"Putting the other planes in would not be fictional and would certainly spice up the game."

look pat this is where im coming from-

putting every type of plane that ever flew in ww1 in wouldnt be fictional.

but it would certainly be extremely unrealistic if you want the experience of an average pilot.

this you cannot possibly deny.

so its fair to ask the question "which planes should be included"

how more reasonable could it be to include the planes that were the significant contributors to the air war in terms of numbers and kills?

if you say there were many of a certain type and they were successful...then fine! i have no problem.

i do however have a problem with the lesser known types and the ones that were scarce.

the razor or d8 is one.....1 confirmed kill.
it came too late in the war.

there are others that i have a problem with but for other reasons...they were hopelessly unreliable.

If i see these planes roaring round racking up kills it will be a chance for a realistic sim ruined in my opinion and i dont want that.

you see, going back to your quote at the beginning of my post.....
I DONT WANT A SPICED UP GAME
i want a realistic sim.

Personally, I would rather see a few aeroplanes done well, with progressive features such as manually having to change Lewis drums, leader streamers on the struts, being able to dive to put flames out, vibrating wires etc, than lots of indifferent models.
If KOE follows true to form, individual modders will find a way to utilise these features and add in the more esoteric types.
Take a look at 'Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WW1' and see how many aircraft are in that. With that in mind, where would you draw the line on what to put in and what to leave out?!!
I suppose there is scope for adding some of them for your character to 'test', while on leave, as many WW1 pilots did, but ultimately if they were modelled with fidelity, I daresay we'd come to the same conclusion as those pilots did years ago, and say no thanks, as von Richtofen did to the Pfalz Triplane for example.
Although there is some evidence to suggest that a few pilots in this position took payments from manufacturers to recommend certain types, not a smart move one your life depends on how good the machine is :-) How about that as an rpg element?!!

I don't understand that logic. If an aircraft type saw limited service, and a sim included it but in limited numbers in the correct squadrons, then how is that unrealistic? If the skies are full of Fokker D.VIIIs then I would agree. But if you have Jasta 6 flying Fokker D.VIIIs late in the war, that is a realistic simulation.

Now the question becomes, is it worth the time and effort. That is a decision for the development staff. I certainly agree that the Fokker D.VII and D.VIIf should be done very well before any effort is expended on the more esoteric types.

One obvious approach to settle this issue is to release a WW1 flight sim in as separate campaign modules, something along the following lines -

Module 1: Early war period from Garros through Immelman to the the arrival of the Nieuports, DH2's, early Fokker rotaries. and the earliest Albatros D.II. The subsequent arrival of the Albatros D.III fighters, the Sopwith Triplanes, first introduction of the Fokker Dr.1, and the first examples of the SE5 and Spad VII.

Module 3: Fight for the Skies
The appearance of the Camel series, the Brisfit, the Albatros D.V series, the Pfalz D.III series, re-introduction of the Dr.I. and the burgeoning increase in Entente air power over the Western Front. The subsequent appearance of the Spad XIII, Nieuport 28, Dolphin, the Fokker D.VII series, some of the exotic German fighters such as the Siemens-Schukert and the E.V, Trenchard's long range bomber offensive.

Each module could be optimized to better portray the active fronts, aerodrome locations, and the correct mix of a/c to be found in the air. Each module would provide good play balance. And a much better flavor and ambience could be provided. And I venture to say that, if done well, buyers would be quite willing to pay separately for each, just as many have done for IL2 and then FB.

That is how I would approach things.


LB

YES!!!


YES!!

NO WW1 AIRCRAFT SOFTWARE HAS DONE RIGHT BY THE GERMANS........NOT ONE.

How would you like it if we cut the number of allied aircraft in half, like the germans were done?

.......You'd be screaming bloody murder if we did! So, now you know how I feel.

When I added the german rotaries to ROTJ, the Germans held their own for a change, instead of ending yet another german career in RB.

HALF OF THE GERMAN AIRCRAFT THAT WERE AT THE FRONT ARE MISSING!

.......Probably over half, really.

I understand that you are a fan of German aircraft VonHelton, the name's a good clue, I am too.
But the fact is that in numerical terms, there were, for most of the First World War on the French front, many more Allied aircraft than German ones. Well over twice as many for a large proportion of the time. So I take people's point that the lesser known German types would not have cropped up very often in the average combat encounter.
Indeed, reading many accounts of allied pilot's combat reports, it is rare for them to mention anything other than the most commonly portrayed aircraft, which is why they have become cliches, but it does seem a fair pointer to how best the developers can 'take a slice of life' as it were.
I sympathise with you wishing to enjoy these lesser known types, and it is true that the German flyers have been much maligned. One only has to read contemporary accounts of allied pilots, which portray the Germans as being largely afraid to engage unless well inside their own territory. Yet a quick look at the map these days to see where, for example, von Richtofen's victims fell (at least as can be best confirmed) reveals an almost 50/50 split of crashes on either side of the front (bear in mind that many of these crashing aircraft would be in the process of being carried East to the German side by the prevailing wind as they fell too).
It's also a fact that the victors generally get to write the history books though, and so the myth outshines the facts on many occasions.
Personally I should like to try flying a two-seater mission in KOE when it arrives, in my opinion, those guys were the real heroes of the air, going where they were told to, often used as bait and flying less agile craft than the people they knew would be out looking for them, now that takes real guts.
The fact that the game is apparently to be called Knights over Europe, should in itself mean that the Germans be given a fair hearing. For it was they who so readily embraced the notion of being modern day knights in the mould of Siegfreid and the like, even going so far as to emulate them with 'heraldic' schemes and such.
Of course we all know that the chivalry for which those knights, and their WW1 contemporaries are famed is a rather fanciful notion, more akin to fiction than fact. Nevertheless, it's more of a German fanciful notion than a British, French or American one.
The best you can do VonHelton, is hope for the best. But if you get your wish, I'll certainly be one who enjoys giving the lesser known types a try as well, although I have to say, I think that pleasing the majority will be the sensible way for the developers to go.

