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#1392423 - 08/08/04 02:44 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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Making the planes:

Where do I begin. There were 2 other 3d artists involved before I came on the scene. They had moved on before I got to Denver so I never met them. They certainly laid a very solid foundation for me to build apon. I have to pay them the highest compliment I can to another modeler in that when I saw their models, I couldn't see anything to improve or fix. Later Gary would tell me stories about working with them and now it's hard for me to know how much of this quality is their skill and how much of it was Gary pounding on them to pay more attention to detail. Anyway, the results are fantastic. When I made those renders for the user interface I just took the game models as they were, nothing had to be added. I've tried both ways of modeling the plane in that on my first planes, SE5a and Nieuport 17, I built the frame work first and then built the fabric over the top. But on the latest one, the Rumpler, I was trying it the other way around and it was proving to be easier. Every model teaches me something new. I'm always learning. And no two planes are alike. While I can do all of the modeling myself, I spent most of my time working with other people's models and getting them ready to go into the game. Getting a model game ready is quite a bit of work in itself. A lot of the complexity comes from the way the damage model works. Every part and group had to be named and linked in a very specific way. Pivot points had to be checked and re-checked. It was a very tedious and time-consuming process. It made me just shake my head when I first read VonHelton's posts about how easy it would be to have a hundred different planes in the first release of KOE. I would have loved handing the HP O/400 over to him and see what he could have done with it in half a week. I have a love/hate relationship with the HP O/400. It was a monster to work on, but I love to watch it lumber through the virtual skies. The 3d model was started by an outside contractor. He was a good friend of mine whom I had met over the internet at the Targetware forums. Gary was looking for additional 3d guys and I had recommended him. He was doing the work in his spare time as he had a regular job as well. Here we had a prime example of the difference between hobbiest and game pros. The quality of the model he made was excellent. Every strut and spar was shaped exactly right and in the exact spot. His engineering background showed through in many ways. But it took him forever to do it. He was taking 40 hours to do what I could do in two. Then his regular job got crazy and he no longer had "spare" time. I ended up having to take over the completion of the model if we were to have any hope of making the milestone deadline. They call it a deadline because you kill yourself trying to meet it. The HPO/400 is a massive airplane and nothing about it is simple. Finding reference material was especially hard. The rigging in the tail area proved to be the most difficult. Then we had a host of technical problems related to transfering files from one software program to another. Problems that we haven't had before or since. Problems that caused me to start spelling H-E-L-L with HP O/400 instead. We have some screen shots up on the website and you can see the results of our efforts.



My favorite part of the modeling process is collecting the reference material. I supported the Birds of Prey effort by buying all my Windsock Data Files from them. My least favorite part is getting the model game ready. But then there is the experience of seeing your work fly around in the virtual world. As I would take the SE5a and dodge in amongst the trees I could hear Jerry Goldsmith's theme music to Blue Max playing in the background. We couldn't quite re-create the scene completely as Ed had only started on the Pfaltz DIII when Destineer pulled the plug on us. Hopefully when the lights go back on again we'll get all those pieces together and then we can have some real thrills.

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#1392424 - 08/08/04 03:24 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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Xeidos2...........YOU'RE TEARIN' OUR HEARTS OUT!!!

Quote:
But then there is the experience of seeing your work fly around in the virtual world. As I would take the SE5a and dodge in amongst the trees I could hear Jerry Goldsmith's theme music to Blue Max playing in the background.
LOL! ;\)

How many of us have that Blue Max soundtrack too!

I put it on sometimes to inspire myself to do more texturing (like I should be now on the Richthofen's Skies Nieuport 11 skin), and I certainly think we can relate to what you mentioned above about hobbiest being able to work as perfectionist, but oh we're so SLOW!

Sv (Sean V. Baker), over at Wings With Wires once commented in a discussion on the BoP forum to the affect that many skinners (hobbiest) might be super at what they could do working at their own meticulous pace, but for a whole (commercial) project their productivity would be sorely lacking..........this is the difference from doin' it for fun, or day in day out as a professional (I don't believe my eyes could take texturing full-time, let alone sitting on my A$$ all day). \:D

So much good stuff Xeidos2..........um, you're not risking telling us too much here are ya? ;\)

#1392425 - 08/08/04 05:47 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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Yeah model building and then getting that model into the game engine is indeed tedious!! Even if you have the right tools... KOE models are 100 times more complex than OpenPlane models too at present! I respect any person who can get a model in-game in a timely mannar... I know, as I've put 10+ into SDOE myself! VonHelton just cracks me up sometimes. \:D


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#1392426 - 08/08/04 07:05 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  

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Having built a number of models for RB I can attest to the difficulty, and satisfaction involved in bringing a model to life in the game. The work you did for KoE is at least a level of magnitude more complex then anything you'll find in RB since we use no internal framing system in any of our models. This kind internal model complexity must have also translated into a much more comprehensive damage and flight model as well or there would have been no need for this extraordinary detail.

