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#1392055 - 07/31/04 06:02 AM Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Recently it was announced that development on the WW1 flight sim, Knights Over Europe (KOE), had ceased. One of the few remaining individuals at the development company, 3D/2D Artist John MacKay, has asked SimHQ to conduct a reader's poll. The poll will help to determine if there is sufficient interest and support in the flight sim community for the ideas that SimHQ KOE Forum members put forth to raise funds so KOE could be completed and brought to market.

Update - August 4th: John has posted an important message here you should read. The poll will remain open because it provides valuable information and comments regarding the flight sim industry. Best of luck John with "Project A" and we hope to hear more from you after it's completed.


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#1392056 - 07/31/04 12:28 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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How about another question: Would you be willing to shell out more for a great flight sim than for other games to make the genre more profitable? Say $150 US? If they cost 3X the normal game price, then the developers would only need to sell 1/3 as many. I for one would pay $150 for a RB4.

#1392057 - 07/31/04 01:16 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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This poll is all well and good. I answered yes to all but the newsletter question. But there is one missing point that is very important if such a plan is undertaken.

If this is the way KOE will go, it can't be handled like a traditional development process. Those of us that are ponying up money in advance are essentially invenstors in the company. I for one what to know what I am investing in.

Much more disclosure is necessary. I would want to fully understand what it is that I will be getting in the end. I understand that things change and may be released in stages but if the product concept isn't appealing, I wouldn't pay for it over the counter much less in advance before it is developed.

Secondly, I want to know with whom I am doing business. What is the credibility of the group and what is the likelihood that they will succeed from the prospective of their developement skills and their ability to stay in business long enough?

What would this money be used for? Salaries? Other expenses? A way to secure additional financing?

Finally, the remnants of Aspect better check into the business and legal ramifications of this approach. There may be restrictions on this type of company financing. (That's what it is really.) There may be different liabilities to the partners.

#1392058 - 07/31/04 01:36 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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1st off, I truly am awaiting KoE!

If the 'normal' distribution shouldn't be advisable, then a CD mailed to me would be fine, too. A download could be problematic due to the estimated size of nowaday's sims, though; if you don't have a flat-rate, the several hours it would take to download it would add to the price, too.

However, I wouldn't mind paying a good price for a good sim; I definitively would not wait for a budget-version but buy it as soon as released. Liek I said: I'm waiting for it, it's a "I must have this", not a "I'd like to try it out" game. I wouldn't pay in advance, though - paying in advance of it being shipped, OK, but not before there's something to release, sorry.

That's another point: what would be considered a "final" to be released? What would be "released in steps/stages"? Or, to put it slightly differntly: what guarantee would be there that it would get finished? The reason why I'm asking simply is fiascos like "Strike Fighters", please bear with me.

Add-ons are a comletely different matter, though: if the sim's good it makes appetite for more, sure. I definitively would be interested in add-ons supposed the sim itself is good; if the add-ons are barely patches to make the original release playable, then "no THX", though.

Why a newsletter? If it would be a newsletter about KoE and future developments, OK, but for me, personally, please no 3rd party ads. What I'm interested in is covered in the magazine(s) I read already, you know.

I understand that KoE's future is depending on us as potential customers. I know that we're a niche-market, too. I'd be willing to pre-order if this would guarantee a release, but I wouldn't be willing to pre-pay without any guarantees. (Besides, I'm married - my wife would skin me alive if I did, and serve me right.) I'd be willing to do everything useful to support KoE being released - within the limits of common sense.

If it should come, fine; if not it'll be a boring time for us WWI-nuts...


Ulf 'Don ULFonso' Muckel
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#1392059 - 07/31/04 01:46 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Good questions Chevelle, and the pitch might derive it's form a little from the model that Battlefront's Combat Mission utilized, or even Kess's pre-payment marketing for Full Canvas Jacket.

I'm sure we all want to know what our money might be going towards, and with strong quarantees we can understand and then get what we paid for, but as far as being investors goes............well, although we providing seed money for eventual completion of KOE, we're only prepaying for a product or service..........nothing more, and nothing less.

This poll is merely step one in the process I would think, if there's support in the idea and the community.........then the plan's detailing will have to follow (and the process must be transparent).

Bottom line...........I hope this happens (obviously), and I hope a few people involved in the devlopment might make some money out of KOE's release too, but I think there might be just a little pride involved in the process also (I hope so)!

Aspect came to create and sell us a WWI sim, and someone/something detroyed that dream!

But that dream.....and all that hard work aint over just yet!!!

#1392060 - 07/31/04 02:56 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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I hope to be one of the first to secure my copy once this is a "go".

#1392061 - 07/31/04 03:09 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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If we're going to succeed, we're going to need all kinds of people involved in the process. We'll definitely need people with the fire and drive of FlyXwire. But we're also going to need people like Chevelle and DonULFonso asking questions that require honest and straight answers from myself and G. Stottlemyer. I'm looking forward to working with you all. I also suspect that if I'm asked enough questions and I give enough details in the answer that there will come a time when some of my answers don't please everybody. I'm not running for political office nor am I trying to win a popularity contest. I am trying to let people know what's happened to KOE and I'm also trying to find a way to finish it.

While the poll has just started, I'm already surprised by the results. Which proves why it's so important to take these polls. When we have our planning meetings it will be so much better to go into them and say, look here are 500 people who have said that they would be willing to buy our sim over the internet, rather than having to say, well I have a gut feeling people might want to do this.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to take the poll. The software that SimHQ uses to conduct the polls has limits on the number of questions that can be asked and the length of the text used in the questions. Thanks to guod and SimHQ for helping us out.

#1392062 - 07/31/04 06:29 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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How do we know this isn't just some con job? You don't want people to come to Denver. Aspect never behaved as a normal company to the point some here believed the whole thing was a hoax. The screenshots look okay but the sky doesn't look right. Something looks 'odd' when you look at the backdrop of the screenshots.

Can you supply some sort of guarantee that there IS and CAN BE a WW1 flight sim in the works here?

#1392063 - 07/31/04 07:20 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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It would be useful to make sure work is progressing, but since Knights Over Europe was at lasts year's E3 (I think that's what it's called), I very much doubt it is a "con job".

Seventy potential customers in the first ten hours. So far, so good.


-Neutrino 123 (pronounced Neutrino One-Two-Three)
#1392064 - 07/31/04 08:20 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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God Pen...you weren't asked to pay cash yet, just if you would under certain circumstances.

So why dont you wait with fraud accusitions till you're asked for your CC Number?

I've met Eddie W at Duxford, known him for a lot longer. He was one of the Leads in Target for Tonight Development.

When he says he was a contract modeller for KoE, and when he explains the story, that's guarantee enough for me.

#1392065 - 07/31/04 10:08 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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I'd be willing to pay up front for a product in development if there were some perks involved in return. Perks like weekly updates, an idea of where the programmers were headed with development, the possibility of being a beta tester, and getting a final release version before it was released to the general public.

I really wouldn't be interested in getting a game that might be completed in stages unless those stages were built upon a games that was at least 80% complete. If the stages were items like a dynamic campaign, extra maps, ect. then OK. If it means a game that lacks features like an up to date flight model, multi-play or a graphics engine not viewed as state of the art then no.

I like the idea of a sim that is produced with help from the sim community. I'd volunteer to help skin planes, ground targets and the like.

Rjel2003

#1392066 - 07/31/04 10:42 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I hope to see some progress ;\) when I'll return from my 2 weeks trips I'm gonna leave for tomorrow...

