Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
#1391324 - 04/21/04 05:33 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 83
JG1Hautz_J10 Offline
Junior Member
JG1Hautz_J10  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 83
Germany!
S!

It's interesting to see what different folks feel would make the "ultimate sim."
I'm not too impressed by bells and whistles.
I think a lot of flight-sim players feel more detail=a better sim. That's not always true.
There are a lot of limitations in translating the experience of flight into the average players living room. How well a sim does this is a key factor. The degree of ease in interacting in the enviroment is as important, if not more so, than the level of detail.
Put in the context of a war simulation there are a lot of game factors involved, such a a good and interactive campaign.
Red Baron is a good game, with a lot of heart, that has endured due to any number of factors. It doesn't have the best graphics, and in stock form a not too accurate FM. It does offer a pretty good campaign, a good MMP enviroment, and has been fun to play for a long, long time.
I have IL-2, FB, and now AEP. They are stunning in their level of detail and in-game options. I have a FFB joytick, TIR, I have any number of controllers that'll drop my flaps, change my prop pitch and radiator settings. For all that do I feel IL-2 is a "better" simulation? Hmm, I'm not sure. I like Il-2, no doubt, but to quote a German friend, I find it somewhat "geschmacklos," or tasteless, and not meant in the manner of a bad joke you tell while drunk at aunt Ethel's 95th birstday party.
I guess it depends on what we mean by simulation. Is it just how an airplane feels, or how fast it climbs? Is it the experience of flight, or in the realm we speak of, the experience of war?
A simulation should draw us in, make us forget for a few hours that we're sitting in our computer chair and let us, to some degree, experience something we cannot or will not experience first hand. The fact that I can see my wing ribs when the facbric tears on my wings might be cool, but does it enhance the experience?
I like cool graphics as much as the next guy, I guess I just feel that some of the newer games, or should I say sims, lack something.

Hautz

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1391325 - 04/21/04 09:14 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
FlyXwire Offline
Member
FlyXwire  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
St.Charles, Missouri U.S.A.
Good words and thoughts Hautz!

Perhaps you're speaking a bit about nostagia here?

As time goes by, and we grow to know things in greater detail and with greater clarity, they no longer seem mystical to us like they once appeared. PC Simulations have not really been around for that many years, but what fond memories we still have of those first magical experiences at simming or flying online for the first time!

They say you can never recapture the magic of your youth (or that first time), well we can also never recapture our initial fascination with our first PC gaming experiences either, at least this is how I personally feel about reflecting on the past.

Yet, we can still be impressed by greater immersion and in-depth coverage into a subject, and there will always be new things to learn and discover about history too.

I think we've reach a moment in this thread where we move forward in our thinking, or we remain stationary reflecting on the past. Perhaps I've put forward some concepts here on how to incorporate greater immersion and more in-depth coverage into the next generation of combat flight sims, specifically with KOE in mind. These ideas are not all mine exclusively, but a lot of the integration is, and I'm certainly more than willing to flesh out my thinking, which I believe I have.

I'm certainly willing to contemplate the conceptualizing of others here too, if they are willing to bare forth in detail their own thinking. Making generalized statements that KOE should be like IL-2, or that the sim needs one hundred planes minimum, or that AI should be better than Red Baron really offers nothing of substance to consider. The where, and the how, and the why is what makes up the meat of anyone's argument. If there's nothing to fathom beyond an initial claim, or if when pressed there's no substance or relevance to substantiate a position.............well then way make it?

I'll give time to those involved here to put forward in clarity and depth the reasoning behind there opinions.

If none is forth-coming, then I'll assume that no great reasoning was involved in their effort, and we'll move on.

#1391326 - 04/21/04 09:44 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,188
Mahoney Offline
Member
Mahoney  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,188
Twickenham, London, UK
OK, I'll just make the one post and try to keep it brief. Basically, the first requirement of a sim is that it captures the imagination. In imagination terms, the Battle of Britain is a self-contained entity. It has a distinct beginning (the fall of France) and it can have a distint end (Germany calls off the attacks/Germany invades). Say "we are simulating the Battle of Britain" to someone and they instantly know what you mean.

Say "we are simulating WWI air combat" to someone and they immediately think of a lengthy survey. The very words "World War I" encourage people to think of a long, stalemated process with at most steady incrememntal changes; nothing so cut and dried as a 3 month campaign with a clear cut start and end. Say "we're simulating the air battle at Cambrai" and you'll get blank looks.

