#1389720 - 12/07/03 02:45 PM
Early German Rotary Aircraft
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In August 1916 these Jasta were formed.
Jasta 1 Fok.E.III, Fok.E.IV, Fok.D.I, Fok.D.II,Halb.D.II and Pfalz E.IV.
Jasta 2 Fok.D.I, Alb.D.I
Jasta 3 Fok.D.I, Halb.D.III
Jasta 4 Halb.D.II.
Jasta 5 Fok.E.IV, Fok.D.III, Halb.D.II
Jasta 6 Fok.E.IV.
Jasta 7 Fok.D.II
In September 1916.
Jasta 8 ?
Jasta 9 Fok.E.IV and Halb. D.II.
Jasta 10 4 Fok.E.III, 1 Fok.E.IV, 1 Fok.D.II, 2 Halb.D.II and Alb.D.II.
Jasta 11 Halb. D.II and Alb.D.I.
Jasta 12 Fok.E.III, Fok.D.I, Fok.D.II and Halb.D.II.
Jasta 13 ?
Jasta 14 2 Fok.E.III, 7 Fok.D.III, 1 Halb.D.II.
Jasta 15 Fok.E.III, Fok. D.II and D.III.
In October 1916
Jasta 16 Fok.E.III, Fok.E.IV, Fok.D.I, Fok.D.II, Pfalz E.I and Pfalz E.IV.
All the Jastas formed after Jasta 16 were equipped with D.Types.
Blue skies, Dan-San Dear KOE Staff, please IGNORE those individuals like FlyXwire, who insist Germany had very few early war rotary aircraft. As you see above, Dan San's list shows clearly that they did. Their inclusion is critical to the german side, and to exclude them like so many WW1 sims have in the past is a travesty.
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#1389722 - 12/07/03 07:02 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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Originally posted by FlyXwire: Hey Franz List.......thanks for the publicity!!! Don't say another word to me........ You got everyone on this board thinking I'm some kind of idiot or something, and frankly, I'm tired of it.
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#1389723 - 12/08/03 06:07 AM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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PatWilson
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The majority of early war scouts, German or otherwise, were rotaries. In 1915 and early 1916 rotaries offered the best power to weight ratio. Later development of inlines made them the engine of choice for most scouts, although rotaries were still commonly used (Camel, Fokker DRI, late model Nieuports + others).
So yeas, Germany did have lots of early war rotaries, and in mid 1916 they were most definitely NOT all Fokker Eindeckers.
The lucky man is the man who leaves as little to chance as possible.
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#1389724 - 12/08/03 07:00 AM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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ArgonV
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No one is saying that Germany didnt have many early-war rotaries... But what most of us are saying is for time purposes and restraints model those for now that yeilded the greatest impact of the WWI air war.
"Go Fly A Kite!" -Jason R. FS-WWI Project Leader FS-WWI Plane Pack SiteIntel i9 10900k Gigabyte Z490 Aorus Elite AC 64GB Corsair DDR4 2933 Vengeance RGB Pro AMD XFX 7900 XTX Merc310 Black Edition LG UltraGear 38GN95B-B 38" monitor Corsair HX1200 PSU 1TB EVO 980 Pro M.2 PCIe x4 SSD 2TB EVO 980 Pro M.2 PCIe x4 SSD Two 2TB EVO 860 SSDs Sound Blaster ZxR Win 10 x64 Pro HOTAS Cougar #4069 w/Uber II Nxt mod #284 & UTM bushings
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#1389725 - 12/08/03 07:08 AM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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JG1Hautz_J10
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Originally posted by VonHelton: Originally posted by FlyXwire: Hey Franz List.......thanks for the publicity!!! Don't say another word to me........
You got everyone on this board thinking I'm some kind of idiot or something, and frankly, I'm tired of it. Gentlemen! This is the war room, you can't fight in here!! Hautz
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#1389726 - 12/08/03 12:59 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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Originally posted by ArgonV: No one is saying that Germany didnt have many early-war rotaries......
