Dear KOE Staff, please IGNORE those individuals like FlyXwire, who insist Germany had very few early war rotary aircraft.

As you see above, Dan San's list shows clearly that they did.

Their inclusion is critical to the german side, and to exclude them like so many WW1 sims have in the past is a travesty.

Hey Franz List.......thanks for the publicity!!!

Don't say another word to me........

You got everyone on this board thinking I'm some kind of idiot or something, and frankly, I'm tired of it.

The majority of early war scouts, German or otherwise, were rotaries. In 1915 and early 1916 rotaries offered the best power to weight ratio. Later development of inlines made them the engine of choice for most scouts, although rotaries were still commonly used (Camel, Fokker DRI, late model Nieuports + others).

So yeas, Germany did have lots of early war rotaries, and in mid 1916 they were most definitely NOT all Fokker Eindeckers.

No one is saying that Germany didnt have many early-war rotaries...

But what most of us are saying is for time purposes and restraints model those for now that yeilded the greatest impact of the WWI air war.

Gentlemen! This is the war room, you can't fight in here!!

Hautz

........And watch as the german units in the game get SLAUGHTERED.

Sorry, not this time. Not only is it aggrevating, but it NEVER HAPPENED.

Not only did they have their own, but plenty of captured rotary aircraft as well.

As I stated earlier, the game needs to be set up so that if an allied plane lands well behind our lines mostly intact, we should be able to capture it, paint it up as we wish, & fly it.

.......And don't forget the Fokker D.V!!

Contrary to what has been said, it WAS NOT just a training aircraft! It saw combat with Jasta 5 & 6, and I just found out Jasta 4 had some as did some Naval & Marine Jastas, and I bet other front line units flew it in combat as well.

The Fokker D.V was built in more numbers than any other early german rotary aircraft, and was called nothing but good things.

Some sources claim the Fokker D.V was slow or less mauverable for its day. I found out that this was a BOLD-FACED LIE.

The plane was considered a "thoughbred racehorse" & a "wonderplane"!!

........That doesn't sound slow & unmanuverable to me!

Further, training units weren't given brand new aircraft, they were given hand-me-downs, so the D.V saw combat long before it was relegated to training duty.

Considering it was build in more numbers, I must assume it served in nearly every Jasta, even if it was just a "backup plane".

Also don't forget the SSW D.I & D.II, which was Germany's answer to the Nieuport types.

Of course the Fokker Dr.I.......

The Fokker D.VI is important for the Bavarian Units.

The Pfalz D.VII & D.VIII as well, and Paul Baumer flew the Pfalz rotaries ALOT, as did other famous german pilots.

SSW D.III & D.IV should be in there, as it was the first true interceptor.

Ernst Udet & Rudolph Bethold both had nothing but good things to say about the SSW.

Finally, the Fokker Razor, which I recently found in more german units than we had previously thought. It too was flown by famous german pilots, and Jasta 6 WAS NOT the only front line unit to have them.

Germany never lost the air war, they only lost the ground war!

IMHO RedBaron3D made a good decision by including the Halberstadt D.II to bridge the gap between the Eindecker and Albatros. The Fokker D.II would serve just as well. For an inital release, every plane that flew on the Western fron cannot be modelled, that's just reality. However, it is also true that putting the Germans in a 1915 model in late 1916 makes life a bit more difficult than it really was.

Getting balance correct is a very difficult thing. For instance, in RB it is possible to have SPAD VIIs fighting Fokker Eindeckers. The SPAD VII that was modeled was the late war 180 HP version, not the 1916 150 HP variant. So you get what amounts to a late 1917 type matched against a 1915 type. Make the decision the other way and you end up with a late 1916 plane fighting Fokker D.VIIs. Albatros scouts ended up undermodeled in RB. The original 160 HP Mercedes engine was boosted to 180+ HP by late 1917. This meant that while the Albatros was certainly outclassed by the SE5a and SPAD XIII, it was not by as wide a margin as seen in the game. On the + side for the Germans, the D.VIIf was modeled instead of the Mercedes powered D.VII.

So why am I dredging up a 5 year old game again? Because the design decisions facing the developers of KOE are identical. How to express the changes in types over time and still keep the task managable. Not an easy thing.

