PWCG update..

PWGC Update

Now that, may be the only thing that could bring me back to giving BOS another go.

Good to see Pat Wilson working on this.

Nice to know Pat is working on it.

Yep, with Pat Wilson's campaign generator and the summer/autumn maps this sim will be a helluva lot better to fly in, IMO.

Mick.

I figured this work was proceeding but it's encouraging to see that there's progress.
Having this for BoS will be excellent!

This is fantastic news!

As different as the community built linear campaigns of IL-2 1946 (my favorite game play style in 1946) are from PWCG for Rise of Flight, they are my two favorite combat flight sims of all time. They both give me a different kind of fix.

I will take a wait and see attitude, but if PWCG converts over to BoS with all its major components working I will buy BoM Early Access and become a convert overnight!

I've compared BoS to owning a Ferrari with no wheels that's on blocks in my driveway that I can't use...it just looks pretty. But PWCG will be my wheels!

Good on Pat Wilson for doing this (and Jason if he's paying him to do it).

As folks know by now I don't spam here at SimHQ, but I thought I would repost this one more time for this thread for those who aren't familiar with Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator (PWCG). My note below is for Rise of Flight, but now knowing Pat is working to convert PWCG for IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad its worthy to note the strengths of PWCG and its potential for BoS in this thread. I know nothing about the specifics of the conversion, but PWCG has enormous potential to open up unlimited game play in BoS. So here it is one more time:


"For anyone who hasn't tried PWCG but has RoF and is looking for something more, it is a must have. If you want shorter "instant action" type missions, but with career tracking, then shorten the mission distance in Advanced Config. If you want longer more realistic missions (like me) then increase the mission distance. If you want some "no contact" missions in the mix, never knowing if or when you'll make contact with the enemy, then move the percentage chance of contact to 70 or 80% instead of 100%. If you want to change the skill level mix of the AI pilots you face, then change the random skill level generator percentages. If you aren't happy with something about the missions you are flying PWCG lets you change it. I'm guessing there are over a hundred different mission parameters you can change in Advanced Config. And of course there is a Simple Config for point and click changes that can be made in just a matter of seconds. PWCG is incredibly flexible for both beginners and advanced users.

In PWCG I've had missions where I'm rolling off the field with bullets kicking up dirt all around me and wingmen on fire as I take off during an attack on my field. And I've had missions where I thought I would have no contact while taking out a bridge in an R.E.8 flight, only to be hunted down after a 90 minute flight while I'm trying to set down on my field. I've flown 3 hour Gotha missions into England, sometimes not intercepted, sometimes intercepted over England, and sometimes hunted down on the way home over the channel from squadrons patrolling out of Dunkirk (you can use time acceleration to turn them into 2 hour, 1 hour, or 20 minute missions).

Or fly Handley Page bombers on night raids into German territory only to be intercepted by Albatros night fighters from Kest squadrons coming in at you out of the dark. Or fly for a British Home Defense squadron or a German Kest at night trying to find the Gothas or Handley Page bombers in the night sky. When the big bombers reach a major target and the search lights come on its an incredible light show (whether you're in a bomber or in a fighter hunting them). The stuff that can happen in a PWCG mission pretty much blows my mind when I really think about it. Its absolutely white knuckle. If you haven't used PWCG with RoF, you really haven't played RoF as a single player. PWCG showcases features you didn't even know existed in RoF. Oh, and you can also fly in the role of a traditional hotshot fighter pilot"...


Edit 1: Another important feature in PWCG is the ability to set the density of ground and air units to tune the mission size to the abilities of your computer.

I guess I'll add little tidbits about PWCG as I think of them. I'm sure there are others who know more about PWCG than me, but I guess I would be considered a "geek" level user of PWCG...

