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#1392287 - 08/04/04 05:35 AM New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Ok let's stop whining.

Read this thread. let's do something about this....


http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=41;t=026034#000005

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1392288 - 08/04/04 05:56 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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We are not whinning here. We are trying to get something going to resurect KOE.

#1392289 - 08/04/04 07:00 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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As I posted on the EAW forum.

You may be able to get the engine from KOE to use as well as you might want to consider IL2's engine or even LOMACs.

EAW's engine is just too old IMHO to do the up to date gee whiz things you would want from a newer flight simulator.


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#1392290 - 08/04/04 08:00 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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If you've got the dough, finance KoE. I don't think people would leave modded RB3D or FS-WWI for an EAW based sim. The RB3D guys would get panning, but give up better MMP and the better campaign. FS-WWI guys would give up better aircraft graphics and being gunners.

#1392291 - 08/04/04 08:41 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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A WW1 mod for EAW would be great fun...for those who want another WW1 MOD. What we were hoping for from KOE was a whole nw WW1 SIM.

Having worked on a WW1 mod before, I know the limitations of modding. You are taking a flightsim engine that is geared to a certain type of performance envelope, and making it work in a totally different way. WW1 planes use high-lift airfoils, run at very slow speeds, and have all sorts of complex engine management issues that WW2 planes just did not have. It is very hard to make these things happen in a sim that wasn't designed for it.

Graphically.... EAW is ugly by modern standards. No offense.... but you have to accept that there are tough limitation on the number of polygons any plane can have. Can you support 3000 poly planes ? A modern sim is going to need to get close to that figure to be taken seriousely. 2500 is expected.

Then, there is the number of plane types and skins. EAW has limited 'slots' available for planes. Can you expand on that ? German planes were painted in multi colours, so you will want the opportunity to have multiple skins for a single plane type flying at teh same time. Can you do that? Plane markings?

Has the EAW source code been made public? If it hasn't you cannot change any of the code unless you pay out for a licence to do so. That won't necessarily be easy or cheap, even for an old sim.

Then, there are the practicalities of a flightsim... erad some of Osram's posts on the subject of flightsim programming. He KNOWS! Battle of Britain...a sim from the same period... has 600,000 lines of code in it's flightsim engine! A good programmer is going to spend months just working out how it all fits together!

This is why there is so little 'licensing' of old flightsim engines. It just isn't commercially viable.

In fact, the only case I know of was the Birds of Prey guys licensing Openplane. Even then, their lead programmer had access to the source code long before the project began.

Far better to throw your weight behind a custom built sim if you want a commercial standard product! In the meantime, there is no reason why you can't mod EAW! If you can gather the talent and produce a good project you will create something that will give the EAAW community a lot of pleasure. I wish you luck \:\)


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#1392292 - 08/04/04 11:39 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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If you really want to stick with EAW-Territory, then use Strike Fighters Project 1 as a modding base. At least that has better graphics, better cockpits, better everything.

#1392293 - 08/04/04 12:22 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  

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Yes, I think the Il-2 way or the SFP1 is the only viable platform to do a good WW1 add-on (online/offline) The targetware engine is only online, so i would pass...

If we got serious about it and 10-20 modellers made one single plane, in 3 months we could give them to Oleg and try our luck to it. However, modellers seem to be least interested... the less modellers, the less it is achieved. If 10 would work seriously on it, more would join, specially after PF is out of the way.

#1392294 - 08/04/04 01:11 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Quote:
This is why there is so little 'licensing' of old flightsim engines. It just isn't commercially viable.
I think a (very) major factor is that flight sim code is very rarely adequately documented and commented. And if it's the result of several products (BOB shares code with Mig ALley, Flying Corps and Dawn Patrol, if not even further back in Rowan's history) a lot of it is based on old code, some of which can get very legacy indeed!

I think it'd be fun to have a go at an open source project, though. One that permits its use in commercial products. Might find itself getting used all over the place as a kick-start towards a new sim.