But what most of us are saying is for time purposes and restraints model those for now that yeilded the greatest impact of the WWI air war. ........And watch as the german units in the game get SLAUGHTERED.Sorry, not this time. Not only is it aggrevating, but it NEVER HAPPENED.Not only did they have their own, but plenty of captured rotary aircraft as well. As I stated earlier, the game needs to be set up so that if an allied plane lands well behind our lines mostly intact, we should be able to capture it, paint it up as we wish, & fly it. .......And don't forget the Fokker D.V!! Contrary to what has been said, it WAS NOT just a training aircraft! It saw combat with Jasta 5 & 6, and I just found out Jasta 4 had some as did some Naval & Marine Jastas, and I bet other front line units flew it in combat as well. The Fokker D.V was built in more numbers than any other early german rotary aircraft, and was called nothing but good things. Some sources claim the Fokker D.V was slow or less mauverable for its day. I found out that this was a BOLD-FACED LIE.The plane was considered a "thoughbred racehorse" & a "wonderplane"!! ........That doesn't sound slow & unmanuverable to me! Further, training units weren't given brand new aircraft, they were given hand-me-downs, so the D.V saw combat long before it was relegated to training duty. Considering it was build in more numbers, I must assume it served in nearly every Jasta, even if it was just a "backup plane". Also don't forget the SSW D.I & D.II, which was Germany's answer to the Nieuport types. Of course the Fokker Dr.I....... The Fokker D.VI is important for the Bavarian Units. The Pfalz D.VII & D.VIII as well, and Paul Baumer flew the Pfalz rotaries ALOT, as did other famous german pilots. SSW D.III & D.IV should be in there, as it was the first true interceptor. Ernst Udet & Rudolph Bethold both had nothing but good things to say about the SSW. Finally, the Fokker Razor, which I recently found in more german units than we had previously thought. It too was flown by famous german pilots, and Jasta 6 WAS NOT the only front line unit to have them. Germany never lost the air war, they only lost the ground war!
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#1389727 - 12/08/03 04:32 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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PatWilson
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Originally posted by ArgonV: No one is saying that Germany didnt have many early-war rotaries...
But what most of us are saying is for time purposes and restraints model those for now that yeilded the greatest impact of the WWI air war. IMHO RedBaron3D made a good decision by including the Halberstadt D.II to bridge the gap between the Eindecker and Albatros. The Fokker D.II would serve just as well. For an inital release, every plane that flew on the Western fron cannot be modelled, that's just reality. However, it is also true that putting the Germans in a 1915 model in late 1916 makes life a bit more difficult than it really was. Getting balance correct is a very difficult thing. For instance, in RB it is possible to have SPAD VIIs fighting Fokker Eindeckers. The SPAD VII that was modeled was the late war 180 HP version, not the 1916 150 HP variant. So you get what amounts to a late 1917 type matched against a 1915 type. Make the decision the other way and you end up with a late 1916 plane fighting Fokker D.VIIs. Albatros scouts ended up undermodeled in RB. The original 160 HP Mercedes engine was boosted to 180+ HP by late 1917. This meant that while the Albatros was certainly outclassed by the SE5a and SPAD XIII, it was not by as wide a margin as seen in the game. On the + side for the Germans, the D.VIIf was modeled instead of the Mercedes powered D.VII. So why am I dredging up a 5 year old game again? Because the design decisions facing the developers of KOE are identical. How to express the changes in types over time and still keep the task managable. Not an easy thing. And, for those who will not accept anything less than 100 planes ... go play WFP (yes, disgusting, shameless plug ).
The lucky man is the man who leaves as little to chance as possible.
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#1389728 - 12/08/03 06:29 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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ArgonV
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VonHelton,
What makes you think that just because not every early-WWI German rotary type known to man will be included in KOE that the Germans will get their asses handed to them in-game? What basis do you have for this? It seems like you make these claims out of thin air sometimes... Do you have any proof or statements what-so-ever leading to your claim?
