Everyday I see less and less postings in this form. Is the newness wearing off?

Still think this is a great game but... the campaigns seem to get a wee bit routine, and the AI is anemic. I'm sorry, but if a destroyer catches me at point blank range with my conning tower still above the water, I should be seagull bait. Wish it were a bit more challenging.

Summer is here.

waiting for 1.4

I got sunk just before 1.3 was released(25th patrol) 2nd time by a "very good" escort while coming up to periscope depth.

Figured I would catch up on some work and found starforce had messed up my RW software.(how they can get away with screwing up someone else's software, I dont know).

Sort of. Its hard to get myself to play for more than an hour any more. The reward of sinking ships is all too familiar. I think I have burnt out.

Yeah, same here.

When it came out, I played nothing else for weeks, and now I haven't touched it for weeks.

I'm with Paajtor...

I even went back to Civ III conquests for a bit... At least it is dynamic....

The current AI and DM stop me from playing. It is no challenge, thus no fun.

I hope.think that this may be addressed. As I said in the review, if it gets finished it will be the sim of the year and an all time classic.

As it stands, COAD is still the gameplay king if this genera.

My attention has weaned recently, more down to the poor performance around ports, lack of difficulty against destroyers (dive deep + silent running, wait for him to bugger off) and general feeling of being the only vessel in the entire kriegsmarine (suprising how much of an immersion killer that last one is)

Fixes needed, and getting long overdue now. Meanwhile there's Rome Total War and Tiger Woods 2005

Hello...
I am the artist formerly known as MosheDyan to these boards. You may even find a crummy book review of "The Forgotten Soldier" somewhere in these archives!

Anyway...I thought I would pop in again as I saw SimHQ referenced over at Subsim and say hello to you all....and I will try to keep my infamous tangents and Dennis Miller asides to a minimum....

The last thing I expected when lurking in these forums is a post topic like this one. Especially when IMO you have the best sim since Steel Beasts in SHIII. I see that Teddy Bar has been posting excellent mission reports over at subsim and I find the comments on this board surprising to say the least (I also read your review). I have to say that with over 200 hours of time in SHIII I am seeing something new on each patrol. I am still running a vanilla install with only the 1.2 patch applied (I am glad I am not an early adapter...I need that sonar man!) and am looking forward to expanding the game with all the interesting mods (RUB etc) once the next patch is validated as a good fix for what 1.3 broke.

I can see references in the earlier posts regarding AI and the campaign which I feel like adding my nickels worth to. I will agree that the AI seem fairly dumb in the early years of the war (1939-mid-1941); however, once the US enters the war and the air coverage begins to dramatically expand it becomes a whole new ball game. I feel this models well the learning curve the Brits and Yanks had to follow during the convoy wars. It was in 1942 that the Allies started acting like an ASW asset rather then shepards to the flock and the game seems to do a good job of modeling this behavior with gradual improvement.

With regard to the campaign I believe there is a misunderstanding of what "dynamic" is to SHIII. The publishers (not the devs) should have used the word "variable" or a nice version of "random" instead. Dynamic campaign (to me anyway) means a new and different mission every time AND my performance during that mission WILL affect the outcome of the overall war. With SHIII I get a variable assignment with the ability to do as I see fit once the initial patrol goal is met....BUT...and its a crucial BUT..the outcome of the war is not going to be affected regardless or my performance. And I am cool with that...if I want alternate history I'll go read some more of Harry Turtledove's formula rubbish (He should have quit after "The Guns of The South").

I have another theory as well for you folks to contemplate. From what I can read on the forums here and at the official SHIII site (yuck...I would never register there) the majority of complaints about the actual gameplay (NOT patch errors or tech problems) seem to be from folks with rather short attention spans, the tactically clueless, the history-challenged (if I read another "why is the English Channel/Gibraltar/Scapa Flow so hard" thread I am going to puke), and the folks who like to play Quake on the high seas. I know this may be somewhat harsh...but I do not feel I am incorrect. Mix in the odd grognard who is mad about the toilet not modeled in game (you should read my comment on that one at subsim ) and you wind up with a lot of silliness on the various boards.

Now perhaps I am an optimist...and a gamer who likes to go slow and think (I also love the Combat Mission series and the Talonsoft Campaign series). I will also freely admit that most flight sims leave me feeling pretty cold (ok...I like IL-2...a lot!). I personally do NOT enjoy anything pretending to model advanced avionics and weaponry for a variety of reasons (with a couple of exceptions...I'll go into that another time if anyone cares) and prefer to fight my virtual wars from the days when it was MKI eyeball and at best primitive sensors.

Anyway...thats my pitch for not giving up on SHIII. Flame if you must...but be warned that I will only respond to INTELLIGENT flames...not that I expect anything less from SimHQ folks! I made the mistake of joining the Counterstrike:Source forum (ok...I like a bit of twitch gaming sometimes and those graphics are drop-dead beautiful) and I could not understand what the heck the threads were about (i.e. "dude u suxors 100110)....they can't even get the binary right .

