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#838043 - 08/12/01 05:28 AM 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  
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Well, with a full 8 aircraft flight, and 7 ships to sink, how can you carry enough anti-ship weapons to sink them all? Because you would normally require a number of HARMs on extrernal stations, plus a few A2A missiles. What's the solution? A nuclear air-burst? Considering the ship's naval SAMs will shoot down a number of incoming missiles, how can it be done? What is the best strategy here? Ideas? Thanks to anyone that can help!

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#838044 - 08/12/01 08:28 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  
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I fly missions like this in Multi player mode
even when I intend to fly alone that way, I can use re-arm and fly back out to the battle....
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#838045 - 08/12/01 09:01 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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There is / was a great thread about this on Fritzdog's site (sp?). Somebody there, forgot his name now, suggested using SLAMs instead of Harpoons.

I didn't believe it until I tried it myself - sure enough, the SLAMs get past the ship's defenses a lot better than the Harpoons! Plus they have a slighter longer range.

As I posted on that board, I don't think it is actually "realistic", but it sure works well in the game.

I'm guessing that since the SLAM uses IR for terminal guidance, as opposed to the Harpoon's active radar, the ships don't know they are inbound until someone gets a visual on them...then its too late!

#838046 - 08/12/01 09:07 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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In the game, it takes more SLAM hits than Harpoon hits to sink, for example, a cruiser.

Also, if I remember correctly, the final consensus was that it was probably a game "feature" (glitch ) that makes SLAMs less likely than Harpoons to get shot down by ships' countermeasures.

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Doc's Hypocritic Oath: First do no HARM?

[This message has been edited by 195th_Doc (edited 08-12-2001).]

#838047 - 08/12/01 10:34 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Interesting, Doc. I've not seen that yet. Usually it takes 3 Harpoons to sink a Slava, and I've done the same with 3 SLAMs. I thought the SLAM actually had a larger warhead?

My issue with it being un-realistic was regarding the target location - I would think that an IR terminal guidance weapon would have a rough time locating a moving vessel, after traveling 50+ nms from the launch point, without any other input.

But even if it takes more SLAMs to sink a ship, the fact that more get through the defences should still make it a viable choice right? Or is it just considered "bad form" to use it against ships?

#838048 - 08/12/01 03:43 PM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Key to using HARPOON is using HARM first. As written above, this much easier coordinate in Multiplayer with Human than making sure Wingmen use HARM on ships (sometimes very difficult!!) Usually some better luck with AI when order "ATTACK AIR DEFENSES" sometimes they will go after ship radars this way with HARM, but again, hard to coordinate who attacks which radar..

LOL, using SLAM probably not too much cheat!

SLAM use inflight radar as well as TFR, so even if TERMINAL guidance by IR or IMAGING, still probably fair! Extra stealthness against ship defense probably a little cheat, but pretend just upgraded HARPOON!

OT:
Have you read novels by James H. Cobb about future (2010?) naval combat? (Choosers of the Slain, Sea Strike, Sea Fighter). There, futuristic all purpose SSM/ASM missile used is SEA-SLAM. F/A-18 time frame is 2004, so maybe SEA-SLAM is a little early

c.

#838049 - 08/12/01 08:58 PM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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It's generally taken 4 SLAM hits for me to sink a cruiser, but that may not be a hard and fast rule of thumb. In any case, I use SLAMs instead of Harpoons against cruisers.

By the way, if I recall correctly, it's been acknowledged that the SLAM may have a bigger or equally large warhead in comparison to Harpoons, but in the sim, probably as a result of modeling, it tends to take more SLAM hits in order to produce the same degree of destruction that is produced with Harpoon hits. It was also thought that maybe the Harpoon, since it was designed specifically for ships, may be more likely to penetrate a ship's armor than would be a SLAM, so the Harpoon may have a greater destructive effect than would a SLAM even though they both may have about the same (or a SLAM may have a larger) size warhead.

If I'm remembering correctly, Hornit felt that in the sim the Harpoons were too vulnerable to ships' countermeasures, and I believe he seemed to have no problem regarding the use of SLAMs instead of Harpoons against ships in the sim (btw, I believe someone has said that in real life SLAMs can be used against ships). I believe he also concurred with the above statement that if Harpoons are used, it's wise to use HARMs first in order to get rid of ships' air defenses. (Correct me if I'm wrong with regard to your views, Hornit. )

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Doc's Hypocritic Oath: First do no HARM?

[This message has been edited by 195th_Doc (edited 08-12-2001).]