"Go Fly A Kite!" -Jason R. FS-WWI Project Leader FS-WWI Plane Pack SiteIntel i9 10900k Gigabyte Z490 Aorus Elite AC 64GB Corsair DDR4 2933 Vengeance RGB Pro AMD XFX 7900 XTX Merc310 Black Edition LG UltraGear 38GN95B-B 38" monitor Corsair HX1200 PSU 1TB EVO 980 Pro M.2 PCIe x4 SSD 2TB EVO 980 Pro M.2 PCIe x4 SSD Two 2TB EVO 860 SSDs Sound Blaster ZxR Win 10 x64 Pro HOTAS Cougar #4069 w/Uber II Nxt mod #284 & UTM bushings
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#1389729 - 12/08/03 06:34 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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Adding the rotary aircraft I listed still falls well short of 100 aircraft.
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#1389730 - 12/08/03 06:44 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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Originally posted by ArgonV: VonHelton,
What makes you think that just because not every early-WWI German rotary type known to man will be included in KOE that the Germans will get their asses handed to them in-game? What basis do you have for this? It seems like you make these claims out of thin air sometimes... Do you have any proof or statements what-so-ever leading to your claim? Yes I do........ Founder of the first online historical squadron, and someone who makes mods for RB. .......That's both SP & MMP, for those who are keeping score.
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#1389731 - 12/08/03 07:38 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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I'd quite like to see the Fokker D3, which as you'll probably know, is the rotary biplane von Richtofen flew briefly in between using other more famous mounts. It's never really turned up in sims, but if it was good enough for the Baron to score in, it's good enough for me. How it handled would probably be largely guesswork. Though for a bit of help guessing, take a look at some of the early pics of Anthony Fokker looping the Eindecker (at a scary low altitude) if you think might have been slow and cumbersome! Having a go at being a gunner on some of the early British rotary pushers would be interesting too, just to see what they were up against in 'Bloody April'. In fact, quite a few of the early WW1 aeroplanes, which usually only make it in as targets rather than ones you could fly, would be nice too. Halberstadts, Rolands, Martynsides, RE8s, BE's, Gunbusses and the like. Instead of just the usual Camel, SE5a, Triplane and late Albatrosses (or should that be Albatri?).
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#1389733 - 12/09/03 06:25 AM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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ArgonV
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VonHelton, This does not give you any authority to dictate and draw conclusions about what this game will represent and how. I am the current FS-WWI project leader, coordinator, developer and quality controler, having helped create and continue to develope the best WWI mod for any existing flight simulation which did not start out to be a WWI simulator. This however doesnt lead me to draw conclusions about a sim under developement of which I have no control or insider info on. :p
"Go Fly A Kite!" -Jason R. FS-WWI Project Leader FS-WWI Plane Pack SiteIntel i9 10900k Gigabyte Z490 Aorus Elite AC 64GB Corsair DDR4 2933 Vengeance RGB Pro AMD XFX 7900 XTX Merc310 Black Edition LG UltraGear 38GN95B-B 38" monitor Corsair HX1200 PSU 1TB EVO 980 Pro M.2 PCIe x4 SSD 2TB EVO 980 Pro M.2 PCIe x4 SSD Two 2TB EVO 860 SSDs Sound Blaster ZxR Win 10 x64 Pro HOTAS Cougar #4069 w/Uber II Nxt mod #284 & UTM bushings
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#1389734 - 12/09/03 12:00 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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YAAAAWWWWNNNNN.... This topic has been done to death. i think we can conclude that, 1, yes the germans had some early rotaries. 2, they were plagued with problems and were pretty hopeless.
yes the germans did capture allied planes and use them..dosent that tell you something?...or shall i spell it out?
Having a hand in modding a game dosent give anybody the right to try and twist history.
"Yes I do........
Founder of the first online historical squadron, and someone who makes mods for RB.
.......That's both SP & MMP, for those who are keeping score"
tell me what relevance this statement has? you complain that people are trying to make you look like an idiot, but you persist in doing the job much better yourself.
You seem to totally disregard the premise that claims must be backed up with facts. So far we have had to listen to your persistant posts with no proof...nor is there any way you could show any.
So give it a rest because no one is listening.
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#1389735 - 12/09/03 01:03 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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8 years experience means nothing?
ROFLMAO!
Ok guys, whatever you say..........