Edit 2: PWCG uses an internal system generated "dice roll" for probability percentages. For instance, when you adjust the skill level of AI pilots to say: 25% Ace, 50% Veteran, 25% Rookie that means that overall you will face 25% Aces on the average of say 100 missions. It doesn't mean that on every mission you will face 25% Aces. You could run into a squad of rookies, but on the same mission you may run into a squad with a couple of aces and two veterans. So you can control the overall big picture, but on any given mission, or any given encounter within a mission you won't know for sure who you're up against. Of course, you can skew the percentages to 0% Aces and 0% Veterans if you only want to fly against Rookies. But any reasonable spread of percentages makes things fairly unpredictable but with a slant towards the percentages you have specified.

Edit 3: Another option in Advanced Config is to fly "Dead is Dead" where your pilot is unrecoverable if killed, or with varying degrees of wounds which sideline your pilot for about a week (minor wounds only) to 6 months game time (severe wounds enabled) depending on the degree of severity of your wounds.

This is what I was referring to a while back in one of those other threads when I said there were things afoot that I was not at liberty to discuss. Now that Jason has mentioned it it is discussable.

Yeah I think a Career Mode is what makes a "sim" a "sim". It's not just aircraft and maps and realistic physics etc. it's "simulating" what a pilot would actually DO. And not quick missions or following a script but the role playing aspect. It makes everything real. And like the real world it's not scripted. You never know what to expect and the goal of surviving in the aircraft puts everything in perspective. It's an incredible tidbit to find out its Pat who's actually working on it too. Things are looking good!

Are there any videos out there that show how the interface works and the mechanics of how things are handled to get the next campaign mission flown?

My fear is that it's all flipping back to desktop, pressing buttons on the PWCG interface, flip back to game, load the mission, fly it, flip back to desktop etc. etc.

Please, someone tell me it's not like this, of better yet direct me to a video that shows the mechanics of it.

I don't think there will be any videos available in the near future, it is in early development

If you want to know about PWCG there is enough info on how it works at RoF site

Cheers Dakpilot

Fingers crossed!

Yes, I know the BOS version isn't compete yet.

I wanted someone familiar with the PWCG to point me in the direction of a video showing it in action.

Obviously, at this stage, as I'm only interested in the mechanics I don't care if it's the ROF version.

As I don't play ROF, and I don't fancy trawling the internet, I was hoping someone with knowledge of the way PWCG works could explain it and/or point me in the direction of a video.

I had hoped that most people would have understood that was what I meant, without me needing to type an additional hundred words just to ward off unhelpful responses like the one above.

Cheers

I don't think typing RoF forums is particularly difficult...check the PWCG section it is obviously where you will find the most up to date info you are looking for

Cheers Dakpiot

In essence, yes you have to access the program outside of the sim.
There is also a third party GUI mod that integrates it a little better into the ROF menu system, however it is done by a different individual and it requires a "mods on" mode to run it.

Edit : Basic description of how PWCG works.
http://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/35879-how-use-pwcg/

So I set up campaign parameters outside of the game and click a button to generate a mission file, I load the game and find said mission file, fly the mission, then what?
Do I need to go back to desktop to have PWCG generate the next mission file?

It's not actually integrated with the game interface at all?

[Edit]

Thanks Don.

That is correct, minimize the game and do the PWCG thing between missions.
PWCG keeps track of all the campaign data outside of the game itself.

It all sounds fine, if it were still 1996.

Credit to Pat Wilson for creating a useful addition.

Shame on the developers for building only half a game, one that requires such a clunky system to actually play it.

Could you imagine any other game at all where such a system would be acceptable?

Imagine Codemasters Formula 1 2016, where they have built beautiful cars and tracks, a convincing driving model, breathtaking dynamic weather system, but in order to actually race a Formula 1 season you need to minimise the game back to desktop ...

lol it's unbelievable really.

Good luck to Pat, hope the project is successful.
I hope those that are pining for this addition get a lot of enjoyment from it.

I'm sorry but it's not really the thing for me.

You are most welcome.
It is a bit cumbersome to use, but I will say the end result has got quite the "wow" factor.

