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The Arma M24 sniper

Posted By: Draven

The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 08:35 AM

I would like to share my thoughts and experience with sniping in ARMA.

First of all I would like to say that being sniper is not about getting the most kills. That should not be your goal. Your job is to scout the enemy and take targets of opportunity. The more you fire, the more your enemy may home in on your position. For this reason you should focus on the primary targets of 12.7 gunners, snipers and AT soldiers. These are the ones that can do the most damage at range to the approaching assault team. Save the others for later. Again, you are trying to keep your presence hidden for as long as possible. In real life you would make a shot and relocate in most situations. That is not always going to be possible in game. Your assault team will be depending on you to be in position.

Ideally you will position yourself at 500 or more meters to better conceal your position and sound from the enemy. Many times however you will have to be closer than 300 meters. In these cases you should be extra careful about making only the needed shots else the enemy will home in on you much quicker. At greater ranges your shots will take longer to hit your target. The M24 takes approximately 1.5 seconds to hit at 600 meters and about 2.5 seconds at 1000 meters. Take this in account when your target is moving. In a perfect world your targets will stand still, open their shirt and show you a bull’s eye.

I feel it is important that the sniper or sniper team be in position well before the assault team arrives on local. This way they can spot patrols and combatants and keep an eye on their positions.

The sniper team should be positioned away from each other, perhaps at ninety degrees around the target. This way they have varied fields of vision and fire. If two snipers must be on the same hill they should be on opposite sides or far enough apart that one grenade will kill both.

The M107 is a fantastic weapon but it is louder than a dinosaur fart. (I know this because we still have dinosaurs here in Texas. It was the only place large enough). This loudness gives much more opportunity for your enemy to home in on you at close ranges. The M107 is best used only at very long range for this reason. If you are going on a mission where you know you will be at close range, take the M24 instead. If you are going to be at 500 or less meters the MK12 is a nice weapon. At ranges greater than that its accuracy is unpredictable. Thus the M24 is a better choice if you are shooting a long and short range but the MK12’s high capacity and high rate of fire is invaluable for close encounters.

Below I have included screen shots detailing M24 sight picture at various ranges. The illustrations will show you how large a man will appear in the reticule at certain ranges. You can use this to determine how far the target is at what range. For instance, at 600 meters the enemy will be 3.5 pips tall in the reticule. To the right of that you will see that placing the reticule approximately 2.75 pips down will give you a chest shot.

I hope these are some aid in your righteous diplomacy.















Notice the image on the right shows a white dot. Just like the red dot there is not white dot on your reticule but is included here to give you a sense of distance on the bar.



The illustrations at 1200 and greater range show a red bar(s) in the image. The bar represents the length of half of the vertical reticule.






Yeah. You can make shots at 1600 meters. That is a mile for those non-metric people(1609 meters). A shot made at a mile places the target about an inch from the bottom of the screen.

For setting these up I placed everything on the large airport on the map, i.e. from Evolution. I was four hundred meters east off of the runway on a hilltop. To get 1600 meters the last guy is off of the far side of the runway and is actually slightly down hill.

I also made some videos of me taking each shot but I am trying to figure out where to host them. I used Fraps and turned the settings down and even though they are only about 15 seconds each they are 60 megs each.


Draven
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Burke"
Posted By: Nixer

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 10:37 AM

Neat Draven....great info.

But how realistic is a 1600m kill with a 7.62 NATO? I really don't know, that's why I am asking. But I do know someone who does, I'll see if I can get him to pop in and comment.

That's my biggest complaint with the M107...the reticule. With a different reticule on the 107's scope, you could really "reach out and touch someone".
Posted By: RSColonel_131st

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 12:07 PM

The problem isn't the reticule...the problem is that you can't adjust elevation and windage. Normally you wouldn't raise the crosshair above the target...

Thanks for the detailed description, Draven.
Posted By: Razorback

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 12:17 PM

Damn you! You just gave away all my secrets! Now EVERYONE will become a good shot.

Grrr.

;\)
Posted By: Wepps

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 02:01 PM

Great info, thanks Draven.
Posted By: joey45

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 02:53 PM

thanx... your first para is spot on.. [rant]everyone that gets the snpr rifles tries an gets the most kills.. DONT..the infantry do that, we scout..[/rant]

great work thanx Draven.
Posted By: Biff99

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 03:15 PM

Good stuff Draven. Screenshots and all.

