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#1390214 - 03/11/04 06:17 PM Relax .....  
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Moritz of JG1 Offline
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Based on Mat's 30 January correspondence posted by 'Toadvine' in Frugal's World and what I have seen, it appears that the Aspect folks have simply gone 'below periscope depth' to get the job done and meet the deadline. They have a publisher, and my guess, take it for what it is worth, there are various internal deadlines that need to be met so that announcements can be made with a product following in a reasonable amount of time after the announcements.

I took the liberty of pasting the 30 January note which orignated on another board, just to keet this crowd in the loop:

>>To: Duffy Sullivan
>Subject: Re: KOE

>Duffy:

Thanks for writing. Rest assured that "Knights Over Europe" isn't dead. We've set some pretty lofty goals for KOE and meeting them hasn't left us much time for anything else. We're also working with our publisher to create a proper KOE product page, when that goes up is largely their decision. We hope the community will understand and continue to be patient. We're working hard to ensure that KOE is worth the wait.

Thanks for your interest and support,

Mathew 'JP4' Herman
Producer
Aspect Simulations, LLC

That interview and the email are the only news I have to share..
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#1390215 - 03/11/04 11:44 PM Re: Relax .....  
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Clostermann Offline
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well there still hope i hope there publisher will relase it worldwide since i dont buy online.

#1390216 - 03/12/04 12:23 AM Re: Relax .....  
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FlyXwire Offline
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This one must have slipped under the radar:

So what\'s going on with KOE?

This e-mail is from a month ago!

KOE will get here when (and if) it gets here..........and not a moment too soon! \:D

#1390217 - 03/13/04 07:13 PM Re: Relax .....  

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This is much better than getting a half baked game by the end of the month.

;\)

#1390218 - 03/13/04 11:45 PM Re: Relax .....  
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I have always been in favor of the devs keeping a game in house as long as they need. Games that are rushed for whatever reason have a rushed feel about them. Take your time and get it right is my favorite policy. But not all developers, have that luxurious of a time frame. In fact most of them are working under very strict time allowances. People are in the development business to make a buck and time is money.

Then there is always the escape valve of patching. But I prefer that patching be kept to a minimum and the origional product be as complete as possible. I think most gamers would agree that waiting is better than receiving a buggy sim. I can sit tight with RB3D and all its upgrades and patches as long as need be. No problem waiting on Aspect here. But the publishers might have a different point of view.

#1390219 - 03/14/04 12:54 AM Re: Relax .....  
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FlyXwire Offline
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I thought I read that the publisher encouraged the release extension, but then maybe I heard it on the grapevine Toadvine? \:D

#1390220 - 03/14/04 06:52 AM Re: Relax .....  
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Toadvine Offline
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Why is it that games are released early? I am not in the game industry, but generally people with a financial investment are looking for a return on the investment as soon as possible. That pressure for a quick return is what I suspect is the most common reason for rushed titles.

I suppose the devs themselves would be willing to ship a game before it was "done" if they were strapped for cash, but I would think they would be the most willing to see the project completed before sending it out the door. I know I would if I were a dev and I was going to offer up my work to the world. I would not be willing to send it out until I was satisfied that it was the best I could do under the circumstances. You notice I didn't say "perfect", but the best I could do.

The money men; those who are responsible for getting the game out of the house and into the market place, which is the ultimate goal of the whole project, might have a slightly different point of view. Their labor is not the game per se, but the money they have invested in the game. So, there can be a conflict of interest if the game falls behind schedule. The money men want the game shipped ASAP while the devs want more time to wrap the game up.

As far as KOE goes, yea, I read that the publisher was willing to extend the time frame. So that is great! I am sure Aspect appreciates it. I really think that is the reason they aren't keeping us posted. The publisher gave them time and they want to make the most of it by staying focused on developing the game itself.

#1390221 - 03/14/04 12:39 PM Re: Relax .....  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Most likely Toadvine!

It's a shame when cost considerations outweigh quality considerations!

I see it everyday in my industry, to the point where essential equipment is not repaired or maintained, and to the detriment of quality manufacturing!

