Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch

So ED wait until after everyone who might have pre-ordered the harrier has paid .....

Then drops the bombshell of we have stuck a new copy protection system that has to phone home every 4 days or your software stop working!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Sorry Tom forgot the link

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3304775#post3304775

I was a bit suprised to see that they are now also collecting "anonymous" data from us with the new update. What data are they collecting from us and how is it anonymous if I have to log in?

SD

Yup buy new plane. Install spyware, and denuvo(?) . Will be happy.
Hahahaha
Bye bye dcs

Seriously?
Maybe someone need to think if it's time to arrange for a new producer?
Starts to look like I will never get to use the messiah of 2.5

link ?

Just looked Denuvo up - it sounds horrible...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denuvo

"With the release of the AV-8B today, it is import to know that this will be the first DCS World product that uses our new protection system. Rather than use StarForce keys, we are moving to a “keyless” system which binds your purchase to your www.dcs-world.com username, and NOT a key. You will not need a constant internet connection either. The new system will just “phone home” after a four day period or the next time you log into DCS World."

So am I getting this correct?

"we are moving to a “keyless” system which binds your purchase to your www.dcs-world.com username" - and it wasn't earlier? Keys are bound to your username, meaning your username is bound to your purhase, meaning all purchases have always been bound to username.

"You will not need a constant internet connection either. The new system will just “phone home” after a four day period or the next time you log into DCS World." - You don't need internet connection, software just phones home.

Just looked Denuvo up - it sounds horrible...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denuvo

Denuvo has infected games and computers many years. Nice to have some new rootkits, and for free! It's also been reported that it causes system performance drops, but that don't affect DCS because it's so well optimized. Good thing to have since DCS is also one of the most cracked PC games ever...
Way to go ED.

Well ed always use worst copy protection method, we will see what will be now.

Denuvo seems to be an SSD killer like Spotify and such heavy writer apps.
If this is the new clothes for all upcoming modules my Viggen most surely will be my last DCS module.
(but in all honesty I think it was well before this announcement)

So IF you are offline for more than 4 days ..... no DCS World

Or if your day 4 happens on one of the DCS master server down days .... no DCS World for you

read the link, thanks

I am not buying anything
and I am not eager to try 2.5
so I guess I'll delay updating 2.1

until we have more complete information about it, with copy protection it is always good to let others more eager than you try it first.

I see everyone has their tinfoil hat on.

Collecting data? Source?




Do you have a source that the new copy protection scheme will be using Denuvo DRM?

No. But i know dcs. I bet another new drm will be also horrible for people.

What other program injected in games today does that?

Q: "...if i pass more than 4 day without internet i lost the posibility of use my modules? when i reconect to the dcs server i recover this?"
A: "We certainly consider such a possibility. We will keep you informed when plans evolve."
Really? Thanks ED for the possibility to MAYBE use your paid modules without internet connection. Very nice from you to take this in consideration. Not that we have any rights to be able to use them AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT!

Q: "To clarify, if one is without Internet for longer than four days, a connection will then be required to resume playing, after that four days is up?"
A: no answer

Q: "So to be clear on this new protection Once modules are activated and you do not connect to the internet again things will work ok for the end user ? "
A: no answer

And since when it was legal to change terms of purchase after the buyer has bought the product?
We bought the modules knowing that it needs internet connection to activate, we were not informed that it needs internet connection also later on, they didn't inform that, doesn't matter if they didn't plan/know that when selling the module. Fact is we now have a new system stucked into our throats. We weren't informed of that, so we bought the modules with false information. ED is obligated to refund every module if buyer so wants. Well that is if the companies weren't "above the law" in a perfect world.
Also it's pretty weird that they avoid using the curse word called "Denuvo" for some reason. The "new protection system" it is, apparently they know that people know about Denuvo.

It would certainly be easier to list software that doesn't do this than the other way around. Even your browser collects your usage data. I don't see you running around claiming that Denuvo is part of your browser.

Is it Denuvo? What a horrible system, looks like my DCS purchases just became completely useless, as no way would I knowingly install a product that uses it:
''Some consumers have alleged that Denuvo Anti-Tamper shortens the lifetime of solid-state drives (SSDs) by writing an excessive amount of data to the drive.Denuvo Software Solutions claims that "Denuvo Anti-Tamper does not constantly read or write any data to storage media," calling it a "wrong rumor", since it doesn't perform read or write operations.Games with Denuvo Anti-Tamper state in EULA that "certain files of the anti-tamper technology may remain even after the product is uninstalled from your computer."

As far as i can see, that's just wild speculation by a few users here.

As far as i see Wags not say what drm use. And not answer questions Why? I think i know.

Yes, you don't because that would be stupid.

When I installed the update. I had to click a button to allow DCS to collect anoymous data from DCS.

SD

what update is that ?

So click "No" instead?

Nate

What exactly is the anonymous data being collected ?

"So IF you are offline for more than 4 days ..... no DCS World"

Guys, while I don't know what this is all about, and frankly I don't care, you need to reread. In your haste to be negative about all things DCS you are missing the part that says, ".....or the next time you log in." Geez..calm down.

That, coupled with the fact that the people complaining about having to connect to the internet every FOUR DAYS post an average of 10 times a day on Sim-Hq to take digs at Eagle Dynamics.

Never let some perceived flaw go to waste in the never ending quest to be a prophet of doom.....

Of course, I really applaud your obviously genuine concern for those who live "off the grid", yet play a (relatively) sophisticated flight simulator in their spare time. Your concern for toothless hillbillies living in hillbilly shacks is truly saint-like.

The point isn't about access to internet or the system "phoning home" every 4 days. The uproar is why the change to this model in the first place?

I also don't understand why the change to a "keyless" system.... I think this is so that people can no longer sell on their modules. Once it's bound to your username, it's done. You can't sell it or give it away because there's no key to be given away. Some people can GIFT you a new copy of a module, but you cannot SELL or GIFT your own modules to someone else. This is how I predict the new system is going to be

Very true.

Who is going to choose to play a SIM as intricate as DCS without access to the internet for advice, support, hints, tutorials etc etc?

And .... the fun starts:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3306892&postcount=124

Muahaha...

Is selling used modules common? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. Can you do this in other games? It may just be the direction the industry is headed, but that'd be a total guess on my part.

Someone raised a good point --- why every 4 days? Why not daily? Or 2 days? Or 3? Or 7? Who picked 4 days and why? What's wrong with checking once a month? Or every 2 months?

if I understood it well - the concerns are about privacy and having an intrusive software in your PC



that is what happens when you jump first ...

Golly,

Before you post to the ED forums complaining that your access has been revoked, take the ten seconds required to hide the pirated TV shows on your desktop.

It used to be. People would buy a module, try it out, then sell it on if they didn't like it. Or perhaps buy a module, try it, shelf it for a time, then a new module comes out which the user may find more interesting, so he sells the shelfed module to help pay for the new module. When ED showed more and more incompetence, some people even resorted to giving away their modules for FREE, as some sort of protest action. ED put a stop to selling (or giving away) modules some time back, with a promise to bring in a new system at a later date. We all know how that's progressed.

As for selling games, people do it all the time in console games, selling it to other people or trading it in to a store for store credit or cash. Steel Beasts makes this possible by selling the USB dongle.

At the time of posting this the issue had already been rectified a good long while ago...............

Begs the question:

Why post it?

Don't think it can be any worse than Starforce or the hundred of other things that users install on their PC's every day without knowing exactly what/where/how these things work. Heck, I'm sure that the only safe way these days is if you unplug yourself entirely from the world and live on an island somewhere under a vast lead-lined tinfoil covering. Anything else is fair game in this day and age unless one elects to be selectively picky

minions at all costs defend dcs.it's useless,lost case.

Come On Ice,

You know I wasn't talking about Console Games. Don't be obtuse.

As far as it goes, those looking to jump on over to 777 should expect the EXACT same thing, at least when it comes to the collector planes. They are tied to your account. Period.

I'm not warning anyone off of 777 games, because they're great. But they use a very similar system for copy protection.

It's not defending DCS at all. It's attempting to make common sense out of nonsensical arguments. By all means argue your point. Just be prepared to have your argument analysed and be further prepared to plug the holes which are inevitably present when one decides to rant for the sake of ranting as opposed to presenting a well thought, constructive argument.

the only thing I know for sure is that like it happened with Starforce - this will a source of a lot of controversy.

best thing is not to update 2.1 and wait until we know more about it.

....or just move on. I can't see spending so much time and effort (and emotions,,,geez!) on something that you aren't happy with. I still come in here to see the screenshots of new stuff and...well...frankly, all the arguments are rather entertaining. But really...talking about it for years? There are things about DCS that I'm not happy with. I try and fly the Mustang, but I'm giving up.I like my F-86, so it stays on my computer. But no more buys from me. Oh God....unless an F4 Phantom came out! Damn. But it's not gonna happen.
And still, even the people who complain buy yet another module. I just don't understand it. Like that great president Bush once said, "You can fool me once but you can fool..uh, no you can't fool me once but...uh, no you can..uh..oh , you can't fool me!"

Oh heck yeah I remember those days.....the world was going to end, fire and brimstone and the like.

And yet here we still are.

People abhor change, irrespective of whether they wake up 12 months down the line and actually realise that said change was actually for the better.

Although this user was locked out only short time, it illustrates well one of the drawbacks of this drm technique: If the authentication server is for whatever reasons unreachable (user has no internet connection, denial of service, ED went out of business...) you can not use your software anymore.
The other big drawback is, that ED has full control over your software: they can allways withdraw your license to use the software.

maybe it was before your time, people would not buy FC1.1 because of that

a lot of people left and a lot of bad blood resulted from it, it was very damaging.

Fixing a broken thing doesn't change the fact that it was broken.

Viper has been around for most of it.

so you guys know what to expect from it - DRM is too much controversy for my taste, include me out.

Software is never 100% fool-proof, especially not during early-access. If you were expecting things to work 100% flawlessly during this release well then, I'd seriously advise that you lower your expectations, unless of course the intent is that one grabs on any shortcoming as it appears to better aid in the mud-slinging.

In that case I would understand why a meal is being made of everything.

This is what will keep me from ever agreeing with this type of arrangement with *any* of my media (music, movies and games).

It's a simple test...if I can't include it in my Will (which I keep current), I'll never buy it.

AMEN

Well, I answered your question regarding modules and also gave Steel Beasts as an example, didn't I? But you go an latch onto the "bigger picture" example I've made....


Not the same. DCS sells each aircraft individually. This is obviously not the case in BoS, with 8 aircraft for the price of US$50 plus 2 more for an additional US$30. I don't think you can "split up" your aircraft, plus how are you going to play if you only buy the aircraft anyway? Don't be obtuse.

Also, has 777 changed DRM systems right after release of a game?
Does it require periodic checks to see if you're a pirate or not?




Fair point Viper.... now I wonder why I'm on your ignore list?



If you don't like it, don't buy the module!
Pro ED: How can you comment on the module if you don't even own it??!!?

Buy the module to give it a fair assessment!
Pro ED: Why did you buy it if you don't like ED and you were aware of the bugs??!!?

It's not what you say Ice, it's how you say it.

That probably covers a good 25% of it.

For the rest of the 75%, it's what you say and how you say it.