Here is a YouTube tutorial for PWCG done by a player. It focuses on initializing a new campaign and does a pretty good job of showing you most of the screens within PWCG:



But yes, PWCG runs outside of RoF. It can be launched from within RoF using the GUI referenced above or can be run as a stand alone application using Alt-Tab. I really consider PWCG to be a separate game that uses the RoF engine for missions (PWCG is that comprehensive). Other than flying you will spend almost all of your time within PWCG. Pat Wilson is a professional Java programmer, but does not work in the gaming industry. PWCG had humble beginnings, but in his spare time over the past 3 or 4 years Pat has turned PWCG into the best 3rd party application I've ever seen for any game.

Matt Milne (a professional composer with credits including scoring Star Trek TV episodes) has donated music for PWCG. Here is one of the tracks that you will hear as you move around inside PWCG:



As Don said above, all told, PWCG has the "wow" factor of a complete separate game where you will realize "oh, yeah, I'm using the RoF engine to fly the missions." Combined with PWCG, RoF becomes one of the best combat flight simulators of all time IMO (or maybe its the other way around)

Hopefully they work out something like that for BoS because yes with that add on it seamlessly launches from and returns to the main game

Right. PWCG is so elaborate with its own map and squadron roster etc it really has to run outside the game.

Hey both RoF and PWCG are free. So any questions about using it are easily answered. Be careful though you might get hooked...



PS Pat deserves donations though, he really really does.

I'd be glad to contribute money towards this project. He should setup something for us....if he hasn't already. But in all honesty...the Dev's should be the major contributors, since they dropped the ball on this from day one.

You can make donations via his website
http://www.pwcampaignmanager.com/pwcg/web/PWCG.html

Wouldn't it have made sense to do this from day one? Popularity of it in RoF, the hard work on it, would seem to be a logical step in taking Pat on the payroll to make the SP portion. Just...head scratching.

I assume this is not sanctioned by the boss in Moscow? This is never going to be part of bos but a program that will run separately? And without mods it will continue to be that way? Does this mean having to keep it updated with every official hot fix and patch?

It's so much better than what it is now though, don't get me wrong. Just kind of sad with the restrictions put on it. Imagine what a complete integration could do soooo much for this game.

Who knows....they might be contributing something towards this project in an unofficial capacity. If you give it the official blessing....and it doesn't interface correctly....there would be some liability there which falls back on the company. Right now...that's something they really don't need. Perhaps that's the "gray area" of third party mods..that they keep falling back on.....but do not "officially" embrace, at least in the early stages of development.


Thanks Sharpe for the link...

Knowing Jason I would not be surprised if this had already been done outside of 1CGS.



IIRC Pat Wilson was not interested in doing this for WWII initially and he had other time commitments. That he has changed his mind apparently is a great thing IMO. he was approached by this early on but for whatever reason it was more problematic than it apparentlky is now. I guess timing is everything.

Great point, Sharpe!

Pat is entirely unaffiliated with 777 Studios or 1CGS (at least on his work with RoF). PWCG for RoF is a freeware labor of love.

While modding has been a boon to the overall popularity of (classic) IL-2, it is not without it's issues...AAA Vs Ultrapack Vs SAS Vs free modding, it is all a horrible minefield, however PWCG does not seem to fall into any of the normal MOD issues, however, incorporating 3rd party "apps" into commercial ventures is always fraught with more complications than many realise

regardless, the fact that PWCG may be coming to BoS can only be a good thing, thanks to all who create for the benefit of all general users

Cheers Dakpilot

No, modding "can" be a minefield for devs that don't support it.

ARMA, Half Life, Total War, GTA, etc. etc. that support mods do very well. And I am sure more choices (DBW vs. CUP for example) only benefit everyone.

This notion that supporting mods is bad is BS. Don't like em? Don't use em. Easy and simple.