Thanks!
Posted By: Rook_336th

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 03:48 PM

Anyone know if elevation and windage controls going to be added to scopes at any point? The M107 is a bit difficult to use being permanently sighted to 1000m right now.
Posted By: Razorback

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: joey45
thanx... your first para is spot on.. [rant]everyone that gets the snpr rifles tries an gets the most kills.. DONT..the infantry do that, we scout..[/rant]


Preach on!
Posted By: Draven

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 08:01 PM

The M107 appears to have the same magnification as the M24 or is practically the same for measurement needs so, you can use the screen shots above to tell how far they are from you.

Basically the M24 zeros at 300 meters (as it should) and the M107 zeros at 500 meters. (dont know about should on this one).

Oddly enough there are points where the two are very similar in how much to raise. Yeah. It would be nice to have elevation control like Land Warrior had in it. That game also had wind too but oddly enough no windage controls.

Range --M24 pips ----M107 pips --MK12 pips
200 -----¾ low -------2.5 low -------1 low
300 -----0 -----------------2 low ---------½ low
400 -----¾ high ------1 low
500 -----1 ¾ high ----0 ---------------1 high
600 -----2 ¾ high ----1.5 high
700 -----4 high ----------2.5 high
800 -----5.2 high -------3.5 high
900 -----6 high ----------5 high
1000 ----7.2 high -------6.5 high
1100 ----9 high ----------9 high
1200 ----9.7 high ------10.2 high
1300 ----12.5 high -----12.2 high
1400 ----14.5 high -----14.8 high
1500 ----15.5 high -----16.5 high
1600 ----18.8 high -----19 high

I definitely like the M24 as a weapon but I will say that at long ranges the M107 is more stable and easier to aim. Up close it probably does not mater as much. The MK12 allows you to put a lot of shots off into groups that are charging you (it happens) but it takes too many darn bullets to kill. I think they have that one loaded with .22 shorts.
Posted By: joey45

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/10/07 10:57 PM

deffently gonna make a range card for this one...
Posted By: Boopidoo

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/11/07 03:06 PM

I made this litte comparision chart from LuckyDanDravens numbers:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pAUV47gwZqUsUY2H8t6YLRw

I know that a true range card includes other information areas as well but I guess the range/pips/aim information is sufficient for the game.
Posted By: joey45

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/11/07 06:10 PM

similer too the one i done..

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=piLrMILDiHXsvGGDw2KadDg
Posted By: Razorback

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/11/07 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: joey45


There, I fixed it for you.
Posted By: joey45

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/11/07 07:50 PM

dont get what you mean RB..
Posted By: Brennus

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/11/07 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Razorback
Originally Posted By: joey45


There, I fixed it for you.

Look hard at the quote.

He fixed some grammer issues...

Posted By: joey45

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/11/07 08:00 PM

I cant help it im dyslexic... thanx RB
Posted By: Boopidoo

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/12/07 08:48 AM

I made these diagrams using the numbers given:

http://www.boopidoo.com/fajlz/ArmA-SniperRangeCard.htm


The "Scope Range Diagram" shows how the markers in the scope compares to the distance to target. Use this to obtain the distance to a standing target.


The "Range Elevation Diagram" shows what elevation you should use when you know the distance to target.


The "Target Size Elevation Diagram" is probably the most useful one since it shows the elevation needed directly from the target size.
Posted By: shan2

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/12/07 11:41 AM

Dan, they're mils, not pips. Mils are short for milliradians. There are 2000 * Pi milliradians in a circle. The Army and the Marines round differently, so their reticles aren't quite compatible with each other.

Plus, it's not physically possible to make an accurate shot on a man-sized target using the M24SWS at better than ~1200 meters because the bullet is no longer supersonic. The bullet wobbles a great deal when it slows through the sound barrier, dramatically increasing the spread (and group sizes) at that distance. You'll run into a similar problem with .22LR if you try to shoot it past 200 yards.

However, your article is good information on the game.
Posted By: Draven

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/12/07 04:41 PM

I assume most people here are not familiar, I know some are, with mils or minute of angle. For game purposes I have simplified the information as much as possible. Its a game. Why complicate it.