Regards.....
SGT_Rock (formerly MosheDyan)....and BTW...hello again to...Cofield right? Worked in telecomms in the San Diego area...Qualcomm maybe?

It would be great to meet up with another Uboat for a coornidated attack.....very cool. Even exchanging messages with others. And the lack of a truely dynamic campaign....with war outcome changeable limits the game's appeal. I would also like to be able to go to all the compartments of the UBoat....get into the torpedo rooms, engine rooms....head and sleeping quarters are not that important. One last little thing is the gramaphone sound volume is very weak while every other sound is good.
All that said I still like the game......it just doesn't have the same immersion as AOD did.

Subsim still has loads of daily posts, although I find the noise level there a trifle high. And yes, the newness is wearing off as you start to want more variation in the game. Radio messages bearing war news, to put you in a context greater than "my isolated sub against the world", news of the exploits of aces and fallen comrades etc would be a great help, as would a more exciting damage model.

The game engine is good, so all that's needed is more athmospere and ambience.

One thing sorely needed, IMHO, is some historical operations. Like D-day, Dunkirk, Operation Torch.

This would add some extra life to the campaigns until we get the official Expansion Pack.

Right now I kinda feel like a lot of the ships are just "Spawning" and sailing about "Willy-nilly", with no rime or reason other than to provide you with some additional targets. At least some of these ships need to have more of a purpose when spawning or just sailing about.

Additional Port Traffic is a biggie as well. It seems like none of the "Mods" to date have really done this right, too much or too little. I would really like to see an Official inclusion of SOME port traffic, even just SOME docked ships.

I'm not really into the World Mod. Too much "Arcade" level of activity, for my taste.

Also some additional radio commands or responses, from BdU, would greatly liven things up.

Sigh.....@Charlie901.....

Look...historical operations are brilliant and much discussed and the mod community seems to be attacking that angle. I cannot help noticing that you (and a lot of others) are asking for Normandy/Torch LANDING scenarios...in other words you would like to see those lovely landing ships and gunfire support ships etc all lined up in a place you can easily find.....I hate to ask this but is that historically accurate? Nope. Would your sub even survive that? If realistic...nope...see the actual u-boat history from the Normandy timeframe and you will find that most were smoked WELL before they got within light-seconds of the Channel! The whole point of U-boat warfare was to interdict supply long before it got to Europe (hence the Battle of the Atlantic).

As far as boats sailing around "willy-nilly" I have not seen that behavior...unless you count the ****storm that gets stirred up when attacking a convoy . If you patrol along the convoy routes (and single shipping routes as well) the ships are going in the right direction! Whats the complaint there? And the escorts sure would like to find YOU!

And if by port traffic you mean more stuff in enemy ports I would respond that you actually have no wish to play this as a sim or realistically at all. With one or two exceptions no sub skipper is going to poke the sub's snout within 250km of a port unless he/she has a death wish. If you mean traffic in your port there are mods for that if your graphics card can handle it.

I will agree that a bit more radio traffic would make things slightly more immersive...but...the reality was that as DF improved during the war sending radio messages was like painting a huge "kick me" sign on your sub .

SHIII simply is not for everyone...especially those used to putting on the afterburners and engaging OTH targets.....

SGT_Rock..............well said.

IMO.. I think the `shine` might be wearing off SH3, maybe because other things come along to distract us (and summer is almost here).

There are certain things that become predictable - like the 7kt convoy with only one escort (although I think his tactics are changing ?) or the `go silent & deep till they bugger off part`. There are times when under attack from 3 escorts that I`ve wished for another U-boat to make an attack to take the preasure off me !

Yes, there are things that need fixing, the sonar man in v1.3 for example (I won`t use v1.3 for that reason), and there is a huge "wish list" that needs to be addressed. Starforce is an issue that will not go away and has to be sorted out before customers take their money elsewhere.

Once these well know problems get sorted out then I can see SH3 growing - look at IL-2 ?

Yup, summer is here (northern hemi). I'm busy loosing (and losing) golf balls these days instead of torpedoes. Just as many duds too.

Guys there is a fellow named Irishred at the Subsim forum who is adding historically accurate radio messages for 1.3 and has gone up to 1940. Ther are lots of nice little mods, also try playing at higher realism factors that might make it more interesting.

Anyone who says SH3 is too easy needs to play at 100% difficulty in 1943 and 1944. If you can survive the war without relying on externals and the other aids, and you still say this sim is too easy, then hats off to you mate

The ASW AI in the late war is excellent. Especially with the 1.3 patch. But since many people need a SO talking to them instead of working around it they are likely missing on the improved AI routines.

Well said DBond!

To me SH III isn't certainly wearing off its newness and the SH3 campaign is certainly great and one of the best that I have ever played in a WWII simulation (independently of being a Flight, Sub or whatever other simulation type). The ability of recruiting your crew and equiping/upgrading the sub at the players "taste" is certainly unique and very apreciated by me!

