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CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS PHOENIX

Posted By: Sokol1

CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS PHOENIX - 09/09/07 09:32 PM

To explain the reason of this "mod":

The options for purchase a COTS HOTAS in local market are:
THRUSTMASTER Topgun AfterBurner 2 ~ U$ 225,00 eek
THRUSTMASTER HOTAS COUGAR ~ U$ 670,00 eek eek
SAITEK X-52 "Vanila" ~ U$ 850,00 eek eek eek

So, I made a "new USB HOTAS" for a friend using old CH gameport gear.
Find in online "flea market", from different vendors, one CH F-16 Combatstick and one CH PRO Throttle, both gameport versions.
The Combatstick, in spite of arrive covered in dust, seemed that never it was used.
Both cost around U$ 50,00.
Then I bought one BU0836 USB Card - that arrived from "across the pound" in 9 days.

First disassemble the two controllers and remove the gameport PCB circuits, cables and connectors, and remove the trails of HAT's PCBs.

I dont bother in know how are wired in original,* find more easy adapt the wiring to BU0836 6x6 Matrix adding 1 diode 1N4148 in one each pin or every button and HAT cornet (BTW - Contrary to some simmers believed HAT in joysticks are only 4 buttons in same case, no Alien science is used in then). wink

Easy to do, all disassembled with some sketch on how wire the buttons in 6x6 matrix:

[Linked Image]

* EDIT - Latter I did the same conversion in one CH F-16 Fighterstick, and in this is used a 6x4 matrix, that resume the grip work in simple made a new connector for cable inside base without need of erase trails and fit diodes.

With some rehearsal find a perfect place to fit BU0836 in front of the box of Combatstick, fastened with one of the original screws, and a make a new hole in the case for BU0836 USB connector (B type).

[Linked Image]

To wire throttle into the joy I need made a dual cable - because I need 12 wires for this connection, 9 for throttle buttons Matrix and 3 for throttle axis, but original cables of CH gameport have only 10 internal wires - so the option was use a shield microphone cable to wire the throttle axis.

[Linked Image]

To connect this two cable in joystick case I use a 3 row DB-15 connector (for VGA monitor).
This model prevents connection attempt into a DB-15 gameport - that use 2 pins row - and is more compact than conventional DB-15 connector.

[Linked Image]

Inside throttle the cable wires for buttons are combined Matrix, too with one diode 1N4148 for one button pin.

[Linked Image]

The throttle potentiometer use the 3 wires microphone cable:

[Linked Image]

As CH uses a standard size/form in their HATS and buttons case, are easily interchange then.
So I swap - from owner request - the left thumb button (red) of Combatstick for the front HAT of the throttle, this HAT is difficult to reach and use for people with small hands. This exchange is easy to do, "drop in".

[Linked Image]

The diode 1N4148 in one pin of every button or HAT corner wired to BU0836 ROWS is for avoid "gosth buttons press" common in Matrix connections. Solder all this diodes is the "tedious" part of this work. smile

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

To wire potentiometers into BU0836 I use shield CDROM sound cables.
One cable cut in middle wire two pot's, and modding the original CDROM cable connector, removing their hooks, they plug very well in BU0836 pins (.25" space).

The HOTAS continue using the original CH 100k pots, that work fine in BU00836, without show spikes or glitch's.

Inside grip after wired:

[Linked Image]

Yes Mr. G, this "new" HOTAS is not more recognized by CH Manager. nope

However, some basic programming - like button for Teamspeak PTT, and even multiple profiles are gotten with freeware/shareware keymapers like SVMapper, XPadder, Joy2Key... thumbsup

The "new" HOTAS PHOENIX USB. biggrin

[Linked Image]
windows 7 screen shot


Final cost around ~ U$ 100,00.