#838050 - 08/13/01 04:43 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  
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You got it perfect Doc I believe Harpoons are a bit TOO vulnerable, but the statememnt about HARM is also true. You need to use a coordinated SEAD effort to make it work. The SLAM is more stealthy in the sim than the Harpoon and gets through almost every time. I use a mix of Harpoon and SLAM. The Slam for the first shot and follow up with Harpoon after some damage is done.

Using the Slam like a Harpoon is pretty accurate really as its not too much of an extrapolation of current capabilities to use it as a fire and forget weapon similar to GPS bombs. It WILL be like this in the next few years anyway.

I dont think there is any modeling of hull piercing warheads or anything like that in the sim. Just maybe a slightly different size warhead I think. Not sure about all that though.

Hornit

#838051 - 08/13/01 04:52 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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RE: Using HARMS before Harpoons

I understand the reasoning, but that's like telling somebody they have to use a rubber band BEFORE they fire their rifle at the target!

If I can get within 20nm of the SAG to launch a gaggle of HARMs, I wouldn't really need an anti-ship missile with a 70+nm range in the first place!

RE: The SLAM having onboard radar - is that really true? I thought it just had GPS/INS for navigation, and IR for terminal guidance?

#838052 - 08/13/01 06:07 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  
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The Slam is a really good weapon. It has great range for standoff and the capability to carry many types of warhead. In the not too distant future I would wager good money that it will have GPS, IR, TV, and radar guided target acquisition modes. Right now it may not, but what I was saying is it is not by any stretch fantasy to "pretend"it has these capabilities for the sim.

As for the statement about having to get within 20 miles to use the HARM I have to disagree. You may be able to have the shooters (for Harpoon) launch from way off using the good standoff capability, but you are gonna still have to do something about the SAG's defenses in order for those 'poons to make it to their targets! Remember, in real life one flight isnt going to do all this stuff by itself. It would be a coordinated multi axis attack using jammers and lots of strike aircraft, and lots of SEAD aircraft, all working to coordinate the timing, so the HARMS do the job while the missiles run in to hit the ships.

Hornit

#838053 - 08/13/01 06:56 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Hornit,

I didn't see your post to Doc when I wrote about the gaggle of HARMs - must have been typing mine when you submitted yours!

I understand a real strike on SAG would be a BIG DEAL, my response was concerned more with just the sim - if I've got four harpoons and two harms loaded, and three other planes in my flight (with no other supporting flights), having to close within HARM range *before* launching harpoons seems kinda funny.

Interesting stuff about the SLAMs, though. Thanks!

#838054 - 08/13/01 07:37 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Hornit, the SLAM used in the sim is the AGM-84H, and according to the Jane's reference section, it has inertial with GPS guidance. When you said in your post that using the AGM-84H in the sim is not too far off from reality because it will in all probability also have radar guidance in the near future, were you saying that GPS guidance isn't effective or particularly effective against moving targets such as ships, but radar guidance is, and since the AGM-84H will in all probability have radar guidance in the near future, it's not unreasonable now to "pretend" in the sim that it has radar guidance such that it can be used in the sim against moving targets such as ships?

Just some refresher info for everyone from the Jane's reference section:

The SLAM used in the sim is the SLAM-ER, which is the AGM-84H, which has a 318 kg warhead (which is larger than the Harpoon warhead) and inertial with GPS guidance.

The AGM-84A is the Harpoon, which has a 222 kg warhead (which is smaller than the SLAM-ER warhead) and inertial with active radar guidance.

The Harpoon used in the sim is the AGM-84D, which has the addition of a GPS receiver. The program for the AGM-84D was terminated in 1993.

(If any of the above is incorrect, please correct it accordingly. )

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195th_Doc

Doc's Hypocritic Oath: First do no HARM?

[This message has been edited by 195th_Doc (edited 08-13-2001).]

#838055 - 08/13/01 08:09 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Doc, I believe in the game they both have GPS/INS, but differ on the terminal guidance. The Harpoon has active radar, the SLAM has IIR.

IMO, this would account for the SLAM getting past defences easier than Harpoon per above post.

#838056 - 08/13/01 08:52 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Kammak, in determining what models are used in the sim, I was going by the models that were listed on the Weapons Loadout screen in the game, and for the information/data/specifications regarding those models, I was using what was said about them in the Jane's reference section.


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Doc's Hypocritic Oath: First do no HARM?

#838057 - 08/13/01 10:25 AM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Your right Doc, the Harpoon doesn't have GPS, just INS.

[This message has been edited by Kammak (edited 08-13-2001).]