And, for those who will not accept anything less than 100 planes ... go play WFP (yes, disgusting, shameless plug ).

VonHelton,

What makes you think that just because not every early-WWI German rotary type known to man will be included in KOE that the Germans will get their asses handed to them in-game? What basis do you have for this? It seems like you make these claims out of thin air sometimes... Do you have any proof or statements what-so-ever leading to your claim?

Adding the rotary aircraft I listed still falls well short of 100 aircraft.

Yes I do........

Founder of the first online historical squadron, and someone who makes mods for RB.

.......That's both SP & MMP, for those who are keeping score.

I'd quite like to see the Fokker D3, which as you'll probably know, is the rotary biplane von Richtofen flew briefly in between using other more famous mounts. It's never really turned up in sims, but if it was good enough for the Baron to score in, it's good enough for me.
How it handled would probably be largely guesswork. Though for a bit of help guessing, take a look at some of the early pics of Anthony Fokker looping the Eindecker (at a scary low altitude) if you think might have been slow and cumbersome!
Having a go at being a gunner on some of the early British rotary pushers would be interesting too, just to see what they were up against in 'Bloody April'.
In fact, quite a few of the early WW1 aeroplanes, which usually only make it in as targets rather than ones you could fly, would be nice too. Halberstadts, Rolands, Martynsides, RE8s, BE's, Gunbusses and the like.
Instead of just the usual Camel, SE5a, Triplane and late Albatrosses (or should that be Albatri?).

Jason, I think it comes under this one:

"mediocrity is incapable of recognizing anything beyond itself"

Talk to you later bud!

VonHelton,

This does not give you any authority to dictate and draw conclusions about what this game will represent and how.



I am the current FS-WWI project leader, coordinator, developer and quality controler, having helped create and continue to develope the best WWI mod for any existing flight simulation which did not start out to be a WWI simulator. This however doesnt lead me to draw conclusions about a sim under developement of which I have no control or insider info on. :p

YAAAAWWWWNNNNN....
This topic has been done to death.
i think we can conclude that,
1, yes the germans had some early rotaries.
2, they were plagued with problems and were pretty hopeless.

yes the germans did capture allied planes and use them..dosent that tell you something?...or shall i spell it out?


Having a hand in modding a game dosent give anybody the right to try and twist history.


"Yes I do........

Founder of the first online historical squadron, and someone who makes mods for RB.

.......That's both SP & MMP, for those who are keeping score"

tell me what relevance this statement has?
you complain that people are trying to make you look like an idiot, but you persist in doing the job much better yourself.

You seem to totally disregard the premise that claims must be backed up with facts.
So far we have had to listen to your persistant posts with no proof...nor is there any way you could show any.

So give it a rest because no one is listening.

8 years experience means nothing?

ROFLMAO!

Ok guys, whatever you say..........

Let's put it this way:

Whenever I add the rotaries in, the German hold their own, and even win. When I leave it stock, they get slaughtered.

What's everyone afraid of?

Yes, I said AFRAID.

Afraid you won't be able to fly in like Eroll Flynn & save the day?

........Boo hoo, I'm all broken up.

I think it's rather telling how you guys are fighting me on this so bad.......

You don't want the germans to be properly represented, because it shatters your pre-concieved notions.

Well I hate to break it to ya, but the allies LOST the air war!

Every WW1 game/sim to date DELIBERATELY chooses to limit the rotary aircraft germany had.

.......There's a reason for that.

If KOE is truly interested in making a SIM and not a game, they will add the rotary planes I suggest.

As far as I'm concerned, leaving the german rotaries out shows bias, and shows me that they aren't interested in how it really was back then.......

You want "facts" Binky? You want "proof"?

Ok, chew on this:

If "engine problems" are your EXCUSE for leaving out German planes, then we must also leave out the following ALLIED aircraft:

DH2
Sopwith Camel
Nieuport 17
Nieuport 24
SE5
SPAD 7
SPAD 13

In fact, EVERY allied aircraft with the Hispano-Souisa engine must be pulled from the game.

Eddie Rickenbacker is on record working on his SPAD 13 on a regular basis due to breakdowns!