I do appreciate this 1st step of checking the grounds for a closer communication and cooperation with the interested community (bear with my poor wording: I'm German and dunno how to express it better).

I suppose Aspect Simulations know that this will require an open and honest atmosphere if it's meant to show results - probably more open and honestly than both sides are used to and comfortable with... at 1st, at least. The aim, however, should be worth a try ;\) .

One thing I would be willing to do is sign some sort of "binding" pre-order and thereby guarantee that I'll buy KoE when released; dunno whether that's legally possible, it's just a thought. (Mind, I'm talking of a fully finished sim running "as is", with contents "as advertized" respectively as to be listed; bear with me if I fear the "Stike Fighter"-factor.)

Will check back in 2 weeks...


Ulf 'Don ULFonso' Muckel
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#1392067 - 07/31/04 10:48 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Very interesting post Rjel2003:

Quote:
I'd be willing to pay up front for a product in development if there were some perks involved in return. Perks like weekly updates, an idea of where the programmers were headed with development, the possibility of being a beta tester, and getting a final release version before it was released to the general public.
So what you want is The Sims of sims! \:\)

Awesome!!!

Sure, why not..........we could get updates almost like we were doing the developing ourselves, following it's progress, watching this sim progress towards beta, and even interacting (to a degree) in the process, and then we get to participate in the beta testing before it goes Gold!

The Sims of flight sim's development........but of course!

Now who wants to syndicate this idea for a reality TV show (I can tell you one thing........Destineer is out of the running)!!! \:D

(post-note) DonULFonso your English is great.......I just had to come back and correct mine! ;\) Have a great holiday btw. \:\)

#1392068 - 08/01/04 01:37 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:
God Pen...you weren't asked to pay cash yet, just if you would under certain circumstances.

So why dont you wait with fraud accusitions till you're asked for your CC Number?

I've met Eddie W at Duxford, known him for a lot longer. He was one of the Leads in Target for Tonight Development.

When he says he was a contract modeller for KoE, and when he explains the story, that's guarantee enough for me.
I wasn't making any accusations, I was only asking a legitimate question.

It is good to know they were at an E3, I didn't know this. And if you've known and met him before then that's good enough for me too.

#1392069 - 08/01/04 01:46 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Wonder if Aspect have ever tried shopping KOE to Matrix Games? Matrix supports small independent developers and have digital downloads for a number of their games. If they published Starshatter then I don't see why they would'nt be interested in KOE.

#1392070 - 08/01/04 03:59 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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To Pen and other like minded people.

Let's nip some misconceptions in the bud.

KOE was never at any E3. 2003 or 2004

After about a year of internal development, Aspect Simulations put up a website announcing the development of KOE to the public. A few publishers showed interests in picking up KOE. One of the main reasons why Destineer was picked over the others was that they made several promises about making public announcements about being the publisher and that they would set-up a KOE website and draft up and implement a marketing plan. We were very concerned when they started to fail to keep their promises, and our concern was communicated to them in several ways. When the producer asked to be allowed to step in and do more on our own website, he was told that was the responsibility of the publisher. We all had more than enough work of our own to do, without taking on the extra work of doing the publisher's job for them.

As for why I don't want people to come to Denver and "check us out." It's not that we are trying to hide something or that we don't have anything to show, it's just that we are currently lacking in resources to properly entertain you while you're here. Besides, it's a very long drive to DIA from anywhere and with gas prices being what they are, I'd rather not make the trip.

As for the appearence of the skies in the screen shots. There is a reason why every website with screenshots of a game in development puts up a giant disclaimer about the pictures being from a "work in progress." They're trying to minimize comments like yours.

Destineer stopped paying Aspect Simulations. Aspect had to stop development of KOE. Those of us remaining at Aspect are implementing a plan to rescue the effort and resources that were put into KOE. Part of that plan is to let the WW1 flight sim community know what's happened to us and to gather information about what support there might be for our efforts to continue.

I do not appreciate being called a fraud. But it's the price we pay for being quiet so long. But I still don't care for it.

#1392071 - 08/01/04 04:13 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Well you aint quiet now Xeidos2, and that's a beautiful thing! \:\)

Hey you know.........the more pissed you get, the more we learn!!!

Oh yes.......we have ways to make you talk. \:D

#1392072 - 08/01/04 04:22 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Some good info and some interesting ideas being posted here. I'm very much hoping you guys are going to be able to pull this off.
I eagerly await further developments and intend to offer what ever support I can. Have answered yes to all 5 poll questions but I do have reservations along the lines of what has already been mentioned by others.

Good luck, Bk

p.s. especially liked that pre-release beta testing idea.

#1392073 - 08/01/04 04:34 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Sorry, Xeidos2, I wasn't calling you a fraud, I was asking for what proofs we have before we send you money. I feel that is a reasonable question to ask. But sorry to upset you I simply won't send money to names on a forum unless someone somewhere can verify they are who they say they are. If Colonel says he's met Eddie W. then I believe him. That is proof.

#1392074 - 08/01/04 07:05 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Let me make some more clarifications.
Neither I nor Aspect is asking anyone to send us money nor to raise money for us. Not now anyway. We simply are asking the community what they are willing to support once we do have a real product to offer. The survey is barely a day old but it already seems to indicate that there's a lot more willingness to buy over the internet and to buy a product in stages than we ever imagined. For us this is very encouraging news. It makes finishing KOE a much more viable prospect than it was a couple of weeks ago.

While I've not met him face to face, Eddie_W (as he's known on this forum) has made some excellent models for us, and I get the impression from his e-mails that he's as fine as others say he is. My hope is that we'll be getting some more work from him in the future. So if you buy Pacific Fighters when it comes out, you'll be helping Ed. If you help Ed, you're helping us. If you help us you'll have a better chance of getting KOE. Then you'll be able to help yourselves.

#1392075 - 08/01/04 10:56 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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i would buy( full price of the fínished game) a copy of the alpha/beta version, to support the development process.


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#1392076 - 08/01/04 12:46 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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The poll results are very encouraging. All the ‘yes’ answers show support for the direction in which I see flight sim development go anyway. But I have three remarks:

- Why are so few (relatively to the other questions) people interested in an online newsletter (which I take it is free)? Does this have anything to do with the attractiveness of a newsletter or with methodological aspects of the questionnaire (people who answer the poll are so involved in the forums they don’t need the newsletter)?
- The people in this thread are bound to be relatively positive. Why not put the poll out to all SimHQ members once the daily news starts again?
- You talk about sims in general. But could the answers WWI sims not be different (less positive) than for, for example, WEWII sims which, I think, are much more popular?

I don’t want to be discouraging; I answered all questions with ‘yes’ and hope (and would pray if I were a believer) that so many people do that investors lay waiting in their sleeping bags at Aspect’s doors tomorrow morning. But we have to bee cautious. All the same, there is hope again for KoE and what more could we ask for at the moment?

#1392077 - 08/01/04 01:04 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I wanted to add...I knew that Eddie was working as contract modeller for KoE long before any of this story about the puplisher going AWOL became puplic. (Hope that is not any breach of NDA, he never let me in on any infos or screenshots or something).

Would have to be a mighty well-planned fraud to have people, months before the final pull, give out false information.

Nah, Eddie is legit (as John noted he's now working on some PF Models) and by that extension when he choses to associate himself with KoE they are totally legit themself. Not a doupt about that.