Posted By: Brandano

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/09/07 11:33 PM

Great idea, though I am sure you can find a ready-made HOTAS setup for less than the prices you listed by buying them online. I have an Hotas Cougar, but I might try to modify an old Suncom F15 stick I have in my old controllers box.
Posted By: GADGET

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/10/07 07:37 AM

Muy bien Sokol1
Posted By: PaddyTB

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/10/07 01:19 PM

Very nice work there Sokol
Posted By: BUFF

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/11/07 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Sokol1
:
THRUSTMASTER HOTAS COUGAR ~ U$ 670,00
SAITEK X-52 "Vanila" ~ U$ 850,00

Must be the only place in the world where the Cougar is cheaper than an X52 ...

Good going on the mod \:\)
Posted By: 2Kewl

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/14/07 12:37 PM

Great job on the mod Sokol1!

Fantastic to see old CH gear being modernised like that.
Posted By: Beercamel

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/22/07 03:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: Sokol1
To explain this "mod":
The options for purchase a COTS HOTAS in local market are:
THRUSTMASTER Topgun AfterBurner 2 ~ U$ 225,00
THRUSTMASTER HOTAS COUGAR ~ U$ 670,00
SAITEK X-52 "Vanila" ~ U$ 850,00



Nice work on this HOTAS BTW...

But..

Have you looked into some US e-retailers?
You should be able to find one that ships to Brazil for a better price than what you get locally. Once you try a CH USB controller/HOTAS, programmable with Control Manager, I think you will not want to Sim without one...
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/22/07 05:06 PM

 Quote:
Have you looked into some US e-retailers?


Oh yes. ie. Provantage send to Brazil, but due to our expensives local fees (60% + 18% cumulatives, over the price plus postage... ), the 98,02 U$ of one CH F16 Fighterstick is turn to > 370 U$ ... No way.

Third part freeware softwares, like JoyToKey, SVMapper, Autohotkey, alow a good programmability to BU0836, whit macros and even multiple profiles on the fly.

Ah, modding sticks are fun. \:D

Sokol1
Posted By: Beercamel

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/22/07 09:04 PM

 Originally Posted By: Sokol1
 Quote:
Have you looked into some US e-retailers?


Oh yes. ie. Provantage send to Brazil, but due to our expensives local fees (60% + 18% cumulatives, over the price plus postage... ), the 98,02 U$ of one CH F16 Fighterstick is turn to > 370 U$ ... No way.

Third part freeware softwares, like JoyToKey, SVMapper, Autohotkey, alow a good programmability to BU0836, whit macros and even multiple profiles on the fly.

Ah, modding sticks are fun. \:D

Sokol1


Aren’t taxes simply wonderful!
Posted By: Brandano

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/25/07 09:16 AM

Heh, with that sort of import taxes, maybe you can work out an agreement with the BU0836 creator to produce HOTAS systems for south america. I bet that manufacturing shouldn't be much of an issue, and as long as the runs are small there might be enough market for it
Posted By: Tacman

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/27/07 04:07 AM

The BUO836 is nothing more than a Microchip PIC18F2550 pre-programmed and with a great layout, major props to the developer.
It is however a very easily programmable Micro-controller that can be purchased pretty cheap.
The nice thing about the BUO836 package is that its simple, plug it in and wire your devices.
However, for the more inclined enthusiasts this could be done pretty easily.

Just a side note.. \:\)
For a portion of one of the projects I am working on for school this coming year is a modern flight control system for a PC using such a device for easy interfacing. Mine however will be a PIC18F4550 (the 2550's big brother at 40 pins) It wont be a clone of any sort of the BUO836 but more of an easier interface for connecting multiple inputs. It will have quite alot more I/O and support for specific devices.

