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The bouncing bomb

Posted By: MrJelly

The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 08:44 AM

To support Ray's current upgrade I just revisited this and tried the 617 bouncing bomb against a ship convoy at Ostend.
I sank a transport smile


You can just see another 'plane's upkeep bomb near the bottom right of the picture. It has bounced and is in the air.


Watersplashes from other bombs



wink
Posted By: trindade

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 10:30 AM

That's pretty cool Jel, maybe we could do a dambuster's style mission one of these days! wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 10:43 AM

There are dams in the ETO2015 package. Just make sure to bring your flak jacket.

Didn't the Germans try a round anti-shipping bouncing bomb?

And of course in the Pacific, low level B-25's skipped regular old 500 lb bombs into the sides of Japanese freighters.

Jel, could you make two more weapons slots? For one you could use the 500lb TMOD and I wouldn't have much trouble making a round ball for the other.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 01:37 PM

The difficulty with the dams mod is that the dams are placed on river tiles, which have no lake. As the rivers are windy and relatively narrow it is difficult to get a clear stretch of water to allow the bounces.
That is why I did the test to make sure things were working on the sea smile
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 02:53 PM

OK, thanks.

Just an FYI. I got all the latest files and everything is working as it should.

I did change a few inaccuracies I found in a couple of weapons slots and I changed the text in the .str file so there's visual uniformity when the user goes to the arming page. Before we had a mix of descriptions, some with capital letters, some with small letters and a lot of abbreviations were different. This was due to melding the SPAW weapons set with the default set. All I did was clean things up.

So, how about it? Could you add two more bouncing bomb slots?
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 03:33 PM

I added five extra slots already in what I sent you in the "extended" files.


You need to edit SPARE 1 and SPARE 2.
If you already have something similar you can copy its line, paste it, then edit the cells.


I checked the exe and we have a limit of 100, so I do not need to modify the "eaw.exe".

wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 05:02 PM

Yes I saw the extra slots at the bottom of the list.

Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't there a "617" flag that instructs the exec on the bouncing bomb function?
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 05:12 PM

Yes. I may have to change the exe because the flag is using image 617, ie "ORD617.3dz". I was only expecting one, but it is no problem to modify the exe to accommodate more.

I will experiment on new exe with the current bomb but a different flag.
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 06:35 PM

Ok, thanks.

if I may suggest - for continuity use 618 and 619.
Posted By: Moggy

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/18/17 10:45 PM

The smaller version of the bouncing bomb was called "hiball", and was intended to be used by the Mosquito against ships.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/19/17 05:55 PM

Ray
I have rewritten quite a lot of my torpedo code

Code:
	
		if (pBomb->pType->TypeNum == 30)    //Jel: Torpedo
			{
				pBomb->Torpedo = 1;
			}

			else if (pBomb->pType->TypeNum == 31)    //Jel: Torpedo
			{
				pBomb->Torpedo = 1;
			}
			else if (pBomb->pType->TypeNum == 63)    //Jel: SPAW torpedo
			{
				pBomb->Torpedo = 1;
			}
			else if (pBomb->pType->TypeNum == 64)    //Jel: SPAW torpedo
			{
				pBomb->Torpedo = 1;
			}
			else if ((pBomb->pType->TypeNum >= 80) && (pBomb->pType->TypeNum < 86))   //Jel: Added for bouncing bomb
			{
				pBomb->Torpedo = 1;
			}


Torpedoes and bouncing bombs are recognised from their "TypeNum" and we already have 30 and 31 in the default weapons, 63 and 64 in the SPAW section, and 80 as the original bouncing bomb.
The last line of that code sets 80, and the five extra lines (81 to 85) as torpedoes, so currently there are three spare slots if you only use 81 and 82.

The UAW150 bouncing bomb is effectively a bouncing torpedo, but the bounce routine only applies if the "TypeNum" is 80 - 85.

wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/19/17 06:59 PM

Ok, this I understand -

"Torpedoes and bouncing bombs are recognised from their "TypeNum" and we already have 30 and 31 in the default weapons, 63 and 64 in the SPAW section, and 80 as the original bouncing bomb."

