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Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat?

Posted By: Bandit4

Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/11/18 07:07 PM

https://m.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/comeback-for-the-f14-tomcat.html
Posted By: - Ice

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/11/18 07:16 PM

Was that supposed to be taken seriously?
Posted By: Raw Kryptonite

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/11/18 07:41 PM

That whole article says basically nothing. LOL
The last excerpt negates it all, stating the obvious.

“Although appreciation still exists for the classic F-14 and its commendable service history, the Navy will likely continue upgrades to the Super Hornet to make it more combat effective and rely on the newer aircraft to meet its future needs.”

It would be interesting if they could be updated, but what a waste of money with waiting for the F35’s after all these years.
Posted By: - Ice

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/11/18 08:29 PM

Exactly. If the Tomcat was retired due to maintenance costs and being behind the times, why on Earth would it make a comeback when there's a newer airframe that costs less to maintain and has newer equipment? I just hated myself a bit more for making that statement but such is the truth!
Posted By: Blade_RJ

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/11/18 10:01 PM

wasnt the tomcat a fuel burner as well becouse of its engine ?
Posted By: Crane Hunter

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/11/18 10:19 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Coot

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 01:20 AM

"the future is in the past"

True on many levels. It would be awesome to see it come back even if for only a little while. Maybe get that F-14D upgrade the article mentioned. I know it must be a complicated decision and task but it gives me a good feeling at the thought of having an old warbird come back to service.

tomcat
Posted By: KRT_Bong

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 02:13 AM

But really what we should ask ourselves is are there any Tomcat Air frames left in storage to even consider resurrecting? Truth be told the article is suspicious ahead of a possible Top Gun II reference? If the Navy was open to a Grumman refit of old F-14 Airframes they would first have an operational airframe yes?
Posted By: Dart

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 02:26 AM

Hey, what's that Japanese anime where they fly Gen 2 and 3 aircraft against Gen 4 aircraft that are controlled by aliens?

Apparently that's all they could get to work, so it was F-14's and stuff against F-35's.
Posted By: bones

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 03:28 PM

Sadly the F-14 airframes that were left that weren't used for museums were mothballed at AMARC in AZ....and since then they have been shredded. I haven't been to AMARC in a long time but looking at recent pix on Google Earth and such, it does look like what I heard is true--they are gone. Not including the IRIAF Tomcats, but that's kind of a moot point.

Now that's not to say someone doesn't have a blueprint to be able to produce more of them, but it would be pretty costly starting from scratch. I hear over and over about how the maintenance cost of the Tomcat and parts were astronomical, but from what I also heard, alot of this is due to the loss of tooling used to make those parts that were disposed of when Cheney killed the program. So naturally, it was harder to make spares without extra costs.

That aside, the F-14 was not really as behind the times as one thought. The F-14 turned out to be more ahead of its time than when it was first conceived. Tomcats has precision strike capability that was greatly enhanced by the LANTIRN system to the point that during OIF generals were tasking F-14s for more precision strikes than they were their own F-15Es. When ROVER first came out, it was quickly adapted to the F-14 and it was added at such a low cost and turnaround time it was astounding. When it went into operation a mere few weeks later, the precision strike capability got even better.

Then of course you have its air to air weapons, particularly Phoenix. The Phoenix never really got to see its fair share of combat use in the US Navy, but that coupled with not just the AWG-9 but the Delta's APG-71 radar is still hard to beat. The article made no mention of theTomcat's radar, particularly the AGP-71...and the radar really was the Tomcat's biggest "gun." No other airborne radar in a combat aircraft has been as powerful or effective as that.

So I of course would love to see the Tomcat make a comeback, and it's nice to know that people in the Navy think so too...but they are sadly sadly just thoughts. The economics of it all and the current political atmosphere will most likely not allow for it.

