1. You notice your Belgian RE-8 has a different cowling & engine than the British one does.

2. Your wingman actually clears your tail.

3. Paris, London & Berlin are actually in the game.

4. You're assigned to patrol the English Channel, and actually spot & engage seaplanes.

5. You're a german pilot, and you get assigned something other than an Albatros.

6. You're Dutch, and you actually have Dutch Units you can join.

7. You're a French pilot, and you get to fly something other than a Nieuport.

8. Your "no-name" wingman gets to have a custom paint scheme & personal aircraft when he becomes famous.

9. The newspaper says more than "Great Victory!" or "Great Loss!".

10. The wheels on my aircraft not only roll, but the wheels on the various ground objects do too.

11. You're assigned to strafe or bomb a convoy heading North, and not only is the convoy there, but it's heading North too.

12. Your mission is to fly a Zeppelin Patrol in a BE-12 from Biggin Hill, and all 3 are in the game.

13. Your Bavarian pilot is awarded Bavarian Medals in addition to his Prussian ones.

14. Your late war german rotary plane has an engine other than the obsolete 110 hp Oberursel.

15. Some Sopwith Pups are brought down intact when attacking your aerodrome, and you get to fly one & paint it how you wish.

16. German patrols consist of more than just you & one other plane.

17. 1917 American pilots use the American Star symbol, not a roundel.

18. The second "Bloody April" is in the sim, and acurately portrayed.

19. The trenchline has moved due to the ground war.

20. You're flying a patrol as a german pilot, and you see a 3 winged AEG 2-seater, and you're not surprized.



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While all these would make excellent features to a WWI sim, (No doubt) they don't all have to be in it. These are your opinions as to what makes and breaks a WWI simulation for you. Remember that game designers and developers dont have all the time in the world. They must incorporate as much as they can, in as little time as they can, get it as accurate as they can and as bug free as they can.

That may be Argon - but if it's not asked for, then there is no chance of it ever happening.

Keep going Von Helton! If the ideas and requests aren't out there, then developers have no id4ea of whats wanted.

YES!!!

I was wondering when the RB modders were finally going to get around to these............how many YEARS has it been anyway???

Afterall, we're all gettin' tired of just playing Red Baron "the game".

This is called reversing the argument VH. :rolleyes:

No offense, but I'm not interested in waiting for years to play Pie in the Sky!!!

21. Josef Jacobs brags about his Clerget powered Dr1.......And the engine is there.

22. Months later, you brag about your 200 hp Goebel Go powered Dr1.....and it's there.

23. Your mission is to intercept Short Bombers in your Hansa-Brandenburg W-12 before they bomb your U-Boats.......And all are in the game.

24. You're not surprized to find all of your online friends in the Pub, reading the newspaper & waiting for the claxon to sound.

25. Your plane catches fire, and a fire truck comes out & puts the fire out.

26. Your german ambulance looks different than the Allied one does.

27. You can park your plane inside the hangar if you wish.

28. The buildings in a city are different than the ones in a small town.

29. You're assigned an "Infantry Support" mission, and the infantry exists.

30. You're assigned to Jasta 73, and not surprized to be flying a Pfalz Dr1.

31. You're assigned to a Kest Unit, and your not surprized to see it outfitted with Fokker E4's, Fokker D2's & Fokker D3's.

32. You land your wasserflugzeug on the water, and it doesn't immediately sink.

33. ......But the U-Boat does.

34. The enemy flies into a cloud, and you can't hit a key to find them.

35. You have a phonograph in your billets, and can listen to classical music on it.

36. .......And it's not the same damn song ever time.

37. When you create a new pilot, he MUST attend flight school.

38. When you get a medal, a brass band plays.

39. When you fly over a city, you see horse & buggy going to & fro.......And you're not surprized.

40. After returning from a night patrol, the ground crew has fire barrels or crude lights set up so you can land.



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errr, VH... I dare you to try to taxi a Dr I into a hangar IRL, you'd never want to do it... that's where the ground personnel comes in... you land on the meadow (it really wasn't ever more than that) in front of the buildings, hop out of the plane, give the chief armourer a pat on the shoulder, 'cos the double spandaus never missed a beat, and gaily stride over to the mess to report to your fellow officers they'll need to shoot down one more to keep up with you...

That's the idea. The ground crew come out, grab the plane & put it in the hangar.......And it doesn't take damage or catch on fire when they do.



