Well makes sense to me, no reason to get upset about a good idea (besides we've already seen multi-crewable KOE aircraft anyway):

And to this question......absolutely not (quite the opposite, see my quoted passages above):

The nuance of the concept is that designers (modders too) just wouldn't have to high-detail render the aircraft models of the strictly AI-only Squadrons that's all........saves on build time too!

Hey this sounds good:

I thought you might like to see some of how this conversation might look in-game.......no it aint John Wayne, it's YOU NEAL!!!

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TAAfAw8Xz...468600634445984[/img]

Actually you're coming around Neal, and I like the way you're starting to take this all seriously now..............and seeing the possibilities!

Oh, and don't take "NO WAY NEAL" too seriously though...........it's just a joke man!!!

Neal, I would rather not speak too much about creating another WWI sim in here, so I answered your post in the BoB forum:
http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=40&t=007460

All this mental gymnastics is fine but at the end of the day no matter what the sim is or how well it simulates the life of a pilot ... the biz is going to ask "Is it going to sell ?".

I am sure the KOE folks have asked themselves this question many times and adjusted the feature set of KOE accordingly.

I can tell you one thing though - a sim that has a highly detailed but extremely narrow focus won't sell many units. The IL2 model has a lot of merit and has proven itself in the marketplace. Hence we have two further guaranteed sims in the pipeline from 1C:Maddox.

Let's hope KOE follows the same model as the IL2 franchise.

If the game engine leaves hooks and room for focussing then later developments will be able to make use of those without spagetti-ing the code.

What they actually do is up to them.


Neal

"We must be seeing DX9 finnaly in games, This would be cool if they could make a WW1 game like 1942 simm."

Give BF1918 a try..it's a mod for BF1942, and fun. There is another mod in the works also, called, "The Great War."

Hautz

I forget, is BF1942 a pay to play game or out of the box?

OOTB if I recall.

Neal S!
This is part of a reply in another post but it says re FCG-

"But the only ( only, says he) thing that FCG needs is Falcon 4 or IL2 standard terrain graphics; and TrackIR useability.
The Single missions and "Campaign " are still the best of the type Borton describes. The mission builder is unbelievable for creating randomness of where and by what you are attacked.
The planes and FMs are brilliant."

How long do you think reviewers spend on evaluating a sim? Before declaring it dead!

Maybe I should hunt up a copy, it'd be cheap if I could find one.


Neal

I'm wondering how you choose to support this opinion RAF74_Vicious:

In fact I believe your following passage contradicts this assertion:

Is not the Battle Of Britain one of these new retail ventures in the 1C:Maddox pipeline?

The Battle of Britain, a limited aerial campaign that ran for a handful of months in the summer of 1940, with bascially two fighter types on a side, battling over the success or failure of the German effort to reduce the air defence of the Island in preparation for invasion?

A German assault on Great Britain which was waged by traversing the Channel (or the N. Sea) from territory along the coast of occupied Europe, by aerial squadrons comprised of limited aircraft variety?

How many times has the Battle Of Britain been featured as a sim, or as a free-standing sim campaign?

Was Rowan Interactive's Battle Of Britain a grave commercial failure? Why would 1C:Maddox contemplate following the same coverage of the Battle Of Britain if it makes no marketing success?

The assertion here is that you must have more than Hurcs and Spits (throw in the Battle if you like), Bf 109s and 110s, Stukas, He 111s, Ju 88s, and Flying Pencils to make a viable sim that anyone would want to buy!

So how many Battle Of Britain sims have there been?

There's also been exclusive add-on packs covering the campaign that people have been willing to shell their money out for too!

In fact, the air war on the Western Front during the Great War was not unlike the Battle Of Britain, only in that the roles were reversed, and it was the Allies who continually pushed across No Man's Land (instead of the Channel) into German airspace to conduct offensive operations.

Sim design today is all about quality and immersion, of which the IL-2 franchise exemplifies this approach! In my opinion, it's not about the quantity of the sim experience, but the quality of the experience, and that expandability over time will guarentee contiunued growth!

One last thing that I'd like to say is that this discussion comes too late to probably have any pertinence to KOE anyway, because we lost a good half a year arguing about one hundred plane minimums, uber-rotary fighters, and conspiracy therories by historians (and fans) to deny Germany it's aerial victory during the Great War!

One thing I truely regret is the awful waste of time it all was, and the fact that meaningful discussion on this forum came to a standstill!

If and when Aspect's publisher brings online it's own website and forum in the future, perhaps we'll be able to approach our discussions about KOE, and WWI aviation in general, with a little more deference for one another.............

You can buy it here:

http://www.rochnet.net/acatalog/Home_Page_Flight_Simulators_D_H_5.html

Allow me to submit this link to PC.IGN's recent preview of Brothers in Arms (since we've been talking about it here anyway):

Brothers In Arms Preview

Oh, and here's an interesting quote from the reviewers preview summation:

When Brothers in Arms was announced a few days back, the generally reaction in the IGN office was "whoop-dee-doo, another World War II shooter," but after seeing the game in action, it looks like it could well be that next level of WWII shooter we've all been waiting for. Whether Brothers in Arms can reach that plateau remains to be seen, but we're definitely looking forward to playing the game and seeing if it lives up to the promise.

Sometimes pretty picture can speak a thousand words............if you know what you're looking for!

Fly: the man quite clearly stated that it's potential is TBD. It may be the next level ... or it may be another WWII shooter with prettier pictures - and wounds that don't matter, and ballistics that don't matter, and AI that isn't ...