This I don't -

"The last line of that code sets 80, and the five extra lines (81 to 85) as torpedoes, so currently there are three spare slots if you only use 81 and 82."

Sounds like you saying that the latest weapons.dat file you sent me is already set up for bouncing bombs in those five new slots. Correct?

And a related question.

If I put a 500lb bomb in a slot that is coded to bounce on a water tile will it still act like a regular bomb on a land tile?
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/19/17 07:10 PM

A1: Yes, but you need to put the correct data in lines 81 and 82 smile
A2: No. Torpedoes explode if they hit land.

wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 01:23 AM

I copied the torpedo data from the US torpedo to the last slot #86. I didn't use slots 82 and 83 because I've already got some other weapons in those slots.

I then loaded up the slot 86 torpedo plus the "torpedo release" and it functioned properly.

Then I changed the graphic from ORD76 to ORD01 (500 lb bomb) and it still worked fine with the 500lb bomb running along the surface like a torpedo.

The only thing left it to change the function so that it looks more like the dambuster bomb rather than tracking like a torpedo.





Also, we talked about it before but I'll bring it up again. EAW torpedoes run at about 110 MPH which is more than twice as fast as the real ones.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 07:51 AM

Once you have a set of files for this send them to me so I can test them with the new exe.
Yesterday I had torpedoes working fine from the Avenger and the Kate using loadout files without the release mechanism.
In a Zero escorted Kates to attack the Enterprise and the AIs released torpedoes at low altitude using the torpedo code I had modified.





I will see if I can find the code relating to the torpedo speed. I think it is using the horizontal velocity component of the aircraft at the time of release
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 10:45 AM

I just did two runs with a torpedo.

Fist run I dropped at 95MPH and the second run at 430MPH. Indeed the torpedo matches the speed of the aircraft at the moment of launch.

Don't know if this helps but I think the locomotive runs at about 45 MPH. If you could adapt that to the torpedo we'd be OK.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 03:24 PM

You would think that it would be easy to find the torpedo's water-speed in the code but after four hours today I have found nothing that I can work with frown
Posted By: MarkEAW

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 05:36 PM

I'm not a programmer, but It's all probably just built into the physics engine.

Can you put a drag value on the bomb, or a damaged value that would produce significant drag?
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 06:19 PM

Mark I did indeed try that but the drag value only affects the weapon while it's attached to the aircraft. I set it to the max allowable number and it slowed the plane down quite a bit but once in the water some other value takes over.

There's also a forward velocity value which can be use to speed up or slow down the weapon in flight. Mostly used for rockets of course but it does come into play for bombs. Unfortunately it's set to zero for the torpedoes and the editor doesn't allow negative values.

But that does bring up a question for Jel.

We routinely encounter negative values in the flight editor without any problem so I'm wondering if the problem could be solved by allowing the weapons.dat editor to accept negative values or is it something inherent in EAW.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 06:40 PM

It depends on the variable used. Several have signed and unsigned ones.
If you recall the MaxTMods problem that you hit was caused because the original programmers had used using a signed value for a number that could never be negative. The signed range was from -32767 to 32767, half of which were useless as a counting number. When I switched the to to unsigned the range was from 0 to 65535, and you were back in business.

I will look at the velocity and see what type it is. If it can be negative as far as the exe goes then I will try to modify the editor smile


It is a UBYTE which is unsigned (0 to 255).
There is a "signed_char" from -128 to 128.

The problem is that some rockets use a value bigger than 128 such as 194

wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/20/17 06:55 PM

Yes, I do recall that problem. Took a lot of work to figure it out too.

But that's what we do.

You come up with a new idea and I try to break it.

Then you fix it and I break something else.

It's called destructive creationism.

Not much fun for you but I have a blast. biggrin
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 08:51 AM



You can see what I did for the 250 lb round bomb in line 82.
What do I do with lines 83 and 86 in which you have data?

Line 83 looks like 82 so I can set the image to 618.
86 is very different. Do we have a proper name for "SPARE 5"?

Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 10:13 AM

Line 82 and line 83 are the Allied 250lb and Axis 100kg bombs set up to drop with the drop tank key. Anything labeled "L-!" is ordinance that is set up like this. Back in the development of SPAW we were slot limited and these two particular ordinances were sidelined. Once the dat file was increased I was able to put them in.