Modding in IL-2 has never been dev supported, hence the minefield, and a history that speaks for itself...anyway, Modding WAS supported in Rof and Mods on mode, Dev implemented, and brought about many good things, we can only hope that that the RoF model will be continued/implemented with BoS/BoM, perhaps the new developments with PWCG will open further Dev supported Mod options for BoS series. Mods on in RoF did not happen immediately

A Dev supported mods on mode for BOS/BoM can only benefit every user, non supported Mods ARE a potential minefield

Cheers Dakpilot

When I think mods being supported...I think along the lines of Arma and the Total War series where new units can be created. ROF only supported superficial mods for the most part...nobody was allowed to create planes that interested them and others.

Modders creating aircraft today for flight sims is not possible.
1. They're just too complex. Today's expectations are too high.
2. The developers whole business model is selling the aircraft. Especially in RoF this is their sole source of revenue since the game is free. So there will never be free user created planes.


PWCG is not a mod. It's an add-on. It will run with RoF in Mods-Off
Mode.

The GUI Mod that can be used to add a PWCG button to the RoF GUI. That's a mod. But PWCG will run without it.

This. Supported does not mean restricted.

All I am saying is if 1c didn't restrict so much, such as no mods, than pats work would really shine.

And "Mods on" in Rof was/is a joke compared to total war, arma, and even dcs.

Great to hear Pat Wilson's involvement. Very excited indeed!

Hardly...and just wrong.

On the contrary...there are plenty of folks smarter then you think out there...and they have talent, knowledge and passion that possibly exceeds many developers...all they lack are the tools to the DN engine. Plane models aside...I think Pat has displayed that a modder has more talent and the ability to create a career system that exceeds what a developer can do.



This is true of course and ties in to point #1. If developers did give modders the tools to create aircraft...my guess is many of these creations would be as good or better for free then what is available to purchase from the devs. Not a problem of talent...just a problem with loss of revenue...which is understandable.


Back on topic: One thing I think 777 should be cautious of is making changes to the editor that might break what Pat builds the generator upon. This happens in DCS occasionally where they change some of the editor's functionality and breaks mission s that were created previously.

Pat has supported his ROF generator with many revisions, improvements and changes...we don't know yet how long he will support a BOS generator as the sim changes.

But the business model today means aircraft could never be created by modders and given away free to the players. So it's really a moot point.

Yes...just as long as you understand it's not because "They're just too complex. Today's expectations are too high" as you claimed.

Actually...when a developer is finished and not supporting a title anymore...and modders get their hands on the code is usually when you see the title be all it can be and really shine. That's when passion takes over...when the restrictive noose of maximizing profits is no more.

Well that's an obstacle today much more so than it was in the past. A cockpit in Cliffs of Dover took an entire year of man hours to create. The flight models alone in DCS cost around $150k. The stuff in BoS is about as complex.
Also the flight models in these games are such a source of never ending arguments even when they're professionally created it's impossible to imagine a modded plane being accepted by the player base. Can you imagine a modder created Sopwith Snipe for RoF? Nobody would ever allow it in multiplayer so there's not much point in creating one. Also a modder can't create a FM in the DN engine without the code itself which won't ever be made available as long as it's being used for BoS, BoM and Bo? So the whole idea is pretty much impossible.

The idea is impossible yes...that's just because the developers have the keys...not because they are the smartest and best. I don't know why you keep asserting this is the case? I work with 3d modelers and have for close to a decade. I have seen some very talented folks that could model a Cliffs cockpit in much less time.

Maybe the Dev's at CLoD should have employed them then everyone could have benefitted

The problem with the restrictive noose of profits, is that without them there would be no games developed at all

Cheers Dakpilot

Well despite all the varying opinions and takes on the future of BOS....it would appear that work is progressing to make it better and better all the time. Not sure what the long term future prospects are for the series with the current DX9 situation..but it looks like we are going to have a lot of fun the next couple of years for sure...
Well maybe I should clarify and not speak for so many....I'm looking forward to the next couple of years...

What happened to the dude that was working on this before pat? He posted here saying he got the code and some help from pat.

Pat and him working together on it maybe?

Perhaps... I just think it is a good thing that it is happening.

