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#1389253 - 09/19/03 05:26 PM No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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Now that we've heard from the peanut gallery as to why the allies were allowed to have rotary engines and the germans were not, let's see if we can get past the allied propaganda & get to the TRUTH.

1. If rotary engines are so bad, why are most of the allied planes using this engine?

2. If the germans didn't have any success with rotary engines, why did they continue to build planes with those engines?

3. If rotary engines were so bad, why were the first radial engines made out of converted rotaries?

The Scene:

1917

MvR storms into Idflieg and says "These albatros aircraft SUCK! When are you gonna give me a better rotary engine for our planes?"

Idflieg promises MvR that they will produce a 145 hp rotary to replace the 110 hp.

After this takes place, digging through some paperwork, we find old 110 rotary engines laying all over the place, and the Hauptman getting someone to clear up the mess.

Not long after that, the german pilots are no longer stealing rotary engines from allied planes.

Now anyone with a BRAIN can conclude that Idflieg kept their promise.

How? Because "Triplanes" start showing up in large numbers........Whole Squadrons of them!

They engage French SPAD 13's, and the french are decimated.

How did the Dr1 with a weak 110 hp engine catch & overtake a SPAD with a 200 hp engine?

Now where did all these triplanes come from?

Why did artillery spotters say that they were "new aircraft"?

4. If the Siemens-Schukert engine was as bad as some claim, why were aircraft built for it?

Why did some versions of the Fokker Razor, Fokker Dr1, and other aircraft built with THAT ENGINE in mind?

You've heard it said that "rotary engines were phased out".........

This is total BS. Rotaries & radials continued to be used in post-war aircraft.

The last aircraft built for Germany is quite telling:

Fokker Razor
SSW D3
SSW D4
Pfalz D7
Pfalz D8
Pfalz Dr1

Note that ALL OF THE ABOVE ARE ROTARY AIRCRAFT....

According to French battle reports, WHOLE SQUADRONS of these aircraft not only existed, but engaged their aircraft in battle.

So this "only 10 planes" or "just a few examples" isn't gonna fly.

......Pardon the pun.


Now certainly, we can grab a WW1 "historian" who will emphatically state that the germans didn't have large numbers of rotary planes, or open a book that says something similar.

But when you actually do some digging, you come away with a far different outlook.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#1389254 - 09/19/03 05:37 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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German Rotaries (cont.)

1. "The germans only had the 110 hp Oberursel"

FALSE.

110 hp Oberursel
145 hp Oberursel
160 hp Siemens-Schukert
145 hp Goebel Go
200 hp Goebel Go

......There's probably more than that.

So this PURE CRAP that the Germans didn't have sufficient rotary engines is garbage.

#1389255 - 09/19/03 10:11 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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#1389256 - 09/19/03 10:12 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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"...as to why the allies were allowed to have rotary engines and the germans were not..."

Where do you come up with these statements???

Are you interested in information, or just in forwarding your agenda?

#1389257 - 09/19/03 10:16 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
"...as to why the allies were allowed to have rotary engines and the germans were not..."

Where do you come up with these statements???

Are you interested in information, or just in forwarding your agenda?
FlyX,

ANYONE can yank stuff out of a book. It takes far more to put the pieces on the table & put the puzzel together.

\:D

#1389258 - 09/19/03 11:13 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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No Sir!

It is your contention that this statement has some relationship to the conversations that have transpired here on this forum:
Quote:
Now that we've heard from the peanut gallery as to why the allies were allowed to have rotary engines and the germans were not, let's see if we can get past the allied propaganda & get to the TRUTH.
Who amongst us here has supported this statement???

Where on this forum did this statement originate???

#1389259 - 09/20/03 02:11 AM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
No Sir!

Where on this forum did this statement originate???
You mean I imagined the vitriol in the 50 planes thread?

I imagines how everyone jumped on the german rotary bandwagon, and how having german rotary aircraft in KOE is some sort of unwritten sin or something?

The 11th Commandment:

"Thou shalt not allow the Germans in KOE to have rotary aircraft"

.

#1389260 - 09/20/03 03:17 AM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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VonHelton, you're one of a kind!!! \:\)

I hope someone with as much imagination and color commentary as you will at least hang around long enough to finally enjoy KOE's release.

Are you in it for the long haul VH?

#1389261 - 09/20/03 07:11 AM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyXwire:
VonHelton, you're one of a kind!!! \:\)

I hope someone with as much imagination and color commentary as you will at least hang around long enough to finally enjoy KOE's release.

Are you in it for the long haul VH?
Doubtful. That stupid worm wiped out my AGP slot (and possibly my Geoforce Card as well), and the only thing I know of to do is buy a new motherboard.

.......Unfortunately, that's not possible for now.

#1389262 - 09/20/03 11:55 AM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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Quote:
1. If rotary engines are so bad, why are most of the allied planes using this engine?
The rotary engine is not a bad engine per se, it is a reasonably effective way of powering an aircraft. The allies had a huge requirement for engines and so engine manufacturers built rotaries as they are somewhat simpler and lighter than their in-line bretheren.