I have one or two questions if I may. Was there ever any mention of releasing tools or technical information so that models could be built and added into the game at a latter date?

Certainly, one of the greatest stumbling blocks in modding RB is the fact that so many parameters were hard coded in the exe at some preset limit. Would the structure of KoE have allowed us to expand it beyond it's released version?

MM

#1392427 - 08/08/04 07:27 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  

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Hi John,
It's good to hear you're hanging in there. On the history channel last weekend they had a series of shows entitled, "World War I in Color." The one on the Air War had pictures of the HP-0/400's taking off and in flight, which would have been great references for the landing gear animation ;\)

I'm moving (In the middle of moving now, but just a couple of miles) Once I'm there full time I'll send you my new e-mail address.

BTW, I'm enjoying the saga so far, thanks for sharing your experience.
Ken

#1392428 - 08/08/04 10:04 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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To Midnitmike:
I've been told that from the very beginning, part of the business plan for KOE was to make add-ons. To protect that part of the plan, it was decided not to make the aircraft "open source." I was also told that making open source aircraft makes things much more difficult from a programming point of view. I didn't ask for more details as I probably wouldn't have understood them anyway. It was also part of the plan that the flight sim community would soon figure out on their own how to make additional texture maps for the planes. I mean if you know how to make a skin for a plane in MSFS 2k2 of FS9, then you've got the means to make a texture for a KOE plane. This is not to say that modders won't be able to make planes that could end up in KOE. The SE5a started out as a model built in Gmax. But to get it into the game it will have to go through some custom software developed by Aspect. Even I can't finish a plane 100%. I would often think to myself while working on a plane, if the modders knew how hard these crates were to finish, they'd be thanking us for not making it possible for them to try and make one themselves. Many of the ideas about what the revived version of KOE will be(maybe we should call it KOEII) haven't even been written down yet, let alone finalized. The best I can do is make suggestions. My hope is that we would set up a system where we would put out enough information to the public that modelers could build a base model. These models would be submitted to us for review. The ones we wanted and could use, we would then buy the rights to and give proper compensation to the modeler. These models would then be run through the Aspect process and then made available to the public as add-ons. It's just an idea now. For me the big attraction of the idea is that it would allow us to get a lot more planes into the game since we wouldn't have to build every one from scratch.

To FlyXwire:
I'm being very careful not to give away anything. Gary says he doesn't read the forums but I write every word as if he did. I avoided saying what software programs we use and didn't give any details about the process that we use except to say that it's tedious. I don't think we have a copyright on tedious. ( Too bad, as we could make a fortune if we did. :p )

Hi Sundog,

Good to hear from you again. I hope you like what I wrote. I'll wait for your e-mail to get the details, but could you see enough movement in the gear on the HPO/400 that it would be worth animating?

#1392429 - 08/08/04 11:40 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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This is a facinating thread. Among the best I have ever read on any forum at any time.

#1392430 - 08/09/04 01:45 AM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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John - I personally think that the business model of giving out specifications and allowing the community to build models that can be submitted and added to the sim is the best way of working. That way, quality is well controlled, people can get their aircraft in the sim, and the flight modelling still remains under Aspect's control. Much better for the community, IMO. (see: IL-2 Forgotten Battles).

#1392431 - 08/09/04 01:53 AM Re: KOE from the inside out  

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amazing stuff! Thanks. This 3d modeling facinates me. is this something that anyone can learn? where would the hobbiest go to learn how to make these type of models? Summer is winding down here in Michigan and its going to be a long cold winter. The wife doesn't like it when build plastic models in the house, but I don't think she could complain about computer ones. \:\) Of course other than some simple recoloring of skins for RB3D I don't know much about creating things with the PC. I do make a decent virtual pilot though \:D

#1392432 - 08/09/04 02:44 AM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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KOE and the forums

Let me start off and say that this last week has been quite an education to me about the hazards of trying to keep people up to date on what's been going on with KOE and it's future. It was a very real roller coaster ride of emotions for me and people were starting to get confused.

