I've been doing some extensive BVR tests against the Mig-29 and SU-27's and the
dreaded R-77 MRM. Thought I would share the information, which might help those who
are getting shot down too often by the R-77 MRM

The following applies to a simple 1 v 1 for multiple BVR contacts you could fill a
book.

O.K. Fight On

I setup the TE at 50 miles starting range, head to head aspect, 25,000 feet

1: ECM on to deny bandit an early lock
2: Get high and fast, 30,000 feet plus to extend AIM-120 Rmax 500+ Kts
3: If bandit is jamming (no radar brick) you have to burn through the jammer, use RWS
with reduced barscans to 2 bars. If he's not jamming use TWS mode instead.
4: Achieve radar lock and fire just inside of Rmax
5: Crank right or left and put bandit at the edge of your radar gimbles
6: Reduce speed (Very important as this delays his launch Rmax)
7: Watch target aspect and your RWR spike and your WEZ circle
8: If bandit has turned away to defeat the AIM-120 long shot, turn back into him and
push the fight. You know if he has turned away as the RWR will not show a spike, and
your missile WEZ will shrink.
9: If bandit has fired you have two choices, but turn ECM off to deny HOJ

[a] (Aggressive) Keep him on the edge of radar gimbles untill your AIM-120 goes
pitbull, then slice back and run, full AB, put the RWR spike on your six. Go downhill
full AB, but if the RWR continues to show the M symbol, prepare to climb and then
beam the R-77 as it runs out of energy.

[b] (Defensive) Slice back and run before pitbull, he might leave his ECM on and your
slammer will go HOJ while you will outrun the R-77

I've had the AI do aggressive BVR tactics and defensive as well. Perhaps the most
challenging is the fight were the bandit turns away to defeat an AIM-120 long shot,
and as you push the fight, and get a medium range AIM-120 shot, he turns into you and
fires an R-77 at you. I found that a split S right at slammer pitbull with full AB
dive can shake the R-77 as the Mig is often destroyed.

No doubt others will have different tactics, but believe me, the above works very
well in a 1 v 1

Some fights were very cat and mouse and ended with no missile hits for either party.
However, the AI mostly likes to push the fight, so read up on A-pole E-Pole and
F-Pole and learn how to extend your Rmax, reduce enemy WEZ, and beat the R-77 with
style.

I usually do [a]. I've done [b], but only when I was sure I'd been fired on and there were other emerging threats in the area to deal with. I usually do [a] regardless of what's going on, as the few times I've pressed after cranking, I've been slapped. It's hard to tell if you've been shot at. By the time you see the "M" in the RWR, if you're not dragging, you're as good as dead. At 9 or 3 o'clock? Maybe, but put it at 6 fast. Forward quarter? Pretty much time to punch out. I'll typically forget my speed while cranking, but kudos to you for remembering.

Get as fast as possible for F-Pole, then crank and slow to corner (330 KCAS) until pitbull. That's what I (try to) do. After pitbull, drag. If an "M" shows up, get faster and fly a slow vertical "S" to slow the missile down. If not, look over your shoulder (get TrackIR) and look for impact. I always note what the time-to-impact was at pitbull and count down in my head. After impact, get a picture from AWACS, then re-engage or run. If I'm still being spiked, I never re-engage, because they're usually 20 miles out at this point. By the time you turn hot, you're well into their WEZ. If I hear other aircraft engaged, I may, since I might no longer be a target of interest. Risky, though.

Really good stuff there, but me, I'm going to be no higher than 16,000 to engage. Probably 12,000.

He gets first shot. Dragging is an art, but uses a lot of fuel.

Practice against the F22, Typhoon, and the F14. Those will teach a lot if it's set up right.

Ghostrider, you're an expert at gleaning information from multiple threads and forums for reposting :).

I only disagree with:

"6: Reduce speed (Very important as this delays his launch Rmax)"

If you're launched on, then it takes precious time to accelerate to defend a shot. Keeping your smash allows you to kenematically defeat the missile with a 060 to 120 notch from the offending platform, with an endgame break into the missile. Keep your bandits close when you've pressed defensive. The earlier you can reacquire and engage the more cards you hold and increase your chances for victory without burning up excess fuel.