Mostly this is being developed to support Rudder pedals with toe brakes (also being designed) and any yoke / stick / throttle combination imaginable. The system is being designed to emulate a Cessna 172 Cockpit for easy demonstration with FSX or X-plane, but it will be capable of being adapted to just about any setup (including Rotorcraft)

This project will be open source and I will release all code and schematics once the project is done (mid 2008). Stay tuned!
Posted By: Brandano

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/27/07 09:12 AM

Well, if it's meant to be open source you could go the whole hog and use FlightGear on a Linux machine as simulator. It isn't quite as fancy as FSX, but would give you much more control with respect to interfacing your cockpit, since the whole sim is opensource and you can tap its internalsvia an inbuilt scripting language called Nasal. If a feature is missing you can always add it in, something not quite that easy to do with FSX
Posted By: Tacman

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 09/28/07 04:15 AM

 Originally Posted By: Brandano
Well, if it's meant to be open source you could go the whole hog and use FlightGear on a Linux machine as simulator. It isn't quite as fancy as FSX, but would give you much more control with respect to interfacing your cockpit, since the whole sim is opensource and you can tap its internalsvia an inbuilt scripting language called Nasal. If a feature is missing you can always add it in, something not quite that easy to do with FSX


Interesting, I've never actually heard of FlightGear (im a linux nut myself)
Posted By: chshrkt

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 01/14/09 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Tacman
This project will be open source and I will release all code and schematics once the project is done (mid 2008). Stay tuned!


Any word on this cool sounding project?
Posted By: Ripcord

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 01/17/09 03:25 PM

I wonder if this would work with an old Eagle TALON stick and throttle? Often wondered about that.
Posted By: jeroen

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 01/18/09 01:58 AM

If it has switches or pots then you can connect it to a BU0836.
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 01/18/09 06:15 PM

Ripcord,

Look this topic:
http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=27496&pid=319202&mode=threaded&start=

I think that to see enclosed pictures you need register.

Album: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11653999@N02/

Sokol1
Posted By: tirta

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 01/31/10 08:44 PM

Hi Guys,

Since I live in Indonesia, I have the same problem with Sokol1 regarding the price of the new HOTAS and the tax. It is simply too expensive.

And because I have already the old gameport Ch Flightstick + Pro throttle and pedal, which I can not use with my recent computer, I plan to convert all of them to usb.

Since this topic is rather old now, I would like to ask you about BU0836 Controller.
Is it still a good choice?
or are there better product (in terms of quality and price) nowadays?

Please advise.
Thank you.
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 01/31/10 08:58 PM

Hi tirta.

Yes, BU0836 still a good option. Very cost-effective.

You can assemble your our USB controller for 15~U$:
Mjoy or Mjoy16 based in ATMEGA chips.

Only prerequisite is know how make good solder.

http://www.x-simulator.de/forum/mjoy16-usb-avr-joystick-t726.html

For Mjoy (ATMEGA8 use Mercury scheme).

Sokol1
Posted By: tirta

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/01/10 05:25 AM

Hi Sokol1,

Thanks for the reply.
I really appreciate it very much.

I have a question about BU0836.
You can have up to 32 buttons, but there are only 6 columns and 6 rows,
how do you connect the cable?
Do you have pictures?

>You can assemble your our USB controller for 15~U$:
>Mjoy or Mjoy16 based in ATMEGA chips.
Could you give me the website llnks for buying parts for this one?
Thanks.
Posted By: jeroen

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/01/10 09:48 AM

The BU0836 has the buttons wired in a matrix.
Here is a wiring diagram.
(scroll down a bit)
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/02/10 02:30 AM

Originally Posted By: tirta

I have a question about BU0836.
You can have up to 32 buttons, but there are only 6 columns and 6 rows,
how do you connect the cable?
Do you have pictures?


Tirta,

Is easy, you combine 6 columns with 6 rows = 36 buttons (4 for HAT).

Every wire from each column go to 6 different buttons/HAT terminal.
Every wire from each row go to 6 different buttons/HAT terminal.

How connect HAT and two buttons (column 1, 2, 3, 4 , 5 ,6 X row 6).



The small red/black thing are 1N4148 diode - need to avoid "ghost" buttons.
Put diode in one of two terminal of every button/HAT.

Parts for Mjoy16 I buy in local shops, so is not option for us.
If you not find locally, try in eBay.