Fokker E.IV
Fokker D.II
Fokker D.III
Pfalz E.II
Pfalz E.IV
Fokker D.V
Fokker D.VI
Pfalz D.VIII
SSW D.III
SSW D.IV
Fokker Razor

11 planes.........A YEAR to build 11 planes.

(The Fokker E.III & Fokker Dr1 are considered in the game at this point)

11 planes that can make a difference in the way things turned out in your campaign when you play the game.

What if I wanted to leave 11 ALLIED planes out of the game?

Oh well now, we can't have that, now can we?

My God, even Red Baron 1 included some of my list!!

But this state-of-the-art "sim" cannot do better than a game from the late 1900's???????

Every stinkin' time, the germans get the shaft.

......EVERY STINKIN' TIME!!

Well, this time I'm not being silent.

I WILL BE HEARD, AND I DON'T GIVE A RIP WHAT ANYONE THINKS!

.......And I still want captured aircraft & seaplanes too, if possible.

If YOU had a choice between flying a single gun Halberstadt or a twin gun Fokker D.III, which would YOU choose?

The disparity in manuverability between inlines & rotaries being what they are, give me a rotary any day!

........Especially one with twin guns!!

I'M TIRED OF GETTING MY BUTT KICKED IN 1916!!

Not only is it aggrevating, but it never happened in real life.

.......Which is exactly why leaving out the German rotaries is completely unfair.

How long does it take to build a rudder?

20 minutes at most???????

Yank the rudder off of a Fokker E.III, slap the new rudder on, and you have a Pfalz E.II ready to go.

......Down to 10 planes, and we haven't even broken a sweat yet.

Let's say it takes 5 days to build a Fokker E.IV:

Fokker E.IV & Pfalz E.IV are the same, save the rudder.

Down to 7 planes in 6 days.

5 days to build a Fokker D.II:

1 day to add another gun & build a twin-engine cowling & call it a D.III & scratch it off the list.

Down to 5 planes in 12 days.

4 days to build the Fokker D.V, since you already have the lower wing from the Fokker D.III and it doesn't have to move this time.

Down to 4 planes in 16 days........

We close to a year yet?

Oh, I nearly forgot the SSW D.I & D.II on my list.

Take the prop off of the Nieuport 17, add a prop with a nose cone.

How long does that take? 30 minutes?

VonHelton, your times are very incorrect. It may take that long to build one of Red Baron 3d's extremely low poly models (And the RB3d models ARE very low even compaired to FS-WWI's 3d models, let alone KOE's!) but not so for KOE. It takes at least a month to do so correctly and get into game... Most of the time even more! All of the model research, actual building and then the texturing work...

well von helton ..i guess youd better offer aspect your services pretty quick.
I can see that without your infinite knowledge and programming skills were all going to be in trouble and end up with a crap game.

Then you can change the name change the name to..
"Von Heltons view"

There may be marketing implications though...a game including 300 models of planes full of gaps
wont be on my wish list.

It takes a month to build a rudder, Argon?

HOLY ****!

Guess FlyX is right, and we'll only get 4 planes after all!

STFU Binky.......

I hate to tell you this, but Karel's nice, tight planes ARE FICTION.

These planes had gaps in REAL LIFE. If you made a WW1 aircraft as tightly as Karel made his models, you'd snap parts off of the plane BEFORE you even got into battle!

WW1 aircraft......Hell, even modern aircraft, need to FLEX! If they don't, parts start snapping off!

If you doubt me, smartass, contact Fokker Team Schorndorf & ask them!

......Ask any ultralight company!

.......Ask Boeing!

So I'm sorry, but every model Karel built is WRONG!!

Is there a noticable gap between the lower wing & fuselage on Karel's Nieuport 24?

.....If not, it's WRONG!

Is there 2 gaps in the upper wing of the RE8?

.....If not, it's WRONG!

And I can cite thousands of other examples!

I'd like to see YOU build all of the RB aircraft from scratch, fighting MCU the whole way, jerkwad.

Having said that, if KOE wants planes, I'll build them exactly as they want them.

Oh, and since we're on the subject of high-poly models, I have a 50,000 poly Stuka I built from scratch.

.......It only took me 3 days, and the better part of a day for the bitmaps.

I have a 100,000 poly SPAD 7 (not built by me) that took only 5 days to build, so this garbage that we can't have aircraft in KOE is pure bull****!

However, let's say for grins it DOES take them months for 1 aircraft:

I'd rather wait until the planes are included than to get yet one more "sim" that leaves out HALF the german aircraft!!

(If you count all of the missing german inlines, it's well over half!)

If I'm with Jasta 26, and they flew Roland D.II's, but yet I'm in a Fokker E.III, is it a sim, or a game?

IT'S A GAME!

Tell ya what, Argon.........

Upload a 3DS file of one of your planes for download & give me the link.

I'll look at it in 3D Max, then make a completely different aircraft from scratch.

5 bucks says I'll have the new plane on your desk within a few days, tops!

Do you accept my challenge?

Edited of insults.

Edited for insulting behavior.

Edited again.

Bink stay out of this. You are not helping.

OK this is getting a bit out of hand and isn't really accomplishing much.

"Knights Over Europe" isn't going to ship with over a hundred aircraft, nor is it going to ship with just eight. We are intentionally choosing to go the route of quality over quantity, in all areas of the game, which we hope players will appreciate. We aren't ready to discuss the specific aircraft lineup right now but I can tell you that our selections have been deliberate 'balance' choices.

Thank god for that!