Some people need to visit the Strike Fighters/First Eagles forums and see just what people have done for free.

There have been payware ones, yes, but they are far outnumbered by the free ones, and on average the pay ones haven't been the best, just the most consistent.




The Jedi Master

A PWCG for IL2 BOS is great news! It looks like I might reinstall it in the end.

Looks like PWCG will also be for the Summer and Autumn maps as well, from, a post by Pat recently

Cheers Dakpilot

Hi all,

I wanted to take a moment to talk about PWCG for BoS. I have been working on this for a couple of months now. It is finally in a state where I am debugging mission generation, ths the recent questions. It will take a bit longer to get done. Expect something around November.

RoF PWCG users will be right at home. There is a great deal of similarity in mission profile between WWI and WWII on the eastern front, which was almost purely a tactical air war. This allowed me to reuse most of RoF PWCG mission generation code.

PWCG for BoS will, by necessity, be a bit different. The biggest, obvious difference is that BoS is a series of battles and not a continuous war. PWCG will initially support only the Battle of Stalingrad from August 1942 to February 1943. Initially, it will always be winter. Hooks are in place to add more battles and maps as they become available. If/when summer and fall come to Stalingrad that too will be supported.

In the future, when there is more than one battle available, pilots will start a career at a point of their choosing within the scope of available battles. When a battle ends the pilot will move to the next battle. Using the current plans as an example, a pilot will be able to start in Moscow, fight that battle, and then move to Stalingrad. He will not be able to start in Stalingrad and then go back in time to Moscow. If it ever comes to pass that two battles overlap PWCG will allow transfers between them.

Missions will include fighter, dive bomber, attack plane, and level bomber. Fighters will fly intercept, patrol, scramble, escort and possibly attack missions. Dive bombers and attack aircraft will be limited to that role. Level bombers will get primarily bombing missions but may also get recon.

Some items - WWIisms - have been removed. No artillery spot or balloon missions. Recon takes a back seat to bombing. Night missions will not be supported in the initial release. The ability to play as an observer has been removed, so you will always be the pilot. Depending on demand some of these features may be added back in, but for the initial release they have to be left on the cutting room floor.

Historical aces are not there yet. All of the code to support them is there but I just don't have the time to do the data entry. If somebody out there is willing to do it I will add it.

Thanks for the update and all your hard work!

Excellent update Pat...thanks!

Thank you Pat. Looking better and better for BOM/BOS.

Great news! Thanks for the update.

Wonderful.....

Cheers for the update Pat, I can't wait to try PWCG for BOS, as it will be 99% better than the woeful SP we have just now.


Mick.

Thank you Pat!

Looking forward to it.
I'll gladly give a "necessary donation" on your homepage, once it is out.

Pat deserves an "above and beyond" medal if ever anyone did. Thank you, sir.




The Jedi Master

Thanks for posting, Pat. Your work is clearly appreciated by many in the community!

Great news, Pat! Thanks for the update

Thank you Pat!

Looks like I'll be reinstalling this around November. Thanks Pat!

It is going to be like that. They are two different programs and you do have to use alt-tab to move between them. Different people have different pain points and this seems to be one for you.

In RoF another user developed a a mechanism (modification of a flash file) that allowed users to flip between. It was still two different programs but at least the button was there. Personally I never saw how it was any better than alt-tab but a lot of people swear by it. Maybe somebody will add that for BoS.

Thanks so much for doing this Pat, this is awesome considering how much I love PCWG in RoF!

For those worried about alt-tabbing between the campaign and the game, you really quickly forget about it, it felt quite seamless to me in the RoF version.

Thanks for the explanation.

Glad you can appreciate that I hold nothing but admiration for you, and others that work to improve this game, and my criticisms are purely about the need for this kind of improvement in the first place.

I suppose this just goes to show what BOS ultimately lacked from the start, re: SP. I can see a lot of folks pretty keen to give BOS another go, as long as there is some kind of engaging SP career system.