Rob

#1392295 - 08/04/04 01:25 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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You need something where you are able to get the features in the exe that you need. Also it would be bad to just have planes inside that look like WWI planes and have the speed of WWI planes. You wat WWI specific physics models, campaign, Quickshot features, damage and weapons models etc.

Pacific Fighters is possible since Oleg's crew code the features that Ilja needs. Even going from one WWII theater to another you need coding. Pacific figthers without carriers would have been a flop.

So, you can see whether you can get onto "one wavelength" with Oleg. You can try the same with TK. TK did not reply to Jamm0r regarding free source code improvements. But maybe you can get a contract where you pay him for implementing certain features.

There is also the BoB/MA engine. You would have to pay to be able to use it for profit, but there are community members around that know how to use it.

Do not buy an engine before you know people will be able to change it.

Then there is Flight Gear. It is GPLed, which means you do not pay money for it, but by giving back your (coding) work. Several universities use it professionally (including saving lives). Also, Curt, their boss, used it commercially a few times as well.

And of course KoE is another big contender. If you have the money, speak to them and find out a) the legal status b) exactly where they are and how much is to be done c) whether you can get back any coder(s) d) whether coders can get into the current code d) whether chances are it will make money.

#1392296 - 08/05/04 12:29 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Imho EAW is a no go. 2d ´pits and a serious rudder bug which afaik was never corrected.


Jens C. Lindblad


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#1392297 - 08/05/04 01:03 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Well, you got a guy here who has the cash. You got guys here who have the skills for modeling.

Can it really be impossiple to create a sim out of this?

#1392298 - 08/05/04 01:26 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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If 'money is no issue' then I'd also say forget EAW, whilst great in its day (way better than CFS1 IMO) it's an archaic relic now. Either put the money into a new team for KOE which would give you an actual sim designed for WW1, or failing that into a commercial mod for CFS3 or Project One or whatever. Certainly not a game that's now two generations old.

Just as an example, here's a screenshot from FS2004:



And yes that city (Venice) is in 3D and looks good from any altitude. Lower down:



And higher up:



Wouldn't you rather have a WW1 sim that looked at least a little like that rather than something from 5+ years ago?

Shame you can't bomb things in FS2004 ;-)

#1392299 - 08/05/04 01:53 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I think we all would - if we can free the code and get the investment then I would say it was a definate goer - if not....


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#1392300 - 08/05/04 01:54 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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MK2 - just to stick my oar in, if I were you I'd look at FlightGear or BOB. FlightGear's the easier, it's already available for commercial use by anyone, no licensing issues really.

BOB you'd be back in the usual position of negotiating with someone who is probably not interested in the complications of working out a license. And then fighting through the code... if you do go that way, employ Osram!

Third alternative is start again from scratch. Have you seen my proposal? I'm thinking of adding to it - maybe the idea at first should be to produce a really flexible open source flight sim engine in Java, with free input from whoever - perhaps emply at most 2 people as the core of the team but look to gain from the experience of anyone else out there who is into open source stuff and flight simulation.

#1392301 - 08/05/04 02:13 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Any chance of a combat flight sim based on FS2004? Those pictures look amazing, just amazing.

#1392302 - 08/05/04 02:31 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I was wondering if it would be worth polishing up old code such as that used in Fighter Squadron and using that - after all it worked for a little game called Half Life........?


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#1392303 - 08/05/04 02:34 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I really think that unless you are really, really confident of negotiating use of commercial code you're better off starting from scratch or going open source.

The only exception for me would be BOB, because the code's already out there. That means:

a) You can start developing something now to check it's on the cards before needing to talk to anyone
b) There are community members like Osram out there who already know their way around the code and are keen on flight sims, so might be employable
c) Since they were prepared to go to the effort of releasing the code in the first place, there's at least some chance that they will be amenable to licensing its use in a commercial product.