As far as "physically possible" to make accurate shots past 1200 meters, well I guess I will just stop doing it in game. The "point" being, its a game guys. If you can make a shot at 1200, 1400 or 1600 meters, well I am going to. Who cares if it is not realistic in the real world. I dare to say as well that most of you guys will never shoot anyone at that range anyway.

Again, I hope this information comes in handy for you guys in game. If any of you get busted trying to use this information in the real world, I will not take responsibility \:\)
Posted By: joey45

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/12/07 05:37 PM

thought it was 6400 mils in a circle or am i thinking of something caompletly differnent.

plus on what shan2 said, I believe no wind effects in ArmA. But on another note atlest they moddled the bullet drop.

Yes draven it is ONLY A GAME.
Posted By: Boopidoo

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/12/07 06:54 PM

Draven, I really appreciated the information. This gives me the motivation to take extra care when aiming and not just guessing. It's a new dimension that I didn't care to explore before.

So, thanks for taking the time to try this out and to supply us with information.
Posted By: Red15

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/12/07 09:05 PM

Are there real-life version of the M24 scope where you have that line scale like the Dragunov has ?
And if so boy would I like to get my hands on an addon to do this.

Also an addon which models the bullet going sub-sonic would be fairly easy to make once the right tools are available I think.
Posted By: Wepps

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/13/07 12:52 AM

I will be uploading Draven's Sniper Range Finder mission tonight, for those of you that are interested.
Posted By: shan2

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/13/07 02:01 AM

Originally Posted By: LuckyDanDraven
I assume most people here are not familiar, I know some are, with mils or minute of angle. For game purposes I have simplified the information as much as possible. Its a game. Why complicate it.

As far as "physically possible" to make accurate shots past 1200 meters, well I guess I will just stop doing it in game. The "point" being, its a game guys. If you can make a shot at 1200, 1400 or 1600 meters, well I am going to. Who cares if it is not realistic in the real world. I dare to say as well that most of you guys will never shoot anyone at that range anyway.

Again, I hope this information comes in handy for you guys in game. If any of you get busted trying to use this information in the real world, I will not take responsibility \:\)


I said it was nice information for the game. *shrug* I wasn't attacking you, but take it as you will. It's no skin off of my nose. The reason I stated that it was physically impossible to make accurate shots with a M24SWS past its ammunition's supersonic regime is because Nixer6 asked a question along those lines which I assumed was about REAL LIFE, not the game. There is only one confirmed kill at 1200+ yards with that particular type of ammunition from a sniper shot. Funny since that cartridge has existed for almost 100 years.

Anyway, your analysis is a good indication that ARMA probably doesn't model energy loss during flight to friction for any bullets. The thing that's weird is that I remember that Operation Flashpoint did model bullet deflection due to wind. I wonder why they wouldn't do it for ARMA since you'd have better tell-tales like grass and smoke than you ever had in OF.

About the longest real life shots I've taken are around 600 yards. The problem is that the bullet is dropping so fast at that range that (when you aim center of mass), you can have a clean miss pretty easily if you screw up your ranging by 50 yards or so. Luckily, every model in ARMA is exactly the same height, so range estimation is greatly simplified.

Simplicity is nice, but the reason that you should explain what mils are is due to the fact that it represents a portion of an arc which will always be constant. So the distance between the mils will be 3.6 inches at 100 yards, 7.2 at 200 yards, etc. That's basically why it's so useful for ranging and as elevation/windage hold-over references.
Posted By: Dart

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/13/07 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: joey45
thought it was 6400 mils in a circle or am i thinking of something caompletly differnent.

plus on what shan2 said, I believe no wind effects in ArmA. But on another note atlest they moddled the bullet drop.

Yes draven it is ONLY A GAME.


Correct! 6400 mils - 1 mil at 1000 meters = 1 meter.

The Soviets used to use arshins - and there are 6000 of them in a circle.

Now, then, a sniper's scope is a really odd thing. From center of one "pip" to the center of another is one mil. From edge to edge along the line it's three fourths of a mil, and each dot is a quarter of a mil thick.

No apologies for "pip," as it's just a dot on the line to mark radians. I like it.

