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#2146252 - 02/25/07 02:31 PM Russian RWR Signal Strength Range  
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bohica Offline
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Hi guys, I'm from the UK and fly the Su33/27 and am training with an online squad. I've been a big fan of LOMAC for while now and just updated to FC before Christmas. I've found this forum a big help.

For some time I've been searching for info on how to estimate range using the SPO-15s Signal strength circle. A fellow virtual squad member said that that Ironhand had done some stuff but I only saw his tutorials. So after hours surfing and only finding broken links I did a test myself. I set the Su33/27 on a straight an level course on Auto Pilot and allowed all fighters with search radars to intercept. I paused the sim and measured the distances for each one as the signal strength lamps lit anti clockwise round the scale. The table below shows my results. The +7 to +1 is left of the nose symbol indicating the threat is closing. The -7 is the maximum range of the enemy search radar and is furtherest away.



Hope you guys find this useful. If you have a few hours spare check my results.

Last edited by bohica; 02/25/07 02:35 PM.
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#2146261 - 02/25/07 02:50 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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Groove Offline
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awesome, thx !

#2146328 - 02/25/07 05:21 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: Groove]  
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Keep in mind that, since this isn't teribly realistic, it will eventually get fixed.


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#2146350 - 02/25/07 05:58 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: GrayGhost]  
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bohica Offline
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Keep in mind that, since this isn't teribly realistic, it will eventually get fixed.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. The data used by Lomac is reasonable, since Westinghouse etc don't really publish their radar specifics its hard for the Sim developers to model this. This is a sim and my intention was to inform those who enjoy it for what it is. Whether black shark addon will change these, I don't know.

I thought it might be useful for those of us that enjoy flying the more demanding Russian A/C.

The F15 TEWS (RWR) has a very different system which used in conjunction with the radar can give very detailed info regarding threats. I personally like the challenge of flying the Su27/33 but I know it's not everyones cup of tea.

Last edited by bohica; 02/25/07 05:59 PM.
#2146361 - 02/25/07 06:22 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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What I mean by it is that range estimation via RWR is realistically quite unreliable.


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#2146401 - 02/25/07 08:13 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Nice job bohica. That'll go into my useful info folder on my PC for sure. Nice that you included the L - Lock distance. Still can't decide whether I find your +7...0...-7 way of thinking about the SPO-15 easier than 15...1, I think I probably do.

You don't actually say it, but I assume those range are Km (and not Nm) right?

Incidentally does anyone know why it's called the SPO-15? Were there 14 previous versions of it, or is it named 15 because it has 15 levels of signal strength?


Sorry Death, you lose! It was Professor Plum...
#2146424 - 02/25/07 09:12 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: BritRadarDude]  
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BeachAV8R Offline
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Yes..good tool...it is always nice to see research done on how the sim works (I've seen some of BritRadarDude's stuff too..impressive!).. I'm sure mission designers and pilots alike benefit from this type of info...

Regards..
BeachAV8R



#2146534 - 02/26/07 12:58 AM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: BritRadarDude]  
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bohica Offline
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Originally Posted By: BritRadarDude


You don't actually say it, but I assume those range are Km (and not Nm) right?


Sorry I forgot to mention that the distances are in Kms. Also the Lock is based on the A/C radar not on missile range. In practice missile lock may vary depending on situation. So don't bank on the lock figures too much. I added them as an observation.

Thanks guys for your encouragement. I plan to do a similar test on ground based radars.

#2146561 - 02/26/07 01:45 AM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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EricJ Offline
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Cool man, much appreciated. Was the hostile fighter at the same altitude as well?

Last edited by EricJ; 02/26/07 01:48 AM.

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#2146571 - 02/26/07 02:01 AM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: EricJ]  
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bohica Offline
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Originally Posted By: EricJ
Cool man, much appreciated. Was the hostile fighter at the same altitude as well?


Yes the hostile A/C was at the same altitude. However I did a random test 1500 meters above and below and the result was the same. Also I did a test to see if the aspect angle made a difference. I placed a hostile 45 deg to the left and did the test. The results were the same. Also I did another where the hostile approaches at high speed from behind (rear aspect). Interestingly the results showed a slight drop in the maximum range of the search radar! But it was about 1-2 kms which is nothing much.

#2146781 - 02/26/07 01:16 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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Originally Posted By: bohica
Interestingly the results showed a slight drop in the maximum range of the search radar! But it was about 1-2 kms which is nothing much...

That's a result of keeping the radar set to interleaved PRFs (default). In that mode, it uses a mix of high and medium PRFs. So you don't detect an approaching or fleeing aircraft as quickly as you would using a "pure" Hi or Medium setting (Hi for approaching, Medium for fleeing). RWin-I is the toggle (available only in V1.1 and later).

