying on Link trainers............dad flew into combat on CG4A assault gliders with the 82nd Airborne Division.

Still, we have enough WW2 sims to choose from (I know, I know......there's never enough of a good thing)! ;\)

#1392464 - 08/08/04 12:34 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  

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Salute FlyXwire \:\)
Thats cool your DAD was a Glider pilot, they had a tough mission to handle. They crashed alot of those gliders, went in after dark. My Dad was in the 82nd Airborne also in WW2, He was in the 504th Paratroopers. Fought threw the Battle of the Bulge. He had tons of cool war stories he would tell us. Wish he was still around, so i could hear them all over again. Plus it sounds like your Mother had a tough job also. I bet she had a time with those new recruits. I love the WW2 era of flight sims but they don`t hold a candle to WW1 aircraft when it comes right down to Dog Fighting. Just think of the fun we could have if Oleg would develope us a WW1 flight sim. Can you imagine the Guts are Fathers must of had to go out and fight a War when they were so young. I Salute these Brave men and women who stand up and defend there nations. With out them we wouldn`t have any great Flight Sims!
Take Care!
Rooster

#1392465 - 08/08/04 01:38 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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LOL! I thought that's the impression I would leave with my posting above...........wondered if anyone would be interested in exploring it further. ;\)

Actually my dad was a draftee who was assigned to the 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, unlike your dad Rooster who volunteered for the paratroopers. My father didn't want to be a hero by any means, and when inducted into the service he was "asked" what his preference was for duty assignment. Well he put down something like air ground crewman (for the Army Air Corps) so he could stay on the ground, and behind the lines to work on aircraft and such........this as far away from combat as he could try to think of! Guess what, they put him in the Airborne, and made him a combat glider infantrymen! \:D

Well he did eventually volunteer to become a radio operator, so he could at least be assigned to a Battalion or Regimental HQ company, but in the Airborne that doesn't get you off the "front lines" any. ;\)

He served in the Army from 1942-45, eventually fighting in Italy, France, Holland, and Belgium where he got frozen feet during the Battle of the Bulge (eventually returning to the 82nd in their initial garrison duty of Berlin).

I'm sure your dad has told you some amazing stories about the war too Rooster (is he still living)?

#1392466 - 08/09/04 06:58 AM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  

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Salute FlyXwire!
Wonder how many players come from parents who have served in the Armed Services. Sorry to say FlyXwire my Dad passed away a few years ago. The WW2 Veterans are leaving us very fast these days. Hate to see this Great Generation go. My Dad joined the 82nd Airborne, fiqured if he had to fight he wanted to be with the best unit he could get into. He told me he went on leave after Jump School and didn`t quit return when he was post to, They shipped the Paratroopers to the Pacific Theater. He missed the boat on purpose. When he got back from AWOL they shipped him to Europe. He didn`t want anything to do with Jungle Fighting. Fiqured he would have a better chance of living threw the war fighting Huns. My Dad wanted to make it threw to the end like your Dad did, He was looking forward to Garrison Duty of Berlin, But he had some Stubid Seargent lead the Squad into a Land Mine Field. And he got Wounded, So that ended his time overseas. He would always tell me he got wounded the day Roesevelt died. Your Dad was in alot of the Theaters in WW2, He saw most of WW2, Man i bet he has a ton of great history he could tell everyone. The Battle Of The Bulge was very cold, and it was hard to get proper supplies to the men on the Frontlines. My dad would tell me how they would keep up the morale of the men on the frontline. They would tell them Patton is just over the hill and he will be here soon. LOL He never did show.
\:\) Take Care!
US95 Rooster

#1392467 - 08/09/04 08:50 AM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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Yes please..make KOE an arcade game

#1392468 - 08/09/04 12:22 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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Captn Roster, what exactly is your problem with IL-2?

All the things that you dont like about it can be turned off, and the things you want (names, easier navigation, no cockpit etc.) can turned on.

It's called "scalability" which means it is a game suited for both new players and hardcore realism players.

Your problem doesn't seem to be with the software...your problem is with the players who do want more realistic or harder settings on their server.

However, that certainly is no reason to force KOE Players to use Icons, No-Cockpit and GPS Navigation.

As for IL-2...why dont create your own small online war/server with the settings you like. There have been a few attemps at creating an "more fun" settings war, but usually there were not enough people interested.