And even if I wouldn't know Eddie...it still would be a little too big a setup to create a game website, build screenshots, run this for half a year, then construct a story about a puplisher going AWOL, instead supporting another WW1 Sim on the X-Box, and finally trying to get people to send money...

Nah...fraud can be waaaaay simpler than that.

#1392078 - 08/01/04 01:59 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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About the newsletter question. Guod had some real limitations imposed on him by the software when it came time to write the questions for the poll. He didn't have a chance to better explain what was meant. I think most people understood from having read all the other posts during the past week that we were asking about a newsletter that was published on a website and that you had to pay a subscription fee to be able to see and read. The money raised would be used to help cover the expense of finishing KOE.

Here's how it would work.

Let's imagine that you've decided to help support the finishing of KOE. You send Aspect Simulations $15 for a 6 month subscription to the newsletter via PayPal. You get sent in return a password that allows you to connect to a secure website that has the newsletter on it. In this newsletter you'll find news about the development of KOE and see screenshots and videos of the game in action that are exclusive to the website. When KOE becomes available for sale, you'll get a $20 or $30 discount for having been a subscriber to the newsletter. When we need beta testers, only subscribers will know about it and their applications will be given favor over non-subscribers. We may have a thousand subscribers and only need one hundred testers, so a subscription isn't a guaruntee that you'll get to be a beta tester, but you'll have a much better chance to be one than the regular player.

The placing of this poll on the KOE forum instead of a general discussion forum was done at the request of SimHQ.

The thought of investors waiting at the door is an interesting one. They'd have to bring along some strong insect repellant as the mosquitos around here have a very real threat of carrying the West Nile Virus. They'd have to worry about getting overrun by tumbleweed and rabbits and the occassional praire dog as well. Fields of buffalo aren't too far away either.

#1392079 - 08/01/04 01:59 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Quote:
Nah...fraud can be waaaaay simpler than that.
........and a lot more profitable and painless that what Xeidos2 has been revealing to us here so far I'm sure!

Let's move on beyond this issue, there's things to do, people to see, and issues to be resolved..............with all due caution and determination acknowledged. \:\)

#1392080 - 08/01/04 02:20 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Quote:
They'd have to bring along some strong insect repellant as the mosquitos around here have a very real threat of carrying the West Nile Virus. They'd have to worry about getting overrun by tumbleweed and rabbits and the occassional praire dog as well. Fields of buffalo aren't too far away either.
Well I certainly don't want to go to Colorado now!!! \:D

I'll take my updates in a newsletter form........thank you very much. ;\)

#1392081 - 08/01/04 05:36 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Well I answered yes to all the poll questions except the "buying the product in stages" one!
I'm willing to pay for the game over the Internet and I'm also willing to give money in advance (newsletter and other contributions) and I'm also a 100% supporter of future Addons which I think it's an excelent idea to keep a game profitable!

But regarding the "buying the product in stages" option my answer is clear NO!! I will NOT buy a game (or other kind of product) in stages! When I buy a game I want it to be at least completed and have a minimal standard of quality (which an uncompleted game will not have for sure)!
I had enough of many recent games (specially sims) which have lot of bugs and were really uncompleted when they got out.

But I do support at 100% all other options and with them I think there's no need to release an uncompleted game!

#1392082 - 08/01/04 05:56 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I guess it depends on what "stages" means. If it is:

Stage 1: lots of bugs
Stage 2: fewer bugs
Stage 3: a lot less bugs
Stage 4: very few bugs
FINAL: hardly any bugs

Then I am against it. But, if it means:

Stage 1: Single player with 4-5 planes per side.
Stage 2: Single player with 10+ planes per side.
Stage 3: Multiplayer on company server (free)
Stage 4: Multiplayer on user servers and company mega servers (fee)

You get the idea. If "staging" means thoroughly tested and operational but with limited features then I'm OK with that.

#1392083 - 08/01/04 06:09 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pen:
Sorry, Xeidos2, I wasn't calling you a fraud, I was asking for what proofs we have before we send you money. I feel that is a reasonable question to ask. But sorry to upset you I simply won't send money to names on a forum unless someone somewhere can verify they are who they say they are. If Colonel says he's met Eddie W. then I believe him. That is proof.
Pen, you have made a very good point.

I believe that this game is real, and not a con job but even with our support there is no guarantee that it will see the light of day. I have seen some games that looked very good but never made it to the light of day. Confirmed Kill, Target for Tonight are two that come to mind.

This is something that everyone that gets involved, financially or not,needs to keep in mind before committing to this, or any other game of its type. Many great ideas never get to the final stage and this may happen. I don't want anyone to get upset if KOE still fails. I suspect that it will take a lot of effort from a lot of people to get this thing off the ground and that it may come to fruition unless there is a major backer. I am still willing to help, whatever way I can but I also realize that like some investments, they don't pan out. It is a risk.

What would be nice is for people to see some kind of 'working' copy of the game. Not everyone, maybe some reliable people in the gaming press or those without a major interest in the game. Kess would be a goo one to look at the early early builds to verify that yes, there is a game engine and yes that it is in good shape. In addition I am sure there is someone at SimHQ, Check 6, and other mags that would be willing to look at it and verify that it is 'on the track' to completion. I am not suggesting myself, whomever the group here thinks would be an impartial staff member to look at the game would be the best bet.

Personally I think that would be the best way for the public to view this project.

Just remember that it still may not come to be, even with positive press covering it may still fail.

No rose covered glasses here.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#1392084 - 08/01/04 06:11 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chevelle:
I guess it depends on what "stages" means. If it is:

Stage 1: lots of bugs
Stage 2: fewer bugs
Stage 3: a lot less bugs
Stage 4: very few bugs
FINAL: hardly any bugs

Then I am against it. But, if it means:

Stage 1: Single player with 4-5 planes per side.
Stage 2: Single player with 10+ planes per side.
Stage 3: Multiplayer on company server (free)
Stage 4: Multiplayer on user servers and company mega servers (fee)

You get the idea. If "staging" means thoroughly tested and operational but with limited features then I'm OK with that.
Also a good point but expect bugs. I can't remember a game that didn't have some major ones in it so I expect it here. As long as it doesn't crash and the planes fly reasonably well I am willing to wait for fixes.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#1392085 - 08/01/04 06:15 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Absolutely!

The modular concept, discussed here (no pushed here) on this forum for over a year now, was seen as a key to getting the most bug-free, in-depth, iron-out coding, high-fidelity AC, terrain, campaign, online networking.............you get the idea! \:\)

The formula for success has always been there, and it's time to embrace it!

Maybe necessity dictates this now, but like others have maintained, and how Stickshaker (and now Chevelle) have denoted, for highest quality high-fidelity simulation nowadays, you need to focus (this was at the heart of my "squadron(s) campaign idea)!

You prioritize the essentials, and take on the building in segments, by adding on layers...........but the original build has to have this modular concept in mind from the beginning for easiest implementation (which makes the facillation of adding additional content later easier in the long-run).

#1392086 - 08/01/04 07:10 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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PatWilson Offline
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usually centered in somebody e...
My own examples of successful staged releases:

1. WFP: Started with about 60 planes, is now at 100. Added things over time, developed software to automate processes, graduallya dded stuff and I'm still at it.

2. My real job: Was hired three years ago to work on software that leaked memory like a sieve, performed like a pig, and had about 40% of the funtionality of the flagship java product. After V4 it didn't leak anymore. After V5 its performance had improved by almost 2000%. After V6 its performance had increased by 3000%. All along its feature list was catching up to the flagship program.