Now it may turn out to be the greatest thing since toilet paper. if it is, I'll gladly buy it, but IMHO that is still TBD. Until such a time that somebody can talk to ballistics modelling, wound modelling, AI, and a host of other game features, I'm not going to get terribly excited over a pretty picture or two.

Bob is almost unique in this regard, which is why it has been done so often. As you point out it was a very specific period in which a limited number of aircraft took part.

WWI has no similar period, certainly not in the last two years which KOE will obviously include. The whole period was characterized by a multitude of aircraft with overlapping service that created an ebb and flow of advantage/disadvantage. It does not lend itself well to the type of treatment possible with BoB.

Pat is right on both counts.

And, anyone who thinks that Oleg's BoB will stay at that battle raise you hands, claws, glasses, whatever.

You're right Pat, there's no way to determine the excellence of a game from pictures alone.........except that great effort is being made to get it as real looking as possible (whatever that may suggest about the game designer's efforts).

Actually, my interest in Brothers in Arms concerns it's stated design concept, which I can easily identify with...........it's simulating combat from the level of interaction that most soldiers experienced it from..........through their own eyes.

Not through the eyes of historical hindsight.

Not through the eyes of a conflict's war planners.

Certainly not from the "big picture" view downward (unless one is at the top of the chain of command), but from the unknowing view of the average combatant engaged in something that leaves indelible marks on one's character, if the soldier is lucky enough to survive the experience!

This is what I'd like to see simulations strive for today..........to create the tumult, confusion, struggle, and yes........fear that surrounds combat at it's most basic level!

The bottom line is that wars are fought by individual soldiers who are amalgamated into hirearchical structures, which are controlled by an echelon of command, and everyone followed orders from above!

The combat airman does not organize grand strategy.......he is merely a very small element in it's execution!

The airman fights in tactical combat following the orders of engagement as laid out in his mission brief and/or by his immediate commanding officer.

The combat airman fights his war from his aircraft, which is attached to a unit, and in this way he serves to fulfill the mission requirements as set forth by his superiors.

Therefore the combat airman performs a role not expressly unique unto itself, but which is incorporated into the workings of a larger military structure, and for this reason the combat airman's unique experience comes merely from the fact that it is his own personal experience alone.

Again, as I've empasized before, combat airman fought their war attached to a tactical element (mostly part of a Squadron-sized unit), and this is where our experience of WWI simulated aerial combat should start.

Did some airmen serve in only one squadron throughout their service at the Front.........yes!

Were some airmen reassigned to another Squadron(s) during their wartime experience..........yes!

Is this the level of simulated air combat that sims should strive to replicate...............it's up to you what you want to enjoy, obviously, but if you insist that more planes, and bigger maps, and more scope means "more real", then I strongly disagree, because you're not flying as a WWI airman, but as some pulp fiction hero from a cheap novelette!

Might that be fun.............certainly!

Is that real simulation.............certainly not!

(IMO)

P.S. Do you guys really believe that the Battle Of Britain is unique in the annals of air combat history as one of the only limited duration, self-contained air campaigns?

Air Campaigns are often comprised of single Operations, which reflect distinct phases of the greater military effort!

If you believe that WWI air combat operations involved one large amorphous struggle for the sky........well then I'm beginning to understand your point of view here finally!

GAME ON!!!

Man, I can't get this statement out of my mind folks:

So is this the basis and understanding for the "big picture" WWI sim design you guys are wanting?

Please explain this game concept to us then?

How does this "multitude of aircraft with overlapping service that created an ebb and flow of advantage/disadvantage" work in a WWI simulation design?

How many "multitudes" does this need?

How many ebbs and flows should be created?

Planning on modeling the entire Western Front, England, and Italy too?

Will there be a maritime avaition component along the N.Sea?

You'll want the bombing campaign of the Strategic Air Force right (oh sorry, I mentioned a distinct aerial campaign, didn't mean to do that), of course!

The night operations too...........certainly!

The Zeppelin raids, ok!

The strategic German bombing operations (sorry) of course!

How about those active combat Squadrons based in England, right, they're in!

All the Anti-Aircraft Battalions, Balloon Companies, Forward Warning Post?

Moving trenchlines to reflect the "ebb and flow" of the greater ground war?

Tommies over the top, Jerry's on the run?

We'll have artillery spotting missions to fulfill in real time I suppose, and photo recon too, along with the standard bombing of ground targets.............cool!

Destructible cities, towns, bridges, windmills..........gotta have those windmills.

Will the aerodromes look cool?

Will you have the training facilities, and the rear bases so we can shuttle aircraft back for repairs to the depots also?

Muddy airstrips, and snow, lots of neat clouds and sun effects?

How about the wind, and windsocks that rotate with the changes of direction/flow?

Will we have pilots and aircrews that move, and weapons that cycle, or spit brass, and rotating drums?

Will weapons jam...........will we see ourselves in the cockpit.......unjamming, firing flares, signaling?

Interactive cockpits with movable controls that exhibit stiffness in flight?

Engines that run rough or quit on take off?

Blood...........we've got to have blood right!

And lot's of hi-res skins on all this multitudes of aircraft...........yeeha!

Medals for valor?

There's so many important things to do, but I can't wait for this Mega-WWI-Sim to come out!

When is it coming out btw?

Please explain this multitudes, ebb and flow, overlapping, adavantage/disadvantage thing to me, because it all sounds wonderful!!!

Earth-shattering in fact!!!

I give .. you win. You are simply vastly more willing to type than I am. C'yall.

Quality over Quantity there Pat. You have the quality.