This scheme is very worrisome. No internet for three days and you can't load the game? Not sure if I'd run into this problem but I'm still not a fan at all. Besides, how many people crack DCS? I don't think you can even find semi recent versions on the various torrent sites. Seems very heavy handed for no real good reason. I can't imagine the piracy rate is high and even if there are builds are probably very outdated. Seems like a waste of money and effort.



This is false, there is no performance difference between Denuvo and no Denuvo. I do not like it one bit though.

I wonder,will this new system (whatever it may be) affect modules that have been gifted in the past?

Sorry, I'm confused. It's not what I say, but how I say it..... but then it's what I say and how I say it..... which one is it? Maybe I tend to gravitate towards a certain tone because people don't really know what they're saying..... or at the very least, don't write clear enough to get their point across fairly.

Regardless, can you not ignore the "how" and address the contents of the post? I thought you wanted a well thought, constructive argument which can be analyzed and holes identified? And then you complain of the tone of delivery? Even then, surely not each and every one of my posts are of the same tone?



Exactly one of the points!! What if you last played three days ago, and on the fourth day, you want to play but your ISP is having issues or is "upgrading services in your area"? Are you SoL then?

You will also see that if you look around, pirates always get around DRM and the only real victims of DRM are the legit users in some cases.

The related thread in the ED forum is interesting. The community manager defends the new drm schema with "It's protection for ED and even for us." Do they really believe this?

I bought a few DCS Modules in the past. But with this new drm schema I'm done with DCS.

As others have said, there are worse DRM out there, but from the consumer stand point, no DRM is the best DRM. I do hope they enforce all modules using this DRM (or ideally no DRM), versus letting teams choose their own incredibly annoying and terrible DRM (looking at you, Mig 21!).

In any event, what really annoys me isn't the DRM, but the announcement after the alpha launch. There's no excuse for that. ED had to have known for a while this was the plan. So that either makes then conniving because they knew it would dent sales and purposely withheld info, or they legitimately forgot to announce and/or plan for this to be the launch platform for this new DRM, which makes them incompetent. There is no alternative.

I feel bad for Razbam too. I doubt they chose this, and wouldn't surprise me if this was a last minute thing for them too. "Oh hey that platform you've been painstakingly working for the past several months, we're going to take a giant dump on it right before launch. K thanx bye!"




You can transfer your UN and PW, which by default will now contain your entire collection. Not ideal, but that can be included in your Will.

Really, what we've lost with this system is the ability to sell individual modules. Not great, but par for the digital course, sadly.

Also, based on that test, how do you handle buying:
-a meal at a restaurant?
-air fair and hotel bookings?
-Pretty much any service based offering?

So it basically checks each and every time you log in, and extends your authorization for 3 days --- why do it every time then? Why not just check if it's been authorized in the last 3 days, if not, then re-check for authorization? Then again, why three days and not some other random timeframe?

My favorite part is the bold part and is so hallmark of DCS --- "We've identified an issue and we have no solution for it.... suxx to be you." They actually implemented a protection system and either did not realize that this could happen or realized it could happen but put the protection system in place anyway with no solution should this issue arise. "Dear valued customers" indeed!!

I also LOL at "world class copy protection".... if this is so world class, what other games or software uses it?

That's all? Come on you can insult better than that.

Yeah this sounds far too intrusive.

The only stretch I can see for justifying this is maybe one of their customers/licensees on the military/government/corporate (Boeing/Lockheed/Sukhoi) requires it... but we certainly cannot be sure of that.

All I can say is this is a disaster for the customers. I can understand some DRM but this crosses a line. And it is very unacceptable to change the DRM on a product already paid for such as the Harrier, IMO.

I can't believe there is no indefinite offline play ability. Are you really sure?

I suspect the EULA allows ED to change anything they want without notice.

The "valued customer" vibe aged well didn't it.

I'm not seeing the relevance, since none of those are tangible media.

The only related services I have are my ISP and DirecTV (basic package, mainly for news). My music is roughly 90% CDs (burned to MP3) and 10% non-DRM MP3s. My movies and favorite TV series are on DVD and Blu-ray.

None of my media is attached to an online service, I'm being an old ornery holdout.

Okay, I've officially entered another dimension and the proof is that cichlidfan and now Flogger is agreeing with me. Anyone know how I can get back to my own dimension??



That's quite a stretch. How does implementing DRM for one customer (mil) affect the other (us) and vice versa? Heck, do you need to worry about piracy for a military program? I'm pretty sure whatever aircraft ED has developed, the "other guys" already know more than we do.



Oh God... this is so unreal....

Welcome to the twilight zone.



You will need ruby slippers for that.

Belsimtek activity in 2017
After release of Tiger and Magnificent Eight at the end of 2016 almost all our effort was relayed to development of F/A-18 DCS module in cooperation with Eagle Dynamics. In this project we are handling dynamics, avionics and systems, FCS (Flight Control System) included.

In parallel we continue our work on exciting project for fans of combat helicopters - the attack helicopter Mi-24P (was a long time since we pleased our helicopter enthusiasts, and ourselves as developers, by a war machine with rotor dynamics).

Also we started development of the famous fighter-bomber F-4E.

We are planning to post updates about each project in future.

Wish you to have a great time learning available DCS World modules and hope you will like quality of the upcoming ones.

With respect,
Belsimtek Team.

F-4E development news by the end of October 2017.

BST Announced Mi-24P and F-4E on ED Forums

Well, I'll be damned! I'll be watching. Should have the money saved up be the time it comes out in 2025....ONLY KIDDING!

The current state of DRM on the Harrier is, after 3 days(under evaluation ) if you do not log into your username account, the Harrier module will not operate. Period. Single player nor multiplayer(obviously you have no connectivity)

Just LOL at Sith and Viper (not even a mod there I think) trying to put the multiple fires out on the DCS forum. It's a terrible drm system, and a bait and switch bringing it in after people had bought the AV8.

LOL, every time ED/DCS tries to put out a smoldering 'fire' the 'fire' grows larger in size.

Never mind about that F4E Phantom. Maybe 777 will have one by the time it's released! Lol!!!! Honestly, I'm laughing as I write this. You can't help it!!!

Not trying to put fires out at all - just attempting to separate the wheat from the chaff and get real concerns put forward to the Devs which would otherwise be drowned out by the illogical, unconstructive rants of the vocal few as is usually the case when change is contemplated.

Might be best not to be gathering dried kindling and other flammable materials in the first place



Sorry, but nobody thought that this DRM was messed up to start with? Nobody thought doing so RIGHT AFTER release was bad timing? You guys need a community outcry for that?

And please stop blaming change. Change is expected and good changes are welcomed. ED makes silly decisions like these and then try to blame the outcry as if people don't like ANY sort of change? C'mon.... we're all adults here.

Just been skipping through the ED forum. The rate they're going the only customer they'll have left will be viper. Check out his opinion of concerned customers "chaff, illogical, unconstructive, rants" ED are doing their best to destroy what they have left, there's no need for you, viper, to drive their customers away too.

Oh I am sure that ED will be OK having survived Starforce and then Starforce Proactive and now the new contemplated DRM. It’s been the same outcry every time but TFC/ED keep on trucking.

Yea, it's unbelieveable how low some people can go.

I wonder. The negativity towards ED and DCS world over the last 5 or so years? The reputation they have garnered over that period. Now this? They are hemorrhaging good will and customers.

Myself.

We’ll never know, unless they turn around and declare bankruptcy or the like tomorrow.

It wont be tomorrow.

The man is prescient.

Well then we have another day of entertainment guaranteed.

Good times!

Viper
Are you officially associated with Eagle Dynamics in any role? e.g. a beta tester, a mod, etc?

I think viper has missed the point.
Its not so much the system its the selling of a product then 2 days later changing the "terms of use"
I dont know what car you drive but how would your opinion of the manufacturer change if they told you you have to now turn up at the dealership every 3 weeks or you wont be able to drive it? Im pretty sure your next car would be made by a totaly different company.

No.

Not associated at all, apart from being a satisfied consumer, that is.

Viper,

Thank you for the reply.

I can now ignore all your nonconstructive vocal rants against paying customers since you are a nonofficial spokesperson.

Of course you can - that’s your prerogative.

What reputation? This is literally the only place that is throwing a hissy fit over this. And this place has stopped being relevant to DCS since the trolls took over.

Unsure if you are aware or not of this thread at Eagle Dynamics Forums that is up to 348 posts at the time of this reply.

That does not qualify as a hissy fit, merely a debate among like minded consumers.

Thanks to that thread the time period is already under review. A couple of other considerations have also been forwarded to ED for further contemplation.

Ain’t that the truth - there’s been much worse lol

The "can't meet a deadline, unfinished for years, glacial development, abysmal customer service, abysmal customer relations, liars, unresponsive to feedback etc, etc" reputation.
Oh they're throwing a "hissy fit" over on the ED forums too. Maybe all y'all need to collectively get your heads out of your backsides before its too late. the clock is ticking. Tick tock
Edit
Beaten to it

What clock?

And as cichlidfan said above, discussion!=hissy fit.

The "how long before its no longer financially viable to continue due to lack of customers" clock.

27 years of history and no indication of any hiccups so no reason to worry now.

Im sure it smells of roses up there

History repeats itself over there - easy to predict a pattern. As said previously, Starforce drivers = meltdown. Proactive = another meltdown.

And here we still are.

I wonder why.

Yes i wonder too.

Gather 100 DCS users, start doing stand-up comedy and drop that line - guaranteed laughs

And a thousand nods of agreement

It's not all one way or the highway - there's always another side to every story.

Not any more, he was one of the "mods" over there for a while
He had to be retired after wearing out his Ban Hammer banning thousands of people

Wow, what to say.......i don't want to read 11 pages of comments but i bet there are people here and moreover in ED forums somehow defending this practice.....

2 reasons;

1: ED don’t learn from their mistakes
2: The incompetence on display for desktop products is bankrolled from commercial/military products

Otherwise Wags wouldn’t have to release a public statement crying about why the company he works for are so poor at their jobs and begging half of his existing customer base not to jump ship to 1C-777/BOx.

Well, that's a weird way to read the letter by Wags... Truly unbiased.

Are you still playing the game Paradaz?

Basically any good will from Matts "Letter from the bottom of my heart"
Has been p1ssed away with the DRM debacle that is on going

Deceptive or inept ? Not sure which is true .....
how come
No mention of the new DRM when people might have been pre-purchasing the Harrier

Response from ED minions ... Matt wrote the letter the management team wrote the DRM

Do they not communicate ? Surely there would be an email trail , minutes of meetings etc showing that this was discussed

According to people here ED should have been closed due to financial problems years ago... Meanwhile, according to steamcharts, the amount of people playing the steam version of DCS is almost double of that of Il-2 BoS, even if it is a small sample. You people here clearly represent just a minority of the sim community.

Military contracts will always keep them afloat.

End users will always suffer an ED will continue to be propped up by shills & minions.

...I haven't touched dcs for a year...but it seems little has changed.

Yes, it's just shills, minions, and the thousands of people that buy their products.



Well, if FartHog hasn't played for over a year, that can only mean that the game is dying.

...I rest my case.

Oooh, what an argument... Everyone who doesn't take part in the SimHQ anti ED circle jerk is a shill and a minion. Fantastic logic! By that logic, everyone that hates DCS is a shill of 777.