Quote:
2. If the germans didn't have any success with rotary engines, why did they continue to build planes with those engines?
The majority of German aircraft manufacturers abandoned the rotary, in the short term at least. Fokker believed that the rotary was a good concept, and bought the Oberursel company for the purpose of attempting to get a good rotary engine out of the poor ones they were producing. If he had been successful then German rotaries would almost certainly matched the later allied ones and it would have been stupid not to design aircraft capable of taking this new improved engine. Unfortunately although Oberursel promised the goods and the aircraft were constructed to take them, the greatly improved engines did not appear. Please see my thread on the Frugalsworld forum about German historian Weyl and Rheinhold Platz's view of German engines.

Quote:
3. If rotary engines were so bad, why were the first radial engines made out of converted rotaries?
The earliest radial engines were stationary rotaries. The big mechanical problem with the rotary is the stresses caused by its rotation. By only having a rotating crankshaft a lot of the issues with the rotary were removed or significantly reduced. Yes, the early radials were converted rotaries, but the type diverged extremely rapidly from anything resembling the rotary in all but shape. With a radial you can fit much more efficient valve gear, use robust components which would be too heavy in a rotary and also fit a proper carburetter.

Quote:
Not long after that, the german pilots are no longer stealing rotary engines from allied planes.
Please state your sources.

Quote:
How? Because "Triplanes" start showing up in large numbers........Whole Squadrons of them!
Fokker bought 700 Thulin built Le Rhone rotary engines and fitted them to the Dr1.

Quote:
How did the Dr1 with a weak 110 hp engine catch & overtake a SPAD with a 200 hp engine?
By bouncing them when they were just cruising along?

Quote:
Now where did all these triplanes come from?
The Fokker factory. Fokker built the Fokker Dr.1 IIRC.

Quote:
Why did artillery spotters say that they were "new aircraft"?
Presumably they had not seen the Dr1 before, or could tell they were new by the "new aeroplane smell."

Quote:
4. If the Siemens-Schukert engine was as bad as some claim, why were aircraft built for it?
In just the same way that the allies built aircraft for a promised new super engine but were disappointed when the engine had problems or even failed to appear ( DH9s with the Siddley Puma engine is a good example, or the BAT Bantam with it's ABC Wasp radial.) This was not an issue confined to WW1 either as witness such aircraft as the Hawker Tornado and the Napier Sabre engine in WW2.

Quote:
Why did some versions of the Fokker Razor, Fokker Dr1, and other aircraft built with THAT ENGINE in mind?
Why, if a better engine was available, were the Razor, Dr1 and the prototype Pfalz Dr2 NOT fitted with the ShIII?

Quote:
You've heard it said that "rotary engines were phased out".........
This is total BS. Rotaries & radials continued to be used in post-war aircraft.
Radials are NOT rotaries. Do not lump them in with the rotary as it gives an entirely false impression.
A little like lumping jet engines in with rocket engines "as the exhaust comes out a tube." Post war the take up on radial engines was phenominal, with just a few rotary designs primarily using up stocks of surplus engines.

Quote:
The last aircraft built for Germany is quite telling:

Fokker Razor
SSW D3
SSW D4
Pfalz D7
Pfalz D8
Pfalz Dr1

Note that ALL OF THE ABOVE ARE ROTARY AIRCRAFT....
I believe you have missed out the LVG Roland D.VIb, Fokker D.VII, Pfalz D.XII, Pfalz D.XIV, Pfalz D.XV (for some of the single seat aircraft alone), which supports the view that the in-line engined aircraft was also being constructed or developed. Some 800+ Fok.D.VII were delivered.

Quote:
According to French battle reports, WHOLE SQUADRONS of these aircraft not only existed, but engaged their aircraft in battle.
SS D.III and SS D.IV yes, the others, PLEASE state your sources.


Quote:
Now certainly, we can grab a WW1 "historian" who will emphatically state that the germans didn't have large numbers of rotary planes, or open a book that says something similar.
True, HORDES of historians and books, some written by Germans between the wars and in colloboration with the people who built the aircraft and engines in question.

Quote:
But when you actually do some digging, you come away with a far different outlook.
Please, please, please, give us your sources - ANYTHING we can look up and verify.

Quote:
1. "The germans only had the 110 hp Oberursel"
FALSE.
110 hp Oberursel
145 hp Oberursel
160 hp Siemens-Schukert
145 hp Goebel Go
200 hp Goebel Go
......There's probably more than that.
The 220hp Siemens-Halske ShIIIa, for one.

Quote:
So this PURE CRAP that the Germans didn't have sufficient rotary engines is garbage.
True, they had sufficient. But the ones they had were prone to failure, obsolescent, or unsuccessful.

Quote:
"Thou shalt not allow the Germans in KOE to have rotary aircraft"
The Fokker Dr.1 and SS D.III/IV should be in the game, even if the game does not portray engine failure or even the power loss at altitude, as these were significant aircraft. The others, possibly not.