Staged releases are ABSOLUTELY THE CORRECT WAY TO DEVELOP LONG LIVED SOFTWARE!!! The thing is that most games are not intended to be long lived, so they are coded like ****e for a quick bang.


The lucky man is the man who leaves as little to chance as possible.
#1392087 - 08/01/04 07:36 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xeidos2:
You send Aspect Simulations $15 for a 6 month subscription to the newsletter via PayPal. ... When KOE becomes available for sale, you'll get a $20 or $30 discount for having been a subscriber to the newsletter.
...so there's profit?!$ \:\) $

If a newlestter doesn't make me pay more and just changes 'when' I'm paying then I change my vote (as that was the only one I voted 'no' on). Of course, there does need to be a gurantee of eventual release before any actual transactions are made.


-Neutrino 123 (pronounced Neutrino One-Two-Three)
#1392088 - 08/01/04 09:31 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I don't fear a sim ever being released, even in alpha stages, I'm a total believer that there is a flying KoE. My fear is that we get a WWIIOnline version of WWI flight sim. In that I mean, a piece of flying crap, to put it lightly. Sorry if anyone loves WWIIOnline, but to me it looks like a cartoon both in animations and features.

Personally, I'd rather pay $150 to see an updated version of Longbow 2, or send the money Flexman's way to get AH64 Apache out the door, but I guess you won't find helos in WWI so more power to you guys if you can pull it off with a decent sim.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#1392089 - 08/02/04 12:31 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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There's alot of people evidently willing to blindly throw money at a project that may never get finished. There's absolutely no way i'd ever prepay for anything that i wasn't absolutely positive of getting and that i didn't know exactly what i was getting for my money. In other words there's no way i'd prepay unless:

1) I was guaranteed it was going to be released
2) I was guaranteed what features were going to be in
3) Guaranteed a release date

Without those conditions i may as well throw my money away as it'd serve the same purpose. I personaly don't think a situation like this would work as the people that prepayed would consider themselves investors and rightly so, and would expect to be involved directly in the process and again rightly so and have constant updates and progress reports. This situation would be more of a headache for the developer than it'd likely be worth. Let alone the potential for lawsuits when the finished product either doesn't come or doesn't meet certain standards. I personally think that this should just be allowed to die a graceful death and that be that.

#1392090 - 08/02/04 12:48 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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And that was Swampthng folks, lets have a big round of applause for the thng!

We'll take that as a "No" vote...........LOL!!!

#1392091 - 08/02/04 12:57 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Pssst... Hey fellas, a little tiny thing called a DEMO would inspire some of the non-believers. Heck even an alpha technology demo would be enuff. If ya can't even make something available like that at this point in it's development, I'd say the investors are gonna have to wait quite some time to get there hands on a product finished enoughed to even be released. It may involve many more headaches than you asked for. No matter how nice and supportive people may seem now, give them another year without at least some kind of release and you'll find out who your friends are.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#1392092 - 08/02/04 01:00 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Hun Hunter Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by swampthng:
There's alot of people evidently willing to blindly throw money at a project that may never get finished. There's absolutely no way i'd ever prepay for anything that i wasn't absolutely positive of getting and that i didn't know exactly what i was getting for my money. In other words there's no way i'd prepay unless:

1) I was guaranteed it was going to be released
2) I was guaranteed what features were going to be in
3) Guaranteed a release date

Without those conditions i may as well throw my money away as it'd serve the same purpose. I personaly don't think a situation like this would work as the people that prepayed would consider themselves investors and rightly so, and would expect to be involved directly in the process and again rightly so and have constant updates and progress reports. This situation would be more of a headache for the developer than it'd likely be worth. Let alone the potential for lawsuits when the finished product either doesn't come or doesn't meet certain standards. I personally think that this should just be allowed to die a graceful death and that be that.
Some valid points raised there. I must admit the idea of KOE being resurrected by the very people who are most interested in it, is a good one. I for one would rather it didn't "die a graceful death" but I would also need to know that after subscribing to a newsletter or funding the project any other way, that I was eventually going to have a flyable WW1 flightsim on my hard drive. A year down the track and a couple of newsletters later I would be upset, to say the least, if the comment "sorry we have to turn the lights out" came up.

My major concern is ironically also the best part of this idea, namely letting us, the simmers, fund this project. Despite the couple of hundred people who have voted on this poll, is that really enough to fund the completion of KOE or would the subscription start running into three figures?. Has this idea (and this poll)been circulated to other sim sites?. I guess this is all semantics right now and there would be many details to iron out before any money changed hands.

I agree with Tom Cofield when he says that we would need an idea of exactly how far forward the development of KOE has come so far. A selected release of the sim would at least give us an idea of whether KOE was actually worth investing in. As for guaranteed release dates and features, no sim would ever have been released if those stipulations were present!.

*edited for dyslexic spelling ability*


Keyboard Not Detected. Press F1 to Resume...
#1392093 - 08/02/04 01:06 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Terrible Two:

Amen brother. I would really like to see an updated Apache sim as well. World War One in my opinion, and my opinion only just doesn't trip my particular trigger. So say NO for me.

As for pricing, here is a neat trick. Read on if you need a refresher in Econ 101. I am jumping the rails at this point and goint OT. Read at your own risk.

Let the market decide. It's worked for about Six Thousand years or so of recorded history. It's imperfect, but it's better than anything else out there.

People's grasp on economics, and civics seems to be pretty weak these days. Here in the States during an election cycle especially, it gets down right insane. No logic, no basis in reality, just a beauty contest, punctuated with anti-logic. You can figure out who is full of poo for your self. That is so far OT even I won't go there.

All I know is the guy that says he is going to make the world some kind of utopia, and all he needs to do it, is the major part of my income, uses the same "logic", as the guys in this forum that want to "save" flight sims by charging $ 150 - $300 US a pop.

Life doesnt work that way friend. You charge all you can till somebody else makes a better product, at a reduced cost. Repeat as necessary. It's basic economics. Why shouldn't basic econ apply to flight sims as well as any other product ?

The Russians couldn't ignore that reality, and went broke. The Chinese tried it too, and now they use the market as a weapon to persue their agenda (very smart, forward thinking people the chinese) Didn't work for Castro either because he floats his workers paradise on drug money. North Korea is starving. They ignored market forces and now their people are in a world of hurt. However they did manage to con lots of weapons money, and even heating oil out of some stupid US politcians who threw money at them in exchange for a bogus promise not to develop weps of mass destruction. the funding stopped only when Japan had a multi-stage missile splash off their east coast as a result. Most of the countries in Africa who are really hurting are doing so because they stifled their market forces in favor of a centrally controlled economy. Look at South Africa. Mugabe is absolutely nuts ! S. Africa is hurting now, when it use to be the economic giant of the contenent.
Check for yourself. Market forces can not be denied.

My bet is the developers get this. They tried to say so, but nobody listened. They want to gauge interest to see if further expenditure of capital is warranted. I don't get why so many folks don't understand that.

You may now return to a hopefully more enlightened discussion of the issue.


I love it when a plan comes together. ~ H. Smith "The A-Team".
#1392094 - 08/02/04 02:01 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Chevelle Offline
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I think the idea of a subsciption newsletter is a bad one. This whole endevour can only succeed if the community as a whole gets behind it. This may mean paying for a product that may come in stages. Information is vital to keeping the community behind the project. Limiting it to only those that have paid for it risks loosing the support of the larger community, something that this project cannot afford.