You can edit line 83 to "619" and leave all the other data the same. We'll then have 250 and 100 KG bombs that skip.

I can put a regular 250lb L-1 bomb in slot 84 and the 100kg L-1 bomb in slot 85.

Line 86 is just the US torpedo in another slot. I was trying to set up the P-61 to carry two torpedoes with separate drops but it does not work so it can be deleted.

Then you could label the round bouncing bomb as "620", put in slot 86 and that would give me all the weapons I need.

Don't forget though, I need the skipping bombs to run like the dambuster bomb rather than the torpedo.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 10:41 AM

I have modified the editor and your files



I got sick of the CD loader defaulting to the wrong directory, so I have a loading panel where you select the "txt" and the "dat" files and then click "Load". The CD loader is not used.

What was in the previous "SPARE 5" was not meant to bounce, so I have added extra slots, renamed some, and moved it to 87.
The ones marked as "BB" are available for bouncing bombs.
It is the slot number not the image that determines if the bounce code will kick in, so both the the 250 lb and 100 kg BB can both use image 618 smile
I need to edit line 83 with the correct image.
This was done before your last post smile
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 11:37 AM

Will you upload the new editor?

Did you fix the new bombs so they run like UPKEEP rather than the torpedo?
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 12:25 PM

I have just had to modify the 150 exe. There is a routine that diminishes the bounce height, but the original height value was not re-set. The upshot was that the bomb from the first plane bounced, but the bombs from the other planes did not because the height had been reduced to zero. It is now fixed in the old map version and I need to fix it in the new map version.
T will package the stuff and put it on the server in your folder. Give me an hour or so smile
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 12:33 PM

Ok
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 12:55 PM

"ForRay22Jan.exe" (7-zip) is in your folder.
It has the new editor, my files, and an "EAW Versions" folder with the two new exes smile
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 12:58 PM

I left out the renamed 3dz
Your "RoundBomb.3DZ" needs to be renamed "ORD618.3DZ" smile

I noticed this which is a bit odd:
Your original BBs were type 4 (droptank) and if I go to the loadout screen I have no weapon by default, and have to select the bombs.
The same if I make them type 5 (bomb + droptank).

If I make them type 1 (bomb) then I get bombs by default and do not need to select them smile
Posted By: PeterMBooth

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 01:55 PM

Hi,

Interesting. The Germans recovered an "Upkeep" mine from the wreckage of Barlow's Lanc after the dams raid - the self destruct does not seem to have worked. They produced an 850lb version of their own (Upkeep weighed 9250lb with 6600lb explosive and Highball 950/500) which could be carried by an Fw190 but could not make it work as they do not seem to have understood the need for backspin so it tended to bounce back at the launching aircraft - I have seen a film clip of a USAAF test with Highball on an Invader where the bomb or the water splash hit its tail and it crashed. Attempts to solve this using a rocket booster failed, but if they had fixed the problems it could have been dangerous for Allied shipping - imagine a dozen or so Fw at low level raiding a naval formation off the Normandy Coast on D-Day or Ju188 hitting a naval anchorage such as Scapa Flow! The Ju88/188 could carry one under each wing I imagine and could bomb at night using ASV radar and/or flares if you want a challenging scenario Ray. During tests a dummy Highball knocked a sizeable hole in the old battleship Malaya, and if it had rolled down under the keel and exploded it would have been probably fatal. Of course a squadron (618?) of Mossies took Highball to Australia to use against the Japanese but were never activated. They would no doubt have taken heavy losses but could have caused significant damage if used sensibly.

Nice work guys.

Pete
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/22/17 09:28 PM

Tony,

The round skip bomb works but I couldn't get the regular 250 lb bomb to work. I sent you the pertinent files in an e-mail.

Can you significantly shorten the distance the bounding bombs go before they disappear? Right now they run as far as the torpedo which doesn't look correct?

