Ok Gentlemen, this is getting way out of hand here. I don't want to close down what could be an intelligent discussion here but if it degenerates, like I am afraid it will, then I may have to.

Skyblaster, as long as your opinions are placed in an intelligent and thoughtful manner then you are more than welcome to debate the issues of the war with Troll or anyone else. At the same time, Troll, or anyone (including a Yank like myself) has the right to post his opinions. Our perspective may not be the same as yours, but at times it takes an outside, and impartial person, to look at the events in an untainted eye.

There were evil Nazi's and individuals who joined the Nazi party simply because it was in their best interest to be in the Party. To say that evey member of the Nazi party is evil is a stretch to say the least. The average factory foreman, who joined the Nazi Party either because he thought the National Socialist party would help the workers in Germany or because he thought it would give him a promotion is not an evil person. I am also sure that most rank and file members of the party were disgusted and ashamed to have associated with those individuals in charge of the genocide.

Its considered pretty much proven that future wars are fought based upon past events. WW2 was the result of the aftermath of WW1 and WW1 is often considered the result of the years after the Franco-Prussian conflicts of the 1800s. France and England fought for years trying to one up each other based upon whomever won the last conflict. Resentment runs deep among everyone involved. A lot of it is justified, there were some terrible atrocities committed by the Germans against people of every country ravaged by the Nazi War machine.

Long winded again. Lets keep this conversation civil. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion. A debate would be pretty damned boring if everyone agreed on everything. The goal of a debate is to discuss stuff freely and openly, but most of all respectfully.


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Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by SimHQ Tom Cofield (edited March 25, 2001).]

Hi,what I'd like to say is that it was necessary to beat the germans down because even if they 'rent all nazi,they were part of a criminal system which decided to enslave the Europe and more,that's the german soldiers(who wore the swastika on their chest...)had to be fought their units destroyed.This war had to be won by the allied as soon as possible because millions of people suffered and died meanwhile in occupied territories and first in extermination and concentration camps.You must read Primo Levi to understand how much the "Häftlinge" waited for the allies and how many died from starvation in the last weeks.

Just came back from the weekend to see:

Jock :"But in fairness this thread started quite specifically about why the Nazi Party symbol - which is one very specific variant of the Swastika - is not allowed to be distributed in modern day Germany."

Really?!? Now Jock, re-read the first post again, this time slowly, and pronounciate the words. Ok? Now repeat.
What I was wondering was about the absence of the symbol on the tails of the Luftwaffe; I am not questioning the presence or absence of Nazi atrocities. What I did question about is if removing the swastika from the tail assembly,or the Confederate Battle Flag from another game as another poster mentioned, isn't somehow changing current perception of history. I wasn't aware of Germany's current rule about this symbol, so that does in part answer my question, but I think the issue still exists about altering the past to fit or satisfy (PC?) the present. It's a very slippery slope.
FW

I swore to myself I wouldn´t go into this, but...
I occurs to me that the german law that prohibits the use of the swastika was never meant to be used against a computergame. If you watch german movies about the war, the swastika will most certainly occur, as it is a part of history.
The law , I think, was meant to prohibit its use as a political symbol.
And before we continue to kick the germans of today, lets clean before our very own doors. In my country neonazis march with swastikas on their flags. A lot of my countrymen (around 13.000) volunteered for
german warservice as did many french, dutch,
etc....
Whatever we do we can´t run away from history.


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Jensen.
"Stop that polish chit-chat, and steer 2-3-0!"

[This message has been edited by Jensen (edited March 26, 2001).]

Good on ya', Jensen. A perfect distillation of the point I was trying to make-only with many more words.

Cheers

seamusmoon

[This message has been edited by seamusmoon (edited March 26, 2001).]

To get some things straight here: The swastika is not generally banned in Germany. It is allowed if it is placed in the proper context. A documentary film for example can show swastikas, but PC-games are no documentations. Believe it or not! They are toys! And a swastika on a toy would definately minimize the horror of the Nazi-regime and WWII! This is why our government said that swastikas are not allowed in PC-games!

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Nico Waldt
Editor
http://www.flightsimcafe.com
Home of the MiG Alley War Diary

And what of the red star?