#838058 - 08/13/01 12:38 PM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  
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Geez guys, I just wanted a strategy! What to do! What to do! So I think it sounds best to lob a number of SLAMs into the SAG from 50 km, then have my flight spread out and attack air defenses with HARMS, then approach with close in weapons to finish 'em off. I'll try that. Maybe load up with 2,000 pounders. That should sink the Cruisers.

Final question, do you think the point of this kind of mission is to sink the 2 cruisers? Or ALL the cruisers AND the escorts?

Thanks for your help guys! And thanks Doc, for the Janes Reference research.

LD.

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Flying the friendly skies.


Once the shooting starts, there is no such thing as a fair fight.

You make sure you have the biggest weapon, you use it early, and you use it often.
#838059 - 08/13/01 12:53 PM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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HARM fly faster than HARPOON or SLAM, so strategy is to fire HARPOON/SLAM first from distance. Then approach to HARM range and fire HARM. Enemy has choice: Shut down radar to avoid HARM, and be vulnerable to HARPOON/SLAM or leave Radar on to combat HARPOON/SLAM and risk HARM.

Of course, timing is critical...LOL! Many times in HARPOON or FLEET COMMAND my timing so bad that I waste all my missiles!

c.

#838060 - 08/13/01 11:05 PM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Little Ditty:

Final question, do you think the point of this kind of mission is to sink the 2 cruisers? Or ALL the cruisers AND the escorts?
LD.


From a mission builder standpoint, you must only sink the lead ship of a given type to trip the mission success flag. But by the same token, you can sink EVERY ship EXCEPT the lead and it will result in a "mission failed". So the real trick is figuring out which ships to engage and which to leave alone



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#838061 - 08/16/01 12:51 PM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  
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Yeah, so that's the question. Does anyone know if the point of the SAG sinking is to just get the 2 cruisers? Or sink the entire group?

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Flying the friendly skies.


Once the shooting starts, there is no such thing as a fair fight.

You make sure you have the biggest weapon, you use it early, and you use it often.
#838062 - 08/17/01 12:23 PM Re: 7 Ship SAG ---> How to sink them all?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Hornit:
The Slam is a really good weapon. It has great range for standoff and the capability to carry many types of warhead. In the not too distant future I would wager good money that it will have GPS, IR, TV, and radar guided target acquisition modes. Right now it may not, but what I was saying is it is not by any stretch fantasy to "pretend"it has these capabilities for the sim.

As for the statement about having to get within 20 miles to use the HARM I have to disagree. You may be able to have the shooters (for Harpoon) launch from way off using the good standoff capability, but you are gonna still have to do something about the SAG's defenses in order for those 'poons to make it to their targets! Remember, in real life one flight isnt going to do all this stuff by itself. It would be a coordinated multi axis attack using jammers and lots of strike aircraft, and lots of SEAD aircraft, all working to coordinate the timing, so the HARMS do the job while the missiles run in to hit the ships.

Hornit



Yes, all good points there.

Hornit, where is that mission "Alpha Strike" that you made some time ago? I would like to download it again (onto my new system).

This mission demonstrates all of the aspects of an anti-ship mission including all of the jamming etc. It also recognises something which is often left unsaid - that alpha strikes are very bloody dangerous!!! It was a great mission Hornit.

On another note Hornit I thought this might interest you. I am making a campaign for download for CFS2 - You are a pilot in the USNR VC-65 on the Saint Lo CVE-63 during October 1944.

You as the player will participate in anti submarine operations around the Phillipines, and assist the landings on Leyte by USMC Lt Gen Krueger on 20 October 1944. You can participate in the Battle off Samar on the morning of 25 October 1944, first as Ens. Young, who found Admiral Takeo Kurita's Centre Force (which included the Yamato and the Musashi) and then you conduct anti ship strikes on the Japanese. All squadron members will fly the FM-2 Wildcat in air-ir and air-ground and anti-ship operations. There were 18 FM-2 on this carrier in VC-65 (the "C" in VC stands for Composite) and about 8 TBMs (the last production model of the Avengers torpedo/level bomber).

I will also have missions in a squadron on the USS Hornet in the Battle off Cape Engano, which happened in the morning and afternoon of 25 October 2001. The squad will most probably be that carrier's Hellcat squadron. (IMHO the "glamour boy" F4-U Corsair gets far too much press!!).

The position of all the ships and planes from various squads will be modelled to the minute! But the campaign will differ from history depending on the players' impact and various "what ifs?".

Any input into this project would be appreciated. Let me know what you fellow Janes FA-18 fans think.


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