I enjoy SHIII a lot and will continue to play it for a long time and to me SHIII is still the best sim of these recent years and I'm almost certain that it will maintain to be it so unless that some new and unexpected pleasant surprises arrise.

Sigh.....back @SGT_Rock

Inevidably, when I don't write a book for a post, someone always takes me out of context. :rolleyes:

To retort:
From what I've read, your basically saying that Historical Operations aren't Historically accurate?

Maybe you prefer an alternate WWII universe, where things happen Dynamically, including history; not me?

What's wrong with some historical operations simulated? Isn't this sim is supposed to simulate the actual War?

If not, maybe you'd also prefer the end of the war to be variable?

This sim is supposed to recreate "Actual" events in WWII when they happened.

Didn't the Dev's originally say that the Bismark would complete it's historic voyage? This is no different than what I'm suggesting.

Theoretically, right now, in this game, I could park my U-Boat, off the U.S. Coast, on the exact date war was declared, by Germany on the U.S., and know exactly when the war with the U.S. will start. Same could be said for the inclusion of the historical operations.

By your same argument this would not be "realistic".

Just because we might know the historical dates doesn't mean we have to cheat when we play the game.

Also:

Maybe I should have been more clear concerning the ships. Convoys are great and historical, but the single ships, sailing around, "Willy-nilly" are arcade at best and seem to have no clear purpose. I know why they're in the game; to provide bonus Targets. However it really detracts from the realism when you encounter the same single small merchant, multiple times in a single day.


Sure I could almost completely remove the, enemy, single merchants, but isn't the War in the Atlantic, as presently simulated, a little quite anyway. Historical Operations would add some variety to these random ships (other than convoys) and provide some with a very difficult chance at a Task Force enroute.

I don't care how difficult it would be to attack the main D-Day Invasion Fleet, cause if it was modelled correctly it should be suicide.

However, it would add some challenge in not being able to, safely travel, though, the English Channel, on those dates, and for those who want to take a shot at some ships, on the outskirts, travelling back and forth, it could provide some tense action (Like what's simulated in the stock, single missions).

Why should I be able to "Safely" cruise the surface off the Normandy Beaches on 6/6/44??? Isn't this game supposed to be a non, "Alternate" Universe simulation?


Ports:
Some ships in your home port would add greatly to the experience when tralleing all the way back. I'd like to see some different German Naval vessels up close at the docks, cause I sure haven't seen them on the high seas.
Pulling into port could be more immersive in this way. Sure it could be considered merely "Eye-Candy" but I want it.

As far as enemy ports: See above comment on Historical Operations (suicide but greatly rewarding). Right now I have no problem sliding into Scapa Flow; Realistic/Historical, I think not. So what's wrong with putting some ships in there if the game isn't accurate on Port Defenses anyway. I say we need both.

If we wanted to play this game on what we'd think a U-Boat would have survived, all our careers would be over long before the end of the war.
World Mod was a "Thumbs down" for me because of my stated reasons.

You have some very valid points but I can't help but feel that you think my suggestions are, "Arcadey", and not what I intended.

If implemented correctly my suggestions could only add to the: experience/immersion/realism/historicalness.

Formally known as MosheDyan,
Welcome back!

I don’t think that this topic is out of place at SimHQ. I think that it is a reasonable question. What is good about such a question when posed here is the quality of responses.

I think that you have me confused with BeachAV8R whom has been posting AAR. I have never done an AAR. Of course BeachAV8R should be honoured to be mistaken for me LOL

With regards to the AI, I feel that you are mistaken. All escorts for the entire war will break off 15 minutes after loosing contact with you, end of story. The only reason this does not happen in the later stages of the war is due to dubious sonar configurations as has been discussed at Subsim. The AI level may get better but it is yet to be great.

The sim.cfg file entry for escort rentention after lost contact is
[AI detection]
Lost contact time=15 ;[min]

The AI as a whole is not that good. Just because you die does not mean that it is that good either. I quote from the Softpedia Q&A,
Also just look at the merchant AI, dumb as a lump of 4x2. It cannot evade you but just keeps on coming to its death. Sigh.

I don’t wish to sound arguementative, but ‘dynamic’ does not mean that you change the course of the war AAARrrrggghhhhhh. It is dynamic, the AI react to your presence and send out a response based upon available assets.

With regards to the u-boat response to the Normandy landing, from June 6 to the end of August 1944 thirty u-boats equipped with the schnorchels performed 45 patrols. Of the 30 u-boats 20 had been lost. Of the success, they sank 5 & damaged 1 escort, sank 12 & damaged 5 merchant ships and sank 4 & damaged 1 landing craft. The schnorchels had allowed the u-boats to operate against the allies until the end of the war where 49 u-boats were at sea.