Or the rising sun. A Chinese man once told me that the rising sun battle flag is as offensive to him (and many other Chinese people) as a swastika is to a Jew. This notion had never occurred to me but-since my best friend is Jewish-his words made me understand his emotions. It literally gave me a chill when I heard him say this.

I probably shouldn't hop into this debate but, for me, it has nothing to do with "revisionism" or "political correctness" or any of that crap. The whole "Oh-don't-be-so-PC!" attitude really gets under my skin, as if people shouldn't take into account the different attitudes and emotions of others, be they American or otherwise. I don't know how it is in Europe, but the "PC" label is CONSTANTLY thrown around here in the U.S. as a method of belittling and silencing minority voices. The fact that people have to THINK before they speak, well, that's just intolerable to many whose brains have been systematically destroyed by Nutrasweet and sitcoms. The truth is often ugly. Yes, Columbus was a thief, murderer and opportunistic thug. But try voicing this on Columbus Day and see how many eggs and insults are hurled in your general direction. Some native americans have commented that that's like celebrating Hitler Day in their eyes, and, after reading Las Casas' journal, I'm inclined to believe them.

Anyway, although I disagree with the legal banning of swastika-related products, I think people should be sensitive to the loaded meaning behind that symbol. It's all very flippant of us Americans to speak of "historical accuracy" but try looking at it from the other side and show a little compassion. Is that little marking on the tail of the plane really worth it? The whole Confederate flag debate has been going on and on for an eternity here in the South. No state has been spared. Here, the good-ole-boy party line is "Heritage, Not Hate", a slogan I keep waiting for the neo-Nazis to pick up. As a southerner, that's no heritage I want anything to do with, and I don't particularly care how many of my relatives were killed in the Civil War fighting for those "values". In my opinion, if you need a flag to remind you of who you are and where you came from, then you've never really figured that out in the first place.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Regards,
jbunnelle

Focke-Wulf - this was my answer to your specific question right at the start of the thread.

I paraphrased your original question to point out to Old Dux what the initial basis of this thread was. You asked specifically why the Swastika was not on the planes in BoB. The reason is as I gave you above.

Obviously you did not literally ask "why is the symbol of the Nazi Party not allowed to be distributed in modern day Germany."

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

Incidentally, there is no such word as "pronounciate". Equally, pronounciation has nothing do with semantics.



[This message has been edited by jock (edited 04-03-2001).]

My grandmother lived in Eindhoven during the war, and in her opinion, the Allies were actually worse. They were the ones who bombed the Philips Radio+Valve factory, and killed her best friend.

Remember, in this respect, the Allies were much worse. Take it in Cologne, for example. Totalled. Over 10 times the damage caused in the attacks on London. (which this game is about, don't forget )

So, although the Germans and Nazis weren't particularly friendly, neither were the Americans and Russians in Germany.

Very true, Bradiator. Hamburg, Dresden, Cologne, the list goes on and on. Looks like they deleted this little part of the strategic bombing for the B-17 game. There it's all ball-bearings, Luftwaffe factories, U-boat bases. The Nazis certainly didn't have a monopoly on savagery and deprivation.

No, no side has a monopoly on savagry. It is definatly a true statment when it is written that the victors are the heroes and the vanquished are the war criminals in any war. Lets face it, the US bombing of Dresden and other marginally strategic targets was un acceptable and pretty dastardly.

What was going on during WW2 was a test of a theory. Claudio (is that right?) Douhet was an Italian Air Force General that came up with a theory that armies and guns were obsolete and that it was up to the air forces of a country to win the next war. The country with the strongest air force, especially in bombers, would be the victor. His theory stated that bombers would fly over enemy territory and take the damage home to the enemies houses and factories. The damage would be so great that the people would cry out for peace and that most wars would be over quickly and relatively bloodless (compared to WW1).

This theory was ascribed to by notable Americans like Billy Mitchell and Hap Arnold. This influenced the development of both British and American bomber designs. They were built for the specific purpose of testing Douhet's theory that if you bomb the civilian population enough they will get sick of the war and capitulate. Many Nazis had the same opinion and the theory seemed to be justified after the bombing of Rotterdam and Holland's capitulation in the face of 'total destruction from the air'.