#1392304 - 08/05/04 02:37 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zander:
I was wondering if it would be worth polishing up old code such as that used in Fighter Squadron and using that - after all it worked for a little game called Half Life........?
I just wish that Activision/Parsoft would release the code to us! Then we could have the greatest flight sim ever! What are they going to do? Hold the code forever and let it rot. They are never making another flight sim as complex as SDOE ever again, that's for sure.


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#1392305 - 08/05/04 02:45 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I thought Parsoft had effectively released the code?!!!!!!!


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#1392306 - 08/05/04 02:57 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Hmm - OpenPlane's available for license isn't it, rather than freely available? Still, add that to the list as another definite positive. OpenPlane, FLightGear, BOB or start from sratch seem the best possibilities if you're looking to make a commercial sim, with BOB the least attractive as it's not set up for commercial license yet.

#1392307 - 08/05/04 03:02 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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PArsoft made the code available to a VERY small number of people to allow them to work on patches and bugfixes. There were strict conditions as to what they could or could not do, restrictins around how the code could be released, and no opportunity to commercially exploit the code or release a derivative game.

Wings with Wires cut a deal to develop an Openplane based sim, but I don't know the details of that. Best ask SV over at the WWW site if you seriousely want to pursue that angle.

Otherwise, Argon and co can make a mod with SDOE, but could enver release a full WW1 game based on SDOE. It could only EVER be a mod. IF you wanted to re-vitalise old code, then that could be a good bet. You would need a programmer able to fix all the things that need fixing...and sort out a decent terrain rendering system..but the Openplane engine hidden in SDOE is a good solid base.

Oh..and any attempt to release an OP based sim through the backdoor would result in Activision sueing your backside, and an end to any further SDOE patching....


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#1392308 - 08/05/04 03:11 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I was hoping TG or someone would post with more info then I. As he mentioned we do have a coder who releases patches for us regularly, and that's great! But we can't get the code publically released so it can be molded into a new sim.

So SDOE can be worked on to a certain degree and thats it. I really don't know why Activision has a death grip on that code. I can't see them ever revisiting realistic flight sims ever again! So I guess they'd rather have the code collect dust and make no money, then release to us. It's almost like having the cure for cancer and just locking it in a vault forever! Well OK that's not exactly the same thing lol, but you get the picture.


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#1392309 - 08/05/04 03:25 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Wuld have thought they would release it (for a fee) as no money still to be made marketing the sim (been deleted as a budget label). Surely a quiet work would be possible to see what sums are involved?


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#1392310 - 08/05/04 03:27 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Well, the Wings with Wires example shows you can get it released, for a fee, if you want to make a sim with it.

#1392311 - 08/05/04 03:28 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Do we know who it is who has the say regarding this? I strongly suggest a post in the FS:SDOE board or a phone call to the people involved would be an idea?


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#1392312 - 08/05/04 03:32 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Zander, some guys in the SDOE community had a get together with the Activision people a while back I beleive. I made a post about this topic in an SDOE squadron message board because I think some people there were involved in the presentation. Perhaps they'll read it and post an answer for you here.

But the short answer was that Activision basically turned them down \:\(


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#1392313 - 08/05/04 03:33 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Zander, to do it you'll need to form a company, as WIngs with WIres did. And it won't be available to everyone - only the company itself will be able to use it, and I'm sure they'll be under strict instructions in the license not to distribute the code.

#1392314 - 08/05/04 03:39 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mahoney:
Any chance of a combat flight sim based on FS2004? Those pictures look amazing, just amazing.
Theoretically, yes. FS2004 has the ability to have extra bits plugged into it (the modules folder) and there's a few modules that are extremely widely used already (mostly to do with weather) and plenty of add-ons that in turn make use of these modules. I'd assume that a module could be written that would take in the position of the aircraft/ground objects and interact with them. Unfortunately I'd imagine for such a complex area (plane AI, collision detection, etc, etc) it would have a hefty framerate hit. FS2004 is nothing if not a resource hog already. And that's before even thinking of something like online play, etc. So in practice it has to be no I think.