Sokol1
Posted By: tirta

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/02/10 04:23 AM

Hi jeroen and Sokol1,

Thanks for the diagram and the picture.
I think now I get it

However, I have one more question:
Do I have to connect the wire in the same order as in the diagram?
for example in your picture:
wire from row 6, first goes to S31, then S32, then hat switch: up,right, down, left.
Or it does not matter, as long as the combination of the row and the column is right?
Posted By: jeroen

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/02/10 09:51 AM

Only the row/column combination matters.
Posted By: tirta

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/02/10 06:45 PM

Ok thanks, jeroen.

Is leobodnar.com still in business?
I have emailed him 3 days ago, so far no reply, who else sells BU0836?
are there other similar products like this?

Oh well, I guess I have to try Mjoy.

Sokol1, what is the difference between Mjoy, Mjoy16 and Mjoy16-C1?
And I have taken a look at this forum from page 1 to 33:
http://www.x-simulator.de/forum/mjoy16-usb-avr-joystick-t726.html

but now I get confused, there is so many variants,
two from Senetor, one from FranKK, another from tronicgr, or powernet.pl...
which one is the best? which layout?
what is "PIC based" ?
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/02/10 10:20 PM

Tirta,

Leobodnar still in business. But is "allergic" to email . :P

Are many similar USB controlers, like APAC, but for me BU0836 is more cost effective.

About Mjoy - are tree versions:

Mjoy (ATMEGA8) based in Mindaugas/Lazy Camel scheme.

Mjoy (ATMEGA8) revised by Mercury, with versions of 3, 4, 6 (8 and 10 bits) axis and 16~24 buttons plus HAT.
Versions with less axis have fast scanning, 3 axis one is rated at 120 mhz, according Mercury.

Note that you need a different PCB and firmware for these two above versions.
They are not interchangeable.

Mjoy16 (ATMEGA16) have only one scheme version (called Mjoy16-C1) and correspondent firmware, but many PCB layouts (1), one with 52x32mm another with 150 x 80 mm with integrated key matrix, etc.
Any of these layouts in essence is the same board (same circuit, same firmware).

You choose PCB layout depending on where intends to put, a PCB with 150 x 80mm doesn't fit inside of a joystick base...

Mjoy16 allow:
8 axis (10 bits)
64 push buttons
16 toggle switch - that use 2 buttons positions = 32 buttons
4 encoders in 2 modes = 4x2x2 = 16 buttons.
Total= 112 buttons plus HAT.

Nice, but controllers based in PIC (BU0836, APAC...) is more fast (100 mhz) and "modern".

(1) I draw at least 6 different versions of simplified PCB (more as "pastime").

Sokol1


Posted By: tirta

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/03/10 06:40 AM

Hi Sokol1,

Thanks a lot for the explanation. biggrin
Wow, that is a lot of information to digest! biggrin

I am going to use it for CH Flightstick (1 hat + 4 buttons} + Pro Throttle (4 hat + 4 buttons) + Pro Pedals, so the sum is: 4 axis and 28 buttons.
So Mjoy (ATMEGA8) is enough?

why do people need 8 axis?
what are the next 4 axis usually used for?

8 and 10 bits, what does it mean? which one is better?
What is "fast scanning" ? Do I need it?

Well, it is nicer to have a smaller PCB to fit inside the joystick,
but is it harder to make? If it is, on my first try, I think I better use the easier way.

How about the parts list? Is it still the same as Mindaugas?

BTW Is it still possible to get a used gameport version CH Fighterstick nowadays?
Could you tell me where can I get it?
Posted By: jeroen

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/03/10 09:15 AM

Quote:
why do people need 8 axis?
what are the next 4 axis usually used for?
Elevator, aileron, rudder, throttle, proppitch, mixture, trim (3x), multiengine controls, flaps, speedbrake, toebrakes, radiator, ...
Quote:
8 and 10 bits, what does it mean? which one is better?
That is the precision of the chip.
8 bits knows 256 distinct positions, 10 bits knows 1024 distinct positions and therefore is more precise.
Quote:
What is "fast scanning" ? Do I need it?
That would be how often the chip reads the pots. Faster is smoother.
Posted By: tirta

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/03/10 02:02 PM

Hi Jeroen,
thanks for the explanation! biggrin
It seems that I still have a lot to learn.

