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#1392389 - 08/04/04 11:14 PM Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
Joined: Jan 2001
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Okay, with the latest announcement from John, KOE seems at least temporary dead, if not for ever.

I read about the supposed "EAW-WW1" Project, but have to ask...why? Why use the old EAW Engine when you could use the newer version of a similar moddable engine - the Strike Fighter Project 1 sim.

There are other games out there that should lend themself reasonable well to modding...no?

What about CFS3? Or dont we have the complete source code of Rowan's BoB?

I'm not really a part of the WW1 Simmer Community, so excuse me if my judgement is off...but I think by now you guys have reached a point where you'll need to take matters in your own hands. All that may be coming up by professional developers are MMP Games as far as I can see.

Seriously, a WW1 sim shouldn't be THAT hard to make...or? I mean, it's just maschine guns and free-falling bombs. Okay, the flight and damage models are notable different from WW2 Planes or Jets...but are people going to fly RB3D forever?

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#1392390 - 08/04/04 11:30 PM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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Toadvine Offline
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"but are people going to fly RB3D forever?"

Kinda looks that way. At least for a few more years.

#1392391 - 08/04/04 11:34 PM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  

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My guess is that for playability RB3d is better than those other sims due to the dynamic campaign and mass-multy-play. CFS sims as far as i understand are too open, meaning you'll have the body of a Dr1 with the soul of an F-16. EAW's multi player is lacking I don't know anything about BoB.

Gary Stottlemyer was on the team that gave us RB3d so I think there was some feeling that he of all people would know what it would take to raise the bar.

I can't speak for the modders but it seems that if there were a better engine to mod for WWI it would have been done by now. The many that have worked on RB3D seem to have taken it as far as it can go.

#1392392 - 08/05/04 01:19 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Well I can tell you that there is still an ember glowing in Birds of Prey, but after three plus years it's quite hard to fathom that it will ever materialize.

Perhaps we should just be happy with the sim selection available in the WW2 era, and give them our support and attention.

Frankly, I don't quite know what I'm going to do........maybe the new crop of shooters coming out soon, or perhaps Pacific Fighters...........

Maybe an extreme sport........like reintroducing myself to my wife after spending a year on this forum here! ;\)

#1392393 - 08/05/04 01:40 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:

Frankly, I don't quite know what I'm going to do........maybe the new crop of shooters coming out soon, or perhaps Pacific Fighters...........
Pacific Fighters is where I'm going. That has always been my favorite theater of war. Besides I can play the whole war as an American. Red Baron II is what sparked my WWI intrest but after 6 years it's time I move up a couple decades.

#1392394 - 08/05/04 02:02 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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MK2 Offline
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Where can I get info about Birds of Prey?


Thanks in advance.

MK2aw

#1392395 - 08/05/04 02:16 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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Blacksheep02 Offline
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Well my name isn't Blacksheep for nothing! I'll be buying pacific fighters and flying my Corsair over the clear blue sea looking for meatballs ;\)

And I'll have to wait longer for a new WWI flight sim.


-Blacksheep
The Sheeps Pen
#1392396 - 08/05/04 03:02 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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ArgonV Online tunes
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I'm trying to do just that! \:D I'm lacking talent, user-friendly tools and people tho... \:\(


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#1392397 - 08/05/04 03:07 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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franksvalli Offline
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LOL FlyX.

Also - I think you can start up flybgone.com now \:\) \:\) \:\)

WWI Sim Lottery Fund!! Hehe. \:D

EDIT - MK2: you can find info on Birds of Prey at WingsWithWires.com . A pretty hopeless situation there too - notice that they haven't updated their webpage for a year and a half \:\( .

-FranksValli

#1392398 - 08/05/04 03:09 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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Hentzau Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by MK2:
Where can I get info about Birds of Prey?


Thanks in advance.

MK2aw
http://www.wingswithwires.com If you're really interested in funding a WWI sim I'll send you SDOE and a copy of ArgonV's FS-WWI so you can see the openplane engine that Bird's of Prey plans to use. seegr at earthlink dot net

#1392399 - 08/05/04 08:58 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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Tailgunner Offline
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Enough with the doom and gloom!

Dear God ;\) WW1 sim forums without FlyXwire....thats like having a Tower of London with no Ravens! I prescribe 3 days of hard 'Photoshopping' painting lozenge camoflage till you see sense!

As far as other sims go, the SDOE WW1 mod is a pretty good example of what can be achieved...and what can't! The tools to mod SDOE are actually pretty good. Argon...most mods don't have tools that functional! The Openplane engine is pretty f;exible in the way it works, and operates uniquely ( i believe) on a proper physics level. No FM tables....It's amazingly done. To make things WW1 was possible. With the source code available ( buty not open to all ) it has been possible to add some of the things the basic game lacked, but there are still things that haven't been done. Engine torque, modelling of primitive ignition systems, inverted fuel cutoff from gravity tanks, that sort of thing. There is no dynamic campaign. The terrain is crude and limited. This last is made worse by the fact that the terrain mesh is a full 3D mesh loaded into the engine at startup. Each tile has only 1 level of detail since you can't easily swap them without 'seeing the joins' and any attempts at adding real detail bring the gameplay to a grinding halt. As I said...a classic example of what can be achieved...and the basic limitations of any mod - the original game!