#1392095 - 08/02/04 02:01 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

**DONOTDELETE**
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I don’t see this as “blindly throwing away money” I look at it as a calculated risk, a gamble. I have a chance at being near the front of the line to enjoy a sim I’ve been waiting years for. I have a chance of being a tester. I have a chance to see progress maybe even make comments or suggestions to the developers. Sure maybe something will happen and I’ll out the money I’ve put out but this a risk I’m willing to take. Maybe when it’s done I won’t like it and it’ll become a coaster, I can’t tell you the number of coasters I already own. There’s nothing wrong with playing it safe too. Hold your money in your own pocket. But where would be with out people taking a risk? There are no guarantees in life. We should all know that. I doubt there’s a court in the world that would listen to the idea of a lawsuit for something like this and shame on anyone who consider filing one. Sure it does have the potential for becoming a headache for Aspect. But Seriously, when has anything worthwhile ever been easy?

I have faith in these guys and I’m willing to risk a few bucks. I expect no guarantees, I don’t expect any say in the product, I hope for a progress report I don’t think monthly is too much to ask for. I hope to be considered for testing if and when it gets to that point. Mostly I hope that Aspect is able to complete this sim and I can have “joy in my heart” of being a small part of making that happen.


Quote:
Originally posted by swampthng:
There's alot of people evidently willing to blindly throw money at a project that may never get finished. There's absolutely no way i'd ever prepay for anything that i wasn't absolutely positive of getting and that i didn't know exactly what i was getting for my money. In other words there's no way i'd prepay unless:

1) I was guaranteed it was going to be released
2) I was guaranteed what features were going to be in
3) Guaranteed a release date

Without those conditions i may as well throw my money away as it'd serve the same purpose. I personaly don't think a situation like this would work as the people that prepayed would consider themselves investors and rightly so, and would expect to be involved directly in the process and again rightly so and have constant updates and progress reports. This situation would be more of a headache for the developer than it'd likely be worth. Let alone the potential for lawsuits when the finished product either doesn't come or doesn't meet certain standards. I personally think that this should just be allowed to die a graceful death and that be that.

#1392096 - 08/02/04 02:01 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Well some of you nay sayers obviously don't care about WWI aviation or flight sims very much. We haven't had a new WWI flight sim in years! There are no others in development so we are trying to ressurrect KOE so we can all have it. Porkchop, no one said KOE will cost $150.00, those were ideas, not official policy. I see your an obvious Bush supporter there as well and I have no idea how that's relevant, but hey guess you are entitled to a semi rant if you feel the need to.

Its really easy to just let things die. It's real easy to give up and walk away forever, a lot easier then not giving up. And it's also really easy to take the big dreams of a man or group of people and call them fools and then wander away thinking you've "told them how life works". If the founding fathers of the USA listened to logic like this they would have said "yeah your right, we can't defeat the British, we can't beat king George, lets just be realistic and continue living under the opressive monarchy" And the USA would never have existed.

Maybe KOE can't be ressurected, but maybe it can! If you give up now I'll give you the answer, nope it will never be finished. But if we try, if we pull together and work on this, there is a damn good possibility it will get done, and that is better then doing nothing and failing immediatly.

So continue calling people with vision and dreams unrealistic idealists, I'm sure someone said that to Thomas Jefferson, Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. at one point in time. But they tried and they changed the world forever.

"No statue has ever been constructed for the critic" ;\)


-Blacksheep
The Sheeps Pen
#1392097 - 08/02/04 02:35 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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And now we come to the reason we need Aspect and they need us...........cause once an idea is forwarded everybody wants to be a critic!

Guess what guys, and quite a few of you have laid this out loud and clear already, but maybe it needs to be said again............KOE isn't vaporware, it's not finished for sure, but I believe those screenies came from some developer's real game computer screen, and I believe KOE can be completed if given a chance!

Don't want to give it a chance, then you won't ever have to worry about "wasting" your precious money............it's call the self-fullfilling prophecy!

Here's something else to do a bit of soul-searching about, when's the last time we had a WWI sim this close to reality...........did 17-Hours succeed, has BoP materialized, what about an IL-WWI? I for one shouldn't need to remind any of you that Aspect has come closer to making this "first genuine WWI sim product" in the past seven years a reality than anyone else! So it's time to step back and face the facts...........you want to let this last best chance slip through our fingers.........what an unbelieveable SHAME that would be.

You know what's even worse than that, some of you would even be arguing over the bones when it's dead and gone!

Like I've said, this can be a Pheonix, or you can surely watch the vultures circle over Colorado.

That's not economics, that the cold hard facts!

I'm waitin' for Xeidos2 and Gary Stottlemyer to put something before us, because they have something I (WE) want, and that's the cold hard facts!

Sorry, but I'm listening to the guy who has the goods!!!

#1392098 - 08/02/04 04:03 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Well..... I could probably sneak 75 bucks out of the cash flow if I could be convinced that it MIGHT get me a copy of a game that was better than Red Baron. Of course, my real cost would be much, much more, as I KNOW it wouldn't run on my P3/500.

Pierre


The future isn't what it used to be.
#1392099 - 08/02/04 04:38 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Hi Pierre! Nice to see you here.

I'd be flying RB more often if I could get it to play even on my old system (when I upgraded I got a new box so I could keep my old system with the Voodoo 2 card). I think I'm going to have to re-install from scratch, which isn't bad - but the real pain is getting all the paints transferred over \:\) \:\) \:\)

It's also kind of depressing to only see a few people on the servers nowadays. I'm glad that FCJ saw some fresh people getting interested in WWI flight, but I think what we really need now is something like KoE. I hope it stays afloat - or should I say "in the air"?

-FranksValli

#1392100 - 08/02/04 09:21 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I'm not even a WW1 nut, and been a while since I touched a flightsim (currently busy with real life(TM)...but what the heck, I waste 50 bucks on a lot more stupid things than a chance for a new sim made for the simmers, not the arcade gamers.

I think the risk is a calculated one. By what John descripes right now you can load up the game, fly a plane and shoot others. So the basics are there.

If they really go TU in the future and after community funding it would be a nice safeguard if they agree to release their beta code so people can play with it and improve it.

So, that's the worst scenario...not to bad for 50 bucks.

#1392101 - 08/02/04 11:15 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Mahoney Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop:
All I know is the guy that says he is going to make the world some kind of utopia, and all he needs to do it, is the major part of my income, uses the same "logic", as the guys in this forum that want to "save" flight sims by charging $ 150 - $300 US a pop.

Life doesnt work that way friend. You charge all you can till somebody else makes a better product, at a reduced cost. Repeat as necessary. It's basic economics. Why shouldn't basic econ apply to flight sims as well as any other product ?
That's a gross over-simplification of "basic economics". How much you charge is heavily dependant upon who you are trying to sell to. A product that is marketed as a toy to be used for a month or so and then discarded is very different conceptually from a product that is marketed as a serious hobbyist item intended to be a major part of someone's leisure time for a serious period of time.

Sims traditionally get sold at the same rate as games in order to get sales to non-simmers. My suggestion was to create a game and a sim from the same code base, and sell the game at game price to gamers and the sim to serious simmers at a price that reflects the fact that it's a huge piece of work and that its target audience get one new sim every couple of years and may have to rely on it for 5 or more years as their chosen sim for that era. Moreover that they will probably invest $500 or more in hardware to run it. Good simulation software is a rare and valuable commodity to the serious sim hobbyist.