With the right add-ons though FS2004 is by far the best looking sim at the moment. There's plenty of good freeware planes, although most of the best add-on sceneries are commercial (presumably because of the cost of purchasing the source material).

#1392315 - 08/05/04 03:50 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Fair enough guys - it just seems a terrible waste of so much talent to have all these willing coders and not being able to release code. I am aware of the difficulties in obtaning copyrighted code (I work for a law firm and a good mate of mine is Sony's leading barrister over here in the UK so have heard the war stories!) - even so it seems a pity not tobe able to develop and release code when it could more than do the job we are asking of it!


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#1392316 - 08/05/04 04:08 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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It really is a shame Zander. It's quite possible that the Open Plane code is currently the most advanced in existance. But without having it, or being able to alter it properly, it will never live up to its potential.


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#1392317 - 08/05/04 04:15 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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It may still be worth trying to get in touch with Parsoft? Apart frmo anything Wings with Wires has been around for a long time so they may have got a little more lax in their old age?! ;\)


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#1392318 - 08/05/04 04:55 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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As far as I recall, the approach to Activision was looked at as a 'bunch of enthusiasts' kind of thing. Not fair to the people invovled...but thats part of the problem.

Forming a company, business plan, funding etc. would be an essential to get things on a professional footing.

There was also, as I recall, a bit of a grey area as to who actually OWNED the rights to the code, and who could legally license it. Parsoft don't exist anymore ( I think ) and Activision may not have the authority to allow access to the source.

Those with an existing right to the code have never had that agreement rescinded, so they were unaffected.

If people were serious about using Openplane as a sim base, they need to be aware of a few things.

1) SDOE was a bug laden lash up of a game
2) Openplane was the gem of a physics based engine that lay at the core of SDOE

It's Openplane you want to license, NOT sdoe! I would suggest you get together a 'company'

Next, approach SV over at Wings With Wires. Find out who they approached and what sort of presentation you would need to convince the legal eagles that you have the ability to fund the project and produce a viable project

Then, start looking at ways to fund the whole thing. If the code is made available, you will NOT get it for free.

You will need a good programmer, and someone who will be able to write a game around the basic sim engine.

Bear in mind, also, that there is ALREADY a sim based on the OP engine aimed at WW1 aviation. IF you aim straight at that target, you may find yourself stepping on peoples toes.....so be careful, and be clear EXACTLY what you intend to build, and understand what it will take to achieve this.


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#1392319 - 08/05/04 05:07 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Tail which firm do you work for?!


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#1392320 - 08/05/04 05:13 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Tailgunner's post is bang on the money. However, my heart sank when I read this:

Quote:
Originally posted by Tailgunner:
There was also, as I recall, a bit of a grey area as to who actually OWNED the rights to the code, and who could legally license it. Parsoft don't exist anymore ( I think ) and Activision may not have the authority to allow access to the source.
Sounds like plenty of potential for another totally abortive effort to get rights there.

The amount of code knocking around in no fit state to be released and with no-one really knowing who owns the rights is astonishing.

Rob

#1392321 - 08/05/04 08:48 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Zander..I work for the UK Post Office \:D


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#1392322 - 08/05/04 08:58 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Yeah I'm trying to get myself access to SDOE's code so I can further improve FS-WWI. So far it looks like it's NOT going to happen any time soon. \:\(

I AM however working very close with VDU to get a few WWI flight modeling aspects implimented like gyro-rotary torque and negative G fuel cut out. \:D

Also, we've got a totally new WWI GUI that's 90% complete and a way to get rid of all of the WW2 aspects from SDOE.