You mentioned this before, about the ships not evading. With our settings they sure do, a lot. Now, darkness & or storm can lessen this, but in daylight with the scope up too high for too long, & the speed over 1/3, they certainly do. The C3s are much slower & the coastal's much, much faster. Sometimes our eels explode on the way to target when launched in heavy seas. On the escort thing, they sure as Hades stick around a lot longer than 15 mins. in our sim/game. How about a couple hrs. & lots of times longer, especially if there's a cripple dead in the water. This is all with 1.3 & later on in the war. We're up to 24 missions now but have never got past 40 because of the destroyers.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Kraut,
Making a turn so that the torpedo misses is not what I was refering too.

What I was refering too is that if a ships basic course is to bring it with 500 metres of your u-boat, the ship will no more than a little zig zagging 500 metres either side of the same basic path at the same speed.

In reality the ship would speed up and turn tail as best as possible and run from the u-boat. It would if possible ram the u-boat as did occur several times during the war.

In Silent Hunter III the ships are like lambs to the slaughter, no skill required.

What I was saying about the 15 minutes is that after they have lost contact the clocks starts. If after 15 minutes the escort has not found you then they will leave. NOW, if they redetect you after 14 minutes they will not leave until they again loose you and the clocks starting from zero reaches 15 minutes.

I would also point out that there are some dubious sensor settings associated with the American escorts in which they have increadible range etc. This is why they don't leave is because they never loose contact.


Here is the AI section of my review...

AI – Artificial Intelligence

Having just torpedoed, but not sunk the battleship King George. The seven escorts were quick to swing into vengeful hunter mode. Using the ‘external view’, I was able to see how the Escort AI behaved. I was impressed. The Escort AI worked well together and shared contacts. That is, when one had a good contact on me, or thought that they did, then some of the other escorts would come over from afar and join in. At times when I had crept away, I would see the escorts continue to depth charge my last known location, at other times, they would spread out again and each escort would be off searching and/or depth charging in their own area well away from me.

The escorts all weaved in and out between each other for over 2 hours.

After a period of not finding me, the escort headed off, leaving the battleship King George. I moved about 1000 metres from where they had lost me, come to periscope depth and let the King George have another two for good measure. The King George quickly succumbed to my onslaught and as she slid below the waves, the escorts made a turn around and came back to the last location that they had known me to be.

At what time the escorts give up and depart is more of an issue compared to that of leaving the battleship. Currently the Escort AI will cease the hunt if they have lost contact with you for fifteen game minutes. You can surface take a pot shot at the escorts to get them to come back. Again, after having lost contact for fifteen minutes, they will leave, surface take a pot shot at the escorts to get them to come back, again, after having lost contact for fifteen minutes, they will leave, and so it will go on until you get bored.

In the King George exercise above I experienced the Escort AI at its best. Unfortunately, in and around a convoy the Escort AI shows many failings.

I have sunk ships within a heavily escorted convoy and the escorts have continued as if nothing occurred. I have reproduced this many times, once even sinking three ships.

I have seen the same behaviour when I sank a lone ship. It was ablaze with a plume of smoke and an escort passes by not more than 2000 metres and continues as if nothing has happened.

One of the AI’s good points is its ability to avoid crashing into other ships. Even in large convoys when it all gets a shambles, the AI will not crash into each other. In a self-fulfilling situation, the reason for the convoy being in a shambles is the way that ships avoid crashing into each other. As mentioned in the previous ‘sailing model’ discussion, the AI ships can accelerate and stop in a most unrealistic manner. The AI uses this ability to stop on the spot to avoid crashing into another ship. The ship behind then has to avoid the ship that stopped, and so does the one behind that one. Shortly the convoy looks like a freeway pile up but without any ship actually having hit another.

Even though “The escorts all weaved in and out between each other for over 2 hours” there were several instances where two escorts would avoid hitting each other only to sit there for a lengthy period doing nothing before then resuming their journey. This issue is more likely to occur in and around a convoy.

From the above exercise involving the seven escorts I got the distinct impression that the Escort AI is able to ping right up to and when directly over my U-Boat and that the ADSIC was not impeded by the disturbance of the depth charges as they exploded around me. This apparently is not the case; I am however not fully convinced.

I also noticed that the Escort AI kept making ‘fine’ adjustment all the way up to when it dropped the depth charges in response to attempts that I made to evade the Escorts depth charge run. This tends to indicate that when the Escort AI has found me that it can ‘see’ me a little too well and for too long.

Even when the aim was off, the Escort AI was always 100% accurate on my depth, no matter how often I changed it.

The AI has no ability to navigate in or around land. The AI will always take a direct line towards you and cannot travel 100 metres around the end of the land mass.

I set up a test in Scapa Flow with several escorts in the channels. Each Escort was in no way blocked from engaging me. All had direct routes to engage my position. All the Escorts ships managed to end up land bound. Most of their own free will, that is, they ended up land bound after spotting me several thousand metres away and as they made a direct line to me they ended up land bound.