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[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDmAiwZF...440697462522674[/img]

What is the point of this thread?
Is VH saying he knows of a sim which does all this or is it a wish list?
If the latter, get a life! A very long one , you are going to need it by the time the poor developers make your fantasies come true.

Such Negativity from some folks! Pie in the Sky? Actually most of the suggestions should be easy to do. Let's review each of them

1. You notice your Belgian RE-8 has a different cowling & engine than the British one does.

A minor point, but one that shouldn't be that hard to do. If you set up your game so that you have 'sub-slots' for each plane type, you can have different subtypes of RE-8 planes. Making the cowling change is a minor thing, and you just have to assign the changed plane a slot and assign it to be in the correct unit. Its likely not worth it for this plane, but it WOULD be worth it for variants of the Camel, for example.

2. Your wingman actually clears your tail.

This is a function of a good AI. We all want good AI in the single play version of the game.

3. Paris, London & Berlin are actually in the game.

How big should the maps of a front be? I don't know if Berlin should be in the game, but Paris and London certainly. Both were within range of German aircraft and both were bombed.

4. You're assigned to patrol the English Channel, and actually spot & engage seaplanes.

Should there be a part of this game that includes seaplanes and sea operations? I think so, yes. Should it be introduced in the first release of the game? Maybe not. Maybe this is a good addon. But I do think you should be able to take off in a Sopwith Baby and fly over Ypres and land on a river. May sound silly, but the war didn't end at water's edge.

5. You're a german pilot, and you get assigned something other than an Albatros.

This one's easy. If there are scouts or multiple-seat aircraft other than Albatros types, then they should be assigned. That already happens in other sims.

6. You're Dutch, and you actually have Dutch Units you can join.

The Dutch were neutral and I don't see any reason to have their units included in this sim. This is a minor point and not worth much consideration IMO.

7. You're a French pilot, and you get to fly something other than a Nieuport.

See the comment on the Albatros above.

8. Your "no-name" wingman gets to have a custom paint scheme & personal aircraft when he becomes famous.

I don't know. Its possible. This would be especially useful for German pilots, as the British didn't paint their planes much to start. This would entail a lot more slots for 'aces' or something similar. Its a programming decision and I don't know how much work it would entail.

9. The newspaper says more than "Great Victory!" or "Great Loss!".

This assumes that there would be a newspaper a-la Red Baron. A minor detail at best.

10. The wheels on my aircraft not only roll, but the wheels on the various ground objects do too.

It should happen and should be easy to do.

11. You're assigned to strafe or bomb a convoy heading North, and not only is the convoy there, but it's heading North too.

Is this a purely air-to-air sim, or is there interaction with the ground? If you have ground interaction (and you should IMO), then this makes sense. You generate 'missions' for ground units as well as aircraft units.

12. Your mission is to fly a Zeppelin Patrol in a BE-12 from Biggin Hill, and all 3 are in the game.

Do you make the defense of England part of the game? If the answer is yes, then this should be in there.

13. Your Bavarian pilot is awarded Bavarian Medals in addition to his Prussian ones.

Immersion immersion immersion. Its like adding slots for planes or paint schemes. It depends on how much time and effort the programmers want to make to include the alternate medal schemes and if you can connect them to a pilot.

14. Your late war german rotary plane has an engine other than the obsolete 110 hp Oberursel.

Classic Baron von Helton obsession which doesn't merit comment.

15. Some Sopwith Pups are brought down intact when attacking your aerodrome, and you get to fly one & paint it how you wish.{/B]

Do you allow for captured aircraft, and can you fly them? Minor point, but would be fun if the programmers could figure out how to do it.

[B]16. German patrols consist of more than just you & one other plane.

???? That should be a given.

17. 1917 American pilots use the American Star symbol, not a roundel.

Accuracy in depicting unit insignia goes with this point.

18. The second "Bloody April" is in the sim, and acurately portrayed.

I don't understand the reference. Black September you mean, when the Fokker D7 came up against poorly trained and poorly armed American units in 1918?

19. The trenchline has moved due to the ground war.

Yes, absolutely.

20. You're flying a patrol as a german pilot, and you see a 3 winged AEG 2-seater, and you're not surprized.[/B}

This is part of Mr. Helton's campaign to see more three-winged aircraft in a sim, and is based on his personal bias rather than fact IMO.

[B]21. Josef Jacobs brags about his Clerget powered Dr1.......And the engine is there.