Confusion is never a good thing unless it's happening to your enemy, and you people are not the enemy.

The week started with everyone up and excited about the possibility of coming up with a plan to save KOE. The responses to the poll were very positive and over 300 people had responded in just three days. Then the call to "let go of KOE" came and everyone felt as if the rug had been pulled out from under them yet again and that the last spark of hope for KOE was snuffed out. MK2 put out a call to rally the troops around the idea of building a WW1 sim based on the EAW engine. The generals (programmers with knowledge and experience) quickly and accurately pointed out all the perils of following that course of action. Then the word came from on high that people should not think KOE dead, but that it's arrival has been delayed. When it arrives it will have a different name and it will arrive in stages rather than all at once. A small spark of hope was re-lit, but tempered with a "we'll wait and see" attitude as well.

What have I learned? To word announcements very carefully. To find out from the decision makers more information before making an announcement. To know what's not happening is just as important as knowing what is happening. I've also had the truth re-inforced that people appreciate a person being open and honest with them more than they like having their ears tickled.

History of KOE and the forums from one persons point of view.

Shortly after arriving in Denver I was given very clear and strict instructions not to become publicly involved in any of the discussions going on in the forums about KOE. No good thing would come of it in the long run was what I was told. It wasn't mentioned then but I learned it last week that getting in the middle of a forum discussion, even when it's good and positive, can suck up a lot of a person's time and attention. Being such a small team, nobody had any time to spare.

Another big factor for the silence from Aspect. When the publishing contract was signed with Destineer, it was Destineer's responsibility to establish a KOE website and design and impliment a PR campaign. When Destineer failed to do this the harm that this would do to the project was clear to us all. The first inclination was to step in and start doing that part ourselves. But the thinking of the leaders was, when you stepped in and did something that was someone else's job, their job became your job. Their responsibility became your responsibility. So we were told to hold off and they would make more attempts to have Destineer keep their promises. I remember that some of the comments on the forums about our silence were very close to the truth about the situation. Others were way off. It reminded me of the children's game where the object is to find an object in a room that only some of the players know what it is. When a person is getting close to that object, the other players say, "You're getting warmer." When they walk away from the object the players say, "you're getting colder."
Many a time I wanted to get on the forum and say, you're getting warmer, or you're frozen or you're spot on. (An expression I learned from British modeling magazines.) But I didn't. I was following orders like a good sailor.

Mat Herman was KOE's producer. He did an excellent job. It was a shock when he was laid off in late February. When he left, all offical communications with the flight sim community stopped. Announcements were not made because it never became clear what was going to happen next. Hope was held onto that things might yet get resolved, but they were not.

What forums did I read?
When I first arrived on the team I spent most of my reading time at the Aerodrome's forums. They had a wealth of knowledge that was very useful to me as a 3d modeler. The computer artwork of Mark Miller was absolutly incredible. It's museum quality. But it would never work as a game object. Mat tried to recruit him to help us, but Mark declined. I know one is not suppose to covet your neighbor's possessions, but I certainly coveted Mark's models for making renders to be used as screens for the user interface art. Mark did share plans with me of the LeRhone engine, which I used while making the Nieuport 17 model. Thanks again Mark. It was only many months later that I began to start reading the posts at SimHQ. I came in just as VonHelton was getting banned. I knew there were other forums out there, but I never visited them much.

It was three months from the time I offically got laid off till the time I was allowed to give Eddie_W the green light to make the announcement about Destineer breaking the contract with Aspect. I had told GS that the people on the forums were becoming so angry at Aspect and the lack of news was creating so much ill will, that it was starting to damage our chances to be successful when we came out with project A.

I was told to just stick to the facts about Destineer. I never was told to try and save KOE. But FlyXwire got so fired up, (after he got so pissed off) that I wasn't about to throw a bucket of water on him to cool him off. I was eager to have the poll done because how people answered it would help shape my confidence as to how successful project A might be. If project A worked, then the rescue of KOE might actually happen. I was very encouraged by the results.

This is the end of my paragraphs on the inside of KOE. The team has been split up and even if we are successful with project A and the revised version of KOE, it's not likely all of us will get back together again. It was a unique time. It was an honor for me to work with them all.