The other escorts that did not become land bound by themselves because there was no landmass directly between them and myself, did become land bound after I went around a landmass with them in pursuit.

The escorts do not run aground; they just stop right up against it. They then seem unable to function after that. That is, after I had circled around submerged and then surfaced behind the escorts they did not reverse away from the land and pursue me.

The Merchant AI is very basic. The Merchant AI will not run from you after your U-Boat has been detected. It will veer away a little, but nothing more. To be clear on this matter, if a merchant ship’s plotted course is to take it within 400 metres of a surfaced U-Boat, it will follow that course to within 400 metres of the surfaced U-Boat.

This makes attacking a merchant ship a simple process of charging in like a bull and firing. The Merchant AI does a nice job of swerving left and right to make a torpedo attack difficult, but it is predictable and not difficult enough for a skilled manual TDC user to miss. Nor will the Merchant AI attempt to ram you. If you do get rammed it is simply a case of you getting into its path when it was zigzagging.

The Airplane AI is very basic. The Airplane AI flies in drops its depth charges and leaves. Only the bomber style Aircraft AI uses their machines guns, aircraft such as the Hurricane fighter do not.

The “fly in drop the depth charges” is all the Airplane AI can do. When responding to my presence as ‘reported’ by the Escort AI, the Airplane AI will fly in and very precisely drop depth charges where I am meant to be and fly off. I saw ten aircraft do this in succession.

As a side note, the planes have a very generous flight model.

Once when in port, with dozens of buildings between our position and a German ship 3000 metres away, my Watch Officer saw the ship. This would indicate that the AI does not see objects in its way. That is, the AI can see through any object such as buildings and ships. This phenomenon may explain why when the AI is targeting your U-Boat it does not take into account anything that may be in-between. This will often result in the AI shelling other ships, not once, but as long as they are in the way. This can then lead to the AI ships fighting it out with each other.

In shallow water, your Crew AI will warn you when you select a depth greater then that of the water, however this does not carry over to deeper depths, even after you have requested a depth reading. I believe that the Crew AI should, when ‘they’ now the depth under the keel, warn a player if he should ask for a depth greater than that.

That aside, apart from letting, the player chose a depth greater than it is known to be; the Crew AI will not react when the U-Boat impacts upon the seabed and will continue to dive to the depth you requested.

Your AI crew will not warn you of an impending collision, no matter how obvious it is. There have been occasions where my career has ended due to a collision when under time compression at the Navigational Map.

The Escort AI in the King George example did show some real potential and looked to have the makings of a truly dazzling AI; however, it is also obvious that the Escort AI is a long way from being finished.

As for the Merchant and the Airplane AI, I feel that they are still using the placeholder AI they came with when they were used to test the other parts of the game.

I am not sure what to make of the current state of the AI in Silent Hunter III. I can only presume that it was given a low priority or the task had been under estimated and as a result started too late in the development cycle.

I think that's a fair assessment and I have to agree . I have seen some tremendous AI in this sim, in particular a group of convoy escorts in the Med in 1943 that really did the number on me. And also all escorts sailing with task forces really have their act together, the way they work as a team, apparently using one boat as a listening post while the others drop. On the whole I think Teddy has it right, but it's not anything that will make me put the sim away.

It's certainly not wearing off for me. I'm still plugging away at my J.Steiner career in U3. I just haven't had time to post here about the career. I just upgraded to a Type VIIB and I've been getting to bed late and staggering around tired for a couple of weeks straight now. I get to play after the baby is in bed, and my wife and I have chilled out a bit. I find it very hard to walk away from SH3.

I play it less than some people, because I have to balance it with
1 work
2 wife
3 baby
4 other nefarious things that happen when I get home.

But I still thoroughly enjoy the game. I understand fully the problems some folk have with it, but for what it is, it's really beyond compare. It's immersive and very addictive. I think the 3d crew is the big clincher. I draws me in more than anything. The whole not-being-alone thing.

I'm running 1.2 with ACertainMod 2, BTW. Running the mod improved things for me. I like having the escort into and out of the harbour, and seeing the destroyers & schnellbooten around the approach to Wilhelmshaven.

If you play anything too much you'll get sick of it. But I don't have the opportunity to do that. I still can't wait to get back to my patrol in the evenings.

I'm chuckling a little here. I'm also glad I didn't come on here with an attitude, which I came damn close to doing. I was thinking that you must not of been playing this sim much, as, just because a person can write songs, does not automatically make him/her a good singer. After reading your post a couple of times, I'm still a little in the ozone layer. It all boils down, IMO, that I can win some, but if I get careless, I lose. I still have to stalk my prey & use caution. The way I play, nothing is a sure thing. Now, this could all be down to the fact that I'm a lousy submariner & if so, maybe I'll get better & play @ a more complex level as I go on. I must admit though, my kills are way off the scale as to RL & this is probably due to all the reasons you mentioned. Still, I haven't had this much fun since the original AOD, & IMO, this one is even better.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Well, I can't play anymore.