But it's the thought that counts!

v6,
boNes
Posted By: Bill_Grant

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 07:46 PM

My understanding is that the main reason for the mothballing was that the maintenance was horiffic on them. Something like 4-10 hours in the shop for every hour flown. That is not sustainable.
Posted By: - Ice

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 07:58 PM

Where'd you get that info, bones? Would love to have a read!


One thing that confuses me though --- why can't we have a Tomcat shell but with upgraded innards? Kind of like how people restore old muscle cars, but with newer engines, more modern shock absorbers, etc. So keep the Tomcat shape but improve the avionics. Surely with advancement in tech, stuff has gotten smaller and so a more advanced radar would still fit inside the Tomcat?
Posted By: bones

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by - Ice
Where'd you get that info, bones? Would love to have a read!


One thing that confuses me though --- why can't we have a Tomcat shell but with upgraded innards? Kind of like how people restore old muscle cars, but with newer engines, more modern shock absorbers, etc. So keep the Tomcat shape but improve the avionics. Surely with advancement in tech, stuff has gotten smaller and so a more advanced radar would still fit inside the Tomcat?


Stuff I've come across over studying the Tomcat since the 80s. Alot of it was also from people in the know at Grumman, USN, etc.

As for keeping the shell and changing the innards. Well, you still need a shell...and they have all been shredded. That's just for starters.

The titanium wing gearbox I'm sure is not an attractive expense having to make those all over again too...

v6,
boNes
Posted By: Coot

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 08:14 PM

Billions and billions and multiple decades are spent on other things( a lot of nonsense too) including "missing" billions on the Pentagon's watch so I always get a little perturbed when I hear officials talk of funding and not having money and this and that and so on and so forth and around and around it goes. It would be amazing to see a responsible and efficient effort put into a stream-lined program to bring back a proven air frame but with upgraded components and technologies now available to correct those things which were time and cost consuming on the original aircraft including bringing back the needed machining and tooling equipment to build them. As already mentioned it probably won't happen but imagine that vision coming to pass.
Posted By: - Ice

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 08:51 PM

Well, I could be wrong but one thing that made the Tomcat great was the shape, right? So we know that aerodynamically, that layout works. So why not rebuild it but update the insides?

Also, why shred the Tomcats? Are they running out of space?
Posted By: Crane Hunter

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by - Ice
Well, I could be wrong but one thing that made the Tomcat great was the shape, right? So we know that aerodynamically, that layout works. So why not rebuild it but update the insides?

Also, why shred the Tomcats? Are they running out of space?


That's pretty much what the Flanker family is about; they essentially took the F-14's basic layout, and refined it while deleting the variable geometry wings.
Posted By: Zamzow

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by - Ice


Also, why shred the Tomcats? Are they running out of space?


I read a long time ago that all things F-14 were destroyed to ensure zero possibility of anything F-14 ending up in Iranian hands. Iran would pay massive money to anyone who could get them parts.
Posted By: - Ice

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 09:54 PM

And that is why they also look so sexxxxy!! biggrin
Posted By: bones

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by - Ice


Also, why shred the Tomcats? Are they running out of space?


I read a long time ago that all things F-14 were destroyed to ensure zero possibility of anything F-14 ending up in Iranian hands. Iran would pay massive money to anyone who could get them parts.



Yes this is correct, and also because of the value of scarp giving a return on investment in some sad way. In one documentary about it they said, "So the next time you drink your favorite soda from a can, think: the material used in this can might have been flying at supersonic speed over the trouble hotspots of the world."

Talk about putting it in depressing perspective.

v6,
boNes
Posted By: Zamzow

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by bones
The article made no mention of theTomcat's radar, particularly the AGP-71...and the radar really was the Tomcat's biggest "gun." No other airborne radar in a combat aircraft has been as powerful or effective as that


What about the F-22?
Posted By: Major Dragon

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 10:12 PM

I rarely post but couldn’t resist adding my 2 cents.

The Tomcat lives on! I fly the A/B version in my Fleet Defender sim and the D version in my F18 sim thanks to TSH.