I would say that the round bouncing bomb should go about 1/4 the distance of the torpedo and the skip bombs no more than 100 yards.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/24/17 08:19 AM

I have just compiled V21.
It uses a "Bounce.mpf" file with the maximum bounce height and the run in feet.
Currently I just tried this

20
1000

Height and run in feet


If there is no "Bounce.mpf" file then hard coded default values of 45 and 3000 are used.

This gives us the chance to experiment and find the best settings.
In my "weapons.dat" I have made the type 4 BBs type 1. Otherwise the AIs do not release them because they are drop tanks.

wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/24/17 10:50 AM

Ok, that's a good approach.

But won't we need three different mpf files for the dambuster, skip bomb and bouncing bomb?

Also, I've gotten a bit mixed up.

Which are the slot numbers that are hard coded for the torpedoes, dambuster and bouncing bombs?
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/24/17 02:56 PM

The torpedoes are in 30, 31, 63, and 64.
The original Upkeep is in 80
The new BB slots are 82-86

If we do not need any more BBs there could be a universal mpf with the two values for slot 80, 82, 83, 84, 85 and 86 all listed in the one file. It would not be hard to modify the exe to read it and select the appropriate pair for the current bomb.
The key thing to do is to test the bombs with the current mpf and see which settings are best for each one.

I will send you four new exes. Early this afternoon I found a way of slowing down the torpedoes slightly, so you might try those too.

In your folder at the Gen "Versions21and22.exe" a 7-zip as usual wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/24/17 03:31 PM

Four execs in that download.

Which is which?

And do I make my own MPF file or will you make one that I can then edit?
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/24/17 03:34 PM

There are default values in the exe, but you can make one like mine and play with the numbers.

20
1000

The 22XXX ones are my experimental torpedo speed first shots wink
These may need a "Fuse Timer" increase otherwise the slightly slower torpedoes may die before reaching the target wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/24/17 09:03 PM

Upon testing I found an oddity.

Loaded up a flight of P-61's with skip bombs. Doesn't matter which ones, they all do it as well as the bouncing bomb.

In the lead plane the bombs skip but in all the following planes the bombs don't skip.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/25/17 08:40 AM

I am working on it. In simple terms Ralf had set the torpedo run code for AI aircraft like this:

If ( condition1 and condition2 and condition3 and condition4)

Do this


So if all four conditions are met the routine runs.

However, he followed it with:

else

Do that


So if any of the four conditions are not met the "else" routine runs

There is a myriad of "else" routines in his code, and one of them generates the torpedo run.

This morning I have got the torpedo run working well with skip bombs from both a Lancaster and a Kate, particularly in an escort mission with AI Lancasters or Kates.

What I cannot get working at the moment is in Ship Strikes. If I drop to a low altitude to attack my AIs do not follow me, and release their weapons from their relatively high altitude.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/25/17 03:08 PM

It is working for me smile


I have an experimental SPAW planeset with the Avenger, the Kate and the Black Widow having a single loadout files with one or more skipbombs. They all work with these 'planes in Ship Strike missions, or when escorted by other planes.

I tried the four in the P61 and they all worked, except as you reported the first release drops one, then the second drops the other three.

wink
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/25/17 03:45 PM

Ok, looking good.

I've pretty much done away with the uneven drops by reverting to the multiple drop method I used for SPAW rather than Ralf's method.

It means I must go back and edit the loadouts on all the planes but it shouldn't take but a day or so.

Also, I have another subject to discuss but it's better to start that with PM's.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/27/17 03:22 PM

And then there are paratroop dropping missions smile

Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 01:45 PM

After setting up the bounce.mpf values I have some observations.

I think both the skip bombs and the bouncing bomb need a longer space between bounces. With the bounce height set to the default value the bombs jump way too high and too rapidly, especially towards the end of their run.

With the height value brought down they look better but then the space between splashes gets so close together that it starts to look like the torpedo wake.

About half as many bounces seems about right but more testing will need to be done.

Also, I think there should be different values for the skip bomb and the bouncing bomb, either a separate .mpf file or two more lines in the one file. They are quite different in size and it seems to me the bouncing bomb needs to have much longer spaces between bounces than the skip bomb.



All of the values we talked about off forum seem to be OK except for the cargo drop.