Sopwith Camels would have engine failure for no apparent reason, and literally fall out of the sky!

The DH2 would catch on fire all by itself!

.......And I'm just getting warmed up, no pun intended.

In fact, I can easily point out more probs with the Allied aircraft than I can the german. Wanna dance?

Another popular EXCUSE for leaving out german planes is the imbargo.

Well, the Allies had an "imbargo" as well........

THE GERMAN U-BOAT.



So, if we're gonna go that route, then I guess we won't be flying many planes, now will we?

ok let me put it another way...
gimme numbers produced numbers used and kills for these models you want to include.

backed up by evidence to confirm your findings.

ill start you off...fokker razor...i can only find reference to 1 confirmed kill.

hardly an earthshattering contribution.

so do we have a game full of these things?


you talked of games and sims....a sim is something that is as realistic as possible.

a game is not.

you are arguing in favour of a game and contradicting yourself.

i want a factual sim not some game that will feed your teutonic fantasy.

While more is always better, the Fokker D.II might be a better choice. The D.III started to come on line just prior to the Albatros D.I and D.II and was more of an overshadowed contemporary of those types. The D.II was available earlier and was more significant in bridging the gap between Eindecker and and Albatros. Of course, both would be nice .

The difference between the two is fairly significant. The D.II was powered by the same 80/100 HP engine as the E.III, while the D.III used the 160 double bank engine of the E.IV. The D.III also carried two guns. The difference between the D.II and D.II would be similar to the difference between the E.IV and E.III. The D.III would be faster (10 MPH) and have better firepower, but it would also be less handy and more difficult to fly.

Shameless plug: while you're waiting on KOE have you thought of giving WFP a go? We have the Rolands D.II, Martynside, Gunbus, Fokker D.II, Fokker D.III and lots more already flyable in Red Baron.

You can't go by production numbers. If you do, they would be ZERO german planes in the game, since Germany didn't produce like the Allies did.

You can't go by kills, since the records are incomplete. Many times, a "victory roster" will say "Enemy Fighter" or "Enemy Bomber" or something similar.

If we go by percentages, more Allied types would have to be pulled from the game.

The excuses given to date are weak, and have little bearing in reality.

This is not supposed to be a Howard Hughes movie, it's supposed to be a sim.

If you want a "factual" sim (your words), then the german rotaries must be included.

Also, a way for the germans to paint & fly captured allied aircraft must also be possible.

YOU are the one who is contradicting yourself Binky.........Not me.

you win von helton....you talk rubbish but i cant be bothered to argue anymore.
you are hopeless.

i`m sorry i cant be more artful or witty.

ill just wait for the game, god knows theyd be mad to listen to your ravings anyhow.

remember this..debate is a two way thing that must be backed up with facts.

no one can have a debate with you..you delight in telling us the gospel according to von helton and anyone elses view is rubbish.


three good tips for you...

1. dont eat yellow snow.
2. dont run with scissors.
3. that world in your head isnt real.

Hey Binky, maybe you should reconsider No.2!

The Nieuport 28 would lose the canvas off it's wings in an augenblik.........

.......Opps, there goes another Allied rotary!



Oh, I forgot, you ain't interested in the truth unless it suits your purpose. Right Blinky?



Doggonit, only the german planes broke down, isn't that right, Blinky?

Well I'm sorry, but that's not reality, and I want KOE to be a sim, not a damn arcade game.

.......And part of that is seeing that the germans get a fair shake this time.

Really now VonHelton? Well if we can't go by any historical documented sources, then what are you going by? Word of mouth?!? Perhaps a novel or two?? Sheesh... :rolleyes:

8 years of Red Baron II/3D experience means nothing in the KOE world man... Totally different system, 3d models, physics engine, campaign engine, renderer, design team, etc... (Tho some old members of the RBII team are in the KOE team)

I'm not afraid of any German rotary aircraft... I'm just saying dont waste the developers time by adding in aircraft that may have only shot down 2-4 aircraft total in their service.

Do you have any proof the allies lost the airwar? Do you have any proof they won it?

Yaaaaaaaawwwwn, VonH's prescription must have run out again. One of you guys want to run down to the druggist?

he dont need drugs he needs a laxative

Oh don't worry Argon.........