The best Tomcat read is “Black Aces High” by Robert Wilcox.

dragon
Posted By: DaBBQ

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/12/18 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by - Ice
Well, I could be wrong but one thing that made the Tomcat great was the shape, right? So we know that aerodynamically, that layout works. So why not rebuild it but update the insides?

Also, why shred the Tomcats? Are they running out of space?


We're launching drones that exceed Mach 5 so the Tomcat is sadly outdated for today's battlefield.
Posted By: bones

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/13/18 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by bones
The article made no mention of theTomcat's radar, particularly the AGP-71...and the radar really was the Tomcat's biggest "gun." No other airborne radar in a combat aircraft has been as powerful or effective as that


What about the F-22?


I don't know much about the F-22 radar, but does it have a range in excess of 100 mi and can track 24 targets at once, firing on 6 of them with a long range air-to-air missile?

If so, I stand corrected.

v6,
boNes
Posted By: Lieste

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/13/18 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by - Ice
Well, I could be wrong but one thing that made the Tomcat great was the shape, right? So we know that aerodynamically, that layout works. So why not rebuild it but update the insides?

Also, why shred the Tomcats? Are they running out of space?


They are 25% Titanium in the airframes. Much more valuable as scrap than Aluminium or carbon honeycombs. The wing box in particular is a very large machined Ti component.

As a combat platform it was useful, but the technology was severely outdated and the aircraft were maintenance nightmares, and the 'single piece' titanium wing box was a fatigue prone critical part without the crack-stopping advantages of a built up structure.
Posted By: Franze

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/13/18 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by bones
Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by bones
The article made no mention of theTomcat's radar, particularly the AGP-71...and the radar really was the Tomcat's biggest "gun." No other airborne radar in a combat aircraft has been as powerful or effective as that


What about the F-22?


I don't know much about the F-22 radar, but does it have a range in excess of 100 mi and can track 24 targets at once, firing on 6 of them with a long range air-to-air missile?

If so, I stand corrected.

v6,
boNes


Yes to all, though much of the APG-77's radar data is highly classified. It's a modern AESA radar and far in excess of the AGP-71's capability. A lot of the F-22's capability surrounds data collection and tracking of targets, and not just aerial ones. The radar was developed by Northrup Grumman so I'd imagine they incorporated a bunch of lessons learned from the APG-71 into it.

Further, the AIM-120 is a far more capable missile than the AIM-54, especially the D model.
Posted By: MigBuster

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 06/13/18 06:30 PM

Go with Franze.......should be night and day between the old APG-71 MSA radar and the APG-77 and even 79 in the SH - then also consider the APG-81 for the F-35 was developed from the 77.
- AESA radars can do things the old MSA ones simply cannot.

Wouldn't advise holding breath on any F-14 production restart personally.
Posted By: HogDriver

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 07/17/18 04:59 PM

As much as I love the F-14, it's not coming back.


I was on the Kitty Hawk in the late 1990's and I was told back then that the Tomcats were a massive pain in the ass to maintain.

It would be pointless to try restarting production too. We live in an age where the greatest threat to America resides within our own borders.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 07/17/18 05:24 PM

I think it's safe to say that the new Top Gun film will feature F-35's and drones. smile
Posted By: Coot

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 07/17/18 06:08 PM

I hope not Panzer. I'm hoping we get Hornets and plenty of carrier action. That would certainly assure that Top Gun 2 will have the same spirit and feel of the first. I did see a photo of Tom Cruise in his old flight suit and helmet with an F-18 in the background.
Posted By: PanzerMeyer

Re: Gone, But Not Forgotten – A Comeback for the F-14 Tomcat? - 07/17/18 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Coot
I hope not Panzer. I'm hoping we get Hornets and plenty of carrier action. That would certainly assure that Top Gun 2 will have the same spirit and feel of the first. I did see a photo of Tom Cruise in his old flight suit and helmet with an F-18 in the background.


I kid, I kid. It’s a sure thing that the F-18’s will be center stage. smile
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