I'm not arguing...you are.

Why are the DCS forums by far the busiest forums on Sim Hq?

Much busier than Falcon 4/BMS. Much busier than IL2 Battle of Stalingrad.

The only forum that even comes close is the General Community Forum.

I find that intriguing.

Then I don't think you know what "I rest my case" means.

#%&*$#! Absolute #%&*$#!

After deleting posts where I obviously made things difficult for the Chuckle Brothers over in the USSR, a certain somebody wasn't very quick with editing in the reason for post deletion, and what was displayed? Deleted by, yes, you guessed it, 159th_Viper. Unfortunately, it's now been edited away. So unless he's had his "MODERATOR RIGHTS REVOKED" somebody just told a massive porkie because he actually has moderator powers.

Furthermore, guess who's listed in numerous, including fairly recent, credit sections published by ED themselves? One certain Gavin “159th_Viper” Torr.

Definitely not a moderator, and definitely not a tester.

Secret Police ?

The diatribe you just posted?

Absolutely. Grade 1 #%&*$# indeed. Straight outta Main Street. But then that’s conduct becoming these days it would seem over here.

What a pity.

As I stated, it’s been years since I ceased being a moderator over at ED forums but hey, continue waving the SimHQ anti-ED flag.

Let me clear that up. Because folk are busy enjoying those titles. The BoS section was pretty busy when it first rolled out because of the unlocks debacle. But 1c/777 listened to their customers.
ED on the otherhand dont listen. They ban any customer that dares to voice their displeasure on their own forums and any other forum. They ban folk for pointing out mistakes with their "we know more than you do. We dont care if youve actually worked on a real A10. We're right you're wrong, you're banned" folk have paid a pretty penny for DCS products and they remain unfinished while new modules are rolled out. That is why this section is by far the busiest. It is because ED are inept. Wagner would be better served sorting out the ineptitude of the development cycle and forum moderators and listen to paying customers than writing some BS letter that tries to paper over the glaring chasms.

LOL!!!

Again with the ass backwards logic. The more people are talking about a product, the worse it is... You're really funny people.

The Sim Hq DCS community is for the most part a Self-Licking Ice Cream Cone.

It’s a real pity.

Was a great place in the good old days.

Whers the triple facepalm meme when one needs one. Just shaking my head.

And yet here you are.

Trying to lend some objectivity to proceedings in case a newcomer to the genre stumbles upon these forums and takes the rantings of the 5 or so regular noise-makers of the SimHQ DCS forums at face-value.........

That would be an even greater pity.

So yeah, here I am.

Thank God that's not needed at ED forums where thruth and nothing but the thruth is served.

Exactly.

I would think newcomers to DCS would visit the ED forums first. Im sure the smell of roses and general feeling of warm fuzzyness over there will sway their decision. No objectivity but hey its the possitive no objectivity right?

And two wrongs all of a sudden makes a right?

Persons can elect whether to act like a horses ass or otherwise. There is really no excuse for some or nearly all of the crap that is posted here, some of it blatantly untrue.

Now I know that there is nothing anybody can do about it - freedom of speech and all that. What can be done is to provide clarity where needed so that the bovine-doodoo that is sometime served up over here is diluted to mildly palatable proportions, especially for newcomers, as stated.

I won't argue that we have loads of crap posts here but I find them amusing and I rely that any newcomer is able to sort it out.
What you do get here though is all true opinions, and they stay since mods here are top-notch and only slap people when going on person over opinion.

I've had a few eye-openers over the last few years here.

At ED you only see the manipulated happy-world.

(and who the hell spells truth like "thruth"? I must be drunk even before getting my friday beer)

You want to point out some of the "blatently untrue crap" you see posted here?

I call them as I see them.

If you want further info then please feel free to stalk my posts.

Don’t expect me to spoonfeed you information - I really don’t have the time nor the inclination, sorry.

C'mon man, if you're gonna throw around accusations you're gonna have to back them up otherwise folk are just gonna think you're a troll. So where are the blatently untrue posts?

ED have listened. From what I remember DCS WWII modules were supposed to be a separate game. Customer feedback changed this. They've also added some specifically requested features into the ME like control of certain AI behaviors and aircraft skin previews. The initial release of the DCS updated saw them putting out rapid fire updates based on user feedback. To say that ED does not listen is out right wrong. Now of course they can't answer every customer request, so some go unasnwered, but that's a limitation of reality.

As far as being banned for saying anything negative, if that was the case then I don't know how I'm still allowed to login. I point out flaws with DCS AI, ME limitations, physics issues, etc. I've even directly contradicted the opinions of some moderators. I don't always agree with ED, but I haven't seen them go out of their way to ban people. In the past they were overly strict with forum moderation, I'll agree with that. It has improved in recent times though.

To be upset with ED is perfectly fine. They've made their fair share of mistakes and confusing decisions. I don't see why things have to be blown out of proportion though.

On the new DRM. I like the system we have already. I don't really see any benefit to the change. Having to check in every so often is more of a hassle than entering keys once or twice, and I'm sure I'll run into an internet issue at a bad time at least once and possibly be locked out of the sim.

Hello Everyone,

If you have a active Eagle Dynamics Forum Account or, willing to create one, Please vote what you feel is an acceptable period of time you can be without connectivity and still use DCS World Offline before having to re-verify your account.

Please only vote there so we have only raw numbers to voice to Eagle Dynamics. Not a thread full of comments

My Poll:

Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit

Will it have the same effect as when Wags posted what the customers wanted most and a dynamic campaign won hands down and it still never will see the light of the day?

Hi Monnie Rock , Can you edit the poll and add an extra choice

Infinite - just keep using the Starforce system we have now it just works fine

LOL. Anybody remember the Mig-21? Aren't you being a bit liberal with the truth here just to bang your own drum?

With respect, the Mig-21 issues were purely due to the fact that Cobra and his team felt that they knew better than ED on how to implement Starforce. Quite obviously, they were incorrect.

So one 3rd party could not at the start sort out how to do their licensing correctly ?

I admit that the MIG-21 guys made a balls up of how they configured the starforce for their aircraft .. it took them a while
but it is pretty much sorted out now - least it was 2 weeks ago when I had to re-activate it with a hardware change

Leaf, it's not only about Starforce. This way they can unify Steam and Stand-alone versions.

Please link or show me where that has been stated by an Official Eagle Dynamics Employee.

Sithspawn said this is the goal eventually, to someone asking about Steam on reddit. And it's logical, since the problem with Steam is the keys. This system uses no keys. When they release the Harrier on Steam they're gonna have to solve this problem anyway.

Cool link that please?

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/com...opy_protection_change/dqidyvo/?context=3

The quote is a bit different than I remembered it. But, as I said above, when they release the Harrier on Steam, they'll have to make it work with your digitalcombatsimulator.com account anyway.

Sithpawn is not an Eagle Dynamics Employee. Any changes to purchased content must be stated by an Official Eagle Dynamics Employee

indeed it is

"I think that is where they want to go, I dont know if it will work right away, but that would be a benefit eventually."

So it is a guess as it stands basically?

As I said twice now, they can't release the Harrier on Steam without somehow linking your digitalcombatsimulator.com account with your Steam account, since you need your dcs.com account to run the module.

This link has happened with some games already, not just for copy protection, for example if you want to go on the official Assetto Corsa forums (not the Steam ones) you have to log in with your steam account and link it. Paradox forums do something similar as well.

As I have said twice now, Sithpawn is not an Official Eagle Dynamics Employee.

His post was based on his assumption / personal opinion

Until a statement comes from a Official Eagle Dynamics Employee, you are spreading false information

They can release the Steam version of the AV-8B Harrier just like Normandy with Steam DRM

Per Steam, on the Steam Store page for Normandy DLC:
RELEASE DATE: Nov 23, 2017
Please note that this DLC uses Steam Keys instead of Starforce keys. As such, this purchase cannot be activated on the DCS World e-Shop version.

First, that was for leaf, not you.

Second, THEY ARE MOVING TO A KEYLESS SYSTEM.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3304775&postcount=1




"This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting. Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you."

Seriously, can anyone here read?

Yes, my reading comprehension level is just fine.

It says:
"This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting. Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you."

There is no language about "unify Steam and Stand-alone versions."

I seriously doubt that Steam is going to change their stance and allow keys/moduies purchased on the ED site to be used on Steam. They stopped that, on purpose, years ago (probably for financial reasons) and I doubt they will have reconsidered.

No, it means that it will apply to Steam users as well. And to apply to steam users they will have to remove the steam keys that you mentioned.

EDIT: that was for Monnie.

Correct Sir!

Steam wants Their DRM

Additionally, from Groove, an Offical Eagle Dynamics Employee posted HERE :


The above quote is the Current terms of purchases of Eagle Dynamics Products at the Steam Store



The details / Steam negotiations / Final agreement has not been stated. They are "working" on it.
Steam could say " Kiss my (_y_) we have Steam DRM here if you want to sell your product here" e.g. The Mirage 2000C and future releases

Everything else is hearsay until the "Details/Negotiations/Final Agreement" between Steam -vs- Eagle are Officially Published.

That's what I was thinking also. Time will tell if they worked something out.

Actually no, they don't care what DRM you use. As games sold on Steam may include limited activation, constant internet connections or even no DRM at all (not even the Steam DRM) I do not see why it would be different for ED.

What Valve wanted was the profits. They often allow older games to merge onto Steam for free out of goodwill (schemes that are no longer supported, such as GFWL) or because they will think it will bring future business to them. To put it bluntly, most people were buying from the ED website and then activating on Steam. As DCS is not a Steamworks title they were not getting any profits from a purchase on the ED store. But they were paying for the bandwidth for each person that did buy from ED and decided to use Steam to download/update. Add in the fact that the ED store tended to have lower prices, people bought there as the profit margins were better for ED, and the Steam version had limited beta/alpha modules there was little incentive for Valve to continue that policy. It failed to convert most DCS players.

However, now I am more included to use the Steam version of DCS due to this DRM. Since future versions of DCS on Steam lack this DRM I'd prefer to buy from Steam. The problem is now a few of my modules (M2000C, I think MIG-21) cannot be redeemed on Steam so unless I want to pre-purchase those modules on Steam I am stuck with the ED version. If anything, now would be a good time for Valve to temporarily re-instate that policy!

I've never bought any DCS stuff on Steam. I have nothing against Steam and use it all the time for other games, but there never seemed to be any compelling reason to make the switch for DCS.

In addition, I keep DCS on a dedicated SSD that only has DCS.

My Steam drive is almost full because between myself and my two sons, we buy a crapload of games.....

There's a poll running on the DCS forum now, most popular option seems to be 30 days, be interesting to see what ED do. One things for sure, they seem to have alienated a whole new group of users over this.

I created that poll. Please participate.

Link to poll in my Sig

Source

Source

Source


Someone had his argument analysed and then he refuses/fails to plug his own holes and resorts to his version of a "well thought, constructive argument."

I just thought I'd provide a TL;DR version to help newcomers figure out a few things

That makes no sense........if SimHQ is completely irrelevant regarding DCS then you are only here to troll! Or do your posts only become the ‘relevant’ ones? I think that’s how the ED forum message boards work but it’s never been the case here......all opinions count.