All I'm waiting for now is Open Plane Studio 2.0 to get fully released and realized so I can have a MUCH more efficent tool to work with and then maybe we can get some better terrain action happening! \:D


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#1392323 - 08/05/04 09:10 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I still think SDOE would be a really really good candidate for the next big thing in WWI. We have tools to work with (Tho not perfect) a decent sized community, some great talent, and with enough effort put it we could have better terrain and game features. We already have 40+ WWI aircraft to fly around in, decent missions, a mission editor for the end-user and decent looking effects and hi-res skins all with a nice physics engine to boot! In all honesty there's not a WHOLE lot that needs doing:

1. Better tools (In-progress, tho the ones we have now work for the most part)
2. WWI specific physics IE gyroscopic torque at the like (In-progress)
3. Better terrain
4. Better AI
5. Dynamic campaign (We have mission sets which do emmerse you. And you CAN play each mission from a different point of view)

What we really need are more coders to help VDU out. Then we could REALLY get the ball rolling!


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#1392324 - 08/05/04 09:54 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Xanty:
Yes, I think the Il-2 way or the SFP1 is the only viable platform to do a good WW1 add-on (online/offline) The targetware engine is only online, so i would pass...

If we got serious about it and 10-20 modellers made one single plane, in 3 months we could give them to Oleg and try our luck to it. However, modellers seem to be least interested... the less modellers, the less it is achieved. If 10 would work seriously on it, more would join, specially after PF is out of the way.
Xanty, it sure would be nice to see some of the work you did for the WW1 Project posted over at Netwings again. Did you ever finish that bird?

#1392325 - 08/05/04 10:28 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Argon may be right
FS-WW1 is probably the closest to done ww1 sim
available. Consider adding better sounds to your list tho. And I worry about mmp coding.
But the planes looks great!! and I don't think the terrain is bad. Plus remember all the ww1 vehicles and such that have been made.


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#1392326 - 08/05/04 11:03 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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One thing about extra coders for SDOE WW1 .... are they ALLOWED to work on the code? Would VDU be breaching the conditions under which he is allowed code access if he passes copies of the source to another programmer?

Anyway....thats a moot point.

There are some fundamental things that hold back further development of SDOE and they are probably going to need a lot of code effort to do.

1) AI ... the AI is not well geared to WW1 planes. It was always a 'turn on your tail' 1 trick pony.
2) Terrain. The way the terrain is rendered prevents detail. Look at, for example, the way UT2004 does terrain. IT is converting a greyscale heightmap to polygons on the 'fly'. The closer the heightmap points are to the viewer, the higher the detail. It pulls fewer points further out. This gives a seamless reduction in polycount over distance. It also supports multi-layer textures for added detail. You can't get close to that with a fixed single lod mesh object terrain.
3) Campaign. SDOE fixed missions are only going to get you so far. There is no true dynammic campaign and no way to roll resources over into successive missions. There are no random 'quick shot' missions either. Scripted missions date.
4) Pilot code is pooched! I remember trying to make a pilot that 'slumped' to give a visual clue to pilot kill. No joy. Plus they keep jumping!

These are things that only code access will cure. At the moment, there is only 1 guy with code access, and he is busy. VERY busy. Busy on some very interesting stuff, but it's not SDOE \:\(


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#1392327 - 08/05/04 11:54 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  

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Just to clear things up a little (I hope.)

Activision owns the code and the art to only the UI. And of course the trademark. The primary financial backers of Parsoft (I never met them) still own the rights to the sim itself. Technically, even Inertia Games was a licensee of the code for RC Simulator.

#1392328 - 08/05/04 11:58 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Yes, but these things are A LOT easier to do than say, build a whole new WWI sim from the ground up. ;\) I'd rather have to spend 50 man hours revamping the terrain engine and be nearly done with the to-list, than spend 50 man hours on just getting a GUI interface working and still have the rendering engine, AI, aircraft models, physics engine and graphical artwork to go...

The AI isnt that bad any more actually... I've made a TON of adjustments to the parameters in the SM files regarding min and max airspeeds, landing speeds and dive speeds. So the AI is still passable...