I have no doubt you guys will convince KOE to reject everything I'm saying.

After all, we can't portray how it really was up there, we need to make it so the allies save the day!

We need to make it so that it's a carbon copy of every game that's come before (with the germans hopelessly outclassed).

(Oh brother..........)

:rolleyes:

Oh, and I gave you the answer, but your mind was too clouded to see it.

I do want to thank you for proving my point, however.

Never fear, Binky!

Eroll Flynn will fly again, via KOE!

"Here I come to save the day!"

You'll get your arcade game, and I'll get a shiny coaster for my morning cup of coffee.



After all, this is the New Millinium, and we shouldn't expect more as technology advances, we should expect LESS!

Ain't that right?

Say, didn't you say you were done in this thread?

.......Opps, I cought you in a lie, how terribly unfair of me!

After all, I'm responsible for everything that goes wrong, ain't I Binky?

I'm out of touch with how it is, ain't I Binky?

The Germans lost the air war, didn't they, Binky?

If I'd just conform, everything would be ok, wouldn't it, Binky?

Say, did you know that Binky rhymes with Slinky?

i didnt say i was done on this thread baron, i said i couldnt be bothered to argue anymore.
you caught me in a lie?
re read the post its another case of you getting the facts wrong.

errol flynn? for your information he was australian ....extremely unlikeley that he would be coming to anyones rescue in ww1.

and the germans lost the whole war baron, and as the air war wasnt a seperate war on its own and was part of the whole war we can conclude that they did lose.

i`m only interested in what was...not what might have been.

so far you have given everyone an accurate factual account of one thing only , yes binky does rhyme with slinky.

BvH's commentary does have some merit if you look beyond the statements as absolutes. First, there were several aircraft between the Eindecker and the Albatros. I for one am not going to declare a sim fatally flawed if all of them can't be put in the game, but something should exist. IMHO getting both the Fokker D.II and Halberstadt D.II would be great. If not both, then one or the other. Personally, for all the talk of rotaries, I think the Halberstadt is the better plane.

As for being afraid of these types, there is no need to be. The Nieuport 17 was a better plane. The point is not to introduce Tuetonic super planes but rather to give the Germans the fighting chance that they historically had until the introduction of the Albatros. While I still do not relish the idea of fighting a N17 in one of these types, it's better that doing it in an Fokker E.III.

Oh well, i suppose there's no need to bother. This thread has gone so far down the tubes that and form of reasonable conversation has probably gone by the boards.

YES IT HAS!

This very result it something I have tried to prevent from my first postings here!

I have made it abundantly clear in prior threads that this sort of inherited behavior should not become part of this forum, nor of this new sim community!

Either you're understand this, or you end up just enabling this petty dribble!

GET IT!!!

I'm on a mission to lobby Aspect for the Taube.
Never modeled in WW1 flight sims. The best "A kickin" early aircraft of WW1. The allies always thought it was a big bird so they never shot at it much. lol Yep put me in a Fokker "Spin" or a "Taube" and I would rule the skys in early WW1.
Oh yea...debate what you want about fireing rates, Spandaus and Lewis maching guns but with the Taube or the Spin you can pack whatever side arm, rifle, beer bottle or brick you can carry and throw them as fast as your arm can handle.
Hmmm if the Germans could have manufactured more of these babies they would have definately won the war for sure.
Thanks for your kind support!

Yes, and we must certainly have the Bavarian model too........known as the Bier-Taube!

(I believe they usually flew in a six pack formation if I'm not mistaken)

Oh, and we've got to have the Kriegsmarine model too, you know, the one that could fly over land, or sea, or foam!!!

Don't wish to be pedantic, but the Germans didn't manufacture the Fokker Spin, or any of the other Fokkers for that matter (incidentally spin=spider all you translation fans), Fokker was a Dutch company.
Which is why Anthony Fokker was p*ssed off when the Allies put as a condition of the armistice that all DVIIs had to be handed over. It's also why he loaded a train full of DVlls and naffed off with them before the Allies could get their hands on them. Most of them ended up as mail planes in the 1920s.
OK history lesson over, now you can get back to arguing. Although personally, I think you should go for the supreme irony of settling your differences with a dogfight online.