Going forward I hope to learn from what's happened on this forum the last few weeks. I plan on keeping the lines of communication open between myself and the members of this and other forums. But I will also use care in what I say so that I don't cause more confusion. I will also say up front that there are some things I will not talk about, simply because they are subject to change right up until the last minute of the sims development.

Thanks to all for your words of encouragement. Like the word means, your words have put courage in me.

John MacKay

aka Xeidos2

#1392433 - 08/09/04 03:31 AM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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To Trouble4U

I would recommend getting a copy of Gmax since it's free, and start making simple scenery objects and import them into FS9 or FS2k2. Once you get familar enough with the program's way of doing things, move up to simple models of aircraft. From there you can move onto airplanes with moving parts. If you start trying to make something as complicated as a fully functional aircraft on the first go around, I can promise you Gmax will kick your butt in a hurry. It's the same reason they don't strap pilot cadets into F-14's and launch them off carriers, saying "just read the manual." I recommend the MS flight sim products because they already have well established design communities and have many tutorials for helping people like yourself get started. My favorite forums are at Simviation and FFDS at http://www.aerodynamika.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi. If you run into a fellow name Felix you can tell him I sent you. He is very knowlegable and an honorable man.

To Eddie_W
If this situation were a court case and I was the judge, I'd have to excuse myself because I couldn't be impartial in making decisions about which models get accepted. You would get head of the line privileges and your models would automatically get accepted. I hate to admit this but I think your models are better than mine. Your references are much better than mine. You build them as quick as I do, if not quicker. The only advantage I have at the moment is texture maps and I have a better knowledge of what it takes to get a model game ready. We've both been through the Stottlemyer school of hard knocks.

I do hope we can find a way of tapping into the talent pool that exists in the flight sim community. There are excellent modelers all around the world. We could get our hundred planes after all, couldn't we.

#1392434 - 08/09/04 03:03 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  

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Thanks John. I've been somewhat quiet since this all came to a head, but I've been reading and I did vote in the poll. I'm hoping that KOE does get released in some form in the near future. Seems such a waste to see all of this work for nothing.

Great insight into things, btw. Hope you don't get in trouble for it, it certainly was enlightening.

Droops

#1392435 - 08/09/04 04:38 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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Xeidos2 wrote:
Quote:

He was taking 40 hours to do what I could do in two. Then his regular job got crazy and he no longer had "spare" time. I ended up having to take over the completion of the model if we were to have any hope of making the milestone deadline.
Wow, that's a huge factor. How come? Did he not know the 3D modeller he had to use?

To understand why this interests me: At work, we create furniture 3D models and I am in charge of the technical side (tools programming). We have created about one million models, so speed of modelling is simply the number one criterium.

BTW - something that might interest Trouble4u:
The company we worked with had one person for several years specialised in bathroom (we normally do kitchen). Among other things, he had to predict how much time modelling something would cost and whether we would earn money or loose it when we would make and sell it. All in all, modelling is normally a deficit area, since you can not take a fair price for it. But we can not sell our program without data, so we do it. Anyway, the other companies exists no longer, he works for us as modeller now. He was very suprised how hard it is and how long it takes to model something!

#1392436 - 08/09/04 04:53 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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Trouble4u:
Good post from Xedios2 already.

Don't underestimate it. Someone is just starting modelling for BoB. His first job is a bomb, since it is a fairly simple shape. The body is rotationally symmetric, so you can just "lathe" it. Even this is a problem for a newbie.

So, before starting, try to do chores you have to do, so that once you start, you have a lot of time per week. If you have say 2 hours per week, simply forget your idea.

Like Xedios2 said, start with something simple. Are you a skinner? If so, model something where the important part is the skin, say a simple shaped building. Maybe, before starting to model, make a historic research on some things you want to model. This is also more difficult than many people think. For example you see maybe 20 books on the Ju52 and many 3D views and tons of photos and also a lot of colour fotos from modern Jus and maybe you even have acces to one. Then you do on for the spanish civil war and find there is no publically accessible information on the special tub beneath the plane.

Next thing is the only I MIGHT dissagree with Xeidos2, namely the choice of the modeller. GMax is the child of 3DSMax, which is very powerful and complex and optimized for the person using it full time 2+ days a week. Other ideas would be AC3D, anim8tor or FSDS2. However, it is possible to learn with gMax.

Like Xeidos2 wrote, it is important you find a community that supports the chosen modeller, for example a MSFS/ CFS community/forum for gMax.

You might also choose depending on the sim you model for.