With the armament value set to zero I'm not sure what this is for.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 03:35 PM

I have improved the routine which only ran up from the water to the apex by adding the down part from the apex back to the water. This effectively doubles the bounce. Of course it is all controlled by gravity, and affected by framerate, so it is impossible to make the bounces longer. The bomb cannot travel horizontally faster than the aircraft smile
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 04:16 PM

Ok, if that works we'll be good to go.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 04:56 PM

Nope. It created other problems so I am trying something different before I decide to stick with what we have frown
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 05:44 PM

Another option would be to make the actual graphic disappear when it hits the water and just show the spray.

Admittedly that would work better for the skip bombs than the bouncing bomb because it's so much bigger.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 06:00 PM

I have it working with a sine function, just trying different height values smile
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 06:05 PM

Another oddity.

I noticed that randomly the bombs don't skip.

To test it I loaded up the P-61 with 6 500lb skip bombs on loadout 1. They all drop together as intended but when they hit the water some don't skip.

Can you confirm?
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 07:18 PM

I will have a look but it may be that the bounce routine only handles one bomb at a time. I will try with two smile
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 07:56 PM

I've seen as many as three out of the six skip.

Other times with only one dropping I see the same problem.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 09:05 PM

New exes emailed smile
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/28/17 09:27 PM

An AI Black Widow just released a pair of skip bombs. This was an escoer mission and the bombers behaved well smile
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 08:59 AM

The BB in the latest exe is not working well on Ray's PC.
However, it works better than any previous versions on my PC.
This is of course a problem.

I made a Bandicam video of a short test with a P61 dropping two separate skip-bombs so that Ray could see what I see:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/q9399025cy3iya4/BB.mp4
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 09:22 AM

Yes, I can see that but I'm experiencing what I can only describe as a stutter similar to a frame rate slow down like some players get with a sky full of planes. Which I've never had so something else in going on.

The stutter starts when the bomb hits the water and it doesn't go away when the bomb has run it's course. I have to end the mission to stop it.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 09:33 AM

There is a BBMission.mp4 in the same folder smile

....and a BBMissionV2.mp4
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 12:24 PM

Getting better.

The stutter is gone.

I still get random zero to three successful launches when making a multiple drop of six bombs.

Also on one drop of a single bomb, not a multiple drop, I got a torpedo wake instead of the skip bomb wake. That was rather odd.

Question. Is the bounce.mpf still valid or have you hard coded this latest attempt?
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 06:10 PM

Back after extensive testing.

1 - When I drop multiple skip bombs at the same time rarely do all of them skip. I have had as many as four skipping at the same time but usually one or two of them don't function. Sometimes a drop with a single bomb will malfunction too but not as often.

2 - Skip bombs assigned to the drop tank label (L-1) are more prone to not skipping and if they do function they always act like torpedoes.

3 - Skip bombs assigned to L-1 never skip in the lead plane but they do work in the rest of the flight, although still with a number of malfunctions.

3 - I tried some different bounce.mpf settings. For skip bombs the settings are best at 5 / 700. The distance seems about right and the low height makes them look like they're skimming the surface. OTOH, the round bouncing bomb looks best with the settings at 30/2000 which might work Ok for the dambuster bomb too but I didn't try that one.
As I wrote earlier I think we need two different sets of values because the characteristics of the skip bombs and the bouncing bombs are very different.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 07:03 PM

We will get this fixed at some stage.
The problem I am trying to solve is the Lancaster.
I have a SPAW planeset, with the Avenger, Kate, and P61 with skipbombs.
For convenience it has a Lancaster with them too.

In an escort mission the single engined AI planes drop to the programmed level, and release. So does the P61.

The AI Lancs bomb from an altitude of 2500 feet. They drop early in the flight but at about 45000 feet from the target they climb again. I cannot see which routine is causing this, but it may be something in the FM that is causing the problem.

smile
Posted By: Rotton50

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 07:30 PM

Other than this last bomb mod I have a complete planeset.

I will upload it so we're both working from the same file sets.
Posted By: MrJelly

Re: The bouncing bomb - 01/29/17 08:16 PM

I just escorted Lancs which had the P61 "plane.dat" and "plne.flt" files, and they behaved perfectly.
I will modify the files to see what might be the cause.
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