The operating principle of the huge corporation I'm employed with is that you pinch the pennies, but ignore the larger more expensive issues (and the effects this approach has on efficiency, warranty cost, and morale)...........basically the powers that be "think" ass-backwards!!! \:D

#1390222 - 03/14/04 03:50 PM Re: Relax .....  
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PatWilson Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
Most likely Toadvine!

It's a shame when cost considerations outweigh quality considerations!

I see it everyday in my industry, to the point where essential equipment is not repaired or maintained, and to the detriment of quality manufacturing!

The operating principle of the huge corporation I'm employed with is that you pinch the pennies, but ignore the larger more expensive issues (and the effects this approach has on efficiency, warranty cost, and morale)...........basically the powers that be "think" ass-backwards!!! \:D
It's always a balancing act, espescially for small startups. You need to get something out there to generate revenue. It has to be good or people won't come back, but at the same time, there is often not time or resources to make it perfect.

In KOE's case, this means probably fewer aircraft and a more limited campaign scope for the first time through. For instance, we might start things off with early 1917 and the Alb D.III, SPAD VII, andd Sopwith Pup. Late war scouts might be limited to the SPAD XIII, Camel, SE5a, and Fokker D.VII. Maybe a future add on will flesh things out earlier in the war, and another will do so for later in the war, much the same way that IL2 has done. IMHO the important thing for Aspect is to get the game features in place and produce a high quality product.

If the initial offering is top notch, people will accept the limitations, especially if there is a promise of support. If the initial offering is not good then let's pray that it's user modifiable, because that's the only thing that saved RedBaron II.


The lucky man is the man who leaves as little to chance as possible.
#1390223 - 03/14/04 04:10 PM Re: Relax .....  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Geez Pat, this is what I've been arguing (along with a few others for months)!!!

It's serves as the core rationale that a few of us here have maintained from the beginning, and has led to our disagreements with VH and to a lesser extent with Droops (the quality vs. quanity debate).

Quality and Immersion have been my "buy lines" for months, and the concept of modular build as epitomized by IL-2 was expressed as a good "business plan" approach very early in our conversations here.

Not to diminish the impact of your words or understanding, but it's about time! \:\)

#1390224 - 03/14/04 05:00 PM Re: Relax .....  

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As long as they stick to their guns like a 'cornered rat' they will do just fine.

Pun intended if you get it

;\)

:p

#1390225 - 03/14/04 08:51 PM Re: Relax .....  
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Trying to incorporate the entire air war on the western front for the entire course of the war in one initial offering is not pratical IMO.

I agree a better idea would be a series of installments that focus on certain areas or time frames. That way the quality of the game and the detail of the content would stand a far better chance of making the cut.

If you were to try and do the whole WWI air war experience from 1914 to 1918 on one installment, quality and detail would have to suffer. There is just too much content that needs to be included.

Look what Epic is doing with Unreal Tournament. They are making a career out of that one title! They are sticking with that one basic concept and improving and adding to it. It has become an on going project. Same idea with IL-2. they have a great foundation of the origional game to start with, then build on that with expansion packs and sequels.

I think that would be a good way to approach KOE. Look at it as a long term project delivered in segments over time. In other words expansion packs and sequels. That would be fine with me. I enjoy buying new games! \:\)

Otherwise how are we going to get all the detail and content we all anticipate on one game? RB3D did an admirable job of it, but look how much was really left out... It is too daunting of a task trying to do it all at once. Also, by receiving installments over time you get the benefit of the improved hardware like graphics cards and faster CPUs. So in theory the latter installments could be better than the ones before. The devs have a steady job and everyone is happy! \:D

#1390226 - 03/15/04 03:14 AM Re: Relax .....  

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If you ask for a lump of coal instead of candy at Halloween, don't be surprized if a lump of coal is all you get.

#1390227 - 03/15/04 03:57 AM Re: Relax .....  
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Toadvine Offline
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Actually, avoiding a lump of coal is what a series of installments would hopfully accomplish.

I am not opposed to content. The more included in the game the better. But I do think trying to cram it all on a single offering is taking a huge bite. There is a good chance Aspect would choke in the effort.

There is the possibility that one offering of KOE is all we will ever see. That there will never be a sequel or expansions. That would be the only secnario where trying to do get it all in one shot would be the way to go.