#1392102 - 08/02/04 11:41 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Stickshaker Offline
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Well said, Mahoney. I’m not so much afraid of idealists or taking a calculated risk with a controllable amount of money as I’m wary of people who want to ‘enlighten’ others with ‘objective’ facts or science. Economists are, as the saying goes, people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. One could say the ideas ventured in the poll are a very direct form of a micro-market, made possible by technology in a way that Adam Smith and Keynes could never have foreseen. ‘Regular’ products’ pricing is based on imperfect market perception and mobility by both producers and consumers, something that economic theory cannot cope with well. Involving the community in the development of KoE can reduce these market imperfections. And I think a whole lot of good is done by people who do not want to always surrender to market forces. I wonder how many sims we would have had if designers had maximized their market value in their choice of jobs. They’d probably be making risk assessment software for invertors, or something. Should pay much better.

Without creativity and idealism we would still be walking in bearskins and be living in caves, but without creative people and idealists we probably wouldn’t have mind.

#1392103 - 08/02/04 12:00 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Quote:

I wonder how many sims we would have had if designers had maximized their market value in their choice of jobs.
Exactly. I was at Dusmania, which in europe is THE event for people wanting into professional games development. One discussion was about people that already are sw developers and want to change, since game development is "sexy". Actually some do, but very few older ones (older meaning over 30 ). One reason is quite simply that their families do not like them jumping down a lot of pay levels.

I am sure people like TK or Oleg could get better paying jobs if they wanted to.

BTW, one important area of economics is how to sell to those people that have only little money and how to sell for a high price to those that accept a high price. This is the norm in applications. This was one of the things I found interesting about Mahoneys ideas. OTOH, MS did it with MSFS (BTW, I bought the expensive version) once or twice and then stopped doing it, so it seems not to have worked well.

#1392104 - 08/02/04 12:12 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Mahoney Offline
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Osram - I wonder if the MSFS idea of splitting between a basic and a more expensive pro version fell down because they were both simulations? Just one had more functionality than the other?

I note that they can still get away with charging £50 for the latest version - twice what Il-2 retailed for in the UK. But then if you are a civilian flight simulation hobbyist, what choice do you have?

#1392105 - 08/02/04 12:16 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I do think we have to take those people serious that either fear it is a hoax altogether or that some money will be taken, some development done behind closed doors and then the sim dies.

Most people really active in here do not think so, for example I know Eddie as well and so I am completely convinced it is no hoax.

However, these people are too few to finance devlopment, so we need the "lurkers" or those that are interested in WWI but not on (these) forums and among those the number of sceptics will be larger.

Therefore, I still think that any development/financing scheme has to take these fears into account.

Like I said, if you ship the newest test version to everyone that pays, then the people do get something for their money and also they do have proof something is happening. If, for example, for 3 month there is virtually no difference between the versions, they can still decide to stop paying.

Let EVERYONE test, even if you do not need as many testers. The only bad things about too many testers is that you will get a) redundant and b) bad test reports. So, I would let a community volunteer sift through them and clean them up and pout them into a neice bug database \:\) .

What I probably underestimated at first is psychologie. It is very important how you name it. Do NOT name it game or people will expect playing to be fun. Do not name it investment. Do not name it demo or people will think it demoes how bad the game will be. IMHO you should name it "alfa" and "beta" tests.

#1392106 - 08/02/04 12:25 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Mahoney Offline
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I like that idea, Osram - as I've said before, in my experience no-one picks up bugs like end users, too. Use Bugzilla and get one of us with genuine development experience to organise it and remove duplicates, categorise properly etc.

I liked the idea someone had of a guarantee that in the event of failure after the community financed development the unfinished code is made open source, too. Would mean that even if the money was from the consumer's point of view "wasted" something like the BDG could gently push it along as a hobby. It would certainly encourage me to buy into the scheme.

#1392107 - 08/02/04 12:31 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Osram Offline
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Quote:

Osram - I wonder if the MSFS idea of splitting between a basic and a more expensive pro version fell down because they were both simulations? Just one had more functionality than the other?
Maybe. I do "admit" that what they did is somewhat different to your idea. However, I know very very few games that attempted this (two versions with two different price levels at the same time). I do know a tank sim, Steal Beasts will attempt it shortly.

The reason I bought the MSFS 2002 PRO version was gMax. Also, it had a plane (or some?) more and a few minor goodies that I forgot.


Quote:

But then if you are a civilian flight simulation hobbyist, what choice do you have?
Yes, indeed.

BTW, about selling in stages. FWIW (I am not saying Aspect has to go this route):
Joel Sponsky is IMHO one of the brightest sw developers around at the time and writes books about methology. He is a MS fan. He worked on the Excel team. He says, paraphrased ;\) , one of the great things MS did and why they became so large is that for every product line they sold an unfinished version or two at first. He says to make a good product of a major piece of software, you need 10 years. You can have it under wraps for 10 years and get no money and no feedback on what customers want and customers have to twiddle their thumbs or you can do Windows 1 and Windows 2 before you do your first windowed operating system. I am not really going along on ethical reasons, but if someone of his calibre makes such a statement that on first sight seems so strange, it makes you think.

#1392108 - 08/02/04 12:52 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

**DONOTDELETE**
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I'd pay $100 for a Red Baron 4 equivalent with a solid campaign and MMP. Pass on the newsletter.

#1392109 - 08/02/04 01:53 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Interesting times. I've voted 'yes' five times in the poll, though obviously with some reservations.

On business models for such things as niche games, I also play boardgames, and GMT http://www.gmtgames.com have an interesting setup - Project 500 - where they take advance orders for games, but don't actually take any money until the game is ready to ship; the advance orders just guarantee a certain level of interest, and they will only put a game into development/production when they have 500 orders. Don't know if something similar can be done with software (I would guess that production costs for boardgames are much higher than they are for software, but the reverse for development costs - and timescales).

Also how about the little software players - I'm a fan of 'Microflight' and 'Virtual Sailor' - http://www.hangsim.com - these are developed by a one man band, but I think there is some relevance for the situation we have here; the developer produces the basic software engine, with an open architecture that allows the fan community to add new 3D models and maps. Purchasers pay for a download of the software, and get free minor upgrades, and free downloads of the user-created add ons from the website. Periodically a major new version is released, and this has to be purchased again. I think this model works brilliantly. The fan community does what it is best at - modelling new aircraft (and ships) - leaving the developer to perfect (over many iterations) the basic model. Purchasers don't have to keep upgrading if they don't like the software or lose interest, but those that do help fund further developments. From the developer's viewpoint this locks in a certain number of consumers to buying the new versions (rather like the Microsoft way - resistance to upgrading is much less than resistance to buying a new product).

If I were in Aspect's shoes (glad I'm not) I might try to produce a full featured game of limited scope (no more than two or three plane types a side, smallish map area, small chronological scope). Then set the community loose on adding new planes, new maps, new graphics etc. Meanwhile perfect and improve the basic game and release a new version (full price to first time buyers, reduced rates for upgraders). Rinse and repeat.

Personally I would love to feel that the game I had bought was going to be supported and improved and enhanced (and I don't mean just have sequels released). All too often if a game as released is flawed, that's the end - maybe a patch to fix the crashes, but no hope of improvements to the gameplay.