Reinstalled windows the other night and now I get a "CAB ERROR" whenever I try to install SH3.

My system is new so I'm not sure why this is happening.

The reasons that come up with the error are not very helpful. :rolleyes:

So much for my carrer in the navy

Actually I haven't played at all because I hat to go back to 1.2 and don't want to play 1.3 (sonarman issue).

navy my ass!

Of course everyone can play how ever they choose, but for me the SO issue is not a showstopper. The only things missing are the voice and text messages. Otherwise it works as before. If you are at TC higher than 8, a new sound contact will cause the TC to drop to 8. If you are less than 8 TC, you can just ask the SO for a report on the nearest contact.

I admit I would like to have the voice messages, but without them our boat hasn't missed a beat. And this is playing without the auto-map too. For anyone who likes to use it, it gives directional lines to the contact. I don't see what more you could need?

If people choose to stay at 1.2 because of this issue that's fine, but personally I think it's a bit overblown.

Voice messages? try shoot...

I'm treating this issue pretty much like DBond . . . there are no 1.3 show-stoppers for me neither.

But I still stand by my statement. The posts around here are fewer and fewer each week. I still love SHIII but I see that probably many of the flight simmers that were around here have gone back to flying.

Early 42 with 1.3 & all ships in the convoy manouver after my first salvo. The ones @ the back turn hard 45 degrees whilst the ones towards the centre really start to zig/zag. I then get raked by 2 destroyers for over an hr. but I get away with minimal damage. No, I see very little wrong with 1.3 & the destroyers are much more difficult to hurt, & IMO, a lot less arcade in finding & sinking targets. She's just a great game with a ton of challenges. Lots of J Factor.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

it's not wearing off, I still like to play Kap'n ..it's just that I've only got 1 day a week to go hunting. She'll be on my drive for a long time, no doubt!

Howdy,
Apologies for not getting back sooner but a job interview ( ...got it) and golf got in the way! I was also distracted by an interesting post by one of the UK mods in another off-topic area...

First...apologies for incorrectly crediting BeachAV8R's AAR's! Very entertaining and informative to say the least.

Second...I just wanted to restate my opinion of the SHIII "dynamic" campaign:

"With regard to the campaign I believe there is a misunderstanding of what "dynamic" is to SHIII. The publishers (not the devs) should have used the word "variable" or a nice version of "random" instead. Dynamic campaign (to me anyway) means a new and different mission every time AND my performance during that mission WILL affect the outcome of the overall war. With SHIII I get a variable assignment with the ability to do as I see fit once the initial patrol goal is met....BUT...and its a crucial BUT..the outcome of the war is not going to be affected regardless or my performance. And I am cool with that...if I want alternate history I'll go read some more of Harry Turtledove's formula rubbish (He should have quit after "The Guns of The South")."

My sarcastic commentary about Turtledove's books aside I will stand by that statement and feel that it applies to PC games as a whole. I rather suspect that if SHIII really was "dynamic & realistic" it would not sell as well as it has so far. The statistics detailing the U-boat losses would be enough to put me right off in the first place-who wants to play for the losing team! While everyone plays ANY sim for a variety of reasons I personally enjoy the experience of trying my tactics based on my own personal experience/reading/research etc. Can I have myself and crew survive to the end of the war? Can I try tactics that work in other sims? Yup! Can I change the course of events? Nope. I think a truely dynamic game/sim really has yet to be produced. I think there were valid attempts in a few titles (Commanche-v-Hokum and Heavy Gear spring right to my mind) but the dynamics were based on an alternate reality which to me makes it less immersive and ultimately not as much fun (for me). As far as I can tell the only really dynamic games/sims available at the moment are the "Evercrack" (and its various clones) which are not my cup of tea at all .

As far as the AI goes I am satisfied for the moment. I just entered 1942 in my campaign and the difficulty is increasing (grrrr...aircraft). Sure I have nitpicks (the one pass and done aircraft attack is a particular irritant) but the important bit (to my mind) of escort AI works pretty darn good. Yeah...the merchants seem pretty stupid...but...in reading further about the period I don't see too many problems. If I am submerged, undetected and within 1000m of merchant ships when I fire there is not much they can do about it. And the convoys always go banana's after the first torpedo hits as well...nice touch as it usually wrecks my next firing solution on a T3 further up the ranks of the convoy .

OK...historical accuracy within the campaign. Fast merchants can and did travel solo throughout the war. Seeing a coastal frieghter in the middle of the Atlantic is silly; however, the mod community is busily hacking away to fix this sort of inconsistency. I would also like to have the opportunity to go after the Torch convoys, D-day sites etc...but..we know exactly when/where these events happened. From my perspective I would rather see these sorts of things in single mission...not in my campaign. Werner (in Iron Coffins) when ordered to go after the Normandy shipping post-D-Day believed there was no point in that effort and was aware it was a suicide run. Ditto for me...in the face of overwhelming odds like that where there is ZERO chance on impacting the eventual outcome why risk your virtual life?