Hmmmmmmm............

As I understand it, Fokker registered and built his first manufacturing facility as Fokker Aviatik GmbH (Fokker Aeroplanbau) on 22 February 1912 in Berlin. The Fokker company was based near Charlottenburg-Johannisthal (near Berlin), and it did make the Spinne therefore as a "German" manufactured aircraft.

Two Spinnen were purchased in 1913 by the German Army and were designated Fokker Spinne M.1.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.........

It's like talking to a brick wall..........

The only thing they want is a twisted view of history.

They don't want a sim, they want an arcade game that they can win at easily.

.......Something that strokes their overinflated egos.

grooooannnn.....

why is such a simple point being missed over and over again???

NO ONES afraid of any plane allied or german
the point is simply this....were they around in significant numbers and make a significant number of kills???? were you likeley to come across them in the course of your duty as an allied pilot?

thats it ...simple

if not...WHY THE HELL BOTHER WITH THEM
i want an accurate game dammit..... if i wasnt likely to come across these damn things i dont want them!!!!!!

i know they existed im not disputing it.but i dont want a game full of low number production experimental types that didnt see significant service..simply because it wont be authentic.
I wanthe game to be like it was....not like it MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

WHY ISNT IT CLEAR?

Yes and no. The Fokker D.II and D.III were certainly around in significant numbers, at least as significant goes early in the war. I do disagree with BvH on the numbers of late Fokker D type rotaries, Pfalz D.VIII, etc. They were there, but the dominant planes of late 1916 to the end of the war were the Albatros, Pfalz, and later Fokker D.VII. Putting the other planes in would not be fictional and would certainly spice up the game. Leaving them out would not be a crippling oversight. Just MHO.

"Putting the other planes in would not be fictional and would certainly spice up the game."

look pat this is where im coming from-

putting every type of plane that ever flew in ww1 in wouldnt be fictional.

but it would certainly be extremely unrealistic if you want the experience of an average pilot.

this you cannot possibly deny.

so its fair to ask the question "which planes should be included"

how more reasonable could it be to include the planes that were the significant contributors to the air war in terms of numbers and kills?

if you say there were many of a certain type and they were successful...then fine! i have no problem.

i do however have a problem with the lesser known types and the ones that were scarce.

the razor or d8 is one.....1 confirmed kill.
it came too late in the war.

there are others that i have a problem with but for other reasons...they were hopelessly unreliable.

If i see these planes roaring round racking up kills it will be a chance for a realistic sim ruined in my opinion and i dont want that.

you see, going back to your quote at the beginning of my post.....
I DONT WANT A SPICED UP GAME
i want a realistic sim.

Personally, I would rather see a few aeroplanes done well, with progressive features such as manually having to change Lewis drums, leader streamers on the struts, being able to dive to put flames out, vibrating wires etc, than lots of indifferent models.
If KOE follows true to form, individual modders will find a way to utilise these features and add in the more esoteric types.
Take a look at 'Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WW1' and see how many aircraft are in that. With that in mind, where would you draw the line on what to put in and what to leave out?!!
I suppose there is scope for adding some of them for your character to 'test', while on leave, as many WW1 pilots did, but ultimately if they were modelled with fidelity, I daresay we'd come to the same conclusion as those pilots did years ago, and say no thanks, as von Richtofen did to the Pfalz Triplane for example.
Although there is some evidence to suggest that a few pilots in this position took payments from manufacturers to recommend certain types, not a smart move one your life depends on how good the machine is :-) How about that as an rpg element?!!

I don't understand that logic. If an aircraft type saw limited service, and a sim included it but in limited numbers in the correct squadrons, then how is that unrealistic? If the skies are full of Fokker D.VIIIs then I would agree. But if you have Jasta 6 flying Fokker D.VIIIs late in the war, that is a realistic simulation.

Now the question becomes, is it worth the time and effort. That is a decision for the development staff. I certainly agree that the Fokker D.VII and D.VIIf should be done very well before any effort is expended on the more esoteric types.

