Is it possible? In the campaigns (all of them), when my home base has two runways (a long one, and a short, fat one), ATC consistently clears me to land on the short, fat runway. Even if I hit the brakes as soon as I touch down, I still run out of runway. Is there a trick to this....it's really pissing me off.

On the rare occasions that I get to land on the normal runways, all I have to do is keep the nose up for aerodynamic braking and I stop just fine.

Landing at 180 knots with airbrake out applying wheelbrakes while pushing stick full forward I'm having no problem at all stopping way before taxiway connection.
Maybe you're having too high a landingspeed?

Sound like you got bad brakes on your jet!

Speedwise:

Keep the flight path vector on the spot you want to land (threshold) with your pitch (so with the stick;-), then make sure the green circle next to the HUD lights up with the throttle (basicly flying angle of attack about 14/16 degrees) if the "arrow up" lights up, increase power, if the "arrow down" lights up, decrease power...
Good luck!

Oden...I don't think 180kts is a correct speed even at max gross weight...I bet the DoD would like to have a chat with you regarding excessive brake wear during these tough economic times.

I'm not having an issue with my landing or approaches (as evidenced by the fact that I'm fine on a normal runway, it's stopping on a short runway. Last mission my landing speed was 177kts with 4500lbs of fuel, 4 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders. According to the velocity vector and landing bracket this was the appropriate speed/AoA for my weight. Immediately nosed down and hit the brakes upon touchdown and ran off the other end of the runway.

In this case, Suwon AB, the runway I was set to land on was only 6,940 feet, compared to the normal 8,430 runway that I'm perfectly fine with.

As I said earlier, when I land on the normal runway, I have no problem aerodynamically braking to ~100kts, then hitting the brakes and stopping before reaching a taxiway. On this other runway it's simply impossible, yet ATC constantly vectors me to this runway.

Here is what I have found out about landing speeds

First keep your flight path marker near the center of the AOA bracket --that will give you approximately a 12 degree angle of attack.

Then to maintain that 12 degrees it will depend on your total weight. A heavily loaded plane with full weapons and full fuel load will take 170 kts to maintain the 12 degree AOA.

A low weight aircraft with no weapons and low fuel will take between 135 and 140 kts to maintain the 12 degrees.

I never use air brake when landing --nothing wrong with that and I think they use it in real life --but I just do not need it. I am able to land and even with no aerodynamic braking I can stop in a distance no further than 1/2 way down the runway. If I was using a short runway I would use the air brake.

Aerobraking can be taken to excess and is useful mainly to save your machanic from busting his chops changing your brakes --- I am usually eating dinner while he is changing mine so I don't have a problem with that.

I'm slightly confused by this. I was told that the flight path marker should be at the top of the AoA bracket, and it should be in the middle when flaring, and that at 13 degrees you will have a tail strike (which used to happen to me all the time)--which means that if I maintain the flight path marker in the middle of the bracket, I only have 0.9 degrees of flaring room before my tail scrapes the deck.



I'm also confused by this, as the indicator to the left is always giving me different information than my AoA bracket. My AoA bracket says I'm OK, yet the green circle is never lit. When the green circle is lit, my AoA is so high I have a tail strike.

I think the tail strikes at 15 degrees of pitch and wheels on the ground.

I always fly a 3 degree path with the fpm in the middle of the bracket and the green donut lit up. This gives me enough room to flare for a soft landing. The exception might be at heavy weights, then I tend to touch down a bit hard, but since the kinetic energy at this point is high, getting it on the ground is important.

I rarely see approach speeds above 150kts after returning with 1000-1500lbs of fuel and maybe some AAMs left.

http://www.pantherden.net/home/content.php?12-Landing-the-Viper


great landing tutorial, night clarify some things and simplify the procedure. Good reading anyway.

The top of the bracket indicate 10 degrees AOA --the bottom is 14 degrees.

You can safely land at anywhere inside of the bracket. But the center is more normally suggested.

There has always been a basic argument concerning flaring. There have been several real life F-16 pilots who have posted on various forums in years past that they do not flare the F-16. One said "Flare to land --squat to pee" I think he was referring to Navy pilots.

It is not necessary in f4 to flare. Some do not feel comfortable not flaring and it does seem an unusual way to land when you first try it --but it works great. If you touch down without flaring you have to remember you already have a 12 degree nose up position when the wheels touch. If you flare you are adding several more degrees of AOA at the last second. I do not recommend that you do that.

Besides all that --- flaring causes you to use more runway than you absolutely have to. Pin point landings are normal and possible without flaring. Simply put your FPM on the spot you want your wheels to touch and it will happen. Short field landings become difficult when flaring is your habit. Altitude above you and runway behind you have no value and can be detrimental to your health and well being.

Are you sure? I just made a landing without flaring and I bounced about 20 feet back up into the air and it caused me to take up more runway (this time I kept the VV in the middle of the bracket and held the green circle on the left panel). Even when I flare I consistently bounce at least a little bit.

Landings in FSX were so much easier :P

Bill Dryden, a senior F-16 test pilot, wrote that's because the F-16's gear is unusually stiff:

Not true.