As far as I’m concerned this site/sub-forum is very relevant because it is one of the few places we can talk in a mature fashion about both the positive and negative aspects without anyone from either ‘side’ trying to realign the respective opinions......even though you are trying your best. As we all know the same cannot be said on the ED forum message boards because replies get censored and users banned that don’t conform.

Again, the difference you are bringing to the table is that we are discussing the product and features such as the Harrier, the copy protection and the recent letter detailing the 2.5 release in the coming weeks. You seem more bothered about commenting on the users here (remember the reading comprehension?) and the ‘irrelevant’ (it has to be if it’s ‘not relevant’ doesn’t it?) SimHQ community in general.

So ...........

1. First the thread was opened on ED forums about the new DRM system for "feedback" - 11-29-2017, 03:55 PM

Then they started getting a lot of rightly concerned people posting with objections to it, so the mods did here best to belittle
anyone who was objecting and generally being rude to them, got facts about system works mods ?
then post them in the first post and let people talk, dont keep butting in every 3rd post

Mods are supposed to be there to stop people having flamewars and having nasty fights with each other swearing etc , your mom type stuff
But over at ED the thread that was opened to allow paying customer to voice their concerns is half full of posts from the "mods"
trying to down play these concerns and how awesome this will be for everyone

2. Next step ..... MOVE the thread from the second sub forums (where eveyone could see it) and bury it pretty far down the list so that people cannot see it in the Payment/Activaton sub forum
Bet if it had oft been a lot of glowing praise it might have stayed where it was

3. Then start deleting posts that are "Off topic" .... but these were probably posts not too happy with they system .. but of course leave the Off Topic posts from the mods that have been posted

4. Next they close hte thread with the hilarious line of "Thanks for the discussion guys. " which should really read
"Thanks for the good and constructive points you guys made about how this system will effect people who are offline for long periods of time, though most likely these people
wont have a chance to respond because they are offline right now, oh and we only gave you 2 days to try and discuss this before pulling the plug"
on 12-01-2017, 10:08 PM

No, I was interested in answering correctly a member's question (on the topic of the thread) that was answered incorrectly by another member. That's how I came in the discussion, your comment on me had nothing to do with that, hence the reading comprehension comment. And don't play innocent, there is enough name calling coming from the other side.



This is especially funny, when everyone defending the game is called a shill and a minion. There was a poster that was answering questions 2-3 weeks ago that was called an advertiser by some of you people here.

Not everyone, just you and that weird ex-moderator (nothing to do with ED) guy.

You're not going to change any minds here, your mission and the time you are investing in it is futile and wasted, and you're reinforcing everything wrong in the world of DCS every time you open your mouth.

All you can do is troll threads in an attempt to start arguments and get them closed, rendering anything you (and the weird ex-moderator (nothing to do with ED) guy) do or say a pointless venture.

This forum is is the voice that ED and it's moderators tried to silence, do you seriously think your efforts will achieve their goal?

I thought you still did.

as to the manner that people post - that is they way it is and has been since I've been a member here.

if SimHQ mods were to start editing that, they would need to hire 24/7 professional moderation and that would kill the forum purpose, which is to have lively discussions.

Oh, you must be talking about 'David_OC', a chap who has been banned from these forums more times than I can ever remember (last account was 'leigh583')....who's only purpose other than trolling these boards was an attempt to answer any and every post within the DCS section with a load of off-topic guff whilst attempting to blow smoke up ED's behind.

The post you're referring to is here where 'XIII' called him out so there you go, one person called him an 'advertiser', others just replied to his posts and responded to information about the product and then everyone realised it was an alternate account as he went further and further off-topic so yet again, not quite the story you're trying to paint about the SimHQ community. You may choose not to back up your arguments with any facts but I generally do and it's there for you to see so you don't have to make things up or move the goal posts to fit whatever argument it is that you're trying to make.

Read the thread yourself.......it starts here with 'David_OC/leigh583' submitting the first post and everyone replying about the product/information that he submits. He is banned by the moderator on page 7.

Thread temporarily locked.

OK, I'm returning the thread to service. About 5 pages worth of posts have been removed in the process of cleaning it up. Some of the messages were not problematic, but since they were in the reply chains containing other (problematic) posts, they got caught up in the cleanup.

Stop the name calling. Address the content of the posts, but refrain from characterizing the authors of the posts.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4073031/Re:_*_Notices_to_participants_#Post4073031

(Emphasis added)


I advise everyone to return to the topic of the thread.

A final thought... If someone finds the nature of SimHQ's discussions so troubling that they just can not help but proclaim it frequently with negative characterizations... we can arrange to spare you further trauma.

Thanks!

As I said, this may be partly because not many defenders last very long before resorting to ad hominem, strawman, or outright dropping the points they were trying to make. As for this other poster, as Daz said, that was the 4th or 5th account of David_OC. If you read the forum rules and if you read David's posting history, it's a wonder that he doesn't get banned outright. I guess the moderators are giving him a chance to return and contribute constructively (and I think Force10 has said something to this end before), but he often simply resorts to his old antics and thus gets banned again.

They took over my Poll

I see, haha WTH?
Only at ED.

What?? Surely you jest!! Not the most reputable forum on the internet!!

"All your posts are belong to us!"

Now now Comrade Monnie,
just relax and take a deep breath, don't start talking about that evil Starforce and how well it was working before all this mess. You know that Starforce is just pure evil and we do not want people knowing that it was just fine the way it was. Remember Comrade, Starforce evil, New DRM Good, or we will have to sedate you.

At least ED can change the results now to save face as it was increasingly looking like 90 days was going to win....something they clearly don't want given that it was 3 days in the first place.

How so?

They specifically confirmed shortly after the news was released and the uproar started that the time period was under review, well before that poll started.

This is true, but I am still amazed that management did not even know the correct number of days that would occur before phoning home was required. Wags indicated 4 but the guy in the trenches, coff, indicated 3.

There seems to be a clue here somewhere........

Suggestion --- transfer the poll here and then encourage users on the ED forums to come here to vote and use Monnie's sig image as their own in protest?

That way, they can't mess with the poll and I don't think there's any rules against sig images in the ED forums.... What do you think, Monnie?

Yeah, that’s an unprofessional disconnect for sure.

It happens.

What would be the point? They're not required to abide by the vote, unless they agreed to that somewhere. It's just asking for users opinions, not for the final grace period length.



I feel like there is a high probability of this being cited if there is a "protest":


1.10 Product feedback and constructive criticism is encouraged when provided in a mature and courteous manner. However, feedback that is abusive, insulting or condescending is not welcome. Additionally, to bring up a particular issue repeatedly after it has already been acknowledged will be considered "trolling" - in such cases a warning will be issued to the author and the post will be removed.

I think all they wanted to do with the vote was take over it officially, but I guess it's weird that it was just done with no mention of the transfer of post ownership or anything.

There seems to be a clue here somewhere........

I don't see it. Whatever number people choose, it wouldn't give them a reason to need to save face. They don't have to go with the most popular option.

Quite so. They definitely have not agreed to anything. 3 days is however extreme so hopefully the period can be lengthened to at least 14 days.

Umm. Picture, what picture?



It has traveled to places I have never visited before and people are using in their sig I never even crossed paths with before. That slut little picture. No commitment nowdays. geee

As far as the poll it's their baby now. My goal was to compile some numbers, informative responses, with minimal drama, no passive aggressive behavior from certain leadership role people then, getting ED/TFC's attention on the results.

Goal achieved.... Obviously

Oh, of course they don't have to go with the most popular option. Heck, they can even make it daily or hourly or check-before-the-pilot-takes-off! Still doesn't remove the fact that there was a public outcry about their silly little DRM.

Now as a company trying to make sales, even to a market that is not your primary market, do you not recognize the value of good PR vs. bad PR?



Who said this was about asking ED to agree to anything???

I am shocked!!! Have they no shame!??!?!

You almost owe me a new keyboard.... which would be much trouble as it is no longer in production....



I would admit it would be interesting to have some numbers..... and to have it outside of ED's forums where the ban-hammer is used responsibly would give more credibility to those numbers.

I quote:

What do you have now? I have an extensive collection of no longer in use keyboards. I might even have something that you might like better.

I found it ! I found it! I can get you a new one.




I forgot to mention -Ice. The women in the picture do not come with the Keyboard. They are not included. I know , I know it's Christmas but, they might be a little old for you by now and you might need some additional help.

Sure, but no matter what happens with the vote the original reactions, some of which were good, are still going to be there for all to see anyway. ED also made it known quickly that the original 3 day grace period wasn't set in stone. People were upset with the original 3 day timing, but I wouldn't say that it was a disaster. I think it was good of them respond quickly to concerns if anything. You could say they were pressured a little by some of the feedback that they got, but what sticks out to me is how fast they tried to address people's concerns.

When your house is burning down, you try to put out the fire.

When your car is going off the road, you turn it back on the road.

There seems to be a clue here somewhere........

Pray tell, where does it ask ED to agree to anything? It is asking the USERS what they think is acceptable and last I checked, USERS != ED.



Trust me, mate, I've been looking. I have an old Logitech Wave cordless keyboard. Every now and again, I browse the keyboards and mice section of the local Curry's or Maplins or my online sellers and nothing really stands out. I'm not much of a fan of RGB or MX switches....




KEYBOARD, you old git!! You're thinking of a TYPEWRITER

Having said that, I originally trained on typewriters, both mechanical and electronic..... I loved the electronic ones for the softer touch needed but still like the clakety-clack of the watchamacallit that typed the actual letters.



In all honesty, Monnie, I don't think I'm the one who needs that lube.....

And who is to say that ED won't tamper with the results? When they take over your thread, do you feel that everything is still above board?


Where?


I think the fact that they thought they could get away with 3 days is a disaster..... but then again, considering ED's track record, it's more par-for-the-course, really.

As for how fast they are at addressing people's concerns, I'm sure there are other concerns more pertaining to the core simulation that they aren't at all interested in addressing in this lifetime....

Is that vote still going??

Viper, that was my statement which I drafted when creating the poll. Not ED/TFC's words

Yes.

That is obvious from your post over at ED forums.

In hindsight I probably should have hyperlinked your post to my comment but again, due to the obvious nature thereof I did not.

Apologies for the oversight.

Yes.

There is absolutely no guarantee of that, and given ED's form and the nature of the posts already in there from the mods it's probably unlikely that someone showing their disapproval won't get banned or suspended and their posts disappear along with them because that's how that place operates. People have already been warned about raising the same point over and over again or getting involved with scenarios that aren't specifically relevant to them.

Just think about it...someone that is raising the obvious concern about serving armed forces personnel who often have extended periods of time without internet connectivity (and certainly a lot longer than 3 days).....do ED only want to hear from those people out in Afghanistan right now....the same people that don't have any internet connectivity. Perhaps ED are manning the encrypted satellite phones and are awaiting their calls when there is a short break in the ongoing operation?

Apology accepted, Sir

Ah well. I am a fan of Cherry switches. Even the silent ones are sweet. Wireless for games is a no go for me. My Das Keyboard and Razer Blackwidow do me well.

Of course, I love the click of the ancient terminal keyboards that I first used with a computer.