Sounds, yes we need some new engine sounds for sure! I've gotten some better ones in, but more are needed. FlyXwire was working on some, but he soon found out it's a pretty tough and time consuming thing to do... You have to get a good sound from a relatively low-quality wav that doesnt suck CPU and sound card power without a reverb at the right volume. Very doable (All of the current WWI sounds were edited by me in the end and a few others) but not really fun. ;\)

I agree tho Tailgunner, VDU is one very busy man. We need more with access to the source code! A LOT could be accomplished. Heck, just look was VDU was able to do, by himself over the course of 3 years. He was one man with EXTREMELY limited time and resources. If we had say 5 people on the job, we could cut that down considerably and get a fully functional WWI mod out in say 1 1/2 years. You may not have the fancy effects and polish at first, but it will be an enjoyable experience with good artwork and 3d modeling with many options you can expore that you simply can't do in RB3d. I don't think people would complain much about how there's no light glow or multi-textured transparent flame effects.


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#1392329 - 08/06/04 12:12 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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On a further note, we also have to consider one thing: Does Activision still care what happens to SDOE? As long as the community doesnt start yeilding a profit do you really think they will give a rats arse if VDU was to give others access to the source code on a personal private basis for example? I think not. I've seen mod communities hack the likes of EAW and WW2 Fighters with no backlash from the developers or publishers. Why are the SDOE community members so damned cautious about this aspect? Seems silly to me really... As long as we dont try to sell this mod commercially, what the **** could happen? It's not like we are hacking the Open Plane code, that's already open to exploration. We just want to tweak SDOE specific things like AI code and renderers...

So maybe if we were to "try" Activision in this respect. I have the WWI GUI mod almost ready to go that was pretty much hacked from the begining from a Resource explorer and a hex editor. It's in EXE form (App.exe to be exact, yes the same EXE the SDOE Patch uses) and when I release it we will see what Activision says... If no action is noticed, I think we should seriously start thinking about this.


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#1392330 - 08/06/04 12:13 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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As Daze mentioned, SDOE has poor-performing online network coding. In my opinion THIS is what's really holding FS-WWI back now.

The models are fine.

The textures are fine.

The terrain is fine.

The flight models are better than they've ever been, and competitive.

The AI is sub-par for WWI agility fighters, but for online action........heck there's AI!!! There's also co-op mission multiplay, but.........

There's severe contrainst because of the lack of servers, and the network coding stifles multiplay.

It's the online component which satisfies peoples need to group and compete together, and this is where SDOE/FS-WWI needs improvements, but that's quite beyond reach!

#1392331 - 08/06/04 12:19 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I wouldnt say quite beyond reach FlyXwire. VDU has the ability to change the network coding. This is FAR more of a chance than say EAW or WW2 Fighters has. He simply can't do it all in a timely fashion. We also have Hyperlobby support. This IMO makes up for A LOT. It's A LOT easier now to get together on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon than it was before.

The multiplayer code needs some revamping, true... We just need to get off our butts and see if we can get some source from VDU! \:D


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#1392332 - 08/06/04 12:48 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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It's coding that seems to be the bottleneck everywhere we turn!

Modeler's make their models. Texturers do their thing. Others import, and do flight modeling improvemments, and tweak this or that, but we need programmers (and of course open-source code, or NA clearances), and programmers are so busy and in demand by industry that they have little time for hobby interest, let alone their own lives these days.

Mods groups pick around the periphery, while they wait for the core coding (from which all possibilities come) to catch up with everything else.

I've got no answers...............everything hinges on the code, and being able to get at it, and with those who can write it.

Show me the programmers that have the time, the clearance, and the will, because it's they that hold the key to the palace!

#1392333 - 08/06/04 04:03 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Well I for one know some Java and C++ and I'm quick to learn! \:D True tho, programmers are in great need in the modding community. \:\(


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#1392334 - 08/06/04 09:42 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Guys - surely whoever it was who released those patches for SDOE - he was one of the original team and surely he would know who to contact and also what the current state of play would be. I am a lawyer and would be happy to have a word regarding getting the wheels in motion to see about the code if I had a contact name?