Again, sell a BoB sim to an American and he knows perfectly well what he's getting & that he'lll have to fly RAF or German. Sell a WWI sim to an American and tell him he can't fly American? Or for the Lafayette squadron? Or sell it to me and tell me I can't fly a Camel for the RFC? One of the major selling points of a WWI sim is that it can appeal to a large number of nationalities; in RB3D I can be British, American, French, German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealander. And that's before any Italian, Austrian, Russian, Turkish etc add on.

If you're going to cover all of those bases via your method, you're going to end up with a similar campaign to the RB3D/BoB style "fly for any squadron you want" one anyway.

I flew and loved FCG, thought it was much better than RB3D, but I hated its campaigns, which were essentially what you suggest. I felt trapped the whole time by the game boxing me in. That was why after a year or so I switched to RB3D - which I still play. Much prefer the freedom to join any squadron I want at any time I want. And I can't see why this should involve any loss of immersion - there's no reason why a campaign engine shouldn't be fully historically realistic and give the best of both worlds. RB3D had (needless) limitations like only having 256 predefined aces and 256 squadrons, but really you could have any number you want.

Anyhoo, I have my own ideas about an ultimate WWI simulation. I'm going to try and put something resembling them together, on the off chance that I win the lottery and can bring it to completion one day!

Rob

#1391327 - 04/21/04 03:14 PM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
Neal Offline
Member
Neal  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
It's entirely up to the original design. If a tightly focussed sim means never being able to change squads or sides, or in the whole game or even in a single campaign to not be able to see more than 8 or even 12 different plane types (you might not by coincidence but it's the ability that counts) then I don't much care if I can talk to the mechanics or get out of a shot down plane and run for cover... it won't last on my machine if I even bought it at all.

If I have a sim with 200 plane models and none of them are good with a lousy non-immersive campaign then even photo qulity graphics won't cut it for me.

If the AI is total crap then I'm out due to health problems and a poor connect cutting my online fun to bits.

There are fundamental design matters that make and limit scope at the same time but you have to draw lines or you have nothing. And I am sure that Aspect has already done that unless they've only made models and a render engine that includes some kind of terrain and the rest is TBD aka speculation aka smoke. If models, maps and render limit focus and what can be included then I don't have a lot of hope for any ultimate simulation. Besides, Ultimate does not suggest a small scope in any way to me.


Neal

#1391328 - 04/21/04 11:48 PM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
FlyXwire Offline
Member
FlyXwire  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
St.Charles, Missouri U.S.A.
I understand what you guys are saying, but in-depth scope doesn't mean limited exposure, it means a targeted and focused exposure in my way of thinking.

Here's a thought.............why map endless miles of monotonous trenchlines to serve only as the potential background for aerial encounters? Why not create a highly detailed environment where you plan the sim's combat to take place?

The idea is to create actual sectors of the Front where high intensity combat will and did occur, the combat in these areas being based on featured combatant Squadrons, both friendly and enemy which were historically active along this section of the lines during distinct periods of service.

This is like recreating the battles as recorded in a unit history of a particular formation, and in a degree of coverage that will simulate in high accuracy each unit's encounters with the enemy.

Let me give a brief historical example of how this concept would work in a WWI combat air sim. My example will be based on the Caporetto offensive launched by the combined forces of Germany and Austria in October 1917 in Northern Italy. At the onset of the offensive six German divisions and nine Austrian divisions quickly broke through the Italian defenses in the area, pushing the enemy back 70 miles from the initial front lines. Faced with a potential collapse of the Italian Front, the Allies dispatched five British and six French divisions to reinforce Italy, along with five RFC Squadrons, No 28 (Camels), No 34 (RE8s), No 42 (RE8s), No 45 (Camels), and No 66 (Camels), and later in March 1918 six F2Bs would also arrive to reinforce No 28 Squadron, and later form the nucleus of No 139 Squadron.

On the opposing side Germany had deployed three Jastas, Nos 1, 31, and 39, flying Albatros D. IIIs & Vs, plus a few Fokker D.VIs. These Squadrons patrolled the Front and protected the seven Flieger-Abteilungen formations conducting artillery observation and reconnaissance duties (DFW C.V and Rumpler C.IV aircraft). Later the Germans would reinforce the offensive power of the operation by bringing in KG4, comprising three Staffeln equipped with AEG G.IVs. In addition to these named German units, a number of Austrian Fliks fielding the Oeffag-built Albatros D.IIs and the excellent D.III, along with Aviatik D.I scouts were active in the battle, supported by 2-seater formations of Brandenberg and Lohner C.Is, and Lloyd C.III aircraft.

Of course Italian forces were fielding the Nieuport 17, SPAD 7, and Hanriot HDIs at this time along with heavy Caproni bombers, and various 2-seater formations.