I have looked at many options before, to see if there is a 'next generation' WW1 mod that can be done. Another game engine that will support all the things we need, and have reached LOTS of conclusions!

1) CFS3. Has the ability to make planes in the detail we want. A full toolkit is available plus a reasonable level of experience on modelling flight characteristics ( 1% ) Crucial that... anyone can build a WW1 plane, but it has to fly like one or we are all wasting our time!!!! But, there are several well known problems with CFS3. It is not well regulated in terms of multiplayer, has an awful reputation for 'immature' people flying online, and the terrain stinks to high heaven. It also needs a LOT of PC power to run

2) Strike Fighters P1. Interesting in terms of the level of detail the planes can have. Not sure about the FM side though. There have been a lot of 'concerns' aired with varying levels of bias around the WW2 planes that have been made for the sim. It's a sandbox sim ( and I don't JUST mean the stock terrain! ) but lacks damage modelling, and has a heavy focus on missiles over guns. I could not be confident that this would be much more than a visual dress up with some guessed FM's that won't hit the money for WW1 fans. Shame. Hope I am wrong.

EAW. Old...if someone wants to do it, great for them. But not really a step forward. Graphically, it isn't going to look much better than RB. It's a fun challenge for someone who wants to mod EAW.

IL2. Please Oleg make a WW1 sim. I promise to make loads of high detailed planes in Max and present them gift-wrapped at your door. Please don't ignore me.... Oh..you are committed to PF for this year, then BOB and the new flightsim engine for 2005 / 2006. Then some add-ons and expansions to that over 2007. Realistically, you have a better chance of finding the Holy Grail. This is just a 'grail shaped beacon' lit by naughty Zoot...bad Zoot ;\)

BOB. This one interests me. Not much for online play, but potential for offline. Legacy links to FCG may help, and the BDG team are working on some graphical enhancements. IF the team chose to work towards that goal, something could be done. There would be a mountain to climb though. And I don't mean a sunday afternoon hill waklking kind of mountain. We are talking ice-axes and cramp-ons here...

Now...I don't know if I have missed out any flightsim engines here .. P*** Off you at the back who just shouted 'Jane's Attack Squadron' ... you should be ashamed of yourself ;\)

What I am trying to say here in a rambling round about way is that there is alwys a lot of hard-work, heartache and grief making a mod. At the end of it, though, you have a curious beast 9 times out of ten. Something that doesn't appeal to people who don't have the game already, and that doesn't appeal to a the bulk of the people that DO buy the game...coz they bought it for the stock content! Hence Argon's shortage of manpower.

Solve that problem FIRST before even thinking about what sim engine to base a mod around!


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#1392400 - 08/05/04 10:08 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
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FinnN Offline
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It's strange, but I think the very success of the various RB3D and SDOE add-ons has limited any moves to another newer sim. Sims become obsolete fairly slowly compared to most types of games and with no sequel to either one and people have gravitated to where the 'action' is when it comes to development.

Personally I think the contenders for a WW1 sim (now that KOE seems to have finally been laid to rest sadly) are:

IL2 - closed sim so would need Oleg's support. I've never thought that was likely and there's no evidence that that will change.

CFS3 - so close to being a classic in so many ways, but out of the box it has a lot of issues mostly to do with performance. On the plus side most of the basic problems seem to have been addressed with a combination of mods and computer power catching up. The game engine is incredibly good at dealing with high poly count models (although it can be hard to tell). It also has a pretty good dynamic campaign engine which in many ways is better suited to a WW1 scenario that then WW2/Luft'46 one in the box. AFAIK it doesn't have the big security issues that CFS2 had for online play, so although you could have a Camel with a Tornado engine that sort of thing can be excluded. I'm probably a bit biased, but I'd say that it's probably the best bet all things considered if enough people were interested. Biggest downside is that the SDK docs and utilities are incomplete and probably never will be without support from Microsoft, and with all the rumours that the CFS series has been shelved for the forseeable future that looks unlikely. I'd guess that most things will be eventually worked out...but by then something better may have come out.

FS2004 - would be almost perfect, if you could shoot or bomb things. You can't, so that's out the window.

Strike Fighters - personally I think the jump between modern and WW1 is too great and it looks to me like the game engine is optimised for high speed flight and at low speeds things don't really look that much better than SDOE IMHO.

BoB - although it comes with the source code and so on, I suspect that might be too much to take on for it to be a realisticly developed into a WW1 sim.

#1392401 - 08/05/04 10:44 AM Re: Why dont you guys mod yourself a WW1 sim?  
Joined: Jan 2001
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
RSColonel_131st  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
From an external POV, sometimes it strikes me that people are not willing to give up RB3D yet anyway.

Which I can partially understand, because you want the multiplayer and the dynamic campaign.

I think the engines would be there...CFS3 perhabs being the best bet, could do bombers as well - heck, even a Zeppelin if you feel like it. Also has a decent interfance and campaign engine.

But as long as people remain so dedicated to RB there are never going to be enough hands to make you guys a new sim-mod.

And I sincerely doupt that the industry will put forward an usefull single-player/free multiplayer WW1 sim within the next 5 years.


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