#2146847 - 02/26/07 02:34 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: RSoro01]  
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Entil'zha
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The most interesting rule of thumb I see here is that if the range ring lights up to the 12 o'clock position, in most cases you either can be or will soon be able to be locked on to. The absolute range differs, but it does seem to the be threshold.



The Jedi Master


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#2146970 - 02/26/07 05:30 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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FlashHeart Offline
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Originally Posted By: bohica


I thought it might be useful for those of us that enjoy flying the more demanding Russian A/C.



Su27/33 demanding????

Try the Frog, m8!

I know - just kidding - you have already ;\)


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#2147013 - 02/26/07 06:37 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
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Yeah really. The SU-25T makes all the other planes in Lock On seem almost like arcade models.


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#2147168 - 02/26/07 09:22 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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bohica,

Thanks. It is a really handy chart.


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#2147363 - 02/27/07 03:08 AM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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EricJ Offline
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Originally Posted By: bohica
Originally Posted By: EricJ
Cool man, much appreciated. Was the hostile fighter at the same altitude as well?


Yes the hostile A/C was at the same altitude. However I did a random test 1500 meters above and below and the result was the same. Also I did a test to see if the aspect angle made a difference. I placed a hostile 45 deg to the left and did the test. The results were the same. Also I did another where the hostile approaches at high speed from behind (rear aspect). Interestingly the results showed a slight drop in the maximum range of the search radar! But it was about 1-2 kms which is nothing much.


True it doesn't mean much, but still maybe a few more seconds for you to get out of there, but that's dependant on other factors, so while it's not much, it can make somewhat of a difference somehow. Like a 3km minimum range for a Buk. Sure the hard part is just making it, but do the weapon delivery right and you're free to fly around.

Though I'd expect the ground radars to be a little different given various altitudes, as there's more factors, such as if they actually model the terrain right, then you will obviously get a different result from a 50m ingress to a 4000m ingress, where at that level you'll get max detection range, while you can get obviously closer at 50m. I may take a flight just to mess around myself though.

But FlashHeart is right, the -25T is a pain to fly while the other ones... yeah too easy, even the AFM A-10 is easy to fly.


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- "...parade ground soldiers always felt that way (contempt) about killers in uniform." -Counting The Cost, Hammer's Slammers
#2147381 - 02/27/07 03:34 AM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: EricJ]  
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Someone posted this a while back

[img][/img]

Last edited by Cali; 02/27/07 03:35 AM.

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#2147390 - 02/27/07 03:46 AM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: Cali]  
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EricJ Offline
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Nice.

98 kilometers at ~50m for the 1L13 against an Su-33 flying head on so far, so that should add a little bit to the scale.


|My Books | Home Page | http://562.combatace.com/ |
- 'Nearly everyone felt the need to express their views on all wars to me, starting with mine. I found myself thinking, I ate the crap sandwich, you didnt, so please dont tell me how it tastes.' - CPT Cole, US Army
- "...parade ground soldiers always felt that way (contempt) about killers in uniform." -Counting The Cost, Hammer's Slammers
#2147560 - 02/27/07 12:47 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: EricJ]  
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bohica Offline
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Quote:

Yes the hostile A/C was at the same altitude. However I did a random test 1500 meters above and below and the result was the same. Also I did a test to see if the aspect angle made a difference. I placed a hostile 45 deg to the left and did the test. The results were the same. Also I did another where the hostile approaches at high speed from behind (rear aspect). Interestingly the results showed a slight drop in the maximum range of the search radar! But it was about 1-2 kms which is nothing much.

True it doesn't mean much, but still maybe a few more seconds for you to get out of there, but that's dependant on other factors, so while it's not much, it can make somewhat of a difference somehow. Like a 3km minimum range for a Buk. Sure the hard part is just making it, but do the weapon delivery right and you're free to fly around.

Though I'd expect the ground radars to be a little different given various altitudes, as there's more factors, such as if they actually model the terrain right, then you will obviously get a different result from a 50m ingress to a 4000m ingress, where at that level you'll get max detection range, while you can get obviously closer at 50m. I may take a flight just to mess around myself though.

But FlashHeart is right, the -25T is a pain to fly while the other ones... yeah too easy, even the AFM A-10 is easy to fly.


The original test was based on Air-to-Air threats (ie Aircraft). I'm working on ground based threats (SAMs/AAA/Radars) and I will be testing at different Altitudes to see what the effect is. The SPO-15 can only receive threat information at +/- 30 degrees vertical axis (altitude). Given that the sensors are fore and aft there will be a blind spot as the A/C flies close to the radar threat depending on altitude. I started last night and already I've noticed some interesting stuff. This test may take a while longer so watch this space...

Last edited by bohica; 02/27/07 02:48 PM.
#2147620 - 02/27/07 01:57 PM Re: Russian RWR Signal Strength Range [Re: bohica]  
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Entil'zha
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There is no AFM A-10. Only the Su-25 and 25T have AFMs.



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