One obvious approach to settle this issue is to release a WW1 flight sim in as separate campaign modules, something along the following lines -

Module 1: Early war period from Garros through Immelman to the the arrival of the Nieuports, DH2's, early Fokker rotaries. and the earliest Albatros D.II. The subsequent arrival of the Albatros D.III fighters, the Sopwith Triplanes, first introduction of the Fokker Dr.1, and the first examples of the SE5 and Spad VII.

Module 3: Fight for the Skies
The appearance of the Camel series, the Brisfit, the Albatros D.V series, the Pfalz D.III series, re-introduction of the Dr.I. and the burgeoning increase in Entente air power over the Western Front. The subsequent appearance of the Spad XIII, Nieuport 28, Dolphin, the Fokker D.VII series, some of the exotic German fighters such as the Siemens-Schukert and the E.V, Trenchard's long range bomber offensive.

Each module could be optimized to better portray the active fronts, aerodrome locations, and the correct mix of a/c to be found in the air. Each module would provide good play balance. And a much better flavor and ambience could be provided. And I venture to say that, if done well, buyers would be quite willing to pay separately for each, just as many have done for IL2 and then FB.

That is how I would approach things.


LB

YES!!!


YES!!

NO WW1 AIRCRAFT SOFTWARE HAS DONE RIGHT BY THE GERMANS........NOT ONE.

How would you like it if we cut the number of allied aircraft in half, like the germans were done?

.......You'd be screaming bloody murder if we did! So, now you know how I feel.

When I added the german rotaries to ROTJ, the Germans held their own for a change, instead of ending yet another german career in RB.

HALF OF THE GERMAN AIRCRAFT THAT WERE AT THE FRONT ARE MISSING!

.......Probably over half, really.

I understand that you are a fan of German aircraft VonHelton, the name's a good clue, I am too.
But the fact is that in numerical terms, there were, for most of the First World War on the French front, many more Allied aircraft than German ones. Well over twice as many for a large proportion of the time. So I take people's point that the lesser known German types would not have cropped up very often in the average combat encounter.
Indeed, reading many accounts of allied pilot's combat reports, it is rare for them to mention anything other than the most commonly portrayed aircraft, which is why they have become cliches, but it does seem a fair pointer to how best the developers can 'take a slice of life' as it were.
I sympathise with you wishing to enjoy these lesser known types, and it is true that the German flyers have been much maligned. One only has to read contemporary accounts of allied pilots, which portray the Germans as being largely afraid to engage unless well inside their own territory. Yet a quick look at the map these days to see where, for example, von Richtofen's victims fell (at least as can be best confirmed) reveals an almost 50/50 split of crashes on either side of the front (bear in mind that many of these crashing aircraft would be in the process of being carried East to the German side by the prevailing wind as they fell too).
It's also a fact that the victors generally get to write the history books though, and so the myth outshines the facts on many occasions.
Personally I should like to try flying a two-seater mission in KOE when it arrives, in my opinion, those guys were the real heroes of the air, going where they were told to, often used as bait and flying less agile craft than the people they knew would be out looking for them, now that takes real guts.
The fact that the game is apparently to be called Knights over Europe, should in itself mean that the Germans be given a fair hearing. For it was they who so readily embraced the notion of being modern day knights in the mould of Siegfreid and the like, even going so far as to emulate them with 'heraldic' schemes and such.
Of course we all know that the chivalry for which those knights, and their WW1 contemporaries are famed is a rather fanciful notion, more akin to fiction than fact. Nevertheless, it's more of a German fanciful notion than a British, French or American one.
The best you can do VonHelton, is hope for the best. But if you get your wish, I'll certainly be one who enjoys giving the lesser known types a try as well, although I have to say, I think that pleasing the majority will be the sensible way for the developers to go.

Fokker E.IV
Fokker D.II
Fokker D.III
Pfalz E.II
Pfalz E.IV
Fokker D.V
Fokker D.VI
Pfalz D.VIII
SSW D.III
SSW D.IV
Fokker Razor

11 planes.........A YEAR to build 11 planes.

(The Fokker E.III & Fokker Dr1 are considered in the game at this point)

11 planes that can make a difference in the way things turned out in your campaign when you play the game.

What if I wanted to leave 11 ALLIED planes out of the game?

Oh well now, we can't have that, now can we?

My God, even Red Baron 1 included some of my list!!

