Ok let's stop whining.

Read this thread. let's do something about this....


http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=41;t=026034#000005

We are not whinning here. We are trying to get something going to resurect KOE.

As I posted on the EAW forum.

You may be able to get the engine from KOE to use as well as you might want to consider IL2's engine or even LOMACs.

EAW's engine is just too old IMHO to do the up to date gee whiz things you would want from a newer flight simulator.

If you've got the dough, finance KoE. I don't think people would leave modded RB3D or FS-WWI for an EAW based sim. The RB3D guys would get panning, but give up better MMP and the better campaign. FS-WWI guys would give up better aircraft graphics and being gunners.

A WW1 mod for EAW would be great fun...for those who want another WW1 MOD. What we were hoping for from KOE was a whole nw WW1 SIM.

Having worked on a WW1 mod before, I know the limitations of modding. You are taking a flightsim engine that is geared to a certain type of performance envelope, and making it work in a totally different way. WW1 planes use high-lift airfoils, run at very slow speeds, and have all sorts of complex engine management issues that WW2 planes just did not have. It is very hard to make these things happen in a sim that wasn't designed for it.

Graphically.... EAW is ugly by modern standards. No offense.... but you have to accept that there are tough limitation on the number of polygons any plane can have. Can you support 3000 poly planes ? A modern sim is going to need to get close to that figure to be taken seriousely. 2500 is expected.

Then, there is the number of plane types and skins. EAW has limited 'slots' available for planes. Can you expand on that ? German planes were painted in multi colours, so you will want the opportunity to have multiple skins for a single plane type flying at teh same time. Can you do that? Plane markings?

Has the EAW source code been made public? If it hasn't you cannot change any of the code unless you pay out for a licence to do so. That won't necessarily be easy or cheap, even for an old sim.

Then, there are the practicalities of a flightsim... erad some of Osram's posts on the subject of flightsim programming. He KNOWS! Battle of Britain...a sim from the same period... has 600,000 lines of code in it's flightsim engine! A good programmer is going to spend months just working out how it all fits together!

This is why there is so little 'licensing' of old flightsim engines. It just isn't commercially viable.

In fact, the only case I know of was the Birds of Prey guys licensing Openplane. Even then, their lead programmer had access to the source code long before the project began.

Far better to throw your weight behind a custom built sim if you want a commercial standard product! In the meantime, there is no reason why you can't mod EAW! If you can gather the talent and produce a good project you will create something that will give the EAAW community a lot of pleasure. I wish you luck

If you really want to stick with EAW-Territory, then use Strike Fighters Project 1 as a modding base. At least that has better graphics, better cockpits, better everything.

Yes, I think the Il-2 way or the SFP1 is the only viable platform to do a good WW1 add-on (online/offline) The targetware engine is only online, so i would pass...

If we got serious about it and 10-20 modellers made one single plane, in 3 months we could give them to Oleg and try our luck to it. However, modellers seem to be least interested... the less modellers, the less it is achieved. If 10 would work seriously on it, more would join, specially after PF is out of the way.

I think a (very) major factor is that flight sim code is very rarely adequately documented and commented. And if it's the result of several products (BOB shares code with Mig ALley, Flying Corps and Dawn Patrol, if not even further back in Rowan's history) a lot of it is based on old code, some of which can get very legacy indeed!

I think it'd be fun to have a go at an open source project, though. One that permits its use in commercial products. Might find itself getting used all over the place as a kick-start towards a new sim.

Rob

You need something where you are able to get the features in the exe that you need. Also it would be bad to just have planes inside that look like WWI planes and have the speed of WWI planes. You wat WWI specific physics models, campaign, Quickshot features, damage and weapons models etc.

Pacific Fighters is possible since Oleg's crew code the features that Ilja needs. Even going from one WWII theater to another you need coding. Pacific figthers without carriers would have been a flop.

So, you can see whether you can get onto "one wavelength" with Oleg. You can try the same with TK. TK did not reply to Jamm0r regarding free source code improvements. But maybe you can get a contract where you pay him for implementing certain features.

There is also the BoB/MA engine. You would have to pay to be able to use it for profit, but there are community members around that know how to use it.

Do not buy an engine before you know people will be able to change it.

Then there is Flight Gear. It is GPLed, which means you do not pay money for it, but by giving back your (coding) work. Several universities use it professionally (including saving lives). Also, Curt, their boss, used it commercially a few times as well.

And of course KoE is another big contender. If you have the money, speak to them and find out a) the legal status b) exactly where they are and how much is to be done c) whether you can get back any coder(s) d) whether coders can get into the current code d) whether chances are it will make money.

Imho EAW is a no go. 2d ´pits and a serious rudder bug which afaik was never corrected.

Well, you got a guy here who has the cash. You got guys here who have the skills for modeling.

Can it really be impossiple to create a sim out of this?

If 'money is no issue' then I'd also say forget EAW, whilst great in its day (way better than CFS1 IMO) it's an archaic relic now. Either put the money into a new team for KOE which would give you an actual sim designed for WW1, or failing that into a commercial mod for CFS3 or Project One or whatever. Certainly not a game that's now two generations old.

Just as an example, here's a screenshot from FS2004:



And yes that city (Venice) is in 3D and looks good from any altitude. Lower down:



And higher up:



Wouldn't you rather have a WW1 sim that looked at least a little like that rather than something from 5+ years ago?

Shame you can't bomb things in FS2004 ;-)

I think we all would - if we can free the code and get the investment then I would say it was a definate goer - if not....

MK2 - just to stick my oar in, if I were you I'd look at FlightGear or BOB. FlightGear's the easier, it's already available for commercial use by anyone, no licensing issues really.

BOB you'd be back in the usual position of negotiating with someone who is probably not interested in the complications of working out a license. And then fighting through the code... if you do go that way, employ Osram!

Third alternative is start again from scratch. Have you seen my proposal? I'm thinking of adding to it - maybe the idea at first should be to produce a really flexible open source flight sim engine in Java, with free input from whoever - perhaps emply at most 2 people as the core of the team but look to gain from the experience of anyone else out there who is into open source stuff and flight simulation.

Any chance of a combat flight sim based on FS2004? Those pictures look amazing, just amazing.

I was wondering if it would be worth polishing up old code such as that used in Fighter Squadron and using that - after all it worked for a little game called Half Life........?

I really think that unless you are really, really confident of negotiating use of commercial code you're better off starting from scratch or going open source.

The only exception for me would be BOB, because the code's already out there. That means:

a) You can start developing something now to check it's on the cards before needing to talk to anyone
b) There are community members like Osram out there who already know their way around the code and are keen on flight sims, so might be employable
c) Since they were prepared to go to the effort of releasing the code in the first place, there's at least some chance that they will be amenable to licensing its use in a commercial product.

I just wish that Activision/Parsoft would release the code to us! Then we could have the greatest flight sim ever! What are they going to do? Hold the code forever and let it rot. They are never making another flight sim as complex as SDOE ever again, that's for sure.

I thought Parsoft had effectively released the code?!!!!!!!

Hmm - OpenPlane's available for license isn't it, rather than freely available? Still, add that to the list as another definite positive. OpenPlane, FLightGear, BOB or start from sratch seem the best possibilities if you're looking to make a commercial sim, with BOB the least attractive as it's not set up for commercial license yet.