In the end Douhet's theory wasn't totally justified and may civilians lost their lives in the night bombing attacks and the saturation bombings by the US Army Air Force. I don't blame anyone for being bitter about the role the US and British had in the bombing of their homes, both the Germans and the Japanese had the right to be bitter. Even if the war was started by your side, you still can feel that what happens to you isn't fair or justified.



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Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

All is fair in love and war.

Actually, the first two waves of the attack which caused the firestorm were conducted by British Bomber Command. The folllow up attack the next day was conducted by American bombers.

* He who joins a club that burns the books, euthanizes the mentally retarded, imprisons, tortures and murders those that do not agree, invades foreign lands, enslaves its peoples, destroys its cultural heritage, robs it blind, etc is evil. Ignorantly evil perhaps, but evil nonetheless.

** More likely they stuck their head in the sand preferreing to look the other way. If there were a retarded euthanized child in their family they may have felt differently. The writing was on the wall well before the facts of the holocaust became known to the world. Dachau was built in 1933. The speeches of Hitler going on about the jews, as well as his writings, all predate 1945, as did the filth of 'der ewige Jude' and 'Triumph der Wille'. Sticking one's head in the sand does not obselve one of complicity.

*** I do not get this particular passage, undoubtedly my fault ;-), however I object to the choice of the word 'some' atrocities in this context.

in reply I would like to state that there comes a time when one has to join either the queue of the condemned, or the queue of the executioners. Put on the striped shirt of those on their way to the gaschamber, or put on the Stahlhelm, complete with swatsika, of those sending them there. There is no middle ground. To proclaim ignorance when your neighbours are horded on a flatbed truck, and to look the other way when they are loaded into a cattle wagon is the same as putting that Stahlhelm on your head, or donning that swatsika uniform. To soothe your mind with phantasies about your neighbours 'being resettled in the East', or 'well, if these clever Germans are doing this perhaps my neighbours did something wrong after all' is the same as pulling the trigger as a member of an Einsatzgruppe. A black and white view, well, these were black and white times. I can only think of the American Civil War as coming anywhere close.

For the record, I am not having a go at Germans past or present. More so than the German nazis I am appalled by the non-Germans that chose to join their ranks, like the Dutch nazi that betrayed the jews that my grandfather was trying to hide. Or the silent majority, that stood and watched, and did nothing either way.

We all have ears, eyes, brains. we all have a conscience, and we all should be able to rise above petty self interest. At least, that is my wish. Unfortunately your statement about the factory foreman joining the brownshirts looking for a promotion does not make me overly optimistic :-(

Back to the original discussion point: I love shooting down nazis in their messerschmidts complete with swatsikas, and when I fly for the Germans in a CPU game, I want my swatsika on there. And a Hitler speech on the radio (well, at least CHarles Chaplin's Great Dictator thanks to meatwater in EAW). For me the games make me relive history, to an extent, and the correct symbols on the planes, as the correct music in the menu screens etc etc, heighten my immersion. OTOH, I understand the desire of the current German legislature to ban Nazi symbols. Personally I feel that there should be no such restrictions. Freedom of speech and all that, no matter how appalling.

Dolle Dolf

Question is: can we learn from WWII and not do it again?

Pick up some books, read about China, and ask yourself, "Why am I letting this happen?"

It is harder than you think.

In China, you can buy a woman for a few pounds of grain.

"China Wakes" by Nicholas D. Kristof and Sheryl Wudunn. True, only one perspective but a very good one.

MBenny

One supposed origin of the swastika:

[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1637521&a=12528072&p=46226178[/img]

[This message has been edited by Zerstorer (edited 04-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Zerstorer (edited 04-09-2001).]

As to how Hitler was 'inspired' to use the Swastika - I remember a BBC programme around the time of the 100th anniversary of his birth, in this programme there was footage of the interior of the church where he was a choirboy, and there at the top of an archway near where the testically challenged one sang was a Swastika.

"It is the doom of men that they forget" - Merlin in the film 'Excalibur'

"Why was this symbol picked/used by the National Socialists?"

Im not going to get into all this political stuff but I can answer that.

Like the post above this states when Hitler was a child there was a Swastika above the alter where he sang in the choir. The most popular theory is that it symbolized Christianity to him. Another popular theory is that he got it from a Norse Mythology symbol which is a Swastika made of lightning bolts.