Notice I use the 'G' word - I firmly believe that it is VERY important to remember that even the most serious sim is still a first and foremost a game, and good gameplay is vastly more important than good graphics or (even) good historical realism (IMHO of course). I think that is why RB is still popular - the campaign career mode provides great gameplay. It would be a big mistake for Aspect to concentrate on producing a 3D engine, great artwork, loads of reasearch, detailed flight models, and forget to include a game in there. On the other hand, if they could produce a great game, then the community could take care of the graphics.

But then what do I know...

#1392110 - 08/02/04 05:02 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Posts: 113
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Quote:
Originally posted by swampthng:
There's alot of people evidently willing to blindly throw money at a project that may never get finished. There's absolutely no way i'd ever prepay for anything that i wasn't absolutely positive of getting and that i didn't know exactly what i was getting for my money. In other words there's no way i'd prepay unless:

1) I was guaranteed it was going to be released
2) I was guaranteed what features were going to be in
3) Guaranteed a release date
snip
And what type of "guarentee" would really mean anything? A lot of you don't remember a guy named Paul Hinds and a "flight Sim" called Tactical Aero Squadron" (think thats it?).. Look on Google.. I'm not saying THIS has anything to do with that type of scam, just to always be cautious of the carrot...Hey, i'm all for paying top dollar, for supporting a newsletter, for internet distribution, for being a beta tester, etc. etc. but won't take this seriously until I see more than screenshots.

Icer


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#1392111 - 08/02/04 05:40 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Von Stalhein, I see much merit in your idea, but I’m concerned about quality control with community-added planes. There seem to be many more external modelers than flight modelers, and what I see with the CFS series is that many planes are so-so, some look pretty and only a few give me the idea that the flight model, cockpit graphics etc. approach realism. When one receives a gift one cannot bee too demanding, but I’d rather pay for an add-on with well-researched and well-made aircraft so that I could trust they are as authentic as possible (which is, admittedly, difficult for me to judge so I have to trust the developer) than download five planes of the same type, none of which is satisfactory. Of course, payware and freeware don’t exclude one another. I believe that with Il-2 many freeware designers contribute, but Oleg Maddox, the Game Overall Director, guards quality. So while I agree with you, I would like to have either some direct quality control, or a ‘stamp of approval’ that the developers can give to freeware. Non-approved freeware need not be locked out, but at least the community can see which freeware is developer-endorsed and which is not.

#1392112 - 08/02/04 06:00 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Posts: 4,840
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Posts: 4,840
Portugal
Quote:
Originally posted by Chevelle:
I guess it depends on what "stages" means. If it is:

Stage 1: lots of bugs
Stage 2: fewer bugs
Stage 3: a lot less bugs
Stage 4: very few bugs
FINAL: hardly any bugs

Then I am against it. But, if it means:

Stage 1: Single player with 4-5 planes per side.
Stage 2: Single player with 10+ planes per side.
Stage 3: Multiplayer on company server (free)
Stage 4: Multiplayer on user servers and company mega servers (fee)

You get the idea. If "staging" means thoroughly tested and operational but with limited features then I'm OK with that.
Well, if the "stages" will be like the second group of stages you mentioned than I agree with it also!
What I meant in my previous post and that I'm totally against is if those stages will have the following example aproach:

Stage 1: Single player with quick or simple missions only (but without campaign).
Stage 2: Introdution of new objects (Ground, Air; Naval, etc...).
Stage 3: Single player with more elaborated singles missions (again without campaign).
Stage 4: Single player with campaign.

If the "Stage" aproach will be something similar to the above you can bet that I will NOT support and buy the game.
If otherwise (like the second case scenario posted by Chevelle) I certainly will buy and support the game.

#1392113 - 08/02/04 06:10 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
Joined: Jul 2001
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The example of the second stage shouldn't be taken literally. The point is that staged releases should mean better degrees of debugging. It should mean increasing number of features, functions, and capabilities. Each stage of release should include as much debugging and testing effort as is practical for the development team and to their testing specifications. (I presume you do/will have such a spec.)

Of course, I understand that bugs will be present and that each release will/should include bug fixes along with any additional features.

#1392114 - 08/02/04 08:32 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
Joined: Aug 2002
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I answered yes to everything but the second poll question.

I'm a bit concerned with giving out money for something that I would have no clue as to when I would get it.

I like the investment post early on. I think what I am being asked is if I would invest in this game now.

I think to do this, I'd want to be more closely aware of what the dev team was doing, and treated more as a investor than just a gamer/customer.

Obviously the first question is a no brainer - and that is good to see \:\)

I would be concerned with pirating - I would hope strong measures including key authorization could be put into place to make sure pirating is kept to a minimum.


S!
Recon
#1392115 - 08/02/04 09:42 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Xeidos2:
...In this newsletter you'll find news about the development of KOE and see screenshots and videos of the game in action that are exclusive to the website.
No, really! Were do I sign up? !! Too exciting!

"Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag and smile, smile, smile" \:\)

#1392116 - 08/02/04 09:55 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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I'd be willing to take a gamble and buy an advance copy. Throw in the news letter too, what the heck.

#1392117 - 08/02/04 10:45 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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All you need is money

#1392118 - 08/02/04 11:04 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Don't forget this doesn't have to be a £100 or whatever figure up front payment. It could for example be a bi-monthly direct debit or a payment every 3 months whatever as the game progresses. As it gets better you pay another installment - if nothing is happening and no-one answers emails, then you can cut and run with only some payment lost?

As it starts to get better, has more features etc then you can pay another installment? if no advancement then maybe you don't pay?

Maybe as popularity grows and it starts to look and feel good, more interest builds, more people contribute etc - at least this way you can see if things are growing or dying.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#1392119 - 08/02/04 11:23 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 336
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Posts: 336
Florida
Well heck I wouldn't have thought I'd say this but.. I'm kinda sceptical...First off tho lemme say that I've said for years that I would be willing to pay a premium for a great Red Baron replacement...however I am thinking twice about a
company that would not answer mine or anyone elses emails for months!! It even got to the point that people thought the whole thing was a hoax!! I just don't know... and the pole is a bit vague to me.... I need to see a contract or something. Anyway ... If this doesnt "fly" maybe we can convince Sierra to release the Red Baron source code and someone can rewrite it for
openGL....all we've seen is a few screenshot and those were way back in march...I wanted this too...Guys..find a new publisher...thats the way to get it done... I know 4 people who live within 10 miles of me who would buy it..and these people don't even post here..so if there were 4 people in every 10 mile radius that bought the game...well you do the math... FINISH IT! ;\)


"It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you just bombed."
#1392120 - 08/03/04 03:47 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Talk talk talk

Life's short, this is America and we all gamble.
I want KOE no matter what form it comes to me in.

Let these guys work, and one last thing, tell me how much ya want and where to send the check.

