Droops called my attention to kill claims in a previous thread. I did some research on my own. Got an idea.

What kind, if any, of kill confirmation will KOE have? Would you get the kill if you shoot him down on your side of the lines? Or will it be " Unconfirmed by army means unconfirmed."

Would you have a chance that no one saw it? How about if you are deep behind enemy lines?

That happened to me in IL2FB. I chased a pair of German bombers across the lines to their home base. Got them both, but got no credit.

Many pilots kept their own, private scores. Why not us?

I, for one, would like to see that. I would like to see the chance that you don't get a confirmed kill.

It would be interesting:

1. Planes shot down over own lines or near the front are confirmed (by wreckage in first case, by infantry in second).

2. Planes shot down over enemy lines are confirmed if you have one or more squadron mates with you and they make it back. Victories not witnessed are probables for the British, nothing for the Germans. Exception: if your last name is Bishop you not only get credit but you also get the VC ... (ducks and covers )

3. For the allies, planes that were damaged by multiple victors result in shared kills. For the Germans, one kill on credit to one pilot.

OOC's would be a cast iron b!tch. In RL OOCs could mean anything from the enemy pilot ran away to the enemy pilot was killed but the crash was not witnessed (IMHO more often the former than the latter). I'm not sure that this sort of fuzzy logic would be easy to implement in a computer game.

IMHO the real problem is the fact that most inaccuracies involved overclaiming and not underclaiming. I'm not sure that I would want overclaims in my record (in fact, I'm quite sure that I wouldn't).

Also, per my Billy Bishop snipe, yes, I am aware that MvR, Voss, and every other ace who's claims have ever been studied has questionable and sometimes outright wrong victories in their tallies. Tis' the nature of the beast. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to make a smart assed remark .

Why sould there be problems with kill confirmation in a sim?

If you're wanting historically based ambiguity, then I guess it could be programmed, but why overload the code?

Just asking.

Immersion and realism my dear sir

PatWilson

I think that the kill sharing was just a WW2 thing. It could be a WW1 thing too.

I remember that in the book Aces, and I have to go on memory, as I bought it, lost it, bought it again, and you guessed it, lost it again

Anyway, it tells how the French WW2 pilots were given full credit in the early days. If four of them engaged a target and killed it, they each got a kill. IIRC, it was a morale boosting thing.

My word, five posts and no trouble......


Awwww crap, I just jinxed it

I guess you guys are mostly talking about the single player campaigns - but I'm more concerned with multiplayer .

In terms of kill confirmation, if the opponent is aiming for a headshot and sees on their screen "Kill of X awarded to Y" or something like that, then obviously they won't follow the plane down as it spins out of control. But also the reverse - if the victim has no other option but to fake spinning in a downward spiral out of control, then it will be pretty obvious that they're faking it.

I think this has been mentioned here before - someone said that a previous game let you do this.

I've only played Red Baron, so I never got to do this. I don't mind if KOE will have it either way, but it sounds like a neat tactic for bad flyers like myself.. hehe!

-FranksValli

I used to pull that fake alot in TSR's Dawn Patrol. The board game that is.

The only problem is that once in a while you could go into an uncontrollable spin, until you went splat.

If Aspect doesn't allow the PK message, it could work here.

It's all about terra firma don't you think?

If a plane is forced-down or destroyed, it ends up back where gravity dictates. Call it rather simplistic, but in terms of PC programming, what goes up must come down, and for any adjudication system to assign victories equally irregardless of national affiliation, what ends up as a force-down or a destroyed AC on the ground should/could be counted as a kill.

Having a simple yet equal way of judging kills/victories for online play is essential in my mind.

I'm not against historical methods for keeping tally in the single player game, or the campaign game............it could be immersive (in a frustrating sort of way). However, for online action I would think that a system of equal and fair victory assessment would be important.

Don't ya think?

Given some of what we've been told of the Single Player campaigns, I think having confirmations fail to come would indeed add to the immersion, AND to the historical lesson of the sim.