The good ole Model M

Vote seems to be now 61 users say 30 days and 60 users say 60 days. So It's probably gonna be 10 days

Ah yes. And you could pound a nail with it if needed.

EDIT: Yes, a little thread derailment is a good thing. It helps maintain perspective.

The vote is irrelevant. ED is going to do what they want. It will be interesting to see what happens in the long run.

......and ED will state they never created the poll so it was actually nothing to do with them!

Maybe a typo?

61 votes for 30 calendar days 39.61%
61 votes for 90 calendar days 39.61%

They have ignored the results of polls that they have created so...

You know them to well !!


This was not an ED/TFC Official Poll. Results are meaningless. Carry on with your 3 days and connect up people

Temp locking this thread (and maybe another) while I catch up.

I was on vacation and had a family member pass the first day I was on vacation...so apologies for not being here for when things got nuclear...I was tied up.

I have some homework to do on catching up on things here...I'm going to take a look, so patience on the thread re-opening is appreciated.

I will say off the bat, one member will not be joining us for quite awhile. He clearly has no interest in actually being a SimHQ member and uses the free service provided to tell us how bad and irrelevant of a community we are. I doubt
he will lose any sleep over it, and neither will I.


Stay tuned...

The thread is open now.

Unfortunately, there are 3 more members that will not be joining us for awhile . Some will be gone a little while...some a while longer.

I have stated this before and it's worth putting in bold...anyone that uses the free service SimHQ provides to attack SimHQ as an organization or a community will be dealt with swiftly and harshly. One would think this is common sense...but it's worth repeating.

Reading all the posts in one sitting actually gives you a better idea how the thread evolved as it's all fresh in your mind. Much like it is 75% of the time...customers are critical of the product, and the focus is shifted to individuals shortcomings.

As ED has evolved to what they are now...SimHQ has also evolved. It's unfortunate, but ED's sanitizing/control of certain forums has made SimHQ a sort of "safe zone" for critical opinions, and they don't have to be constructive. We all would prefer if
they were constructive, but it's not a requirement.

Cyberkut did a great job clearing out the thread ...so I'm leaving what's in there as it was before the lock. This is an important topic that should have some discussion...so let's keep it clean and unlocked please.

Thanks in advance.

Thank you Force10, and commiserations for your loss

Good sir, thank you for re-opening the thread

Please accept my heart felt commiserations for your loss

I am sorry for your loss

No typo, at the time was like that - also just before temp locking the thread I was gonna mention at the same time there was 154 voters and 157 votes.
Now there's 191 voters and 199 votes.

Duh, silly me did not recognise the threads were "merged"

Many thanks to Force10 and CyBerkut for managing these forums in a fair and even manner. Long may SimHQ remain that way

Actually, they merged the threads, which is why the poll thread now has 489 posts.

hmm, does that mean they take one post from one thread, then put a post from another thread , and then keep interleaving them ?

or is new thread appended to old thread ?

Interleaved. Posts are part of database and sorted by date/time, so if threads are merged the original posting date and time, for each post, is maintained.

AH cool, that means because poll thread stared after first thread closed and locked, it kinda flows right

Except for the oddness of having the the OP of the poll now be post 377, yes.

when you merge posts or ban members or delete accounts you can mess up with the file structure of a forum, polls in particular , that is why it is best to avoid doing that.

OT

the DCS 1,5 uninstaller is very efficient - I discovered that it removes the software while leaving the skins I had added, which is neat - although I had backup copies of them all, so I deleted it all, frees a lot of space on my HD.

As well as, the merged thread has the name of my poll "Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit" not the previously closed /locked thread "IMPORTANT: AV-8B COPY PROTECTION CHANGE!".
Secondly, the thread of my poll "Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit" now has the author a "Wags"

Guess he liked my poll



This was the first post of my poll
Poll:Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit

Funny that they didn't think themselves to put a poll, I'm glad they fixed it by taking your poll and putting their names on it as if they originally had started it.

The uninstaller only removes files that it knows about, hence mods that only add new files are left intact.

Yea, it's well made - also like that when you have replaced some files and update/repair the game - it never deletes your files, just replaces them. That's another + for the installer system.

(although Tom's post wasn't about the installer I think)

In all hindsight

1) The poll about DRM changes should have been done before accepting Pre-Purchase payments of the AV-8B N/A VTOL . Gathered Data, and tailor the system to attract consumers, not alienate them.
2) The announcement of AV-8B N/A VTOL should have stated a changed DRM with detailed information that was decided in the above poll. None of this Wags saying 4 days, C0ff saying 3 days total miscommunication snafu
3) The e-shop store description for the AV-8B N/A VTOL should have stated the changed DRM in big red letters, with "Minimum System Requirements" language to something of the effect"Requires Internet Activation, Requires Internet Connection for LAN and Multiplayer, Requires Internet Connection for Single Player Offline Every 3 Days "

Exactly.

(I was "glad"! in that other post :P)

very practical system and uninstalls the same way with 2.0 - way to go DCS !

I agree 100%. Never had any problems installing, modifying, deleting DCS World.

Quite clean

Simply put if ED had have been upfront about it and not deceptive ..... then people would have asked questions and probably NOT bought the harrier

Lol, 24 pages of arguing about DRM, haha, welcome to 2017, DRM is here too stay wether we like it or not. Im not a fan of DRM, but i have come to accept that it is the world we live in and we cant deny developers to try and protect their product.. Not many games out there that doesnt use some kind of DRM these days alltough there are exceptions and kudos too them..

For me having everything tied up too my username and not keys is kinda convinient, i guess one mans bread is another mans death😜

Errr, dont think you have been reading this thread right

No one that I can see has said they dont want DRM ....
Just that the current DRM works and the new system is very bad for the customer

And this thread is trying to address the issue that ED
KNEW they were changing things DRM wise with the harrier but CHOOSE NOT to tell the customer before they took the customers money

Waited until release day then .... SURPRISE , we have your money now what can you do

If ED had a shred of decency, they would offer REFUNDS to all HARRIER pre-order customers

Read most of it and really dont really see any problems with it, and seen many complaints about having DRM in itself is a problem. Nah having to phone home I dont really see as a problem unless your some hillbilly redneck choosing to live off the grid...

And people complaining about this online requirement doesnt seem to have any problems logging on this forum every minute to complain about DCS everyday 24/7,,,,,,,,,

Do you know anyone who is serving in the armed forces? I'm ex-military and redneck hillbillys don't even come into it.

Maybe those "hillbillies" also have same right to play as everyone else?
If ED did nothing wrong, there wouldn't be complaining posts here everyday and not even 24/7.
Also didn't some people in here just post something about DCS's install system?

How about the dedicated, patriotic men and women selflessly serving in the armed forces to protect your country, your family, YOU, your rights of freedom, that are on deployment for months at a time in remote locations where communications security is tight?

How about workers that do remote working in areas without typical commodities that are assigned there for months at a time?

How about customers that have vacation homes in areas that do not have typical metropolitan commodities on vacation for months at a time?

indeed uninstalling 1.5 & 2.1 worked flawlessly, no complains whatsoever.

I have now close to 60 GB additional free space

it total, now I have free :



and used space : 777

neat isn't it ?

Every game in the world has some corner of the net where people gather to hate it just because of lack of other things to hate, nothing new...
I laugh a little bit when i see all those haters on DCS now praising 777 il2 box,,, a while back it was 777 that got all the hating around here,,,lol.
When everything smoothens out at ED i guess we have too move on too? Back to 777 and flying circus messing up dev time for WW2...

Those hillbilies could just get out of their cave and connect too the got damn world like the rest of us?

Now whats wrong with the install system now, in my years in DCS i have never had any issues with it, and i dont think i ever heard anything wrong about it either? Enlighten me?

What got damn freedom, the got damn US and my countrys puppet goverment licking their boot has gotten us all into this isil mess, terror #%&*$#. Life was peacful before nato turned from a defesive alliance too a got tham US private Puppet army. War for making democracy, do you still buy that BS, US wars is all about control of resources and world hegonomy, wether a country is ruled by a dictator or democracy they only survive on wether they do as told by US... Like saddam was only a problem when he started nationalizising hes oil industry,,,,
Too be nice too you and your country, sorry for your losses and too the famelies, but your foreign policies in the last 60 years im not really
impressed...

nothing is wrong with the current starforce install / activation system, it is the new proposed one people have issues with

This isn't the forum to get into the politics / foreign policy issues. Feel free to take that up in PWEC, but be sure to observe the rules for participating in there.

Thank Cyberkut!

My reply was timed poorly and the thread was locked before I could post, so I saved what I wrote up and am replying now.

Sorry to hear what happened to Force10, I wish you the best in the wake of such a loss.


Well nothing is stopping them from tampering with the vote, I just don't see why they would. Yes, the way they took over the vote was a little weird, but also practical. The original vote thread was supposed to be just a vote anyway (Monnie Rock can confirm), so the loss of the thread component shouldn't be a big issue.


The first I can find is c0ff and Wags replying and saying that the grace period is currenly 3 days

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3306825&postcount=107


Well, from the outside looking in I'll try to avoid making too many assumptions. They might have been a bit overzealous with the 3 day time limit, but I'm glad that they're open to extending it. I'd be most glad if the DRM didn't change, but that's not happening.




Your post was mentioned as being partially off topic for this section of the forum, so I won't address in detail. I agree that ED's forum moderation can be a bit strict, though it really has gotten better. People don't get banned for disagreeing, they get banned for bringing up things that ED does not want discussed. At least that's what I see. Like I said before I've disagree with ED in the past, even moderators. I've never had any action taken against me. ED can set the rules for their forum, so whether you think they're too strict or not they're not overstepping any bounds.


EDIT

Oops it was Monnie's/kaboki's post that was off topic. My mistake.

I took Soldiers out because you are unable to see them as Individuals, as an employed Person/Persons, as Paying DCS Customers.

Once again, just a few examples that I ask you:

Why do you think their consumer rights do not exist or are less than yours?


Just a few things to think about that does not apply to everyone nor includes everyone that has purchased TFC/Eagle Dynamics DCSW Products.

Remember, Internet connectivity is a privilege, not a right



Paying DCS Customers:

A Person or Persons that have legally purchased, activated DCS Software which is installed on a Mobile PC/Laptop before arriving to said examples below.

A Person or Persons that use said Mobile PC/Laptop for Offline Single Player without connectivity after their work shifts.

A Person or Persons that uses said Mobile PC/Laptop for Offline Single Player without connectivity at their Vacation Homes.


Workers:

A) Paying DCS Customers that are working in remote locations with limited to no connectivity, providing Hurricane / Natural Disaster relief to rebuild the nonfunctional infrastructures that provide these commodities. (Power,Water,Telephone,Cellular,Etc.)

B) Paying DCS Customers that work in land development in regions with limited to no connectivity, to create the first infrastructures that provide these commodities that are not present. (Power,Water,Telephone,Cellular,Etc.)

C) Paying DCS Customers that work in Offshore / Remote Mining / Drilling of Natural Resources in regions with limited to no connectivity.


Customers:

A) Paying DCS Customers that have vacation homes in regions with limited to no connectivity, that nonfunctional infrastructures are being repaired by Workers due to Hurricanes / Natural Disasters. { See A) under Workers}

B) Paying DCS Customers that have vacation homes in regions with limited to no connectivity. ( Ski Chalets, Hunting / Fishing Camps, Hiking and Mountain Bike Terrain)

C) Paying DCS Customers that have vacation homes in Tropical / Caribbean / Island regions with limited to no connectivity.(Beach Homes, Resorts,etc.)