OTOH, with such an undertaking, a few punds/dollars/Euros should not decide and buying a sim, a book and possibly a modeller are all in the "affordable" range for a normal person (say 60$ or less each). I do know people that have learned modelling through the Mustang tutorials, but I would still advice on a good beginner's book to teach from the beginning.

#1392437 - 08/09/04 07:32 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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>"The HPO/400 is a massive airplane and nothing about it is simple. Finding reference material was especially hard. "

This explains why Mat recommended me for the Croix de Guerre when I came up with a photo of a model of the HP showing the intrument panel. Best I could do.

#1392438 - 08/09/04 08:26 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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I actually gave some thought to buying a copy of Simtech's model that was made for MSFS just to be able to see how they handled the rigging in the tail area of the HP O/400, since they claimed they had worked from blueprints. It costs $16. But after seeing the photo of the cockpit Ed sent (his was a photo from the real plane and not a model) and seeing a screen shot of how Simtech had done their cockpit, I didn't have much confidence that the MSFS model would be good reference.

Here's a little story. More than once Mat and I talked about the fact that there were gaps in our reference material and data base. For me it was usually what a cockpit looked like. Instrument panels were often available but a good look at the sides and back were rare. For Mat it was information about certain squadrons or pilots who only had a few items of data about them. To make things work we'd have to make our best guess in order to fill in these gaps. Our concern was that people would take our guesses and start treating them as fact. We could imagine forum debates in the future where KOE would be used to settle the arguments. While we put a tremendous amount of effort into being as historically accurate as possible it was still a flight sim. Of course we found ourselves wondering about how much we could trust the material in the references we were using. Maybe this guy who wrote up a bunch of pilot reports in 1919 fudged some of his numbers as well. Ah, the challenge of history.

#1392439 - 08/09/04 09:32 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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I have a bit of a collection of WWI models, mostly unbuilt, but these are from the new generation of models which benefit from better data, photos than the old Revell kits.

As such these can provide a great deal of data. For example, the Eduard Pfalz can provide you with all of the details, except color. What is interesting is that based on extant Pfalz DXII's, it is believed that Pfalz painted the inside of their 'wickerumpf' constructed fuselages medium grey to protect the wood from moisture. So the interior texture beneath the frame and fittings would be gray with faint diagonal lines for the wood strips going from high in back to low in front. (The outer layer of strips went the opposite and the whole molded shell was covered in linen.) Pfalz got this practise from building Roland CII's under license. (Roland CII, The first composite aircraft?) Dan Abbot says light grey-green on the Roland interior paint.

#1392440 - 08/10/04 12:29 AM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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As a 3d modeler of historic aircraft, I've gotten a hugh amount of help from the plastic model people, especially the modeling magazines from the UK. I would love to know where the artists who make the three-view drawings get their reference material. The Japaneses have some fine magazines as well but I can't read the captions. When I buy a kit, I usually leave it unmade, as it's more helpful to me that way.

#1392441 - 08/10/04 05:29 AM Re: KOE from the inside out  

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Trouble4U,
3d AC modeling is not a hobby that I would recommend to anyone that doesn't have an over abundance of patience. Just learning a program like 3d studio can take years off your life, and lighten your pocket to the tune of a couple of grand, only three of us use this monster. Most of the modelers at SWWISA use Anim8tor so there is always someone there that can answer your questions, and provide you with all the information you'll need to complete your model.

Our members include experts in almost every facet of WWI AC and they are there to help you make the best possible model. We have what seems at times an inexhaustable supply of technical information, drawings and plans available for the asking.

Stop by sometime and just try playing stump the band with Steve. If it has wings Steve has a set of plans for it in his library.

Xeidos2,
You should have tried talking to Uhlan over at SWWISA. I'm sure he had to assemble a mountain of information to complete his HP 0/400, and I have no doubt he would have benn more then willing to share.

MM

#1392442 - 08/10/04 02:32 PM Re: KOE from the inside out  
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SWWISA was an unknown resource to me at the time the HP O/400 was being built. That will not be the case going forward. Of course if Gary wants to keep a secret about what planes we're working on, I'll have to inquire about 4 or 5 different aircraft when I'm only really interested in 1. ;\)

I just saw the first three screen shots from Wings of War over at the IGN.com website. It wasn't clear to me which were from the xbox version and which were from the PC.
They definitely didn't steal our models.
It looks like it should appeal very much to the Crimson Skies crowd.

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Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
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