Red Baron came out with 50 aircraft. Some people would argue that this was more than enough aircraft. Those of us who actually work on it found out different. The air war was an interaction not only between pilots, but different plane types.

:p

If certain plane types are missing, you end up with a skewed perception of what really happened. Leaving the german rotary aircraft out of RB produced a slaughter-fest of the Germans in the game.



History shows that no such activity took place. In fact, the allies got their butts kicked on a regular basis, even WITH a numerical superiority, right up to the end of the war.

Now we can believe that a handful of German aces kicked the Allies in the behind, or we can believe that leaving out certain plane types was wrong.




__________________

You'll put yourself out of work. No ROTJs for KoE?

I am not sure that RBII made any serious omissions with the German fighters.

You mention rotaries. These were failures. The Foker E.IV, D.II, D.III were not suitable for the frontline. By the time the Siemens Schuckert DIII and D.IV arrive, the poor quality of German castor fuel was such that rotaries were not effecive. The only omission here, would be the Fokker E.V or D.VIII. It is not a favorite of mine but, it seems to be expected due to the inordinate amount of depiction it received over the years.

The main fighter omission in RBII is the Sopwith Dolphin. ONly flown by a few units, it was probably the best of the Sopwiths.

I think that some significant recon aircraft should have been included: Caudron G.IV, Voisin L3 and later models, Rumpler C.VII (High Altitude), FE2d (Rolls Royce powered FE2b), LVG C.II, (significant early recon),Junkers J.I/J4, AW FK 8 (Big Ack), DH9, DFW C.V (most numerous German type) and some of the later Albatros C class aircraft.

THe RB plane set is a good starter set. If they had grabbed ten of the above listed, including the Dolphin, I would have been a very happy camper.

Sopwith Dolphin:RB3D WFP...what a beast!!

The Fokker D.II & D.III were built in very large numbers. I have the pics to prove it.

So I'm at a loss as to why you'd think they were unimportant?

They were not successful aircraft. You are essentially looking at two wing-warping bi-planes, one of which had the very heavy twin row Oberusal.

They had a limited time at the front and were quickly replaced by the Halberstadt and the Albatros D.I.

The DII was relegated to Kest duty in Germany.

They were not successful aircraft. You are essentially looking at two wing-warping bi-planes, one of which had the very heavy twin row Oberusal.

They had a limited time at the front and were quickly replaced by the Halberstadt and the Albatros D.I.

The DII was relegated to Kest duty in Germany.

The B.E.2 series was built in even larger numbers. No one would argue that it was a superior plane.

Just because something was built in large numbers doesn't mean it was superior.

Besides, in relative terms all of the early planes had lower production runs. Its not like the early Fokkers were filling the sky.

It would be nice to include these planes in a game, as they do fill a gap between the early Eindeckers and the Halb and Alb scouts. However, suggesting that they would turn the tide against the early Allied scouts is not realistic.

Droops

Well... The people at Aspect face a very interesting challenge. They have to get a reasonable number of important aircraft in-game, with fully detailed cockpits and 3d model, realistic FM and DM and then a nice hi-res skin.

Creating aircraft for KOE is FAR more harder and advanced than creating aircraft in RB3d. I should know, it takes a reasonable ammount of time to create an aircraft for FS-WWI and KOE's models are mostly superior and will sport an even more superior FM and DM system!! (Average about 2-3 months per aircraft, sometimes even longer) I would rather have quality rather than quantity (You remember the original RB3d 3d models, FM and DM don't you? Sure stock RB3d had plenty of aircraft, BUT THEY SUCKED! )

So, If KOE has at least 15 aircraft, modeled realisticly, I will be completely happy! However, I do stress the importance to allow KOE to be expandable the way FS-WWI is. Meaning we can add an unlimited number of aircraft, squadrons, missions, terrains, ground/sea units, and GUI edits. In FS-WWI, there is basicly no limit to what the user community can add. There is no such thing as a "slot"...

The Germans won't get the rotary aircraft that they had in real life, and once again, an unrealistic view of how it really happened up there will be repeated.

I submit that the (continued) apprehension of allowing german rotary aircraft is due to the PASTING the allies would recieve if they were slotted in.

......A pasting that they really got.

Oh well. Another "Errol Flynn" job, worthy of setting my drinks on.

:rolleyes:

Do you have any idea what detailed aircraft I could build under the KOE Platform?

If you haven't seen it yet, go check out my Mercedes Engine for RB.

.....Now times that by 50, and you'd be close.

Rotary aircraft are more manuverable than inlines. So naturally, I can see why some would prefer the germans be limited to inline aircraft.

I have seen that lastest version of your mercedes engine. VERY NICE, i'd like to see it in a beta aircraft soon?

Well... Who's to say the early German rotaries won't get added in? Do you know the final plane-set?

Soon! In fact, I'm working on an Albatros fuselage as we speak!

There's a saying:

"The squeeky wheel gets the grease".

I'm sqweeking, but it's drown out by the sea of sqweeks around me.

So the *real* reason you want rotary kraut planes is so that you can give the allies a pasting. Am I clear on that?

And Front-Line inventories?

Fokker D.II (end of month totals, 1916)
Aug. 10
Oct. 49
Dec. 68
Ordered withdrawn and reassigned primarily to Kesta, training, or Naval duty per Idflieg order of 6 December 1916.