11 and 15, respectively.

The middle of the bracket (13 AoA) is the maximum for touchdown and optimal for 2pt aerobraking.

Also, you are not "adding several more degress of AoA" by flaring unless your technique is COMPLETELY wrong.

1 degree either way is not important. I always thought the top was 11 degrees and probably it is. But I checked it a couple of days ago with my panel AOA indicator and the best I could tell it was 10 and 14 ---just eyeballing it and that may not have been perfectly accurate.

As for not adding AOA if you flare ---I have to disagree with you. I cannot understand how you can lift the nose at the last second and not add AOA. However that is elementary --- the worst of it is wasting runway space --you will glide and the wheels will touch much further down the runway.

One problem that you can get into is not having a 3 degree glide slope.

If you push over from 2,000 feet at 7 miles you will be pretty close to 3 degree slope(again ---maybe not perfect but close enough)if you put the FPM on the edge of the runway. If --on the other hand you push over from 2,000 feet at 4 miles you will have a much greater slope value.

If you have much higher than 3 degrees you will probably bang down on the runway and it is a wonder you don't knock your gear off. If you follow the ILS glide slope bar you will have a 3 degree slope.

When landing there are several parameters that must be set up and followed correctly ---any deviation from one can cause problems.

The key word in my quote was "several."

A proper flare adds 2 degrees AoA - from 11 to 13.

The F-16 is not intended to use a 3 degree glideslope for VFR. That is why the dashed line is at -2.5 degrees and not 3.

Aaah, I was thinking about that another day. Thanks!

Lets paint the big picture guys ---the difference 10 or 11 degrees at the top of the AOA bracket --or a 3 degree glide slope versus 2.5 degrees is not very important in the big picture of things.

When a guy is bouncing to death after touching down or running out of runway any parameter that is 1 degree off is of no concern to him. Somewhere along the way he is not doing something right ---something quite deviant from the norm.

Perfect landings are few and far between even for the expert pilot --- so vary from perfect some from time to time (as we all do) but keep in mind the important aspects of landing.

Well...I would say that 0.5 degree does something to your rate of descent in terms of surviving the touch down. But there is of course something odd here.

Hi guys .
My opinion is through Falcon 4.0 Allied Force .
Well we have 5 types of double parallel runways : 02/20 L/R , 05/23 L/R , 16/34 L/R , 14/32 L/R (with orientation 136/316) and 14/32 L/R (with orientation 144/324). The first 3 types (02/20 - 05/23 - 16/34 L/R) have a long runway with landing length 7,670 ft. and a short runway with landing length 5,980 ft. The last 2 types (14/32 L/R with orientation 136/316 and 144/324) have larger runways and for reference keep in mind that all single runways have landing length 8,670 ft.
Now at some previous posts i saw that some Falcon pilots pay attention at their speed and try to maintain it near a certain indication . This is a big mistake and can confuse a Falcon pilot .
As you can see from the image below :

you need only 3 indications from the HUD to execute a landing approach :
The Flight Path Marker (F.P.M.) , the AOA bracket and the 2.5 degrees pitch ladder dive .
I use 2.5 deg. glideslope and not 3.0 for 2 reasons : 1) 2.5 degrees pitch ladder dive exists inside HUD so you can execute precise slope with it (3.0 deg. slope is estimated) and 2) with 2.5 deg. glideslope you are slightly slower than 3.0 deg. glideslope .
Now the procedure : Just put the 2.5 deg. pitch ladder dive over the runway threshold area or just after it (as at the above photo) , the FPM (Flight Path Marker) over the 2.5 deg. pitch ladder dive and simultaneously the top of the AOA bracket at the same level with FPM . Also you want your FPM over the runway centerline , as close as you can . You keep them and when it needs you do minor corrections to come to the above state .
At the above photo the FPM is slightly lower from the 2.5 deg. pitch ladder dive and the top of the AOA bracket is slightly higher of the FPM (NO PROBLEM at these minor differences !) .
The 2.5 deg. pitch ladder dive corrected with the move of your FPM (the stick up or down) and the AOA bracket with the thrust (engine +/-) .
In order to have a small or none bounce the trick is just when you are 20 ft. above runway (at your radar altimeter indication) then cut the engine to idle and the aircraft just droped to runway very smooth and also start to lose airspeed .
After that in the normal runways (with landing length 7,670 ft. and above) i always flare with 14 deg . just like the photo below :

and keeping not the gun cross touches the 15 deg. pitch ladder climb so you don't scrap your engine and when the airspeed drops to 80 knots then use the wheel brakes .
In the above procedure the air brakes are fully applied at least from the FAF fix (steerpoint) .
I never (mean NEVER) keep an eye at my airspeed at FAF steerpoint and after that !
I use this way many years and have no crashes when i return to land !
Now in the short runways when the aircraft touch down you must not flare and you must quickly drop the nose of the aircraft down and apply the wheel brakes . Of course i know that isn't right (to use the wheel brakes above 80 knots) but is the only way to stop the aircraft before runway end to this short runway .

So if you want try this method and tell me if you find it good enough to have an easy landing .