The really cool part is we can determine how tall our AI friend is if the range is right - or, alternately, find out his range if we know his height!

Let's assume the range is correct - one thousand meters:



Our guy is two pips tall...er, actually, he's one and seven eights - the pip itself is a quarter mil thick, and the top of his head is at the bottom of the pip.

So, two pips at a thousand meters = 2 meters. Or, to be pendantic, 1.87 meters tall. At 6' 1" tall, no wonder they slump over behind the wheel of a UAZ when shot - their legs are all crammed up under there!

But we're giving him full credit for boots and helmet. I'm betting he's more like 5'9" in his sock feet.

Four pips is twice as many mils - four - which means he is five hundred meters away.

Btw, yards and meters are used almost interchangeably when talking mils, as at a thousand yards one mil equals - get this - one yard. And since we're also talking about hitting a human sized target within an error range of six inches (15 centimeters) diameter from the center of his chest it really doesn't matter.

And it's why I prefer Artillery. 10 mils is the smallest unit of mils us Forward Observers will talk in without blatantly showing off. Why kill one man when you can kill thirty?

\:\)
Posted By: Wepps

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/13/07 08:12 PM

Okay guys, I've got Draven's Sniper Ranging mission hosted on my site: Download it here:

http://www.weppsarmamissions.net/SniperRanging.zip


The range uses live RACS soldiers as targets \:\) But don't worry, you can repopulate them whenever you like.
Posted By: Draven

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/13/07 09:01 PM

I actually appreciate the info shan and dart. Good stuff. I wish Arma had that kind of detail for doing stuff like this but I guess if they put that much into it the game might must be called Sniper Assault, because they probably would not have the time to code anything else.

"How could they cut the power, man? They're animals." Hudson
Posted By: shan2

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/14/07 12:15 PM

Funny you should say that. I just got a copy of Alien versus Predator 2... Man, those face huggers creep me out... \:D
Posted By: Vertigo1

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/16/07 09:41 PM

This may of interest to some folks.. \:\)

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ik...ST;f=70;t=65706
Posted By: NooB

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/17/07 06:32 AM

I tried to come up with a formula that will make it easier to know where to aim. I took your measurements and made a diagram (mils down/target size in mils), but the screenies you posted with the numbers and all are not very accurate, so it didn't come out too good. Once I finally get my ArmA, I'll do it myself and let you guys know \:\) (With all do respect, Boopidoo, 7580.2x^-1.2012 isn't very usable. Not to mention the data isn't very accurate there ;))
Posted By: Nixer

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/17/07 03:54 PM

Interesting development, someone has come up with a little addon so that you are able to adjust windage and elevation!

Here's the thread at The Official BIS Forums

Just skimmed it myself, but it seems like it works.
Posted By: Vertigo1

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/17/07 04:05 PM

you're a little slow on the trigger there nix ;\)
Posted By: Nixer

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/17/07 04:21 PM

oops.......I missed something???

Busted skimming again?

and I thought I was being helpful...............
Posted By: Draven

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/17/07 07:02 PM

Shan said:
Funny you should say that. I just got a copy of Alien versus Predator 2... Man, those face huggers creep me out... \:D
_________________________


Wepps and I had some of the most fun games ever playing Aliens versus Predator 1 on the maps where you have to defend against waves of aliens as you try and make it across the map. I think the best moment ever was when and alien jumped on Wepp's head as he stood in a corner, I turned and gave the alien "multiple" perforations, after which it bleed acid all over Wepps and he died....

Draven
Posted By: NooB

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/21/07 11:42 AM

Well, like I promised. I created a little test mission in the editor, placed one of those pop-up targets half a meter in the air right next to a soldier so they had the same height, and started sniping. I'm too lazy to upload the screenshots, so I'll just type it out.