But this state-of-the-art "sim" cannot do better than a game from the late 1900's???????

Every stinkin' time, the germans get the shaft.

......EVERY STINKIN' TIME!!

Well, this time I'm not being silent.

I WILL BE HEARD, AND I DON'T GIVE A RIP WHAT ANYONE THINKS!

.......And I still want captured aircraft & seaplanes too, if possible.

If YOU had a choice between flying a single gun Halberstadt or a twin gun Fokker D.III, which would YOU choose?

The disparity in manuverability between inlines & rotaries being what they are, give me a rotary any day!

........Especially one with twin guns!!

I'M TIRED OF GETTING MY BUTT KICKED IN 1916!!

Not only is it aggrevating, but it never happened in real life.

.......Which is exactly why leaving out the German rotaries is completely unfair.

How long does it take to build a rudder?

20 minutes at most???????

Yank the rudder off of a Fokker E.III, slap the new rudder on, and you have a Pfalz E.II ready to go.

......Down to 10 planes, and we haven't even broken a sweat yet.

Let's say it takes 5 days to build a Fokker E.IV:

Fokker E.IV & Pfalz E.IV are the same, save the rudder.

Down to 7 planes in 6 days.

5 days to build a Fokker D.II:

1 day to add another gun & build a twin-engine cowling & call it a D.III & scratch it off the list.

Down to 5 planes in 12 days.

4 days to build the Fokker D.V, since you already have the lower wing from the Fokker D.III and it doesn't have to move this time.

Down to 4 planes in 16 days........

We close to a year yet?

Oh, I nearly forgot the SSW D.I & D.II on my list.

Take the prop off of the Nieuport 17, add a prop with a nose cone.

How long does that take? 30 minutes?

VonHelton, your times are very incorrect. It may take that long to build one of Red Baron 3d's extremely low poly models (And the RB3d models ARE very low even compaired to FS-WWI's 3d models, let alone KOE's!) but not so for KOE. It takes at least a month to do so correctly and get into game... Most of the time even more! All of the model research, actual building and then the texturing work...

well von helton ..i guess youd better offer aspect your services pretty quick.
I can see that without your infinite knowledge and programming skills were all going to be in trouble and end up with a crap game.

Then you can change the name change the name to..
"Von Heltons view"

There may be marketing implications though...a game including 300 models of planes full of gaps
wont be on my wish list.

It takes a month to build a rudder, Argon?

HOLY ****!

Guess FlyX is right, and we'll only get 4 planes after all!

STFU Binky.......

I hate to tell you this, but Karel's nice, tight planes ARE FICTION.

These planes had gaps in REAL LIFE. If you made a WW1 aircraft as tightly as Karel made his models, you'd snap parts off of the plane BEFORE you even got into battle!

WW1 aircraft......Hell, even modern aircraft, need to FLEX! If they don't, parts start snapping off!

If you doubt me, smartass, contact Fokker Team Schorndorf & ask them!

......Ask any ultralight company!

.......Ask Boeing!

So I'm sorry, but every model Karel built is WRONG!!

Is there a noticable gap between the lower wing & fuselage on Karel's Nieuport 24?

.....If not, it's WRONG!

Is there 2 gaps in the upper wing of the RE8?

.....If not, it's WRONG!

And I can cite thousands of other examples!

I'd like to see YOU build all of the RB aircraft from scratch, fighting MCU the whole way, jerkwad.

Having said that, if KOE wants planes, I'll build them exactly as they want them.

Oh, and since we're on the subject of high-poly models, I have a 50,000 poly Stuka I built from scratch.

.......It only took me 3 days, and the better part of a day for the bitmaps.

I have a 100,000 poly SPAD 7 (not built by me) that took only 5 days to build, so this garbage that we can't have aircraft in KOE is pure bull****!

However, let's say for grins it DOES take them months for 1 aircraft:

I'd rather wait until the planes are included than to get yet one more "sim" that leaves out HALF the german aircraft!!

(If you count all of the missing german inlines, it's well over half!)

If I'm with Jasta 26, and they flew Roland D.II's, but yet I'm in a Fokker E.III, is it a sim, or a game?

IT'S A GAME!

Tell ya what, Argon.........