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#1392335 - 08/06/04 10:20 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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WOW... Mighty \:D Thats a BIG name from past. You can believe what he says about who owns the rights to what! Thanks for clearing that one up \:D

OK... So, Activision own the rights to the UI ... not the Openplane Engine. Anyone looking to use that for a new sim can, at least, look beyond Activision. I don't know who funded Parsoft, but finding that out would be step number one.

My dream....

A new WW1 sim based around the OP engine, with new terrain, a brushed up renderer and a dynamic campaign \:D

p.s. So far as I know, VDU was never a part of the original team. A couple of people were given controlled access to the source to develop patches and fix / finish off aspects of the game. This allowed the PArsoft team to move on to develop other things ( RC Sim ) whilst still satisfying the customer need for patches. Quite an enlightened concept really!


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#1392336 - 08/06/04 12:20 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  

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Just to clarify things a little...

Indeed, I have never been part of the original team who produced SDOE.

I do not want to sound harsh but...
Do not count on me for releasing the SDOE source code. I have signed a NDA and PERSONALLY engaged my responsability into it, which means if any legal procedure is engaged, it risks to affect myself and my familly.

I agree that the risk is probably just about non-existent, but the possibility is there, and that's enough for me.

I would be delighted if whoever owns the original code releases it (as Brian Kegels did for the source code of the network interface with Activision's blessing). In such case I'll be glad to release all the modifications and fixes done to it.

Cheers,

Vincent

#1392337 - 08/06/04 01:05 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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NDA means just that. VDU is exactly corect in his ethics. It would be illegal and unethical for him to release the code.

It doesnt matter if Activision (or ParSoft or Inertia or whoever they become) display no interest in the software. Legally it is theirs. It cannot be considered abandonware unless they make a statement to that point. (And there are a number of legal cases to back this up). Anyone who thinks otherwise is setting themselves (and anyone who throws in with them) up for a world of hurt.

Does this mean that the matter of access to the code is not being persued? No. However companies guard their resources very jealously. (Rightly so these days). So things take time.


~Snick~
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#1392338 - 08/06/04 01:38 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Too right Snick and Vincent

Speaking on behalf of myself and everyone else at SimHQ can I say that we do not condone software priacy in any form. Although Openplane may be available I/we believe that it should only be used once express permission has been obtained from the copyright holder.


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#1392339 - 08/06/04 05:32 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zander:
Too right Snick and Vincent

Speaking on behalf of myself and everyone else at SimHQ can I say that we do not condone software priacy in any form. Although Openplane may be available I/we believe that it should only be used once express permission has been obtained from the copyright holder.
Who said anything about piracy? I don't want to steal anything! \:\) If you think modifying game code without owners consent is piracy and you don't condone it, you'd better think twice then as half of the sims here have members who do just that. (EAW, WW2 Fighters, Red Baron and many others) No one has had the balls to do it to SDOE to get ahead of the game yet tho. \:\(


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#1392340 - 08/06/04 05:36 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Ah I see VDU and Snick chimed in here. \:\) Fear not guys, I'm actively seeking access to the source in legal ways too. Not getting much of anywhere tho... \:\(

Tho we will see what happens when the new GUI rolls out... \:D


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#1392341 - 08/06/04 05:38 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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No code is altered in Red Baron 3D.

#1392342 - 08/06/04 05:43 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Really? No AI tweaks? No .Dat modifications at all? If it was a file, and someone modified it knowing how, then code was changed be it thru a hex editor or something else... May not be EXE code, still code none-the-less.


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#1392343 - 08/06/04 06:19 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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I do think there is a difference between data and exe edits. Remember the BMS people (Jamm0r et al) got a "Cease and Desist" to stop spreading a new Falcon exe after they had changed the source code. However, from what I understand the people working on "data edits" are legally immune.