200 Meters
Target size: 11 mils.
Aim @ +1 mil.

300 Meters
Target size: ~7 (7.2) mils.
Aim @ +0 mil.

400 Meters
Target size: ~5.5 (5.3) mils.
Aim @ (-1) mil.

600 Meters
Target size: 3.5 mils.
Aim @ (-2) mil.

800 Meters
Target size: ~2.5 (2.7) mils.
Aim @ ~(-5) mil.

1000 Meters
Target size: ~2 (2.1) mils.
Aim @ ~(-7.5) mil.


After doing some math and rounding some stuff up for easier use (if you can even call it that.. you'll see why) I came up with those two formulas:

200 - 600 meters: mils = (target size in mils - 8.5)/2.5
600 - 1000 meters: mils = (target size in mils - 4.1)/0.3

They are very accurate and quite simple, but those are some nasty numbers to calculate fast in your head unless you're some kind of genius. I guess we just have to either learn where to aim at every distance, fire once and see where it hits, or just have a natural feel for it. :P
Posted By: Vertigo1

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/27/07 06:23 PM

continued development:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ik...ST;f=70;t=66195
Posted By: NooB

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/27/07 06:31 PM

Hmmmm...
I bet that if you dig deep enough into the ArmA files, you'll be able to activate quite a few hidden VBS2 features. :O
Posted By: Smokedawg

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/27/07 08:25 PM

I am a decent sniper but I usually dont take shots at over 800km. A small tip that I use that works well most of the time is to line up the targets feet to the top of the solid black line (the bottom part of the crosshairs) on the scope. Works well on targets from 100-800km. Beyond that i usaully move for a closer shot, but that is based on my own preference.
Posted By: joey45

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/28/07 06:30 PM

km... dont you mean metres...
Posted By: Draven

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/29/07 12:00 AM

I'm glad to see everyone having fun with this post. I wonder if some of you guys are using a custom reticule to get more finite measurements? In my testing I just let the reticule float and measured the shots visibly; first by shooting at the red pop-up targets, and aiming at the very top of its head. This way I could shoot just above its head and bring the shot down until it hit the head. At that point I would make a note of the "approximate" location on the reticule. Again I wish the reticule had more and smaller measurements but this is what I made due with.

Has anyone downloaded the range mission to work with?
Posted By: Draven

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/29/07 12:56 AM

I was having a brain fart for a while but with some coaching have discovered a new website to post videos on. You guys should check it out some time. Its called YouTube. I think it could be a hit.

Anyway. I made some video files of the 300 to 1600 meter shots made on the Sniper Ranging mission which you can download from Wepp's link above. Here are the shots.

300 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7yhSvWxVak

400 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l8UFSvL_mA

600 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U75hHEuAaE

800 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTRr8bc8lwk

1000 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjUrpbQ8wD4

1200 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Lxu8jRbDc

1400 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJopq7ZQY4

1600 m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0DdOftxTbU
Posted By: Boopidoo

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/29/07 11:19 AM

Originally Posted By: NooB
I tried to come up with a formula that will make it easier to know where to aim. I took your measurements and made a diagram (mils down/target size in mils), but the screenies you posted with the numbers and all are not very accurate, so it didn't come out too good. Once I finally get my ArmA, I'll do it myself and let you guys know \:\) (With all do respect, Boopidoo, 7580.2x^-1.2012 isn't very usable. Not to mention the data isn't very accurate there ;))


Of course the equation isn't very usable. It's the equation that excel thought would represent a curve using the measured data. To me the curve looks realistic and it has helped me alot during sniping missions. Since the measured follows the curve very closely I think that the curve is very close to how the game simulates bullet drop etc. However the dramatically reduced precision due to reduced bullet speed doesn't seem to be simulated.

In regard to the accuracy of the measured data I think it's at least as accurate as it needs to be to aim the sniper rifle. If some of the measured data would be inaccurate it would stand out either above or below the curve. To change the overall change of the curve several data entries would have to be consistantly above or below the curve. I guess the true curve is somewhat different but not much so.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 07/29/07 01:17 PM

Draven:

I just watched the 1600-m test ... \:D \:D ... one word described the cold calculation of that shot ... N U T S !

It's amazing how you get your sight picture so fast. Good stuff.

.
Posted By: Draven

Re: The Arma M24 sniper - 08/07/07 07:17 PM

Honestly, Lionpride, I wish that shot represented 100% of my shots at that range. From a cold start I might hit that shot 1 out of 4 shots. I think with a better reticule it would be better.

I am going to do some testing on the modified elevation mod someone had posted here previously and see how good that is.

"Every once in a while, man makes a huge leap backwards. It is then that he trips in his own refuse"

Draven
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