Summary
1) Currently, with the TFC/Eagle Dynamics DCSW Digital Rights Management. Paying DCS Customers: must have connectivity every 3 calendar days for Offline Single Player Modes. If connectivity is unavailable after 3 calendar days, the legally purchased AV-8B N/A VTOL module will not function in Offline Single Player Modes.

2) With the proposed retroactively applied TFC/Eagle Dynamics DCSW Digital Rights Management. Paying DCS Customers: must have connectivity every 3 calendar days for Offline Single Player Modes. If connectivity is unavailable after 3 calendar days, all legally purchased TFC/Eagle Dynamics DCSW modules will not function in Offline Single Player Modes.


3) Person / Persons effected by the current and proposed TFC/Eagle Dynamics DCSW Digital Right Management

a) Paying DCS Customers:(See above)

b) Workers:(See above)

c) Customers:(See above)


Proposal:

1) Paying DCS Customers: Once activated, use of legally purchased TFC/Eagle Dynamics DCSW modules will function in Offline Single Player Modes unlimited.

2) Paying DCS Customers: Will be required to re-verify legally purchased TFC/Eagle Dynamics DCSW modules to function in Offline Single Player Modes unlimited during the following.
a) Any and all connections when logged into username account.
b) Software updates
c) Software version changes including reverting back to prior versions.
d) Purchases of additional modules
e) Installation of previous purchased modules.
f) To process Clean or Repair functions.


LAN and Multiplayer are not part of the proposal because to function beyond activation connectivity is required. At such point the re-verify procedure would preform automatically being connected to the main server.

@ kaboki:
You never had internet interruptions before due to some "upgrade" that your ISP is conducting? A burst pipe or fallen tree somewhere messing with the cables that bring you your internet connection? Never moved house and due to some fk-up somewhere, you're not getting your new internet connection until two weeks from Friday? Never had a router go bad?

Sure, you may be able to post 24/7 now and connect to the internet on demand, but when you can't for whatever reason, not only can you not surf the interwebs, you won't be able to play with your DCS modules too if you've not logged on for more than 3/4/5 days...

See the issue now?



Exactly. What's wrong with what we have now? Why change the system? Why this new system in particular? Why do the change AFTER the release of the module? Why no word of the planned change PRIOR to module release? Consider these questions and you'll realize that not everything in this scenario is above board....




Read this bit again.....



Missed the point big time.



Then maybe don't participate in a thread where assumptions are made?



Again, who in their right mind thought this would fly? The people who thought of this and the people who okayed this are seriously out of touch with the real world. Just because they're open to fix it does not remove the fact that 1) they initially planned to make it 3 days and 2) they sprung this system on everyone without prior warning.



What an understatement....



Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there, and so any claims of things happening "that you don't see" will have to be assessed on the basis of evidence made by people making the claims.

As for overstepping bounds.... I've not posted in ED forums for years, and when I stopped, I was clean. Over the time when I was **NOT** posting, I managed to get a 40% warning that does not expire. Not overstepping bounds? How do you explain that?

They had rule 1.13.... and just because they've removed it now does not mean that what happened before did not exist nor does it excuse them for what actions they did and used 1.13 as an excuse.

So while you may be fortunate enough not to have any actions done against you for your posting habits, please do not make it seem that your experience is the norm. When certain posts are prefaced with "Please don't ban me but....." and when moderators push forward the excuse of "it's not what you say, it's how you say it that gets you banned", well, something is wrong with that picture.

Sorry for your loss, Force10. Please take all the time off you need. We'll do our best not to blow up this forum while you are gone, but even if we do, I'm sure we can rebuild and worry about that later.

Prayers and positive thoughts sent your way. God bless you and your family.

I addressed that, they don't have anything to save face over.



Why? I can just not make assumptions.



1) and 2) are right, but I never tried to remove them.

I don't like the new DRM, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's out of touch with reality. It will work absolutely fine for the majority of the time. The issue is that it's very harsh system for extreme circumstances. ED way underestimated how important those off circumstances are to many.





Of course, there are things I don't know. I can't act based on those things. I don't have any explanation for your 40% warning accrued from posting off the ED forum, but that does sound very excessive.



I'm not familiar with the rule numbers, so I don't know what 1.13 refers to exactly. I do agree that forum moderating was very heavy in the past there.


I'm not worried about posts that start with "Please don't ban me", that doesn't necessarily speak to the nature of the forum. From what I see, it's not really warranted either. I've only seen so much though.

Offcourse i can see soldiers as individuals, but when you started talking about my freedom and all the patriotic BS, I kinda snapped and it all turned to politics... sorry about that.

Nah, the soldiers have plenty off time playing the game when they get home, people on vecation, camping, fishing lodges, maybe should do other things than being glued too a computer screen, after all its vecation, get out, do something meaningful on your vecations, plenty of time to play when your home. Also, dunno but I pretty much have internet connection trhough cell my phone anywhere in the world when i travel, even in Africa....

These days i find it very hard to really get offgrid, its like the internet is everyhwere these days, even in the bush...

Having internet today I would say is obligatory just to survive in this modern world, if i loose internet, i cant pay my bills, cant use my bank, cant do my taxes, cant get my mail etc etc etc, everthing is digitalized, atleast in my part of the world

To ICE, when i loose connection and cant play games(i only play online) wich hasnt happend too me the past 5 years, then I do something else and it actually feels good to get away from technology sometimes, doesnt bother me at all. There will always be time to play DCS again, its not like its going anywhere...

one way to get rid of all this activation hassle is to delete DCS from your HD - you only need to do it once.

Ah, yes of course.... because this 3-day DRM thing is going exactly as planned, alongside all their other projects that are going exactly as planned. Absolutely nothing to save face over.



Good luck with that then.



You don't think it's out of touch with reality? You think it will work fine for the majority of the time?

assumtion
noun - a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

It's a reasonable assumption, sure, but you just said you will not make assumptions.

Having pointed that out, why wait for a "suxx to be you" moment when there exists the possibility and technology now for games to be verified but still be playable offline for an indefinite amount of time?



I'm glad you acknowledge there are things you don't know..... so maybe it's best not to make blanket statements like "people don't get banned for disagreeing... at least that's what I see"
As for my 40% warning, it is rule 1.13.



Google is your friend. I'm sure you do know this though since you know where to go and how to cite other rules like 1.10.... rule 1.13 has cropped up often enough in the past that I'm surprised if you've genuinely not heard of it.



The damn post starts with "please don't ban me...." and you're not worried? If you acknowledge your limited forum exposure, then acknowledge the fact that if statements have to be prefaced with statements like these, something **IS** wrong.




I'm glad it doesn't bother you at all. Maybe ED should implement this DRM for all your modules, but just because it's okay for you, please try to use some empathy for other users who may not have other hobbies or only have limited free time which has now gone to waste even though they are not at fault.

Soldiers have plenty of free time when they get home? What about their days off during deployment? People go on vacation? What if Dad just went on the lodge to spend time with is family and nature during the day, but wants to learn some new system on his favorite aircraft for an hour or two each night? What if they get to the lodge and find out that the satellite dish which brought internet to the lodge has been damaged by a fallen tree and there's no replacement to be bought nearby?

But it doesn't bother YOU so it must be okay, I guess....

Well,

Been reading through the Russian side of the ED Forums. Not going to well over there too. Equal or even more displeasure than the English side.

Boy those Russians Feisty

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196824

My Russian is not the best but,

No mention of piracy so far . Chizh has been stating the reason is to make some kind of flight log book with stats. Kind of like the Battlefield crap to show off "You are a hero,rank,medals,kills.etc" junk.


Here are two things you can take as you want from that forum.




The question by -Slayer-

Answer from USSR_Rik ED Employee

Wait, so they aren't saying it's about protecting ED from piracy, it's to make a 'log book'?

LMFAO

that is not what GGTharos wrote



he is closely associated with the developer team so he should know.

According to GGTharos the main concern is piracy, somewhere in our discussions it was mentioned that they also will collect "anonymous" information about the owner, but that is a secondary reason.

Thanks for that link to the Russian thread

Ran some pages of it thru google translate and have been PMSL this morning

eg

Now, as the user read what he wrote .....

I think the goosebumps will be ridden by a rally and a brutal march. 3 days .... sounds just like a sentence.

He might have said that but, his forum account shows no affiliation to TFC/Eagle. So, when it comes time for ED/TFC to back up that statement, the answer will be " He is not an official ED Employee"

Even TFC/ED have said in the past comments made by moderators " are not always official statements"

It doesn't matter. There's no need for this type of DRM for logbooks or whatever. DRM has one purpose: Digital Rights Management.

I guess you see it differently. It's not going as planned, but they reacted to the feedback given.



You'll have to find that quote. I said I don't want to make too many assumptions. I corrected the notion that not making assumptions involves not participating in the discussion. I never said I won't make assumptions. I don't see a point to word games.


Well not only that, DCS's existing DRM is great, like I said. I'm not arguing for the new DRM.



Not exactly a blanket statement with that qualifier at the end, but the point is I've seen enough to know that disagreeing with a mod does not lead to a ban by default. This makes me a little skeptical when people act like disagreeing is forum suicide.



I didn't Google it because you said it was removed, implying it's not in the current forum rules, which is where 1.10 is. I don't know what 1.10 refers to without looking it up either. Like I said, I don't have the rule numbers memorized.



I'm not worried because it seems a bit silly. My forum exposure is not limited, it's just not all encompassing. That goes for everyone. Those people that I do see banned usually do so because they disagree with forum policies or how ED/mods wants to handle a certain situation.

FYI

1.13. - Users using other public forums to spread damaging and false information regarding DCS and Eagle Dynamics will forfeit thier posting rights here.

and yes they did spell their wrong

OK thanks. You can look deeply and try to see the merit behind that rule, but it's kind of easy to abuse. Especially if someone isn't around to dispute the accusation, as Ice said occurred.

I guess you will downplay everything that does not fit into your version of reality huh? As to "reacted to the feedback," what reaction? Have they changed the 3-day phone home policy? Yes? If not, then all the "reaction" they've done is to throw out some words in order to "react to the feedback." I guess you will overstate everything that does fit into your version of reality, huh?

Besides, if you make a mistake then correct it, I doubt you should be given credit for fixing your mistake. This is not kindergarten. This is supposed to be a professional group of study-sim developers. Thinking that something like this new DRM setup will pass muster is an embarrassing blunder, and more negative PR is just coming their way when they don't really need more of it.



Sure... the quote is HERE.... and I even took a screenshot for posterity




Clear as day.



Yeah, especially when you're the one who made the boo-boo.



"Everything is great.... except when they're not"... let's try not to make silly comments like that and then claim not to want to play word games.



Please try to stay informed when participating in discussions.... I talk about rule 1.13 and you don't even bother reading about it, what it was about, and maybe why it was removed.... and then you say "people don't get banned for disagreeing"??



