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Oh, there's someone here with an agenda all right......

.....But it's not me, since I don't represent a software that's in competition with KOE.

The truth of the matter is that were KOE to come out with the same, or more than what RB has, interest in BoP, WwW & SDOE dries up & blows away, like a water puddle in the Texas desert.

Um, you do know that spamming a thread can get you banned, right?

S!

Wake me when KOE is released....zzzzzzzz

I think that Dantes has done a pretty good job of explaining things. I think its worthwhile to explain, somewhat briefly, why I initially pushed for 100 aircraft and why I'd accept less with the release of this game.

When you talk about WWII, most of the sims for that war concentrate on a particular front in a particular time period. Battle of Britian, Russian Front, etc. The number of aircraft in use by both sides is somewhat stable and the time frame is a bit more limited.

(I realize these are generalized statements but I think that they are broadly true.)

WWI is a bit different. Even if you concentrate on just the Western Front, the war's progression brings with it a constantly fluxuating variety of aircraft. Since the front doesn't change for most of that time, or at least very little, a WWI sim lends itself more readily to encompassing the entire war, rather than a bit of it.

When I was doing research for 17 Hours, I started to look at aircraft (planes) that served both land and sea on the Western Front, both combat and for training. For the entire war, the number was close to 500 IIRC. Taking a quick look at planes on other fronts and other nations, it seemed reasonable to see between 600 and 700 aircraft types (excluding zeppelins) used at some point during the war.

In that context, 100 aircraft types is only about 17% of the types used. Of course, this isn't a realistic comparison. A number of these types were produced in very small batches, sometimes five or less. Comparing the Otto pusher to, say, the Fokker DVII isn't really a valid comparison in terms of numbers or in terms of impact.

Yet its also important to remember that in 1915, 30-50 of a particular type showing up at the front was a big deal. By 1918 it would be hundreds of Camels or DVIIs, but in 1915 smaller numbers made a larger impact. This again demonstrates the changes in the evolution of the air war. Its also important to realize that there were fewer seaplanes than landplanes, so 15 of a particular seaplane type is a fairly big number.

When I started trying to narrow down the list to planes that made a reasonably important impact on the Western Front, both land and sea types, I came up with about 115. These were both scouts and multiple-seat aircraft from July 1915 forward which had fairly widespread use or were of some impact. If you're going to get the full flavor of WWI simming on the Western Front, these aircraft should be included. The rest, IMO, would be gravy.

But does this mean that a KOE without these aircraft in the initial release isn't worthwhile? No, so long as additions can be put into place later. Whether the community itself or the company, I don't care. I just want to make sure that both aircraft and fronts can be added into the sim and accomodated.

Droops

"But does this mean that a KOE without these aircraft in the initial release isn't worthwhile? No, so long as additions can be put into place later. Whether the community itself or the company, I don't care. I just want to make sure that both aircraft and fronts can be added into the sim and accomodated."


That is the way I feel about it too. I think this is key to the games overall commercial
success and acceptance in the flight sim community; more so than how many planes are included with the origional release. Not that I don't want to see every plane VH would like to see, because I would. But I don't think that demanding them in the initial release is a realistic objective. With limited time and money Aspect needs to stay focused on what will make this game a commerical success. This is the other key issue at this point. I just don't think that the addition of "obscure" German rotary aircraft will contribute significantly enough to that end to justify the time and labor it takes to include them all in the initial release. Besides, there are many other obscure aircraft that won't be included. Every plane flown in the war can't be included. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Hopefully with add ons,patches,sequels, mods that line will be moved or extended to encompass more of what the air war was all about.

And therein lies the problem........If KOE ships with a snapshot of time (which the evidence we have available suggests), we can kiss expanding the game later goodbye.

Say KOE ships with a window of July 1917 to EOW:

Now, you could make a CD that changes those dates from July 1917 to July 1915 and EOW to Novenber 1916, but if you try to ADD those dates to the already existing game, you'd have to radically alter the game engine.

......That is alot of work, and good luck getting it to happen. KOE might give us the tools to do it ourselves, but how many of us have a degree in advanced programing?

Now by contrast, if KOE ships with a flight time of July 1915 to EOW, then that's something we can work with......A good foundation.

I want to avoid, as much as possible, "Insert CD Numer 7 Now" or "Add Patch 53 now".

When you're low on fuel, you're plane looks like swiss cheese, and your being chased by 3 Nieuports, those "obscure" germany rotaries look pretty damn good coming to your rescue!

......I almost had a religious experience when they came to my rescue in ROTJ.

AOTP expanded the game form 1945 to 46, no radical altering of game engine needed.

There is no evidence that KOE is one year only. Unless it is from Aspect, the only ones who know beyond any doubt, it is all speculation.

Add ons for IL2 FB, Medal of Honor, BF1942 have shown that it is viable. None of them required a radical altering of the game engine.

If Aspect has been looking at the flight sim market, they will have seen that quality FM/DM are wanted. Better 20 high quality models than 50 half baked ones.

They know that a campaign of substance is desired. Unlike F4, LOMAC, or any other of their ilk, a short campaign, unless well focused, will not find much favor.

And expandability will give KOE a much longer life. They know this. I doubt they will pull a RB3D and limit themselves. Remember, that campaign starts in Sep 1916. What happened to 1915?

For all anyone knows it could go from 1915 to 1919.

LoL!!! (Can you believe this guy?) I'm not the one TRYING to prove something here... YOU ARE! So why don't YOU back that website up VonHelton with CREDITABLE sources? Man have you EVER been to college? If you tried to PROVE something historical and show THAT website as the soul proof of your theory to your professor or a board, you would be literally LAUGHED out!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Prove ME wrong VonHelton. I am the sceptic here!! Not you... So PROVE me wrong...

For me the single most important element for a successful sim is having a dynamite campaign. A top quality dynamic campaign will make the game to a large degree. The next most important thing would be the damage model and the flight model. They both have to be good for the sim to be fun. The next would be a close call between content and detail. I want a beautiful looking sim but I also want a lot of content on the plate to keep me from shelving the game after a few months or weeks.

The number and type of flyable planes falls into the content catagory. It is important but not my most pressing issue. For detail, I imagine as an example, coming up on a two seater in my scout and being able to see the pilot and gunner turn their heads acknowledging my presence. I would like to see the gunner turn his gun on me and open fire. If I kill him I want to see him hit and slump over dead in the cockpit. Same with the pilot. If I get close enough I want to be able to target him specifically and see him slump over if I hit him.

I don't know if that kind of detail is really possible on the pratical level, but I would like to see that level of detail consistent through out the game.

Even if it is not that well detailed I will still be a happy camper if the campaign, damage model, and flight model are all top tier.