I'm for it!

Now, where's my plate of cheese and my scotch? (When I was in Greece, they were VERY civilized... Evenings on the apartment balcony with Shepherd's Cheese and honey, cucumber slivers, maybe some pastries, and a bottomless bottle of Raki, or Tsecoudia... Ahhh...)

Fly

My fault, I meant kill confirming for single player campaign.

For MMP, I would like no kill message or scream that tells everyone I killed you or vice versa.

Wing

How about 100yr old scotch, and cheese to match.

Damn, it's still civil in here

IronHand: As far as I am aware all western allies had shared kills. The British also had shared OOCs (heard a tale on the aerodrome about an entire flight of 9 sharing a victory each for a single OOC).

FlyXWire: Modeling the variations in scoring would be interesting, but IMHO definitely not high on my list. What I really want to avoid is getting credit for a plane that I damage and then crashes 30 minutes later. RB and IL2 both do this. If I am not within visual range I should not get credit. Also agree that online scoring should be consistent for both sides.

Thanks Pat

I suspected it, but I figured you would know more than I.

The getting credit for an enemy that you lose sight of is historical though. Many pilots had a probable upgraded to a kill weeks, if not months later. Don't know about the Great War though

And online scoring should be the same for both.
What I would like is a dead is dead option like the online campaigns in AEP.

But none of the above is a deal breaker.

A lot kills were confirmed by infantry & balloons. In some cases, the pilots never knew exactly happened to their targets. maybe an overlapping comfirm radius from fix emplacements along the no-man's land. confirmed kills on friendly territoty. 1 or 2 friendly a/c within the area of impact(all friendly(bombers/recon, etc)these must reach friendly territory at the end of the operational day) Kills awarded within days

If a moving front is possible, kills awarded if impact zone changes to friendly within days or a few weeks. Add in a number of conflicting claims, some settled by a flip of a coin or outside observer.

I've shot down a number of a/c in FB and not get credit, cant say I was pleased after watching them nose in and then return to find I scored zero

Why not something simple like a mission result when one returns to the aerodrome. You just have to wait till you get back to find out if a plane that spun down was a victory.

Keeps you guessing unless you see it go down flaming or follow it down to see it auger in.

I wouldn't blow my alt. just to confirm it.

Having no instant "**** killed by ****" banner would be nice. I always disliked that with Dawn Of Aces and other sims.

Of course that means padlock cannot happen though unless it is restricted by distance from the target. Otherwise one can figure out pretty quickly if they got it or not.

Never liked padlock anyway but that is a different debate.

S!

Kail

Me either, but better than you winggie stealing it from you

Or shooting through you to get it.

Dantes

I like padlock. But if the enemy flies into a cloud or drops below your nose out of sight, it should break. RB doesn't do it, IL2FB does. But there is an exploit for it though

Of course the AI is all seeing

In Winged Victory Yeates mentions that if a flight attacked an enemy aircraft and it crashed the pilots shared the kill if they had actually fired at it. However, it wasn't recorded as six kills if six aircraft attacked, but instead each pilot was given one-sixth of a kill.

Some fractional accounting to add to the confusion

And on the other side of the coin, if 20 gunners in a bomber formation were all shooting at the same aircraft, they all claimed it after it went down.

I imagine the intel guys had big bottles of Excedrin handy for times like that

:D

Better a smart assed one than a dumb assed one any day of the week

This has been a good discussion!

Nice topic Ironhand.

To the best of my knowledge, fractionals were not used in WWI (this is a WWII practice). Everybody got a victory. Now the British were certainly smart enough not to register 6 enemy losses, but each individual pilot could receive 1 victory to their total. This is why determining how many planes were destroyed by an allied squadron cannot be determined by simply summing the scores of the pilots.

To add to the confusion, it should also be noted that different squadrons made more or less use of shared victories. In some squadrons it was discouraged, while in others it was used to the fullest. Therefore scoring practices were not even entirely consistent from squadron to squadron.