I want KOE please

#1392121 - 08/03/04 11:51 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Netherlands
Several issues should receive attention when publishing a sim in stages. They are obvious, but I thought I’d mention them.
1: It would seem to me that the general upgrade path should be clear before the first release. This will increase involvement of those people who appreciate the course followed, and avoid disappointment with those who don’t. So, for example, make clear which geographical areas and time period will eventually be covered, and stick to that (more can be done, but not less). The longer people are waiting for the add-on they want, and the more they like the sim in general, the more disappointed they will be if ‘their’ plane or scenery does not turn up in the end, and the more negative they may be towards future products.
2: The buying behavior of prospective clients may differ from what we have seen with other sims. For example, people who want an SE5a and a D.VII in a sim and see only a Camel and a Dr.I in the initial release, may decide to wait, whereas they might have bought a ‘complete’ sim outright. Also, if I am interested in hunting Zeppelins with a Camel above London, and in nothing else, will I be interested in buying 3 add-ons; one with five British fighters, four of which I don’t need, one with a Zeppelin, a Gotha and a Staaken, two of which I don’t need, and one with the scenery of all England, of which I need only London? Of course, the example is extreme, but I hope the point is clear.
3: So, partitioning the add-ons deserves some thought. Do you release planes, sceneries etc. individually or in packages? The former is client-friendly, but requires many separate add-ons who need to work together in all combinations. And missions would also require many combinations of add-ons. No doubt this can all be done, and the smaller the add-ons, the fewer download problems for the customer, but some customers may be put off by having to find out which downloads they need, and would rather have one big package. Of course you can offer various combinations of add-ons, but the size may get so big that you have to send CD-s to the customers. How many different add-ons do you want to offer on CD, taking logistics into account?

Of course these problems are entirely manageable, but they need to be considered, I feel involving the community in the way the poll suggests may give the opportunity for some market research in this respect.

#1392122 - 08/03/04 12:03 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I agree with Hookman. How much do you want and where do I send the check?

#1392123 - 08/03/04 08:27 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:
In addition I am sure there is someone at SimHQ, Check 6, and other mags that would be willing to look at it and verify that it is 'on the track' to completion. I am not suggesting myself, whomever the group here thinks would be an impartial staff member to look at the game would be the best bet.
[/QB]
Be sure to find some one on Check Six. The news with a link to this post will be online ASAP.

We are some moderators and webmasters who believe in KOE.

I already voted, and hope that many french will follow.

#1392124 - 08/04/04 03:46 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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When we get the website set up, we should definitely have an option to send money via PayPal - hopefully it will get to the proper place.

-FranksValli

#1392125 - 08/04/04 06:17 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I wish SimHQ had stickies. Polls look very favorable so far.

S!

#1392126 - 08/04/04 02:20 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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I'd pay in stages and certainly continue to do so for add-ons, but doubt I'd pay in advance for something unless it was 99.99% certain to be finished with or without my input.

Here's an idea for you to spin out some money with only a bit of coding and some 3D art floating around. Thinking of the fishtank screensaver that's around where you get a tank and some basic fish and can then purchase extra ones, how about making a 3D one using the planes that have already been made. Make a few simple backdrops and get the models moving around according to some scripts (so no flight dynamics, AI, etc required), zooming in and out, cruising through some clouds on patrol, strafing a trench, having a dogfight etc. Release it for free with just one backdrop and one or two models then charge for extra models that can be plugged into the screensaver. It may sound a bit trivial but I'd bet it would bring in a fair amount of money, not just from people buying the models to help fund game development but general screensaver and aviation fans.

Finally of course when the game is ready for release the screensavers will have acted like some nice marketing materials and maybe help sell a few more.

#1392127 - 08/04/04 03:53 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Posts: 548
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Posts: 548
Seattle
I kinda have Hookmans attitude. I want the sim and it will take money to see it happen. I can make more money, I can't make a sim. Tell me how much you need and where to send it. Sure it might be risky but so what? What are we going to do, walk away from the sim?

#1392128 - 08/04/04 04:04 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 167
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Posts: 167
Rhode Island, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Toadvine:
I kinda have Hookmans attitude. I want the sim and it will take money to see it happen. I can make more money, I can't make a sim. Tell me how much you need and where to send it. Sure it might be risky but so what? What are we going to do, walk away from the sim?
Yeah Hookman has the right idea. Everything is a risk in life, quit your job to find a better one, you might or might not. Invest in the stock market, you might totally bomb or win big. Here we have a product that is at least in a flyable stage, with no money and no developer. It needs investors, so lets give them investors. The end result will more then likely be a WWI flight sim for all of us, and there may be a possibilty it fails but I'm willing to take that risk for the chance of something better.


-Blacksheep
The Sheeps Pen
#1392129 - 08/04/04 04:20 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
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Seattle
We have to be willing to stick our necks out for this endeavor, at least a little bit, or KOE is not going to happen. That's the bottom line. That is the reality if we are going to resurect KOE along the lines we are talking about here.

We can't hold back funding on the grounds that this may be risky. It will be risky. But if we are not willing to take a risk who will? Apparently no publishers are.

#1392130 - 08/10/04 10:34 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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Salute all

Its a long time I have been out of update regarding RB3D and KOE. Now reentering this WWI-world, my hopes rised to zero \:\(
I think the KOE staff was doing a great job and I joined the poll to enforce it, but lets be realistic:
1.- No one is going to spend money if there is no warranty of getting something usefull in change
2.- We (the WWI community) would like to have a new good expandable, upgradeable, custimizable etc. etc. flight sim and surely would pay for it, but... How many are we?
3.- I think we may have a generation problem too: It would be wise to poll the WWI communitys average age. I guess it will fall over 30! The "new generation" rather likes fast games with big weapons which are mainly controlled by gamepads or mouse+keyboard (take a look at the joystick market and support). I am not blaming any kind of gaming genre, the world changes!
4.- About 370 members joined this poll until today: Supposing each of us would prepay lets say $100, it would make $37.000! This wouldn't even reach for a small Advertising promotion to increase the number of potential supporters. The KOE people needs more than good words and our enforcement, what in fact they have. If there is no way to convince a Publisher that now its time and a good chance to launch a new WWI-FS and the earnings will be profitable, the WWI sky will stay as it is.

Well I strongly wish we get our new WWI sim, but I think we are getting out of being "up to date". Maybe it is the same feeling those WWI pilots had when they saw this young men flying P-51s and ME-109s, who also entered the same "privilege" when Phantoms, Mirages, Falcons, Tornados, EF2000s and so forth followed....

Salute and good luck!

#1392131 - 08/10/04 11:42 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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I have seen the eyes of a 8 year old boy light up when he was told of The Red Barron and shown a model of a certain Bright Red Triplane. No modern day fighter pilot has quite the same ability I don't think !
KOE live on.

#1392132 - 08/10/04 12:44 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
Joined: Nov 2006
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FinnN Offline
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FinnN  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 87
It's good to hear that KOE may end up coming out after all, but I tend to agree with the poster a couple above - no publisher for a flight sim probably means no flight sim unless development can be continued in people's spare/empty time or funded elsewhere. Even if it does get picked up again I'd bet that it would have to start again at an earlier point in the development cycle. And what with the ever present danger of delays etc for any game, by the time 'project a' is done and something usable is ready for KOE we could easily be looking 2-3 or even 4 years away \:\(

Have fun
Finn

#1392133 - 08/11/04 04:53 AM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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I'm 100% behind this development. What I'd like to see would be a modern marriage of Red Baron III and IL2 that runs under WinXP. Heck, I'd pay up front for that considering the hours I've spent fiddling my computer to get RB3 to run right. I bought Kess's Full Canvas Jacket on spec, I'd go for this as well.

There are a LOT of people out there, programmers, artists, historians, etc. who have put 1000's of hours into modding RB3 and other sims, there should be a way to get them interested in providing content for KOE.

#1392134 - 08/11/04 07:37 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 6,406
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Tom I sent you a pm.

#1392135 - 08/15/04 12:16 PM Re: Knights Over Europe Poll  

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"You do not have permission to vote in this poll."

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