Fokker D.III (end of month totals, 1916)
Aug. 7
Oct. 6
Dec. 34
-withdrawn- (see above)

From 31 August to 31 December 1916, almost half of the biplane fighters at the Front was composed of Fokker D-types.

From Fokker Fighters D.I-IV by P M Grosz, comes the following conclusion:

THE SUMMING UP
In early 1916, by virtue of the impressive victories made possible by his invention of the synchronized machine gun, Anthony Fokker and his monoplane fighter had gained the admiration, trust and respect of the German fighter pilots, whose prestigious Pour Ie Merite decoration made them instant hero-celebrities and provided marvellous Wagnerian funerals. Blinded by the rising Allied losses (labelled in British Parliament debates as 'Fokker Fodder') the Fliegertruppe had opted for more-powerful monoplanes at the expense of biplane fighter development. Caught by surprise at Verdun and on the Somme, the monoplane fighter's days were over. With accurate foresight and to his credit, Fokker had begun to evaluate the biplane fighter in early 1916 apparently without Idflieg financial backing. When called upon, his M 17 and M 18 fighter prototypes stood ready and Fokker received the bulk of the first production orders (see Table 1).

The Fokker company had been presented every opportunity to prove its design skills and manufacturing expertise in creating a series of biplane fighter types, including a 160-hp Mercedes version. But in the race to remain competitive, Fokker and his staff, his engineers and production people, his quality control department and government inspectors - failed miserably. As the above account makes patently clear, the engineering, manufacturing and quality control departments cannot escape the accusation of being slipshod, expedient and remiss, perhaps criminally so, but the air service authorities, respecting Fokker's reputation, may have been reluctant to take action. Fokker as chief executive was ultimately responsible for what occurred, but he was not and never claimed to be a manufacturing expert nor was he a qualified aeronautical1ngenieur. Inasmuch as the Fokker D.I-D.IV fighters were defective, Fokker's engineers and designers, factory supervisors and master craftsmen, had let him down. In my opinion, the head of the prototype metal-working shop, Reinhold Platz (who to the end of his life prided himself above all as an expert welder) must bear responsibility for the poor integrity of the welded structural components.

This bitter episode in the annals of the Fokker works marked the end of the company as a viable manufacturer of combat-worthy fighters for many months. After Kogenluft relegated the Fokker fighters to training service on 6 December 1916, almost a year would pass before a Fokker fighter would once again bask in the limelight of fame. Its reputation tarnished by gross oversight of the most basic manufacturing procedures and quality control practices, the Fokker company was reduced to building training aircraft, namely the Fokker D.V and the AEG C.N under licence. The latter, Tony Fokker claimed, 'made it possible to put my factory on a quantity production basis, with highly profitable results.

From the book Fokker Aircraft of World War One by Paul Leaman, comes the information:

With this proviso, the D.III remained in production but, on 6 December 1916, Kogenluft's embargo on the use of Fokker-built aircraft for combat purposes came into force. All of the D.IIIs in service and those still coming off the production line were either relegated to training duties or sent to home defence units-the Kampfeinsitzer Staffeln (Kestas) and one Naval Defence flight-where they continued to serve well into 1917.

Furthermore, on the most active and numerous of the early Fokker biplanes, Peter Grosz had this to say about the D.II:

Of all the Fokker fighters discussed herein, the D.II had the longest period of front-line service, spanning from August 1916 through August 1917 with a high of 68 aircraft reached in December 1916. The dearth of operational records makes it difficult to establish a niche for the D.II fighter. Driven by a mere 100 horsepower, the D.II possessed only limited combat effectiveness. Many were assigned to units located in less active sectors where high performance was not a factor. A clue to their deployment, found in the Fokker records, shows that of 24 D.II fighters accepted in December 1916, sixteen were sent directly to newly-established Kampfeinsitzer Staffeln (Kesta) based near German industrial cities to provide protection from Allied bombing raids. Eight were issued to training units or naval base defence flights. As of 21 December 1917, a total of 132 Fokker D.II fighters (73 percent of those built) remained in the Fliegertruppe inventory.

To do historical justice to the employment of biplane fighters into the Jasta inventories during the late months of 1916, it would be remiss not to model the inherent airframe defects that the Fokker D.I-D.III series suffered as a result of their poor manufacturing practices!

Yes, we must have these Fokker's indeed!!!

IMHO the biggest miss in RB3D was the lackof an early French recon/bomber. The Caudron was intended but never got in there. The Germans seriously lacked in late war 2 seaters with the 1915/6 Aviatik and Alb CIII soldiering on to the end of the war. The original intent behind WFP was to include these types. Then we added a few more ...

Being serious though, one of the things that WFP does nicely is model changes over time in major types. There is a significant difference between the 150 and 180 HP SPAD VII, a huge difference between the SE5 and SE5a, Fokker DVII and DVIIf, Clerget vs Bentley Camel, etc. If you are fighting a 180 HP SPAD in late 1916 you will be at a significant disadvantage.

Having said that, 50 planes in an initial release is a huge undertaking in a brand new sim. Anybody that complains that "there are only 50" knows zippo about product development. Now ... if only KOE combines the modability of RB with better FMs, improved AI (the is is IMHO the most important thing), and modern graphics we will be in great shape.

Your ability to cut & paste is phenominal, but I'd point out that the early "KEK" airfields were rather few. 120 aircraft back then would be more than enough to last quite awhile.