I think we will just have to agree to disagree! I was lucky (or unlucky ) enough to have been "underemployed" for the past few months and probably have over 300 hours time in SHIII. I will say that it has lost no flair or "shine" and I am eagerly awaiting the 1.4 patch so I can add on RUB-type mods etc to increase the playability of what is a terrific sim! I hope my new employers provide a decent laptop as a good convoy hunt can eat up a transatlantic flight in no time!

Regards
SGT_Rock

SGT_Rock,
Great news regarding the job.

Your version of 'dynamic' makes me think that you are a flyboy. I cannot see the link between 'dynamic' and history must change.

Dynamic as per the dictionary is Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress.

I feel that SHIII achieves this. If your u-boat is detected, the AI send a response, this means continues change and progress. The issue is that SHIII does not yet (forever hopeful) do this well.

You will only accept ‘dynamic’ in the most extreme use and I suspect always disagree on what 'dynamic' means

I feel that the reason the U-boat simulation is so popular is that they achieved such incredible results against such strong opposition. I feel that should a u-boat sim ever be released where history did change, it would be a complete flop.

As far as size of ships within a convoy, you are very mistaken. As posted by pampanito in the Subsim forum….

SC-122 - Total 65 ships
By Flag - British 41, USA 6, Panama 4, Norway 3, Iceland 3, Netherlands 3, Sweden 2, Greece 2, Yugoslavia 1.
(Interestingly, two of the Americans were LST-305 and LST-365, technically warships, but included in the merchant roster and sailing in the middle of the convoy).
By tonnage - 9 ships of 7,000 grt or more
41 between 3,000 and 7,000
15 of less than 3,000
By type - 54 freighters, 8 tankers, 2 LSTs, 1 whale factory ship
Largest ship was British GLENAPP (9,503 grt), smallest Icelandic SELFOSS (775 grt).


HX-229 - Total 40 ships
By Flag - British 18, USA 15, Netherlands 3, Panama 2, Norway 2.
By tonnage - 23 ships of 7,000 grt or more
17 between 3,000 and 7,000
By type - 30 freighters, 9 tankers, 1 whale factory ship
Largest ship was British whaler SOUTHERN PRINCESS (12,156 grt), smallest American MARGARET LYKES (3,537 grt).


HX-229A - Total 43 ships.
By Flag - British 25, USA 12, Panama 4, Netherlands 2.
By tonnage - 24 ships of 7,000 grt or more
15 between 3,000 and 7,000
4 of less than 3,000
By type - 32 freighters, 10 tankers, 1 whale factory ship
Largest ship was British refrigerated ship AKAROA (15,130 grt), smallest British IRIS (1,479 grt).

Anyway, it is great to read you well formed posts.

What I'm finding 'dynamic', is that the quarry is getting more cautious, & their guards more attuned to my signatures. She's a getting tougher to survive & rack up kills. We're really using the J Factor now & I suspect it's going to get more so. Just starting our 28 patrol in DID & imma nervous.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Wait till you get the XXI later in the war. No special cautiousness needed.
Instant invisibility.
I'm on my 49th patrol and have the XXI since 5 patrols (march 45, war will be over after the next patrol).
I've never felt so untouchable. And I don't use it's great submerged speed at all. It really seems that this sub is invisible to the enemy. Totally clueless escorts while I decimate the convoy.

TBird

WOW TBird....That is TOTALLY opposite of what I am experiencing.....I'm in February of 1945, in a type XXI on my 40th patrol, and EVERYONE sees me. The aircraft, the DD's, everyone.
I have to travel at TC-16 when snorkel up at depth, or I'm dead instantly, by the AC. Snorkel is useless, they spot it on radar when I'm anywhere near an aircraft. I travel at only 5kt or less.
With the radar destroyed bug on the type XXI, I don't have radar on my snorkel.
I can't let a DD get within 1-2000 yards, or he sees me, and calls his buddies...once they spot me, they never lose me, whether I'm 14m stopped or 275m and silent/stopped.....I'm dead.
I have to kill everyone before they get within 500 meters, or it's too late, they're under the guns, and I'm dead.

My only ace is the speed to 'move' over.
But once they lock onto you, they DON'T lose you.
Eventually they always win.
The only answer is to stay away from them.
FAR away....kill anything within 2000m....or your dead.
If they stumble onto you....they see you, your DEAD, and if you try to move away....they see you, your DEAD.
That's my experience.

WOW what a difference!