Upload a 3DS file of one of your planes for download & give me the link.

I'll look at it in 3D Max, then make a completely different aircraft from scratch.

5 bucks says I'll have the new plane on your desk within a few days, tops!

Do you accept my challenge?

Edited of insults.

Edited for insulting behavior.

Edited again.

Bink stay out of this. You are not helping.

OK this is getting a bit out of hand and isn't really accomplishing much.

"Knights Over Europe" isn't going to ship with over a hundred aircraft, nor is it going to ship with just eight. We are intentionally choosing to go the route of quality over quantity, in all areas of the game, which we hope players will appreciate. We aren't ready to discuss the specific aircraft lineup right now but I can tell you that our selections have been deliberate 'balance' choices.

Thank god for that!

VonH, you have made your point, enough. It is just getting silly now.

I really don't want to close what are the only 3 active threads in this section.

I'm outnumbered 50 to 1, and you're yelling at me???????

.......o..........k............

Noooo

I am saying you have made your point. Ramming a stick into the hornets nest generally causes the appearance of more hornets.

Well, you got a can of industrial strength RAID on your hip for a reason........

Yes, I suppose I do.

I don't like banning people though, it generally causes our boards to be bland and tasteless. If I banned everyone that 'deserves' it then very few people would be around, including several folks that are now staff.

Tom, your intervention into our discussion here shows your inabililty to understand the source from which the hostility on this forum has originated!

Furthermore, your intervention against those individuals who have attempted to elevate the level of the discussions here so that they might function as a source of useful information to the Aspect design team was ill-conceived and out of context!

No one had asked you to "baby sit"! The membership was doing as good a job as possible in maintaining a cap on poor behavior, until you undercut our effort!

Now you allow one member the continued right to use profanity and direct attacks against other members, all the while lecturing the community on good behavior???

Most curious!

I too now question the validity of the conversations here.........that I have worked with other like-minded members to generate!!!

What kind of personal demeanor is expected of members if they are allowed to insult the intelligence of other members, and engage in outright attacks of a very personal nature......and with the use of profanity at that!

In the very thread that you lectured me concerning "this is beyond acceptable conduct" I wrote:

Do you understand what this means?

Having rules to discuss issues is important!

Others respect this approach!

In fact as individuals we expect to be treated with respect and dignity............if this does not occur then the aggrieved community has the right to discipline the offender(s)!

YOU WOULD DISAGREE WITH THIS???

I would suggest that you revisit the threads on your board here, so that you may assess the proper context of the discussions that have transpired!

Perhaps you may consider it easiest to assail the honorable efforts of the few who have tried to abide by the rules of proper forum etiquette, instead of disciplining the aggressor!

This approach will do nothing but encourage further aggressiveness by those responsible for the inciteful behavior in the first place.........as is evidenced by the degeneration of this thread!

Either reverse this situation, or you can expect the "brain-drain" to commence!

I have had about enough of this.

I am getting multiple complaints from various people.

Topic closed. As I said in a prior post.

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A POSTER DIRECT IT MY WAY AND I WILL INVESTIGATE IT

No, you don't have the right as a community to discipline someone on this board. That was tried in the RB3d Forum a while back and we ended up deleting the thing because it turned into the biggest cess pool this side of my septic tank. Anyone remember that? Don't think I don't have some understanding of what is going on here.

I do not have the time, or inclination to deal with either one of you right now. I don't care who is initially wrong or right. This is like dealing with two kids who are absolutely sure they are right and are willing to come to blows over it.

Both you and von H are getting a time out. I am locking both of you off this board for one week. Call this an ultimate warning. VonH for 'insulting' people and you for this particular post. If you don't like the way I moderate this board you can write to me personally (don't do it this time, I won't reconsider the one week cooling off period). If you think this is unfair write to bubba@SimHQ.com.

I am tired of this. I told you a way to fix the problem, but instead you bring your complain to a public forum. I have been doing this for five years. I think I have a little bit of understanding of what personalities at play can do.

If neither of you want to play by the posting rules in this forum and instead wish to further your own little arguements go someplace else. I don't know if Von Helton has a point or not because all I hear is a bunch of crap. Discuss it intelligently or go away.