#1392469 - 08/09/04 03:02 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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There have been quite a few posts around making sims more accessable to the rookie pilot in here recently, and they have covered a lot of this ground.

There does need to be a high degree of scalability when it comes to difficulty level, but you can't take away the need to have that level of realism available for those that want it.

Personally, I hate flying 'no cockpit' and find it an immersion killer, plain and simple. In reality, though, the view you get from the cockpit is a lot more restrictive than it would be in real life. You can't move youe head around, and the eyes don't 'block out' obstructions as they would in real life. Its something I accept to get the increased illusion that I am 'in the hot seat'

As far as options go, IL2 has quite a lot. You can turn on or off a lot of things. Ther eare 2 whole screens of 'switches' to tweak difficulty. Mind you... I fly offline.

The problem is, I would have to agree, the approach of the bulk of the online pilots that makes the rooky feel inadequate. People will fly full real, with all the helpers turned off, and if you want to fly with them, you have to do the same.

This is both bad, and good, and hits RIGHT at the core of the online flying dilemma.

If you want to fly against pilots who are making use of additional 'helpers' blackouts off, padlocks on, no cockpit view, etc. and you are not usign these, you wil get shot apart. People do not choose the options they fly with to 'balance' their skill against other pilots. They fly to win and will use whatever they are permitted to use to achieve that. The only way to achieve parity on a server is to restrict all to the same settings.

What is needed, really, is to have 'rookie' servers for new pilots... but then, we all know what would happen. It would only take a couple of experienced idiots to set up new ID's and wreak havoc on the newbies....

We all have to learn to fly somewhere, and the best way to do that is to hook up with a squadron and get the old hands to teach you some tricks. I am sure there are guys who will fly 1 on 1 with you to help you improve your skills. Probably a lot more fun than just getting shot to hell online every time!

As far as KOE goes, all the things you DON'T want are things I would find quite enjoyable! Sitting with a printed off map on my lap trying to spot tell tale landmarks to get me to my target or home again would be a real boost to me. It wouldn't matter in combat...simply because you focus only on winning the fight. Then you find out where you are again and head on. Also, no cockpit view robs you of a chance to look at some very beautiful aircraft! And a lovingly crafted cockpit too \:D


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#1392470 - 08/09/04 10:13 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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I wouldn't call them 'rookie' servers but you are right. Not all relaxed realism fliers are rookies. If they were then the old Air Warrior servers would have had a few relaxed realism fliers and more and more folks in the advanced ones. If I remember right it was the opposite.

As I said, we need to point out the arcade features in games so people who are interested in them can make their way to them. The options in IL2 actually allow for as arcadish a game as you want, stalls spins, red and white outs, torque effects, cockpit, enabling padlocks, etc. etc. can all be scaled in the game.

I do agree though that people buying the game come into something like ubi.com or hyperlobby find the task of getting into an online flight somewhat overwhelming. People find that almost all the servers are full or modified full realism and that there aren't many options available. Some folks played CFS longer because of the ability to play less realistic games. The problem their of course were the guys that made a Hurri I fly like a UFO and equipped it with 22 30mm cannons. Not much fun there when you try to fly a stock aircraft against those fools.

I like the way Oleg did it. He had it easy enough for the non realism crowd to learn but hard enough that the full realism crowd took it to new levels.

The trick is to get new players to try it. As I said before, once someone gets proficient in a relaxed environment it is almost second nature to make it harder. That way that person can feel he or she had beaten the game on the harder settings. Our job is to encourage people to play the game, even if it is on easier mode. Sometimes we ridicule folks for not doing that, and I am not totally sure if they will gain the skills as quickly doing it that way, but they will have fun. And if they have fun, that is the real goal of any game.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#1392471 - 08/10/04 09:18 AM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  

