The title says it all.. Are there any allied subs I can drive, or just Nazis ?

What are the final goal achivement parameters ? In other words, what makes you win a campaign ? Is it just sunken tonnage that reduces opposing force's supplies which stops the war or what..?

What exactly happens when you win a campaign in SH 3, does anyone know ?

Thx

Not too sure I like the tone of this thread. :rolleyes:

This is supposed to be a historical simulation. You can not win a campaign. Germany surrenderd May 1945.

You can only survive ....

Not following you..What exactly don't you like, again ?? Would it be a different perception for you if I rephrase it: Is this a Kriegsmarine (WWII German Navy, also known as Nazi Navy) sub sim only ? History and political correctness do not always go along together...

Still doesn't answer my main question: Any allied subs I can drive ?

Oh... so you don't win anything in SH 3 ?? Really ??? Hmmm.. where's the fun in that...

Yes its a Nazi sub sim only I'm afraid, so you are forced to read Mein Kampf and goose-step around the deck during the quieter moments.

Well, then move on to bigger and better things if there's no fun in SH3 for you...

:rolleyes:

Hey Rainer - hows it going ?

Damn... I was afraid of that...

god.. do yourself a favour..

You are still not answering my question: From what I just read - you do not win a campaign in SH 3, is this correct ? Anyone ???

Being of German decent myself I do take offense to the MISS USE of the term NAZI! You throw it around like it is an everyday phrase. I am a history buff and very seldom if at all during my watching of the History and Military channel do they throw around the word NAZI. You sound young and brash.

Hmmm.. Political correctness again..Getting too much in the way, lately...

Well, forget it for a moment, will ya? I still can't get a straight answer if there are any allied subs I can drive and if you can win a campaign in this sim...

The Nazis were a political party. Most members of Germany's military were not members of that party (it was not required).

You can drive only German subs.

The success of a U-boot commander was measured by how well he performed at his job. You might measure this against other SH3 players here or against the list of virtual skippers listed in the U-Boot Aces section in the game. Like blechritter said, it is a historically based sim . . . even if Germany had won the war, it is highly unlikely that any single u-boot commander would have been singly responsible.

it is true that the luftwaffe and the kreigsmarine were not nazi's.

indeed donitz himself was anti nazi, the only reason they were alive is because they could achieve things for the nazi regime.
but this is all way OT

Thank you!!!

So, a campaign is unwinnable in this sim, then..

Okay...

Speaking of Nazi as being a political party some things come to my mind if I remember History correctly.

How many Submariners belonged to the NAZI party or were devout Nazi’s at all for that reason. To my memory most did not care for and some even hated the Nazi party.

Thoughts?

Well, the war is unwinnable. The campaign is winnable in that your objective is to sink a lot of tonnage and advance in your career. But don't take that as a mincing of words, just trying to explain how the game works.

Yes, The only thing you take away is tonngage sunk and medals. You can not change the course of the war.

That's why there were sinking hospital ships and strafing civilian trains, I guess...

Like you said, this is way OT...

you're missing the point.. in pretty much any dynamic campaign its impossible to 'win' because the whole basis of a dynamic campaign is that you are part of something larger.

success in SH3 is more based on your tonnage totals compared to the other german skippers (im not sure if their totals are historically modelled or if they're dynamic, too)

Oh no no, I am not taking it the wrong way, don't worry.. I would like to understand the conditions to win a campaign and you just explained it to me..Thanks!!

Not true.. BoB, Falcon 4, EECH are dynamic and you win...

I guess what I am asking is this: Does a 1939 campaign end ? If yes, how ? What are the parameters/triggers that you have to hit to finish it ?

This sim is all about the journey, the destination is simply where you start a new one.

This is the best offline sim since Mig Alley or F4 IMO.

Any campaign you start will end when the war ends in 1945 or you die. Which ever comes first.

Don't know..