This then sets the stage for a one year air campaign which was fought over a distinct sector of the Front, involving limited formations which fielded a limited variety of aircraft types (but not too limited).

During the protracted struggle on the ground, a number of German and British Squadrons were withdrawn from the battle to reinforce operations on the Western Front.

Now does this sound like an interesting premise for staging a WWI aerial campaign, for both single and multiplayer formats?

Actual Allied and Central Powers Squadrons were involved, while flying operations took place over a contained area of the Front, and for a distinct period of duration. The combat history exist to replicate, the battle area can be recreated in high detail, and with any number of those actual Squadron(s) involved, if not all the British and German units..........or more.

Campaigns such as this existed throughout the protracted struggle of the war, with the aerial operations over Verdun, the First Battle of the Somme, or those in support of Operation Michael as being particularly applicable! Of course the German campaigns waged by the Zeppelins, and its strategic bombers, along with the British Strategic Air Force could be wholly self-contained material for use in this in-depth, unit based simulation concept.

The point is to determine the campaigns to be treated, and then to build the Squadrons to be featured in the combat...............it's all simple, sweet, and can be very exact and in-depth, granted it's all done with the highest attention being paid to quality of presentation (which btw has always meant more to me than just making fancy graphics).

At this stage it's all just a concept idea for KOE (or for future WWI combat flight simulation), but this exact format seems to make up a good part of the design plans behind the 1st-Person shooter Brothers In Arms, and to a limited extent to that in Call of Duty. I believe it would work for WWI aerial simming too. Besides, I've got other ideas that integrate right into the concept to create a whole-sim build approach, but that'll have to wait for another thread!

#1391329 - 04/22/04 04:06 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
Neal Offline
Member
Neal  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
If the sim allows user made maps and objects to be included then they will get free focus. Ditto for medals, uniforms, faces, dialog trees, immersive scenes, all the detail people can think up as long as there's links/ways to use it with documentation and examples, maybe some support via a forum. If that can happen then Aspect focussing on a small area won't be a long term problem. Fan sites, forums and mod groups will carry it from there.

If the basic sim has as many tools as possible or is a tool in itself then the product will gain community support that makes it worth far more than any small company, or any company indeed can afford to sink into it. The mods of RB3D, EAW and sims like SDOE should be all the proof needed. Had EAW been more open it would have been even bigger with better sales clear through. Dropping it the way that Microprose did was a mistake when they could have improved and expanded it into a line for a fraction of the effort it took to make the base sim. People still buy and play it but it hit the bargain bin way too soon and never got followed up properly.


Neal

#1391330 - 04/22/04 10:00 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
FlyXwire Offline
Member
FlyXwire  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
St.Charles, Missouri U.S.A.
I absolutely agree Neal, and by not only enabling the KOE community to grow the sim's content and its focus over time, but that Aspect might have designed in expandability from the beginning, and will have planned on taking an active role in offering add-on "campaign" packs too, to keep the game fresh!

It would be nice to know more details about KOE, but in the meantime there's nothing wrong with storming on ideas, and discussing views on "best design practices" and the like. \:\)

#1391331 - 04/22/04 07:47 PM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
Neal Offline
Member
Neal  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
I think that the best we can do is say like;

We really hope the sim will be expandable.

We really hope that the community will be bale to add more than the usual content of skins but maybe not FM's and DM's.

Given expandability and a commitment towards future expansion we will understand and support an initial release of less material and have many suggestions of how we see that may be done.

-----------------------------------------

This thread has partly been about how many of us will get on the understanding and support of initially less material, in my view. But then it's not just been this thread and this thread didn't start that way so my feeling is that as much of the community that's even here has not fully reached a consensus, but we are close to a majority.


Neal

#1391332 - 04/22/04 09:09 PM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
FlyXwire Offline
Member
FlyXwire  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
St.Charles, Missouri U.S.A.
Yes, we are getting closer to an understanding if not a consensus about what "content" we would like to see in KOE.............I'm not proposing we get less from KOE, but instead that we get more from the focused coverage that is included in the sim.

This calls for more in-depth development of the content that is covered, and also allows for a greater degree of development of the sim's game mechanics and perhaps allows for the inclusion of a few new game features too.

#1391333 - 04/23/04 01:01 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
Neal Offline
Member
Neal  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
What you envision may go beyond the already laid foundations in terms of interactive detail. It's also maybe calling for a lot of work on non-flight related scenery depending on how it's to be done.

Will the interaction be done as 2D cutscenes and displays? Or scripted 3D? Anything with more freedom will require support for that freedom be it conversation or freedom of movement.