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Salute Everyone!
Great post here on IL2, What i would really like to see in IL2 in there Virtual Online Wars is away you could find your wingman after a dog fight. Not that we need names above the aircraft, but something to help indentify his plane. Maybe we could have numbers on the rudder or even different colors on the tail section. When you pick a plane before the war starts maybe we could get assigned a number or a color for that plane. That wouldn`t take away much realism of the game.
The main problem i have is why they don`t have just one Virtual online war server setup for arcade style of fighting. I`am not saying use all the arcade stuff, just a few to make it easier for the new players. I don`t want to change IL2 just asking for just one easier Virtual Online War Server. I just think it would help out the newer flyers. They wouldn`t have to worry about navigating so much. Also they could find and engage the enemy alot easier. These are things that new pilots need to injoy the game. Like A rookie leaque, thats not so much to ask for. I`am not talking about the nightly servers that everyone dog fights in everynight. But a server like VEF. I really think this would help keep first time flyers more interested in this game.
That way you will always have a fresh bunch of newbies to pick from, for all the Il2 Squads. I no il2 has all these easier settings for there game. I really like IL2! Don`t get me wrong here. But these are things i hear from new pilots. Full realism is hard to get used to. Unless you have one very fast puter with graphics set at full detail. And you have played so many missions that you have memorized each campaign. So you already no where the enemy will be at once the war starts.
Take Care!
Rooster

#1392472 - 08/10/04 09:37 AM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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Quote:
Originally posted by US95th Capt Rooster:
Salute Everyone!
Great post here on IL2, What i would really like to see in IL2 in there Virtual Online Wars is away you could find your wingman after a dog fight. Not that we need names above the aircraft, but something to help indentify his plane. Maybe we could have numbers on the rudder or even different colors on the tail section. When you pick a plane before the war starts maybe we could get assigned a number or a color for that plane. That wouldn`t take away much realism of the game.
I did that all the time...flying with people from my squad, or other familiar faces I took note on their tactical number and plane paint sheme, and usually was able to find them again quickly after a fight. That's the beauty of IL-2...individual skins and individual numbers allow you to identify people in a historical manner.

As for your request for a "relaxed realism war server", there was one a while ago, and obviously not enough people were interested so I think it went dead again. You could take up the challenge trying to find players and restart something like that.

#1392473 - 08/10/04 10:49 AM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  

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Salute Col.RS
Thats great idea! I think i will paint the tell section Red on a P51, And give it to my buddie. We should beable to see each other with brite Red Tails. Might be a easier target for the enemy, but atleast we will beable to see each other in the Full Cockpit Servers. \:D I remember awhile back some one was going to make IL2 alot like RB3D type of play. I guess it didn`t make it. Not enough players got behind the idea. I tell people that IL2 has some great looking Biplanes in it already. I no they look the same but we could paint them to look Allied Or Hun. And they fly like a dream. The dog fights are great fun. I have fought in these servers that only have the old planes in them. There is some great fun here for WW1 fliers. I think we could establish some WW1 Squads, if more people would look what IL2 has to offer in there older aircraft. I would be more interested in getting a WW1 group started. They are fun to paint, so each squad could have there own colors. I think it could happen if we had enough support from the WW1 players. If Oleg seen some real interest in the older planes in the servers, who knows he may add a few more Biplanes. \:D
Thanks For The Info Col.RS
Take Care!

#1392474 - 08/10/04 12:34 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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Personally I'd like to see a combat sim with harsh restrictions for add-ons in multiplayer but no restrictions in single player. If KOE were made into something exactly like IL2 where all add-ons had to go through the developer I think it would seriously limit how much stuff ended up in the game.

Have fun
Finn

#1392475 - 08/10/04 01:17 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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FinnN, I completely agree!

#1392476 - 08/10/04 03:53 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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True Finn but you know for a fact it would take .006 seconds before people started whinning that their beloved P-XX isn't online capable.

I think the approved idea was a good one. Get aircraft that are created and accepted by the developer as having his 'seal of approval'. I really think he underestimated the desire to add new aircraft to the game.

What is needed is a development crew, maybe guys involved indirectly in the development, to review and approve all new aircraft coming into the game. They don't have to be coders, just people with the ability to research aircraft and to verify that the aircraft perform in a manner similar to their real world counterpart. Once approved it goes to the developer for final approval and then goes out in the next update to the game.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#1392477 - 08/10/04 04:49 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:
They don't have to be coders, just people with the ability to research aircraft and to verify that the aircraft perform in a manner similar to their real world counterpart
well err..that's not really the guy you find around the corner. Though you will see a lot of self-claimed aeronautical engineers on forums, I'm not sure they would be fit for the role.

But well, it's what Oleg team is doing when they check their data, I don't think only coders are involved. But it has to be men you can trust, so you must know them well, and it must be quite a job, not just checking sea level speed. (but you know that better than me)

Nikko

#1392478 - 08/10/04 05:09 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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I'm definitely of the authorised version school of thought, too. Life's too short for finding and evaluating hundreds of different mods.

