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#3471822 - 12/11/11 10:32 AM EAW Gunnery and and related problems.  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,610
Knegel Offline
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Knegel  Offline
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Hi,

just wanted to offer some informations about how the bullet flight path, the convergence, the muzzle velocity etc are programmed in EAW and something about the related problems while making damage models and playing the game.

Ok, 1st how its programmed:

The gravity effect on the bullets is calculated correct, unfortunatelly bullet velocity dont reduce with the flight time(probably to safe calculation power).

The Rate of fire got reduced to 50% of the real RoF(probably to safe calculation power).

The target hitbubbls are just round. We have two per wing, Tail, Fuselage front, Fuselage center, Pilot.

In EAW1.2 we have just a dispersion for each gun, but no guns convergence.

In EAW1.28x we did dissable the dispersion on fighter guns, in favour to an Guns convergence(adjustable in x and z direction).



Now the resulting problems:

The missing bullet drag influence(reducing bullet speed) can cause different problems.
If we set the Bullet velocity = real Muzzlvelocity, the bullets dont fall down like they should and the time to target is so smal, the guns work almost like Laser guns.
If we take a MG151/20 with 800m/sec Muzzlvelocity, the bullet need just 0,5 sec to 400m and only 0,25 sec to 200m.
In real life the speed of the Bullets initially reduce extreme, on around 200m we have just around 60% Muzzle velocity, on 500m its less than 40%.
So on 400m distance the Bullets need around 1 second, not just 0,5 seconds.
Since the gravity calculation in EAW is correct, the bullets wouldnt have the correct time to fall down, so the flight path would we way to flat.
Here the flight path datas of the inner wing MG151/20 of the FW190A6 as example:
The Gun is located 1,1m below the Sightline, so it need to shoot upward to cross it.
After 125m the bullets cross the sightline.
After 350m the Bullets reach a highest point of 84cm over the sightline.
After 550m the Bullets cross the sightline again.
After 620m the Bullets are down to 1,1m below the sightline again.
So within 620m the bullets fly almost 2m upand downward.
Since even fuselage of a B17 is not 2m high, not to talk about a fighter, we have a rather smal space where we can hit a target by aiming right onto it.
With a constand Muzzlevelocity and so only 50% time, the flight path would be half as high and, what is most important, always within the size of a normal target.
Now we could say we just use 50% Muzzle velocity, but then the Bullets would be way to slow on short distance(30-200m).
So in EAW1.2 they did use around 83% MuzzVel and in EAW1.28e we use between 75 and 83%, depending to the guns.
This of course still lead to a much to flat flight path.
This flat flightpath and the to high bullet speed on long range is the reason why its rather easy to hit on very long distances(600m +), compared to real life, where such distances needed pure luck.(in EAW1.2 this was way more easy, cause the guns dont had convergence)
On the other hand, in EAW , wing mounted guns have much trouble to hit at short range, cause the bullets reach the sightline in around 250m distance, if we reduce this they would go 2 meters above it. So in 50m distance the bullets are still around 80cm below the sight line, so you have to aim way above the target to hit in such distances.

The reduced RoF of course cause to many space between each bullet, specialy while shooting with deflection this give unrealistic results, specialy when the planes have a smal number of guns.
For example the 8 brownings of the Spit1a or Hurri dont leave any space at all, but with the two 20mm´s of the Bf109E its pure luck to hit while shooting with deflection.

Here some calculations:
8 x Browning .30cal with a RoF of 20 Rounds per sec and a Muzzle Velocity of around 750m/sec.
So per gun there are 20 rounds in the Air on a distance of 750m. Since the guns always shoot in pairs, we have 4 shoot secquences.
So there are 80 Bullet pairs on 750m distance, so the distance between each bullet pair is 9,3m.
Since we fire with 50% RoF, our Spit/Hurri Bullets have a space of around 18,5m.
While shooting with a normal deflection of max 25 degrees, the target cant fly through this space without to take hits.

Same with the MGFF 20mm of the Bf109E:
2 x MGFF 20mm with a RoF of 8 Rounds per sec and a Muzzle Velocity of around 585m/sec.
So per gun group (we have just one)there are 8 bullet pairs in the Air on a distance of 585m, so the distance between each bullet pair is 73m in real life and in EAW we have 146m.
While with 73m and shooting with a normal deflection of max 25 degrees, the probability that the target fly through this space without to take hits is rather smal, with 146m this probability increase extreme.
With slow shooting Guns with higher Mizzle velocity its even worse.