Granted that by now there must be basic FPS libraries that would allow players to move about the airfield, the integration of one into the code would also require making a base and filling it with objects and AI's unless it's a ghost field. It would be a draw for a while at least and really good immersion to walk to and from your plane, eat and drink with the other pilots while telling stories and jokes, mostly ribald if I had my way, but then there would need to be bars, taverns, and any place you land would need running room. While I can think of ways to generate and populate such (think D&D random encounters and ground derived from the game maps) the work to make it all would be heavy and no cheap purchasable FPS toolbox is going to cover all that with a reasonable distanced view nor without pre-generated "rooms". Maybe in a few more years someone will marry land and air in a fashion that doesn't leave one or both so arcade it's not funny, like that online WW2 attempt.


Neal

#1391334 - 04/29/04 12:59 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
FlyXwire Offline
Member
FlyXwire  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
St.Charles, Missouri U.S.A.
Jasta leader Rudolph Stark fleshes-out my Squadron campaign concept nicely I think:

Our people are worried about the future. We have learnt very little about the situation. Every morning we get a report on the position of the front lines, as far as the staff know it, and in the evening we get the official communique. That is all; if we want to know anything more, we must find it out over the telephone or go and look for ourselves. Moreover we really do not need to know much; we just fly and fight in the way we are used to. No official communique can alter our mode of life. The three Staffels comprising our group work in an alternation that never varies. Two hours flying, two hours rest or free hunting, two hours to stand by. And so it goes on from dawn to dusk. Between times we have a few special missions such as escort duty, contact patrols when our infantry are attacking and mass flights in squadron formation when the air is thick with enemy machines.

We do not ask what else is happening in the world; we simply do our duty and fly. We have a world of our own, which is so large and beautiful that we need no other.

#1391335 - 04/29/04 05:54 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
Neal Offline
Member
Neal  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
That kind of immersion can come through pre and post mission presentations of cutscenes, dialog and text whether shown as diaries, letters, posted wall or chalkboards, etc. (Allowing the player to keep a reviewable diary accessable outside of flying would be really good as well.) All of those can be provided via a campaign generator given the presentation hooks in the sim engine. All take imagination and time which again leads to 3rd party and modder participation being a good way to game expansion rather than having the sim maker have to generate the material which would stop and so limit the life of the sim.


Neal

#1391336 - 04/29/04 10:29 AM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
FlyXwire Offline
Member
FlyXwire  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
St.Charles, Missouri U.S.A.
How much interest is there in transforming KOE back into Red Baron anyway?

Maybe it's a time again for a Save Our Sim campaign, but let KOE shine on its own merits, ok!

#1391337 - 04/29/04 06:13 PM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
Neal Offline
Member
Neal  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,657
So the previous campaign to cut the number of planes and maps, etc, in order to save Aspect a lot of work was why for? It is seeming like so they can pour in even more work on a merge the flight sim with a not terribly limited FPS for immersion sake? This is sounding like a congressman working over a budget for savings which then get spent on his own favorite projects.

I guess you have a real woody of hate for RB. The thing is that it has a lot of good points and some bad ones. No way I want the bad ones. Yeah way I want the parts that work although I don't want them done the same way as before, I want user addons to the point of active or sequenced code in the way of mission generation or external control of event spawning as well as presentations, log analysis and more presentations. And FYI, FX, I've done the equivalent as paid work before only it wasn't for games, I do know wtf I'm writing about.

Any product maker only has so much time and effort they can put into a project. I'd rather Aspect put it into those parts that the users are not supposed to touch, a limited amount of the parts the community can add to as well as modify and there is an active community that can do all that for a long time to come. RB missed out on this even with the mods available and yet look how long it has stayed in use.

If Aspect can add an FPS dimension without a lot of work then fine but I doubt it... are you going to see the individuals on the ground as you come in to land? Have you any idea what that degree of detail will do to map sizes unless you have small islands of detail in large areas of not? Or maybe the FPS part and the aerial part don't mix, you just shift from one to the next?

Yeah, let KoE stand on it's own. Threads like this makes me glad they don't come posting. It shows they have the sense to stick with the design they started with.


Neal

#1391338 - 04/29/04 08:54 PM Re: Ultimate Simulation...............  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
FlyXwire Offline
Member
FlyXwire  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,080
St.Charles, Missouri U.S.A.
No reason to get political, unless you're running to be Mayor of the forum or somethin'.

Also, I'm sure members of the KOE staff read these threads, and so the introduction of ideas and concepts is more for they're interest than for your approval Neal.

I'm sure they can judge on their own which discussions are of interest, and which are not!

Does anyone have a problem with that, or are we again going to waste another six months here?

Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0