It is silly, but it has happened. So again, what does that tell you? Even if you've not experienced it or even if you've not "seen" it, it has happened.... and a simple Google search will show it to be the case. Had rule 1.13 existed for a while longer or if I had started speaking out against ED sooner, I have no doubt I would be banned from the ED forums for rule 1.13 violation, despite not participating in the ED forums. I think it was even Force10 or some other SimHQ member that got banned outright despite not posting in the ED forums..... so your limited exposure and experience isn't really a defense against anything.



Oh, please do explain the merit.... I guess some of us have not looked deep enough.

As for being around to dispute the accusation, you have it the other way around..... I got a 40% warning for posts I made OUTSIDE of ED forums... if ED wanted to they could send their reps or mods to those external forums to dispute what I've said, but they have not.... instead, they give me a 40% warning on the ED forums..... again, for things I've said on sites like SimHQ.

Damaging info? Perhaps, but the "damaging" is ED's own doing.
False info? Hardly. If it were false, it would've been easy to disprove.

Calling something broken because it is broken is damaging information, but it's not my fault that the item is broken in the first place.

BTW, in the two strikes (20% each) that ED have given me, none of it references the posts where I supposedly broke rule 1.13.

This has only been about my experience..... ask around, I'm sure there are more. Look up Noodle's and Snoopy's experience. Ask leaf about his. Then come back and tell me it's not the "nature of the forum."

They can't even keep their story straight? So if it's a logbook, then why will it disable the module if it can't phone home? If it is a logbook, can it not keep stats offline and just upload it online when it can, whether that is 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, or every 6 months? Such BS.

I really do not know -Ice. All I can say is. Not once in the Russian Language Thread when I did a search for member "Chizh" was there a mention of piracy.

And a lot of telling people " You should have internet, it's everywhere, it's 2017, blah blah blah" also "Who does that on vacation, Who plays Sims on vacation, Who vacations without internet blah blah blah"


What a person does on Their vacation is their prerogative.

A person's personal opinion is Their prerogative.

In no way shape or form, a person's personal opinion should dictate what another person should or should not do on Their vacation.

In no way shape or form, a person's personal opinion should dictate how or how not another person should live Their life.

I think if we look deep enough, we'll see how we are all "valued customers" by ED

You don't have many choices when it comes to picking a reality. You think what ED is unforgivable. You're entitled to your opinion.



OK, so I never said I won't make assumptions.


To try to stop the spread of false information. That's fine in principle.


Right. You were not on ED's forums, so not around to dispute the accusations against you.



Agreed.

[/quote]This has only been about my experience..... ask around, I'm sure there are more. Look up Noodle's and Snoopy's experience. Ask leaf about his. Then come back and tell me it's not the "nature of the forum." [/quote]
Even assuming that everyone you mentioned was unfairly banned, and I won't say yes or no without more info, that's still only a handful of people.

There is only one reality.


Where did I say that? I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth.


I ask you to clarify and you reply with "you're entitled to your own opinion"??? What kind of answer is that? Side-stepping.


I got your quote, got a screenshot, and you still won't admit to it, huh?

So I guess "so I never said I won't make assumptions" is now the same as "I can just not make assumptions". I now understand why you refuse to play word games


That's quite a stretch there. If it is to try and stop the spread of FALSE information, a lot more people would be banned


Wrong. I was not on ED's forums, so why should I get a ban or a warning on my ED forum account? Why does my statements or actions or opinions on another site affect my posting rights on ED forum?

Wrong. Even if I can dispute the accusations, there was no reference to which posts I've made on which sites have earned me the warning, so how can I dispute it?


You are not willing to assume that people were unfairly banned or not, but you're willing to assume it's only a handful of people? Like I said, you'll downplay what you can to make ED look better and then in the very same sentence, you will overstate what you can to make ED look better. I'm sure you can be less obvious than this, Exorcet.

I see it as a difference of opinion. You see the negative response to their original DRM announcement as something they would want to save face over. I'm not too bothered by their original choice of 3 days given that they're willing to review that decision.


Sorry, I just got the feeling that again we're not understanding each other so I just wanted to move on. Like I said above, I'm more interested in what they finally decide on with the DRM than their original announcement.


I was trying to agree with you on 1.13 being unfair. You were accused of saying things that violated the rule and never contacted about it, so it ends up as a way to just ban you for anything. They should have responded to your claims with corrections if they were false. It would be good for them by correcting false information, and good for you if your claims were actually false because then you could correct yourself. We agree on that right? 1.13 shouldn't have been and it's good that it's gone.




Don't forget that I still have my own forum experience. I've not seen people banned simply for disagreeing. You can point out that it happened to a handful of people, but that doesn't make it the norm. You'd have a case for poor forum moderating with just 1 case of unjust banning, but that wouldn't make it so that disagreeing with ED is an automatic ban.

Ah that's what got me banned.....or what was used as the description to ban me.....reality was replying to an ED moderators comment after throwing shade in my direction in these very forums....hey Skate. Proof as Ice said in a previous comment that disagreeing with a moderator either here or on the other side of the hill will see you banned Exorcet

oh they are always around....."looks at Sobek, Skate, Nate and co"

I got banned and my post deleted for saying RRG deserved some credit for the 109k4 when everyone was patting ED on the back. RRG started the 109 and whose to say how much of EDs time it took to finish it. Judging by the pace of the other WW2 aircraft I would say the majority of the 109 was completed before ED fired RRG.
It was petty and a whitewash.

My post on the ED Forums stating what I found in the Russian Language Section of the forums New DRM Thread.

The first response to my post was " Yup" from Sithspawn. Does "Yup" confirm my statement as true?

My Statement: I could not find any post(s) from Offical ED Personnel stating the "First" and/ or "Primary Goal" purpose of the new DRM is to combat piracy/fraud.

So after Mods saying all the doom and gloom about piracy / fraud / stolen accounts / credit card fraud, ED losing money, etc. Which is it?





My Post. My Post

Russian Forum Discussion on new DRM: Russian Forum DRM Thread

There's cracked versions of the A-10C and Black Shark that have been floating around since around 2010, but other than those 2 not a single module has been bypassed in 7 years. A few stories of people abusing the current system with refunds but other than that not a thing.

If anything ED are opening themselves up to "true" and regular piracy, I think crackers gave it a wide berth in the past because of StarForce, a new DRM opens up new possibilities, Denuvo gets bypassed within hours of a games release, what makes this new (currently unconfirmed) DRM so special ?

I also heard ED are working on a new weapon to combat forum criticism..still needs work....alpha state of course




It's not all bad by some accounts:

I agree, not bad at all. Those features might attract new customers as well as current customers to purchase more modules.

A few questions to ponder:

Do those new features over weigh infringement on consumer rights? 3 Day off line play then software stops working?


If this was the plan, and the development moving forward, why not just say that in the first official post by Wags on the New DRM?


Why all the old Soviet Block Disinformation Protocol of the doom / gloom that ED is losing so much money from piracy / fraud / credit card fraud / account hacking, etc. justifying the new DRM?


Had I not cross-posted that information in the English forums, would they have finally mentioned it? Seems they are able to talk about it now I forced their hand.

Justifying the new DRM with chaff and flare to lessen the blow...standard protocol.

The new DRM may "allow" for such features, whether we get them remains to be seen.

Poor Sith, he's taking a battering on the ED forums in that DRM thread as he contradicts himself and then tries to cover his blushes.

It's gone from an insignificant poll, to insignificant customers....the all important log-book and now back to Starforce because no one in ED knows how it works and yet the new DRM is clearly a lot better....possibly......Just maybe.

Skatezilla too

As I posted in the ED forums...it's scary the amount of control they would have. They could suspend or revoke your ability to play your purchased game with the flick of a switch. It gives me an un-easy feeling given their rigid stance towards customers at times in the past.

I guess we'll see...

::::In heavy Russian Accent:::::: Comrade Force, you have done us great disservice with your comments on our forum and other forums. Effective immediately You are locked out of your modules until you can improve your worship

I hope they read this thread on SimHQ (they probably do in the hunt to ban users who speak negatively about them)......It's almost laughable....Sith was ridiculing people and using the same condescending tone that we're all familiar with in the first 30 pages and couldn't see a problem with the 3 day authentication window yet he suddenly defends servicemen in one of the latter pages.

It's that level of short-sightedness that ED and their mods have that causes all this trouble in the first place.....they just cannot see the woods for the trees. It's taken 40 pages of a thread for them to finally realise what the customers concerns are......but at that point the customers are labelled insignificant and they state the poll is next to useless anyway!

It's no wonder they consistently fail. They should really add an 'F' into the 'DCS' abbreviation somewhere.

personally I find the idea of having to worry about activation reason enough to delete the whole thing, who wants to worry every time a game is run if the developer servers are online or not.

The mods are in full on damage limitation mode there and tying themselves in knots doing it!

Same thing with console games though, and, AFAIK Steam. So not entirely a new thing.

My highlight in this ED forum thread:

"It's protection for ED and even for us." https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3307248&postcount=219

So the new drm system is there to protect us, the user!

It's not as much of a concern from big name folks that understand customer relations...that especially includes customers that are critical of their product. ED's track record is a little hazy on this subject and have had more of a hardline banning approach in the past.

In the wrong hands...this type of control can be hazardous to the consumer.

Go ED for protecting the little man !!!


Not !!!

Sorry but as this point this is just sheer paranoia. Fine, I get the slippery slope but on the other hand, I don't believe that ED would do something illegal - at the very least, it isn't in their own interest. And I think you'll find a bunch of people who believe that Steam doesn't known customer relations either. Your viewpoint is provably biased.

You might not like the guy who sells you stuff in the corner store, but you'd have to be a particular kind of person to think that he's come after you and take away the stuff you bought from him just because he didn't like your face.

Ghost, you've mentioned that an action of sorts that ED has taken isn't in their own interest on at least two occasions now! The multiple development streams aren't in their interest either, it was a poor decision and has caused absolute carnage...most of which is probably to the detriment of ED and 3rd party resources and funding.
The 'argument', if you want to call it that that ED don't make poor decisions that aren't in their own interest holds no weight whatsoever, there are an absolute boatload of other examples that could be used as well but they've been done a million times over.

Let's be honest, the only valid statement I've ever seen from ED or the mods over on the ED boards regarding Starforce is that it is expensive which is probably quite true.....however, lets not pretend for one minute that the expense isn't passed onto the customer with every paid module either. If ED have concerns that Starforce isn't providing the necessary protection then they've waited a long time before doing anything about it.



The ED message boards take away your posting rights if they don't like your posts, but still allow the same person to continue to buy their modules........and that's different because?

\o I know! I know! It's good for them!

You know that companies will typically go after stuff that makes them money now. It's easy to say that this is short-sighted when you're sitting on a high-horse, but in the real world you might flat out need to do this. This results in doing things for the sake of delivering on time. And probably not having time to refactor either. Your point is easy to make from a philosophical, theoretical, or well funded point of view. I'm not going to argue against your credentials, I'm sure you're as big as you've implied and that you know what you're doing - see, I completely agree with the theory of what you're saying. I try to push the exact same stuff where I work.

Where I disagree with you is that you're connected to how software is developed in the majority of the world. If all of this stuff runs so smoothly for you, I'd say you're in luck; you had the people (above and below) and the funding to get things set up right. Congrats, I really envy you.



I don't see why their internal development wouldn't suffer the same delays that we see for the modules we want to buy. I don't think such a switch is trivial and it's not the only thing they're working on.