22. Months later, you brag about your 200 hp Goebel Go powered Dr1.....and it's there.

Mr. Helton has a few obsessions. One is rotary aircraft for Germany. The second is three-winged aircraft for Germany in general. The third and biggest concerns the Fokker Dr.1. Any comments made by him concerning these topics should be examined very critically, IMO.

23. Your mission is to intercept Short Bombers in your Hansa-Brandenburg W-12 before they bomb your U-Boats.......And all are in the game.

See comments on #4 above.

24. You're not surprized to find all of your online friends in the Pub, reading the newspaper & waiting for the claxon to sound.

This is part of the 'living aerodrome' concept that's been batted around for a few years now. It would require a lot of programming and wouldn't add much to the flight part of the sim. It would be nice to have a virtual world at the base if possible, but its not 100% necessary IMO.

25. Your plane catches fire, and a fire truck comes out & puts the fire out.

Ground units do what they're supposed to do and are not static. Makes sense.

26. Your german ambulance looks different than the Allied one does.

How detailed should the ground world be?

27. You can park your plane inside the hangar if you wish.

Minor detail, but the hangers should be open spaces into which things can go.

28. The buildings in a city are different than the ones in a small town.

Immersion again and a question of how rich you want to make the ground environment.

29. You're assigned an "Infantry Support" mission, and the infantry exists.

An old sore point of Red Baron fans, the loss of the infantry charge over no man's land when RB3D was introduced. Might be nice to have, but I'm sure it would be done differently today than it was in RBII

30. You're assigned to Jasta 73, and not surprized to be flying a Pfalz Dr1.

See comments for #21 and #22. Should effort be expended on a minor aircraft? Not for the first release IMO.

31. You're assigned to a Kest Unit, and your not surprized to see it outfitted with Fokker E4's, Fokker D2's & Fokker D3's.

All late 1916 aircraft that should be included in the game, IMO.

32. You land your wasserflugzeug on the water, and it doesn't immediately sink.

33. ......But the U-Boat does.

Again, a water environment and water campaign. It should be there eventually.

34. The enemy flies into a cloud, and you can't hit a key to find them.

Yes, this should happen.

35. You have a phonograph in your billets, and can listen to classical music on it.

Living Aerodrome concept. See comment #24.

36. .......And it's not the same damn song ever time.

Living Aerodrome concept. See comment #24.

37. When you create a new pilot, he MUST attend flight school.

Training module, something I worked on for 17 Hours. It would be a lot of work to do. It would add to the immersion factor, but would require a lot more programming time. It would also require different planes as those used for training sometimes never saw front-line service. An ambitious idea.

38. When you get a medal, a brass band plays.

A minor point, should be easy to do.

39. When you fly over a city, you see horse & buggy going to & fro.......And you're not surprized.

Again, how active should the ground environment be, and how much interaction should you have with it? IMO, this should happen and shouldn't be that big of an issue.

40. After returning from a night patrol, the ground crew has fire barrels or crude lights set up so you can land.

Small point, but if you want to do more night missions (which is historical) there should be some provision for night landings other than setting the AI to do it automatically.

Droops

The point is that over the past four years or so we've seen WWI flight sim projects announced, lanquish, disappoint, and/or disappear!

The drumbeat sounds out the names........17-Hours, Birds Of Prey, IL-2 WWI..........

Now with Knights Over Europe we have perhaps the best chance for a real honest to goodness Great War flight sim coming to the marketplace, and maybe next year!

Yep, we've seen allot of Pie in the Sky in these past four years, but I for one am hungry as hell to relish the sweet taste of something fresh, different, and real!!!

When Aspect Simulations announced Knights Over Europe in the Spring of 2003, there's no telling how many months or years the design team had invested in the sim's development to that date, but we were treated to screenshots of highly intricate models, terrain, and effects. Now with perhaps less than twelve months to release, the fan community continues to pour out it's wish list of "must have" features.......so KOE will be "complete", not a Game, but a Sim!

Less than twelve months to go........final feature-set development, model completion, skins, maps & GUI artwork progressing, sounds and music evolving, hardware compliance checking, bugs need fixing, beta testing to come, final fixing and polishing yet to be tackled.......hey look, here comes another list of must haves.................