I'm really glad it's finally happening, and I'm sure PWCG will only grow with content as it ages and gets refined. You never know, in time many more will start to enjoy flying more in BOS/BOM, I know I will, thanks to this.

Mick.

IMO this is BoS' biggest fail. You can excuse or work around several types of flaws, but when something just isn't there (namely a compelling SP experience of linked missions) you can't work around it.

I suppose technically this will be a work around, but I'm referring more to things you could do from inside the stock game.




The Jedi Master

Best possible news for this title, so far.

Onya Pat!

H

Any chance we will see bigger bomber formations like a full staffel with 12 or so aircraft? I've had problems getting it to work in the editor, both due to the lack of large formation logic but also due to the flock of seagulls evasion "tactic" the smaller formations suffer from.

I'd really like to fly as a wingman somewhere in a large bomber formation. The skills involved in making a good take off on schedule, timing the climb to altitude and then keeping the formation to the target appeals to me.

-C-

It's been stated many times. The Russians are fine and content with the SP portion. No need to change it.

This sadly handicaps Pats work, as does the no mods being able to be used in bos. It will be clunky to use. Sad that it COULD be part of the game if implemented as such, and go from clunky to seemless. But since russia does not want it, it will be as is.

I sure hope Pat is getting a paycheck from these devs and not just "donations". The fact is he seems to be adding more value to the game than anyone.

I'm curious about this as well

20 or so ai aircraft seems to be the limit for me, above that and I get issues with slowdowns and weird ai behavior.

PWCG is completely configurable as far as formation size. If you want 10 bombers you get 10 bombers. I think I currently have squadron size at 10 (hangover from WWI development). 12 is probably better.

Yeah .. Three flights of four. Looking forward to the finished product.

Thanks Pat

I'd be careful about that Pat. Unless the devs have fixed formation flying AI, the optimal used to be 6. Anything more than that, they bang into each other at waypoints and taking off etc. Others can comment on what the sim is like now though - I just remember this from the simple mission builder experience.

I guess your editor won't fix 'the lack of large formation logic ... the flock of seagulls evasion "tactic".'

H

For German bombers it would be four flights of three, both for He111 and Ju87.

-C-

Penshoons vid above does not seem to show that behaviour, maybe things have been updated?

Cheers Dakpilot

So bombers don't dogfight anymore? That would be a good start.

So would 15 plus aircraft in the area without choking.

Han mentioned some potential solutions in the Questions section. Since even people with overclocked Skylakes are having FPS trouble
One is making the distant AI SFM and only the closer ones AFM
He also mentioned the idea of creating a separate CPU thread for physics

And about DX11
"Actually, DX11 do not provide MANY advantages. We use DX9 possibilities so wide and full that iy will be hard to determine difference when we will switch to DX11. But we have it in mind anyway."

People also said the hover boards from back to the future were coming.

When I see it past the "idea" phase is when I can get excited. Heck, I would be more inclined to believe what they say if they ever address and fix the sound bug "bubble" that is still present.

The problem is not when they fly a straight line as in that video. The problem is when they try to turn. Hasn't changed.

H

Lots of A.I. fixes in the latest update,

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12826-game-updates/?p=289633

maybe this one

11. Bombers and transport planes don't make evasive maneuvers in high priority flight mode

will help them not do that crazy 'evasion' tactic?

I don't have any idea what 'high priority flight mode' is, but maybe high priority means 'being attacked'?

No, it's the priority setting in the waypoint menu, that's used to influence AI behaviour.

huh. well does that mean if you're creating missions you can set bombers to use that mode to avoid all the craziness they do? Hopefully?

I have no idea about making missions, just am curious.

Yes, I guess that's what it means. Though the strange thing is, that I never had problems with these wild maneuvers when creating bomber formations in my own missions in the past. I think it was already possible to achieve this effect before the release of the latest update, but I am not sure how I did it.

Cool, thanks for posting.

If anyone had any doubts about the huge interest in getting a better single player campaign in BoS look at the read count on this thread! 10,000+