Reducing speed...meh. Not too much, but not too little. I'm certainly not going to maintain my F-Pole launch speed. 330-440 should be good. Just make sure you unload (0 G, little or no AoA) when you accelerate and you should be able to accelerate pretty quick. Again, if you're doing CAS and got jumped, I'd say maintain your energy (or maybe drop stores), but if you're on a sweep and have the initiative, accelerating shouldn't be an issue.

Until someone does 100 identical engagements and maintains 500 knots during a crank vs. 100 engagements with a reduction to some corner velocity, and reports their death rate for each set, I think it's a matter of feel. Or they can give me the vector calculus and physics for a representative engagement and prove to me that the missile has a higher Pk in one vs. the other situations. Make sure you give the paramaters dictating Pk (closure, aspect, whatever, I'm not an aeronautical engineer).

Everyone that's successful at defending/attacking superior BVR platforms, or even equivalent platforms has their own technique.

It comes down to the pros on and cons vs each technique. Fuel, and re-entry positions are the primary concerns (aside from saftey, which is paramount) in regards to different techniques.

Naturally for tests you have to have a controlled enviroment, that goes without saying. However, we're discussing the campaign where the threat analysis is ever changing. There are too many variables to work out one specific method for success.

F-Pole launch speed? Are you carrying sparrows?

I've seen alot of Adder posts among the Falcon Forums. There has been alot of great information put out. I created this video of an aggressive pursuit of an adder laden opponent a while ago. Take a look and see how I'd defeat your(ai) adder(r77) shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iygmxn1ldVU

Good luck and hope it helps.

Hag

Hag,
Thanks for that vid. It was posted here around patch 1.09 in a thread called "SAM in 1.09" (IIRC). It was the great OT post in history.

We needed a R-77 here so we could feature this Video. Good timing Ghostrider this thread was long over due. And anything you get form my post, spread it wherever you want, it might even make your garden grow.

I 2 r a racket scientist and I got some stuf 4 yall:

As for 6. I want the speed. If I have to drive downhill for a dodge, I want to level off above MADPAD at +600kts. Need +700 at endgame to go back to +20kft to deal with bandit #2. I practice on TE with 6 Mig-29S armed with R-77 and R-73 mode 2. 4 are on escort the other two 20nm behind on OCA. My task is to kill the 2 OCA ship. 6 A/C and I got 6 Missile.

Honestly, there's only a few way to miss with a slammer in a nose to nose BVR fight.
1. fire before the carrot gets between Rmax1 and Rmax2.
2. break lock before pittbull or HOJ. In AF, it will go maddog and miss.
3. STT lock before the carrot is above the middle of Rmax1 and Rmax2. The bandit will beam your missile and his missile might go maddog and miss you. I do this when I don't have slammer to return.

And if your on CAS and loaded with iron or you don't have 400kts in your pocket when you see the 29 on RWR, try [c]: lock the bandit, put your dash board on the TD Box, break lock and spread a few maddogs. Turn and run for cover. A slammer that was fired as a maddog has better PK than a slammer that had A/C lock and turn maddog. It's an AF thang.

And don't be confused; turning off Jammer to prevent HOJ is not an end game solution. It may be better to turn it off when the Mig can burn thru your music.

Not sure what you mean, but correct me if I'm wrong:

F-Pole - The distance from the launching aircraft to the target at missile impact.

Getting a lot of speed prior to launching maximizes this, assuming you fly the rest of the maneuvers (crank, drag) well? You thought I meant A-Pole? I'm mainly flying to maximize my distance when he's dead, and A-Pole ends up being maximized in the process.

I think I'm going to have to start writing down all of the sources from whence information is gleaned. I have learned a lot from you guys, and just want to 'spread the word' for lurkers, and keep the Forum traffic going. Might even add a credits section to the bottom of all posts