The other thing I find is that when you have multiple different 3D models and fligth and damange models knocking around, it damages the illusion of reality. Makes me painfully aware that it's all a matter of different humans opinions as to how my plane flies - not something that concerns a real Dr.I pilot! His plane flies the way it does because that's the way it flies, he can't pop off and modify physics to let it turn better or climb quicker.

So even if Oleg's version is inaccurate, I'm happy to accept it as his hopefully consistent version of reality. Means that whenever I climb into a Hurricane Mk II in FB I will be flying the same plane. In RB from one war to the next a SPAD may be a completely different plane depending on which FM is flavour of the month in the latest online war or offline UOP.

#1392479 - 08/10/04 05:21 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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When it comes to WW1, the problems of getting accurate performance data go up by several orders of magnitude!

There are no 'real life' pilots to add input, and when it came to actually using hte planes in combat, many options, variations and modifications come into play. Many planes used different engines etc. and any flight data is potentially misleading without good provenance.

Making any sim completely 'closed' is a bit of a 2-edged sword.

For the developer, it has allowed Oleg to sell additional game 'add-on's using the same core game. Third parties have done the modelling and skinning, and Oleg's team have converted itto game specs and added flight data. No tools are released, and no user is able to modify the flight data. On the downside, though, is the fact that no user can add his/her own planes. Lots of people have wanted to see lots of new planes, and they are not there. Never will be either! I chose not to model for IL2 simply because of the level of work you would have to put in to build to the required standard, with no guarantee that you would EVER see your plane fly. It reduces the interest of those who don't enjoy the stock planeset, and of those who like a moddable sim.

Again, switching to a WW1 context...

I don't want to fly a Dr1 or a Camel. No interest there for me at all. I WOULD enjoy something that focused a little earlier. SPAD VII's, Nieuport 11's, DH2's, Sopwith Pup and 1 1/2 Strutter ... that sort of thing. The 'non-fanatic' wants to see the planes they have heard of! This means you end up having DVII's DR'1 and Albatross flying against Se5's and Camels. Very little chance of an early Be2, outside hope for a DH4 and the poor old Harry Tate usually gets forgotten ;\)

IF you make a sim at least partially 'open' then the chance of getting the quirky and the interesting is far greater! I like quirky ;\) Probably explains a lot! When I told ArgonV I was making a Gotha for SDOE WW1 he was expecting a GIV or GV...but he got a GI \:D


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#1392480 - 08/10/04 05:28 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  
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Quote:
When it comes to WW1, the problems of getting accurate performance data go up by several orders of magnitude!
Is it possible to forsee a future in which when "modellnig" a plane you don't just build a 3D model, but you actually virtually build the plane; specifying the materials & size of each last bit and how it hangs together? Then stick it in a virtual wind tunnel and find out its flight characteristics by testing it?

You could have an enormously complex flight model in the wind tunnel program for discovering these flight characteristics, then a system for simplifying them to have a simplified flight model that the game could realistically run on normal PCs at a sensible speed.

I'd have thought that software like this must already exist - what do Boeing use to design new planes? Must be something along these lines...

#1392481 - 08/10/04 06:34 PM Re: Don`t Make K.O.E. like IL2  

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Having been involved in so many different mods for RB I have to wonder where would RB be today if Sierra had to approve the addition of any new models. Would my MMP FM, Devils Island patch, tanks, trucks, trees, infantry, balloons, Zepplins, float plane, ships, rear gunner, or even Snoopy have ever made it into the game?

If you look at the servers and SP war scenerios that have been offered to the RB community over the years like The Great War series, Western Front Patch, Italian front, The Russian Civil war, Flanders in Flames or Full Canvas Jacket would these have ever been possible if the developer had the last word on any and all mods?

The answer to both of these questions is of course, No!

Don't get me wrong I'm not against the sale of approved add-ons they certainly have the potential to add to the profitability of the game. But at the same time if you severely restrict the free flow and development of customer based war scenerios then you will inevitably doom the life cycle of that game. If it weren't for the boundless imagination and dedication of RB modders this sim would not be in it's seventh year.

KoE might be best served by a two stage approach. One would package and sell approved add-ons and war scenerios as they become available. The other would allow us the customers to dictate what and where we fly. The models and war scenerios that come out of this customer based stage could then be incorporated into an approved add-on if they so choose.

MM

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