What is wrong with sequels for including added aircraft, front locations, troop movements, campaigns, etc.? It is not like I am promoting some kind of radical idea. It is a proven technique that works for both the devs and the gamers. Is scaling down the scope of the sim in order to improve detail and over all quality a ridiculous notion? Am not advocating never including all the content and detail we can imagine. I am saying do it in a series of releases rather than all at once. I think we would receive a better sim that way.

#1390228 - 03/15/04 11:10 AM Re: Relax .....  
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FlyXwire Offline
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Absolutely Toadvine..........and if the sim has open architecture too, for user-created builds, skins, sounds, squadrons, maps, etc.! \:\)

#1390229 - 03/15/04 02:18 PM Re: Relax .....  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Toadvine:
What is wrong with sequels for including added aircraft, front locations, troop movements, campaigns, etc.?
Because games have progressed quite a bit since RB Original.

You can add all the planes you want, but if the game engine doesn't recognize them, they sit on the ground like a fancy paperweight.

It took quite a bit of fancy footwork with the data files to get the Zeppelin slot working in RB, and you don't want to know how many failures I had before it finally started working!

Adding extra working slots to a computer game isn't easy. I know.......I did it in RB3D.

Typically, once a game is released, that crew moves on to other work, which means anything added later will be done by a crew that's just as clueless as you & me. Granted, they got the proper tools, but if you don't know where the other guys left off, it's just as bad.

Further, newer games have the pieces linked together. Change one aspect (no pun intended), and you will invaribly change something else, elsewhere in the game.

\:\(

#1390230 - 03/15/04 02:24 PM Re: Relax .....  

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If my Jasta is supposed to be flying Roland D2's, and we're stuck flying E3's, is that quality? Is that immersion?

If I'm a Bavarian pilot, yet I don't have any Bavarian medals to pin on my chest, is that quality? Is that immersion?

If my Jasta gets decimated in campaign because we lack the proper aircraft, is that quality? Is that immersion?

........Not from where I sit, bub.


#1390231 - 03/15/04 07:06 PM Re: Relax .....  

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I think this all points to it being more economically sound to NOT let user mods into the game. Better to keep a tight reign on things so as to be able to sell addons later.

Better for the company, better for the players, who don't get subjected to rampant cheating.

#1390232 - 03/15/04 07:32 PM Re: Relax .....  
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Quote:
Originally posted by VonHelton:
If my Jasta is supposed to be flying Roland D2's, and we're stuck flying E3's, is that quality? Is that immersion?

If I'm a Bavarian pilot, yet I don't have any Bavarian medals to pin on my chest, is that quality? Is that immersion?

If my Jasta gets decimated in campaign because we lack the proper aircraft, is that quality? Is that immersion?

........Not from where I sit, bub.

As long as there is a Bavarian add on pack coming .. (I like to fly Bavarian too \:\) )

Seriously, resources are limited, time is limited, and there is a limit as to what you will get for $50. If you think that you are going to get everything that was there in WWI then you will be disappointed. Something has to be cut. If you accept that then the only question becomes "what?".

For example, excluding the Bavarians is perfectly acceptable if you don't claim to support Bavarian careers. You might not like it but most people wouldn't really care. Okay, now you say the game is fatally flawed. Is it fatally flawed if the Italians and Austrians aren't in there? What about the Russians? Palestine? English channel front? At what point does it become acceptable?

You're not going to get the 300 odd types that flew combat in WWI. Ain't gonna happen. So what gets cut?

In the end the game has to provide a plausable experience for some segment of the war. IMHO there is nothing wrong, for insstance, with limiting the sim to British and Germans in Flanders of 1918 (sort of what Flying Corp did). As long as that's what the box says then that's fine. If it sells then more will come.


The lucky man is the man who leaves as little to chance as possible.
#1390233 - 03/15/04 10:34 PM Re: Relax .....  

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I totally reject that premise........

What you are creating with that is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Gaming companies need to hear that we want more. We have the technology now to create a WW1 sim the way it should be, but idiots getting on these boards & asking for 4 planes & a patch of grass isn't helping!!

Yea, it'll take longer to get what we want.......BIG DEAL.

....We're already waiting anyway!

As far as I'm aware, Aspect is freelance.......They aren't under the boot of someone like Sierra or Vivendi.

If I had to wait 6 more months to get the german aircraft that need to be in the game, so be it.

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