BTW, IMHO this shows again the fact that people will insist on their right even if IMVHO they do not plan another sim. Sad \:\( . However, it is probably human to think "we invested millions, so we will not allow people to abuse us and use it for free" instead of "We don't earn more if we stop them, so why should we?".

#1392344 - 08/06/04 06:23 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Ah I do not keep track of the Falcon community. Interesting to hear... But, they only told them to stop after there was a possibility to release a new Falcon game, correct? Before that, nothing was said? I'm curious...


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#1392345 - 08/06/04 08:10 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  

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Zander, I'm not sure what documents you think need to be written up. They already have the NDA that VDU signed, plus the licensing docs ($100k, last I heard.) AFAIK, that's all they're interested in. The contact for finding out more would be Ron Dimant.

Osram, IANAL, but there is has historically been a legal difference between changes made through reverse engineering vs changes made through source code. Just having access to the source code invalidates a reverse engineering defense. (Albeit, the wretched DMCA has made this more fuzzy.)

#1392346 - 08/06/04 08:51 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Zander check your PM...


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#1392347 - 08/07/04 05:17 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Ok, I've heard of this Ron Dimant guy... Do you have any contact info for him Mighty? If so, please e-mail me at: ArgonV at AOL dot com

I would like to see what the requirements are for source code access, modification and release to the SDOE community. AFAIK the Patch has to be uploaded to the Wings with Wires server, and no where else. Also you obviously can't divuldge any info to anyone not under the NDA regarding the source and such... and that you can't sell the code or make a profit from the patches or anything..


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#1392348 - 08/07/04 08:43 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
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Also, as I recall, there was a ban on releasing any patch on CD as well.

Presumably, this was to prevent a 'patch' exe plus original content being released on CD to effectively constitute a whole new game.

Additionally, I do not know if the NDA restricted what portions of the code could be changed.

If your objective is to produce a complete package of SDOE WW1 that is independant of the original game, you are going to need a license. Time to form ArgonV Enterprises, get a business plan, and start working on raising revenue \:\)

If all you want to do ( er all ;\) ) is to code lots of new features to improve the WW1 experience, then it may be possible to do that under the current NDA conditions. It really depends how much faith the owners (not us) have in your abilities and motivation, and whether it is in their interests to take the chance.

You have got to
a) Find the decision maker
b) convince him/her that you are the right man to do this
c) Make it clear you will not breach any NDA or leak the code

IF they have been following the path of SDOE modding, they may well know who you are, but from what I have learnt around here, they may not have a clue! There is no guarantee that they EVER look in the forums. That being the case, when someone asks for access to source code which they would licence for a 6-figure sum, they are going to be VERY careful. Hence VDU being PERSONALLY liable in the event of any source leak or breach of conditions that result in a 'loss of revenue' to the owners of the codes rights.

Be careful, be cool, and be professional. This goes beyond enthusiasm, modding skills and such, and goes straight to legal documents and business.

( cue mission impossible theme ;\) )


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#1392349 - 08/08/04 09:39 AM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  

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Chad checks in on the SDOE forum occasionally. So he prolly would recognize a few handles.

Ron is basically the business dude of Parsoft/Inertia/MacPlay/MumboJumbo/etc. I don't have his email handy. A guess would be ron at mumbojumbo.com.

As I see it, any work done on the source would realistically need to be coordinated with/by VDU. It would cause untold chaos if there were multiple branches of the code out there producing conflicting patches. Going through him and getting his endorsement seems to me to be the best way to be taken seriously.

#1392350 - 08/08/04 05:52 PM Re: New thread...just read...let's start a new WW1 sim  
Joined: Jan 2001
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ArgonV  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,926
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Yeah no doubt you would need coordination!! I have no intention of conflicting with VDU if I got my hands on the source. In fact, I would MOST CERTAINLY work with him! Hell, I will probably need his help as often as I can get it!! \:D


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