Btw, from your "Elusive Pfalz" page you mention the Snipe being "experimental." Although all aircraft can be considered so at some point in their development, it is a strange appellation for an aircaft that had orders for 1700 machines placed in March 1918 and entered service in September.

Don't forget Ockham's Razor.

Sorry to hear about the mobo problem. I take it reflashing the bios hasn't helped?


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#1389263 - 09/20/03 12:54 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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VH, maybe all this forum fire and brimstone burned out your AGP.

Speaking of fire and brimstone.......holy SunScream, that's one hell of a retort!

Hey, you've got me so convinced now I'm going out to my local airfield this afternoon for hit of some of that "new aeroplane smell"!!! \:D \:D \:D

#1389264 - 09/20/03 01:27 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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Talking about new aeroplane smells.

A few(?) years back a gleaming yellow Tiger Moth with new fabric landed in a field not far from my parents house. The pilot had run out of fuel(!) so he went away in search of some.

When he came back a few hours later he got a bit of a shock. It seems that the smell of the evaporating dope and/or paint had attracted some cows who, being cows, proceeded to eat the fabric straight off the wings!

Yum, yum.

\:\)

#1389265 - 09/20/03 01:47 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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Holy cow!!! ;\)

#1389266 - 09/20/03 02:27 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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Quote:
holy SunScream, that's one hell of a retort!
I hope I don't come over too "fire and brimstone" as I am trying to be as objective and dispassionate as possible.
However the "new aircraft" bit did mystify me somewhat - how did they KNOW they were new?
It must either have been the smell or possibly the observers jumped from their Voisins/Dorands into the Dr1's cockpits, copied down the serial numbers from the instruments, jumped back, and after returning to base looked up the numbers in a fortuitously captured copy of the German instruments manufacturing list.

Aircraft serial numbers don't help as they were allocated to the factories from high command based on orders and expected production runs. They were grouped by type (C,CL,D,E, etc.) and ran in sequence from the start of the year: e.g. in 1918 Roland had the numbers 1200-1249 allocated for their 50 D.VIa machines, Pfalz then had the next 150 for their D.IIIa, the 200 after that for the D.XII, and so on.
Some aircraft serials can make it look as if far greater numbers of the plane were produced than was really the case - hence we can get a Roland C.II with the serial 427 when around 250-300 were built.

Quote:
attracted some cows who, being cows, proceeded to eat the fabric straight off the wings!
Bet that made the milk taste funny.
"Odd, normally when I put milk on my cornflakes they go soft, not get harder."


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#1389267 - 09/20/03 03:49 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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Originally posted by VonHelton:
Now that we've heard from the peanut gallery as to why the allies were allowed to have rotary engines and the germans were not, let's see if we can get past the allied propaganda & get to the TRUTH.

Ummm, as part of the peanut gallery, I think you were not following along with the content.

1. If rotary engines are so bad, why are most of the allied planes using this engine?

For my part at least I was not addressing the technology of the motor...I was posting on the topic of airframes (specifically Fokker D.I and D.II that just happened to have rotary motors).

From your posting, you left me with the impression you thought the Fokker D.I and D.II were "tits machines" kicking *ss and taking names of the RFC. You suggested that Boelcke himself was impressed with these machines (again saying NOTHING about the motor). There is NO EVIDENCE to support your claim...that's all. \:\)

Evidence suggests that Boelcke was not impressed and complained about the workmanship as well as the flying qualities of these fighters. You may know otherwise...help me to see the light.

Suggesting that any of the peanut gallery is anti-rotary, or anti-german rotary, or anti-whatever is simply an incorrect inference on your part. \:\(


Robey

#1389268 - 09/20/03 08:23 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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Quickly!!

If you guys hurry, you can notify Mazda that the rotary engine sucks, and save them from producing the new RX sports car!!

.......Scratch that, they already built it.

Bummer! Had you bunch just been a little quicker.......

#1389269 - 09/20/03 08:54 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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"Give us your sources!"

"Are your papers in order?"

MY SOURCES:

MvR
LvR
Berthold
Jacobs
Udet
Neckel
Rummy
Stark

........And a few others.

#1389270 - 09/20/03 10:25 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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Oh VH!!! :rolleyes:

Mazda utilizes Wankel's internal rotary engine technology, which employs a triangular rotor that revolves inside a stationary engine case.

Online Description

The Wankel is nothing like the aero-rotaries of the First World War, but then I'm sure you knew that! ;\)

#1389271 - 09/20/03 10:41 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  
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Quote:
MY SOURCES:

MvR
LvR
Berthold
Jacobs
Udet
Neckel
Rummy
Stark
Now we are starting to get somewhere. Can you give us the author and book or document title and either page numbers or quote detail of the exact phrases/text used (it doesn't matter if it is in German)

Thanks \:\)


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#1389272 - 09/20/03 10:49 PM Re: No Rotary engines for the Germans?  

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The Flash Utility says that flashing my BIOS is not available on my machine.

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