Let's put it this way:
Whenever I add the rotaries in, the German hold their own, and even win. When I leave it stock, they get slaughtered.
What's everyone afraid of?
Yes, I said AFRAID.
Afraid you won't be able to fly in like Eroll Flynn & save the day?
........Boo hoo, I'm all broken up.
I think it's rather telling how you guys are fighting me on this so bad.......
You don't want the germans to be properly represented, because it shatters your pre-concieved notions.
Well I hate to break it to ya, but the allies LOST the air war!
Every WW1 game/sim to date DELIBERATELY chooses to limit the rotary aircraft germany had.
.......There's a reason for that.
If KOE is truly interested in making a SIM and not a game, they will add the rotary planes I suggest.
As far as I'm concerned, leaving the german rotaries out shows bias, and shows me that they aren't interested in how it really was back then.......
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#1389736 - 12/09/03 01:27 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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Originally posted by Binky Bartlett: You seem to totally disregard the premise that claims must be backed up with facts. So far we have had to listen to your persistant posts with no proof...nor is there any way you could show any.
So give it a rest because no one is listening. You want "facts" Binky? You want "proof"? Ok, chew on this: If "engine problems" are your EXCUSE for leaving out German planes, then we must also leave out the following ALLIED aircraft: DH2 Sopwith Camel Nieuport 17 Nieuport 24 SE5 SPAD 7 SPAD 13 In fact, EVERY allied aircraft with the Hispano-Souisa engine must be pulled from the game. Eddie Rickenbacker is on record working on his SPAD 13 on a regular basis due to breakdowns! Sopwith Camels would have engine failure for no apparent reason, and literally fall out of the sky! The DH2 would catch on fire all by itself! .......And I'm just getting warmed up, no pun intended. In fact, I can easily point out more probs with the Allied aircraft than I can the german. Wanna dance?
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#1389737 - 12/09/03 01:33 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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Another popular EXCUSE for leaving out german planes is the imbargo. Well, the Allies had an "imbargo" as well........ THE GERMAN U-BOAT. So, if we're gonna go that route, then I guess we won't be flying many planes, now will we?
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#1389738 - 12/09/03 03:50 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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ok let me put it another way... gimme numbers produced numbers used and kills for these models you want to include.
backed up by evidence to confirm your findings.
ill start you off...fokker razor...i can only find reference to 1 confirmed kill.
hardly an earthshattering contribution.
so do we have a game full of these things?
you talked of games and sims....a sim is something that is as realistic as possible.
a game is not.
you are arguing in favour of a game and contradicting yourself.
i want a factual sim not some game that will feed your teutonic fantasy.
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#1389739 - 12/09/03 06:04 PM
Re: Early German Rotary Aircraft
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PatWilson
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Originally posted by Chock Holocaust: I'd quite like to see the Fokker D3, which as you'll probably know, is the rotary biplane von Richtofen flew briefly in between using other more famous mounts. It's never really turned up in sims, but if it was good enough for the Baron to score in, it's good enough for me. How it handled would probably be largely guesswork. Though for a bit of help guessing, take a look at some of the early pics of Anthony Fokker looping the Eindecker (at a scary low altitude) if you think might have been slow and cumbersome!
While more is always better, the Fokker D.II might be a better choice. The D.III started to come on line just prior to the Albatros D.I and D.II and was more of an overshadowed contemporary of those types. The D.II was available earlier and was more significant in bridging the gap between Eindecker and and Albatros. Of course, both would be nice . The difference between the two is fairly significant. The D.II was powered by the same 80/100 HP engine as the E.III, while the D.III used the 160 double bank engine of the E.IV. The D.III also carried two guns. The difference between the D.II and D.II would be similar to the difference between the E.IV and E.III. The D.III would be faster (10 MPH) and have better firepower, but it would also be less handy and more difficult to fly. Shameless plug: while you're waiting on KOE have you thought of giving WFP a go? We have the Rolands D.II, Martynside, Gunbus, Fokker D.II, Fokker D.III and lots more already flyable in Red Baron.
The lucky man is the man who leaves as little to chance as possible.
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