21. Josef Jacobs brags about his Clerget powered Dr1.......And the engine is there.

22. Months later, you brag about your 200 hp Goebel Go powered Dr1.....and it's there.

23. Your mission is to intercept Short Bombers in your Hansa-Brandenburg W-12 before they bomb your U-Boats.......And all are in the game.

24. You're not surprized to find all of your online friends in the Pub, reading the newspaper & waiting for the claxon to sound.

25. Your plane catches fire, and a fire truck comes out & puts the fire out..............

Dreaming and wishing for something is one thing..........but sometimes I wonder where the real world ends and the fantasy begins!

Sure, but being a Dutchman I'd sure like to be not so neutral if only for once :p

Thanks Von Helton. I appreciate your consideration

Don't be so negetive FlyXwire.

For a start Birds Of prey is still under development, and on schdeule for a 2004 release; IL-2 WWI is still open; and Targetware is also developing a WWI sim. Of the ones you have mentioned only 17 hours (I like that title) bombed.

Get your facts right pips,
Birds of prey is not being worked on, we will probably never see it.
Target flanders site hasnt had any new info on it for more than a year, it looks dead.
IL2 ww1 is no more.
The guy isnt being negative hes a realist.
There are too many of you dreamers out there.

Thanks BB!!!

Although I'd never say never on BOP, the fact is IL2 WWI and BOP are at levels of little developmental progress.

We also have to contemplate at what level of development KOE is actually at presently.

I think most conceptualizing by Aspect Simulations has long transpired! With a potential release date for later this coming year, the time for major design changes is probably long gone. Plane sets have been formalized, maps required have been decided, historical units or figures have been identified, flight modeling parameters explored, etc., etc.!

Frankly, the idea of fan "wish lists" still coming to the fore at this late date, which might actually be implemented seems unlikely to me.

Again, we should never say never!

Shall we all realistically maintain an optimistic view that what Aspect has in store for us might be the best WWI flight sim experience yet........yep! Been approaching these forum discussions from that point of view from the very beginning!

I'll be happy "as pie" just to see a new Great War flight sim on my hard drive someday.............and if it only has 40 planes, so be it! If Berlin is not included on the playing map, big deal, and if so and so from some Jasta doesn't make the cut will it be the end of the world.................NEVER!!!

Geez, how optimistic can an attitude be??? LOL!

BB, it's you who needs to keep abreast of things.

Brids of Prey is still currently in progress, just go to the Forum and see whats happening. Being a private development it is slow progress, but still progress. And Targetware's WWI is also still under development, but it's a closed shop at present. I know, I'm part of the team.

Oh no!!! Don't go to the BOP forum, or you're gonna to have to listen to me some more!

Hey Pips, I'll make you a little deal..........I'll buy you BOP if it comes out before KOE goes to market, but you'll do the same for me instead, if KOE releases first!

No strings attached (except shipping of course).

No way Fly!!

BoP isn't scheduled for release until 4th quarter 2004. Knights is early next year (I think). You would win hands down!

LOL!

I wasn't trying to trick you Pips, KOE's release date was extended to Q4 2004 a while back:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_069a.html

Probably a good thing, so more polish can be added before she ships!

I need to keep abreast of things pips?
Nothing is being worked on at birds of prey..its at a complete standstill, for standstill see NOT GOING ANYWHERE.That game will never happen imho, certainly not before koe if at all.

If you are part of the target flanders team why the hell dont you update the website then?...it tells me that theres nothing going on if theres no new info for over a year.You tell me i need to keep abreast of things??...what am i a mind reader?.Give us all an update and a projected release date then.

The bottom line is i cant play maybe games or wait for people who arent serious.

The people at koe ARE serious and i have no doubt that they will produce something i can play in the future.

It may sound harsh but i wish the rest of the so called game developers out there would shut up until they have work they can show us or targets they can meet.
Im tired listening to folks who blow their own trumpet and make claims they dont make good on.

Bop? after years what have we got? ramblings about how good the game engine is, a model viewer and thats it, also a guy with a high handed attitude who has more or less told everyone to go away and that he dosent need anyones support.

Well i WONT be buying his game anyway his attitude alone is enough to make me take my buisiness elsewhere.

I have great respect for people who produce patches for games and further the enjoyment of ww1 simmers its time consuming and done for the love of it. Even BvH, i dont agree with hardly anything he says but hes done some great stuff and must be respected for it.

But folks who set up sites and make grand promises without seeing them through i have NO respect for.

They are WASTING MY TIME !!!!!!