Mid `41 in a IXB for me - 36 patrols (tweaked "time in port" from 28 down to 5 days)...
Already I have noticed the escorts are getting more on the job, if I ever make it to `45 I think I`ll be lucky. (also no doubt a nervous wreck in RL)

The game is not wearing off for me, but when before I used to go in with `all guns blazing` - now I sit back more and observe before committing my boat and crew

Good Hunting to all other Kapitans out there

Mid `41 here also, 33 patrols in U-48 same boat I started with Type VIIb. Been pretty lucky so far. Games not wearing off, just more things to do this Summer, plus other Sims I`m playing. The escorts are getting more plentiful, and tougher. Still play as much as I can. Good Hunting. Puts

Strange that my experience is so different.

Some examples of this experience:

-A few patrols ago, I attacked a fairly big convoy s/w of ireland. Calm weather and daylight. I waited submerged in his path.
When he arrived, the leading destroyer crossed in front of me at approx. 1700meters. I couldn't resist sinking him with an acoustic torp. Then I started the engines and headed towards the convoy (silent). A destroyer that covered the side of the convoy was at 160degrees, distance 3000-4000meters. He accelerated after his friend exploded but never came near.
I then fired 3 torps, one at a T3, one at a T2 and one at a troop transport. All 3 hit, but none of them sunk. They just stopped. I decided to sink them later and marked their position on the map.
Meanwhile, I was in the middle of the convoy. There I could, without ever been detected, take out some libertys and victorys. And believe me, I had the periscope up for quite some time (never fully, though).
The destroyers reacted, but they never drove into the convoy to search for me. I was able to sink another one that crossed in front of the convoy (I love those acoustic eels!).

With 4 torps left to sink the previously damaged ships, I dove to 80meters, turned around 180 degrees and headed into the direction of the 3 damaged ships.
I once heard a ping of one of the destroyers that came too near, but the pings lasted only 30seconds and then he was gone to protectthe convoy.
As I reached the first damged ship, the convoy and the escorts were about 7km away, barely visible.
After I sunk the T2, a destroyer headed towards our position, but gave up after a short time (I was already on the way to the 2nd ship which was about 6km away). I sunk the 2nd ship, but this time no destroyer reacted.
I then proceeded to the last one. As the convoy was out of sight by this time, I raised the snorkel. As I manouvered into a good 90degr. position to finish off the last tanker, I suddenly heard explosions.
I raised the periscope and saw several planes throw bombs about 1km away (don't know where they came from).
Although I had the snorkel up for quite some time, the didn't seem to see me (they bombed something, but definately not me).
I lowered the snorkel and continued towards the tanker. Just to see what would happen, I drove with raised periscope all the time. They didn't see this either.
I finally sunk the tanker and set course to bergen.

(ooops....this story got longer than I intended)

-3 patrols ago, I drove more than 2 days submerged with the snorkel up, totally unharmed. It was west of ireland.

-one time, I followed a fast convoy, snorkel up. I checked the position of the convoy from time to time with the periscope. On one of these occasions, I thought it would be good to make a 360degree check.
Oooops...a destroyer about 2km away on 70degrees. So I lowered the snorkel and ordered 100m. At 50meters I released a "Täuschkörper" (english word?) and prepared to be DCed.
To my surprise, nothing happened. Once again, the destroyer hadn't seen me.

-planes: I've never been attacked by planes while submerged and snorkel up. Nor have I been surprised by planes on the surface (in the XXI, the VIIc was totally different).

Possible explanation: whenever I get the message that radar emissions are detected, I immediately order periscope depth. I then ask for the nearest sonar contact. If there's none, the radar emission came from a plane and I dive to 50meters at full speed, changing direction.
If there's a sonar contact, it's a destroyer and I change direction 90 degrees and dive to 80 meters in silent mode (most of the time, the detroyers are far away at this moment, so no worries).
This has always worked so far.

Uuuh, long post. But hey, I post from work

Finally, some infos about my game:
I'm still using v1.2 with the Wmod2.02. Not much more (some sounds and officer fatigue removed)

Greetings
TBird

Edited for spelling and some content

"Your version of 'dynamic' makes me think that you are a flyboy...."

Hahaha....I'm busted. Former Air Force...and Army....but NOT a pilot (although I have had sensor operator time in a modified C-337).
Actually....in all honesty I used to be terrified of flying and barfed almost every time I had to go up in a helicopter (Hueys when I first went in and Blackhawks later on). I even managed to toss cookies aboard a KC-10 flying from Ellsworth AFB back to Offutt AFB when the pilot gave us a peek at Mt Rushmore-it's a wee bit bouncy around those parts . When I started feeling green the gas-passer gave me an envelope and told me to use that--not knowing that there was a barf bag inside I promptly overflowed that all over myself, the refueling technician, and that nifty boom-operator gear :p . It's a bit ironic that after close to 3/4 of a million corporate air miles later I usually sleep like a baby these days. Perhaps I would have done better with a double Bailey's on the rocks pre-flight back in those days
Of course when I cross-trained into PMEL and actually learned how aircraft flew and got into simulations I found that helped as well!

Regards
SGT_Rock
Former "scope-dope" and "sparkchaser"
USAF/USA

Gonna re-install SHIII