The limited number of hitbubbles and their round form are another bad thing.

If we adjust the hitbubbles to fit to the wing height, we will have trouble to hit the wings while deflection shots. So we have to adjust them in a compromise.
In EAW1.2 the hitbubbles are around 8 times as big as the plane. In EAW1.28e the wing hitbubbles cover almost the wing span, only the wingtips are not covered. The Fuselage bubbles cover the fuselage from the rear, so between front bubble, center and rear bubble is a little space(not a problem).
So if you attack a plane strait from the rear, the wings are a to big target, with deflection the wings are to smal, but all over imho this is realy a good adjustment.


Dispersion vs Guns Convergence:
Long time ago(long before we had the code) i found out that the guns dispersion work more like a bullet hitbubble size.
Instead of reducing the hitprobability it got increased by increasing the dispersion.
This was so, cause the influence of the mistakes above(to big hitbubbles, to High Bullet Velocity).

When we got the code one of the 1st things we did was to work out a guns convergence. To be able to do this we needed some values in the already existing external files, to adjust the convergence for each gun. So we took the dispersion values, dissabled the dispersion in favour to the guns convergence.

The result was/is very good, cause without guns convergence wingmounted guns never could show their full potential on perfect shooting distance(around 250m), on the other hand on very long range the buttlets still did fly toward the target(rather easy long distance kills).

Ok, The last days i was working on the code again and i managed to introduce a bullet drag, so that the bullet speed reduce with the speed, resulting in a very realistic bullet flight path.

With this we can adjust the guns way more easy(realistic MuzzVel) and realistic. smile

Unfortunatelly it will last some more time until i did readjust all the planes to fit to this, but i can tell you, the result is great!!
On short distance its now way more easy to get a kill and on +600m it will be pure luck. smile

Greetings,

Knegel





If you think `thats close enough´, go closer, until the plane fill up the windscreen, then a short burst is enough!
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#3471833 - 12/11/11 11:34 AM Re: EAW Gunnery and and related problems. [Re: Knegel]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Rotton50 Offline
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Rotton50  Offline
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Posts: 4,859
Cape Charles, Virginia, USA
Ralf,

I don't know if you want to tackle another related problem at this time but there's also the issue that the sound of the guns firing is not connected to the tracers.

On the big slow firing guns like the 75mm cannon on the B25H the effect is very noticeable. I got around it by adding a long silence to the beginning of the sound file but the player has to hold the trigger button down for a couple of seconds before anything happens.

Just a thought.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#3471835 - 12/11/11 11:37 AM Re: EAW Gunnery and and related problems. [Re: Knegel]  
Joined: Aug 2001
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Knegel Offline
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Knegel  Offline
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Posts: 8,610
Hi Ray,

the delay between pushing the trigger and releasing the bullet cant get solved, but for big guns we already did introduce two more sounds(if i remeber right), so the sound files can get adjusted to start to play the sound at the correct moment.

Greetings,

Knegel


If you think `thats close enough´, go closer, until the plane fill up the windscreen, then a short burst is enough!
#3471852 - 12/11/11 02:09 PM Re: EAW Gunnery and and related problems. [Re: Knegel]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Rotton50 Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Rotton50  Offline
3DZ / campaign designer
Senior Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,859
Cape Charles, Virginia, USA
Ok, that's what I figured, no problem.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#3473615 - 12/14/11 12:06 AM Re: EAW Gunnery and and related problems. [Re: Knegel]  
Joined: Jan 2001
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LLv34_Doc_1 Offline
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LLv34_Doc_1  Offline
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France
Originally Posted By: Knegel

Ok, The last days i was working on the code again and i managed to introduce a bullet drag, so that the bullet speed reduce with the speed, resulting in a very realistic bullet flight path.


Great news Ralf !

Thanks a lot !

#3474161 - 12/14/11 08:15 PM Re: EAW Gunnery and and related problems. [Re: Knegel]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 34
Gatonegro Offline
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Gatonegro  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 34
I expect your great and excellent work very hungry
yep


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