You don't buy access to the forums. You don't even have to own the product to be on the forums. You're really being disingenuous here.

ED hasn't been burdened with having to meet any release dates as far as us...the public is concerned. As far as I can remember...they haven't given us a hard release date in years. Maybe their private contracts get this luxury...and the fixes/modules we are waiting for probably get pushed out IMO.

I am envious of ED though...I work in a vaguely similar field with 3D models/animations for high end clients. We don't just get to take as long as we want on projects...we wouldn't have any clients if that were the case.

When you are the only show in town you can get away with acting like a dick

I am waiting to hear,

"Initially we announced 2.5 merge being released in the 'coming weeks' has now been delayed as all man power has been diverted to the new DRM controversy that, was not even about piracy in the first place, to satisfy our valued customers"

You're right, ED has no contract with you to deliver to you something on a given schedule. Lay out some significant cash on the table, commission them and things will be different. I don't know why you're trying to imply that something else is going on.

An interesting couple of points, but I'm not sure how the dimensions of my horse comes into this. The only pressure ED created to deliver multiple dev streams came about because of their own inability to deliver what was 2.0 (at the time) on time. When they split the development into two distinct paths at that point in time it was only because they were already 4 years late and needed to get something released to keep the wolves at bay and even then only managed to delivery partial functionality across each branch compared to what was their stated intent. It's funny that you mention the real world because funnily enough, I work there........

Does everything run perfectly? No.
Do we come across problems? Yes
Do we learn from our mistakes? Yes

See the similarities with ED....the first two examples of course, it's the third example in bold red font where ED and the company I work for are worlds apart.



You have big kahoonas to mention ED and 'delivering on time' in the same post. It's beyond comical, it's beyond laughable. If you don't have time or if you suddenly need to refactor then you haven't planned it properly in the first place or identified the potential risks. 'Refactoring' hasn't just happened once or twice with ED, they constantly move the goalposts........it's a clear example of bad planning, there really is no argument.



So you should understand it then.....it doesn't matter if the project or game is worth $500 or $500m, the company will not entertain something that isn't viable and won't turn a profit - but it's all still relative and it certainly isn't just philosophical or theory based. Having funds and identifying areas of risk is only a small part of it, mismanagement, wasting resources, feature creep and not following logical integration processes or deviating from the intended road-map (if they even have one, there is very little evidence) and milestones are some of the key areas that ED just can't get right, they deny they fail and consistently continue to get it wrong.....that's incompetence right there. Failure to rectify the problem is incompetence and no other developer comes close to continually failing like ED does. How come other developers can do it? How come other developers do learn from their mistakes? Why do ED refuse to budge from their stubborn ways?



You talk about it like these activities from the requirements and design stages through to successful delivery is akin to a stroke of luck. It's not, and believe me if ED and the mods want to boldly claim they have been cracking the whip for 27 years or whatever it is then they have absolutely no excuse to consistently fail like they do at every corner. ED have no excuse in not being able to set up a project, plan the development, integration, testing and delivery of the engine or a module correctly when it is their core business. It also looks like you're trying to put the blame into that tiny, teeny little part of the world in which ED operate from - now that's weak....and again, there is no excuse they have had 27 years to learn from their mistakes yet they haven't taken the opportunity to rectify a single one. Hows about then, that ED start developing software like the 'majority of the world' do, and move away from the bubble of utter incompetence and the failure model in which they currently operate in? And again, if ED haven't got the right people in place (above and below) after 27 years then lo and behold there's yet another example of utter incompetence.

So much potential, yet not one iota of it realised. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Upon deeper reflection, I have come to realize you are 100% correct. Why would ED want to save face over this? Since when have ED cared about the customer? Trigger-happy on the ban-hammer, rule 1.13, taking away the ability to sell/gift our old modules, etc.... clearly they didn't care about their "face", so why should they care now? I apologize for my confusion on the matter.



I'm sure you wouldn't mind ED releasing broken modules given that they're willing to fix those modules.... I'm also sure you wouldn't mind how long ED takes as long as they're working on it. Again, my bad. I totally see it from your perpective now and can appreciate why you would say such things.



Just like you move on when you no longer wish to defend points you were trying to make.... like admitting to saying things that you wish to backtrack on....



I'm not worried about false information... that does not come from me.

1.13 is unfair, correct. It was a way to ban anyone for anything, correct. 1.13 is gone now, correct.
Still does not erase the fact that it was there and it was used to it's fullest extent and sometimes even past that.



You wish to disqualify other people's experience and then come back here claiming your own has more merit? You've not seen people banned, sure. But have you looked? Tell you what.... try being critical of ED on ED's forums and we'll take a note of how long that lasts before you're banned. Up for the challenge?

Link please? Might be a fun read.



So far, I've not encountered a Steam game with a 3-day phone-home DRM, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Which games are 3-day DRM on Steam?



As has been pointed out, how is 3 dev streams in their own interest? How is banning people left-right-and-center in their own interest? How is releasing their core program years and years late in their own interest? How is releasing their modules years late in their own interest?



So if you forecast a development time of 2 years and end up making that product for a total of 6 years, that makes the company more money? Please do explain!



What have they released on time? As for refactoring, who made them do that? Was it not ED themselves?



And despite bragging about being in the business for 27 years, ED can't still do things right??



True.... they wish to silence your voice, but if you still want to throw money at them, who are they to silence your wallet? That would be rude!



You are correct, ED has no contract with us to finish anything within a given time. Apparently, ED has no contract with itself to finish anything within a given time

As for the cash, it is an assumption that military contracts pay up-front. For us customers, the cash is here waiting for ED to earn it. As I've been saying for a good while now, make a good product and ED may well start it's own mint --- but where is the F-14 Tomcat or the F-16 Falcon or the F-18 Hornet or the AH-64 Apache? Heck even with the Hornet, they don't seem to be in much rush to finish it and get it out the door ---- in fact, they've just admitted that they'll be significantly neutering the initial Hornet release!

Oh i dont know about that. If it wasn't illegal the kickstarter scam was pretty damn close.

Ah yes, thanks! Just wondered if you were referring to a different one. It is fun watching them squirm in a mess that is their own making.

Someone can't handle the heat and has resorted to "why are you even posting here?"

"Maybe you are better discussing it at the other forum, I hear you are having more fun there."
Lol. He's itching to use the ban hammer you can almost feel it. A couple of months ago that discussion wiuld have been closed and many folk banned. I guess there has been some progress there.

If they think they're not doing anything wrong, why are they trying to hide that they're gonna apply this DRM to all modules. Very, very clever to change title of the thread , now why wouldn't they want people to know that? Afterall it's very good professional DRM system which makes all better and everyone will be happy like little elves. They're misleading people intentionally to think that this only applies to Harrier module.

Originally we were talking about the 3 day grace period and ED hypothetically changing votes. That has nothing to do with their past mistakes. As for the DRM itself, it has not been implemented across all modules, and the module that it is included with is in Open Beta. I think it's fair to put the DRM in its own category based on these differences. ED shouldn't have rolled it out without any prior announcement or discussion, but it's not a concern or issue that they've left unaddressed for a long time. I can't say it won't become one, but it has not yet.

If you want to include existing issues, like module fixes, then I don't see how editing the vote will do anything for those issues.




There is no point if my explanations are ignored, that's the thing.



OK, I wasn't arguing otherwise.



Whose experience am I disqualifying? You've mentioned a few people that were banned unfairly, that can still occur while others aren't banned unfairly. You're giving me evidence for unfair bans, but not supporting the idea that disagreeing with ED is an automatic ban. I've seen people banned, just not for having a difference of opinion with a moderator. As for looking at past bannings, it's not always easy to determine what has happened given that posts tend to be removed.

I won't be critical for the sake of being critical, but if I don't like something that ED has done I might post about it as I've done in the past.

...maybe he'll just lock the thread instead...oh...wait.

They changed the title too? what was the original title ?

90 days for the win...see how they squirm out of that one.

Original title was "Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit" - it was asked why they changed it, but mods probably were too busy to answer that, I guess they were doing that .. what mods do when they're not answering questions.

If ED did goalposts:

. ^^^^^^^^^

And if they were advanced manufacturers, those wheels would be stealth'ed.

What a noob, posts one last dig at a customer then closes thread .....


Poll results preserved for posterity

Do I get a prize for being close to 50% when the poll got shut down? I can see it now, I think the prize will be a 6 month delay to 2.5 which was due in the 'coming weeks' but is it really any surprise the thread got closed?........the mods and ED were taking an absolute battering in there.....all of their own doing too. Short-sightedness and incompetence with flying colours once again.

343 voters in the poll, 367 votes ?

While we are on this. Do we believe luthier - who fronted the Kickstarter enterprise then mysteriously disappeared - is still involved with dcs ww2?

Part of me can’t help but shake the feeling he is. I’ve nothing to base that on though.

I think I've seen a bug where the forum forgets your vote and lets you vote again, but I have not seen it for a while. Although looking at the image, it says multiple choice poll. I didn't notice that before.

If ED did ballot boxes:

When I set up the Poll. I allowed voters to make multiple selections.

One could vote 60 & 90 days if so wanted.

There is a patch out today for :

DCS 2.2.0.12448 Full Change Log

Support of AV-8B by RAZBAM

Added procedure that collect all necessary files to ZIP for diagnostic. After game crash, will be started procedure that automatically collects debugging information: crash report, crash dump, track, log. If the user agrees to provide information about the system, then msinfo.nfo and dxdiag.txt files are additionally attached.


Added a gameplay statistics. If the user agrees for statistic collecting, the game settings and the type of the player controlled object will be sended to server. This information will be analyzed for further gameplay improvements.

No mention of the new DRM.


Kudos for ED for solving a bug I reported


The Multi-functional Display will not flickering when using SLI/XFire and Deferred Shading.

Polls closed now...

"Added a gameplay statistics. If the user agrees for statistic collecting, the game settings and the type of the player controlled object will be sended to server, their last played game, information about their hardware, surfing habits, full contact details, their mother's name, their mother's cats name, their father's cousin's friend's last girlfriend's best friend's brother's cousin's aunt's name. This information will be analyzed for further gameplay improvements"

El oh el. So true! I laughed so hard.
Still laughing

Remember, it's not that he didn't like the content of the posts people were making, he was having issues with the way those content were presented.

Now that they have an idea of what the community wants, let's see which one they'll pick and what excuse they come up with for picking that.

If ED did condoms:

Speaking of Kickstarters, do you remember the techniques used by certain ED forum users regarding the F-35? For someone watching political news lately, those sock-puppets who said they were F-35 crew chiefs from Yuma willing to send ED information about the still-classified plane reminds me a great deal of other Russian-American interactions of late.

Other Russian software efforts

Been weeks but no word from ED what direction they are gong with this .......

Give them chance.......they said 'soon', so that's about 12 years.

Denuvo DRM Cracked Again.. https://www.techspot.com/news/72871-latest-version-denuvo-drm-has-cracked.html

DRM = whackamole ..... and the person it hurts the most ...... the paying customer

leaf, what exactly are you saying about this DRM? Did you not read what Wags posted? This is world class copy protection!! Did you not read what the article said? Three months is a big achievement in keeping pirates at bay! World class!!