I have just read somewhere that there are 3 axis on my pro pedals.
Is this true?
If it is, my total is: 6 axis and 28 buttons.

If I still use Mjoy/ATMEGA8, for 6 axis, does it still have fast scanning and 10 bits?
Or I'd better use Mjoy16-C1?

Is Mjoy16-C1 harder or more work to make? or about the same?
Sokol1, please choose your best layout and the most reliable, and the easiest to make.
And give me the links, most of the links at x-simulator are dead.
Thanks. biggrin
Posted By: jeroen

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/03/10 02:06 PM

The CH pro pedals have a rudder and two toebrakes.
Posted By: Sokol1

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/04/10 12:45 AM

Tirta,

Quote:
I am going to use it for CH Flightstick (1 hat + 4 buttons} + Pro Throttle (4 hat + 4 buttons) + Pro Pedals, so the sum is: 4 axis and 28 buttons.
So Mjoy (ATMEGA8) is enough?


Yes, since you don't use the dial throttle in Flightstick base - that in true is difficult to use with stick deflected to left, and don't need since you have a PRO Throttle.

So one Mjoy8 is sufficient:
2 (10 bits) axis in Flighstick
1 (8bits) axis in PRO Throttle
3 (8bits) axis in CH PRO Pedal

20 buttons in PRO Throttle (4x4+4=20), 4 in Flightstick, and 8 way HAT.

Quote:
Well, it is nicer to have a smaller PCB to fit inside the joystick,
but is it harder to make? If it is, on my first try, I think I better use the easier way.


Look these minimalist version, made by Tsinik:
http://www.aviasimrus.spb.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=1014
http://www.joysticks.ru/joysticks/handmade/mjoy16.shtml

Hard to make? No, depend of your skill: made PCB (ie. Toner method), solder components...

Mjoy16-c1 is more difficult to make than Mjoy8?
No and Yes, depend of PCB version of you chose, this one - made by Polish guys use double side PCB - difficult to do with home methods:
http://81.210.9.116/~apacz/smf/index.php?topic=8603.570

Note that of the point of view of basic electric circuit and firmware, the last one is identical to (smaller) Tsinik version.

Quote:
How about the parts list? Is it still the same as Mindaugas?


Yes, the parts are the same of original Mindaugas project, and are same for Mjoy or Mjoy 16, minus ATMEGA version, ATMEGA8-16PU for Mjoy and ATEMEGA26-26PU for Mjoy16. Mercury versions use 4 more 10k resistors.

If you have doubt about build Mjoy, I suggest to post in x-simulator.de thread, that centralizes information regarding the subject.

Note that the links I post are in Russian, Polish... For the same reason that I made the CH conversion object of this tread and you open your post, they don't have cheap and accessible options that Westerns have (BU, APAC, etc.) and explain too the lack of interest in Western forums in Mindaugas project (started in 2004). Exception is X-simulator thread.

I have one Flighstick opened to "USBfication" with Mjoy, try to take some pictures and suggest a PCB layout that fit inside base.

BTW - Mjoy and Mjoy16 work under Windows7/64 too.

In resume: Mjoy is cheap way, require more work. BU is easy and fast way.

Sokol1



Posted By: tirta

Re: CH gameport gear + BU0836 - My "new" USB HOTAS - 02/04/10 02:03 PM

Quote:
I have one Flighstick opened to "USBfication" with Mjoy, try to take some pictures and suggest a PCB layout that fit inside base.

Great!
I am looking forward to your pictures.

Quote:
If you have doubt about build Mjoy, I suggest to post in x-simulator.de thread, that centralizes information regarding the subject.

Ok, I am moving my discussion about mjoy to x-simulator.de.
See you there! biggrin

How about used gameport version CH Fighterstick? where did you get it?
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