Nazi party members or not, I do know they were committing war crimes.. Sinking of hospital ships was just one of them.. Executing surrendering British sailors was another..

Doenitz was indicted in Nuremberg, if you remember...

I just want to get an idea what this sim can give me fun factor wise...

Any campaign you start will end when the war ends in 1945 or you die. Which ever comes first. [/QUOTE]

Oh.. Is that all ?... Hmmm..So, this is not about winning, like DBond said, it's about a journey.. Just keep sinking..

Well, all right.. I need to think about it..

Thank you guys!

that is called WAr mate, and its awfull.-

Allied did the same when they could.

Btw, if you expected a single submarine and its crew whinning the war + your reflections about germans/nazis, you must be 12 years old-

And they got court-martialled for it. This is what separates us from them...

What about Falcon 4, BoB, EECH ? One pilot can help to win a campaign ? Ever tried those sims ?

Reading Iron Coffins right now - these guys weren't as blood-thirsty as you might think - yes they wanted to help Germany win the war by destroying as many ships as possible - yet numerous times the captains passed up shooting at vulnerable escorts which were helping survivors from torpedeod ships because of an unwritten code...at one point even I was thinking I would have taken the shot - when the U-Boats and the author's pals were getting sunk at an incredible rate - yet this guy held his fire. Enemy yes, but most were maybe a bit more honorable then you think.

what "seperated them from us" re: trials is we won. We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in fire-bombing Japan and Germany. I don't have a problem with it - part of war they started - but to think we were much more moral then their run-of the mill soldiers/sailors (NOT Hitler et. al.) is a mistake. (although the Japanese were much more...'nasty'...overall - kill or be killed - period).

Even many American scholars agree that, relatively, the Kriegsmarine maintained a higher standard of conduct than any branch of any military during the war.

Anyways, refering to a piece of equipment (a submarine) by the name of a political party has nothing to do with political correctness. It's just plain ignorance.

This is getting too far off-topic...

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I'd like to see this topic closed, as Fencer1 has his answer now....

there is a .cfg file which has all the tonnage sunk by all the captains and their sinking dates
so i would guess they are historically accurate

Your point of view is to simple. I didn't hear anything of Churchill or the Airforce getting court-martialled for ordering the destruction of entire german cities with 10.000 civilians or more dead (e.g. Hamburg: 35.000 dead in one night). Just accepted it...it was war and nobody was the hero who was doing everything right. In my opinion the only thing that separated Germany from the other countries (in terms of atrocities) was the holocaust.

And he was found not guilty.

Edit: Sorry, I was wrong...he was in jail for 10 years...what means that he didn't commit any "major crimes" because then it was the death penalty.

Yeah I did...and they were different games. This game doesn't allow you to change history...accept it.

Alexander

Indeed, this thread needs to be locked. I find his off-hand comments uneducated and offensive.

All together now:

Hitler has only got one ball,
Khrushchev has two but small,
Himmler, has something similar,
But Geobbels has no balls at all.

Pass the piss pot Charlie.

Bollix, is all the band could play,
Suck ’em and throw the skins away,
Buy some, and you may try some,
But poor old Geobbels has no balls at all. Olay!

And here's some info about Karl Doenitz:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERdoenitz.htm

Knock yourselves out.

Cheers

Tom

no need to lock it - more interesting and valuable having a discussion, no?

Why are you all feeding the troll? Why not go carry on good discussions about this great sim?

Kess

the Germans were not some kind of evil non human freaks and they were not all nazis

Guys, chill... He's asking legit questions and everyone is turning this into another political debate.

Winning a dynamic campaign doesn't mean you win it alone with your ship... he never mentioned "Can I sink the entire Allied fleet with my sub?".

In Falcon 4 or EECH, you can win a dynamic campaign, yet you're not the only bird in the air... he's just asking if its possible to *win* the campaign as in other sims.

Oh, I am not questioning the quality of this sim.. I wouldn't call it dynamic or anything, since there is apparently no victory conditions represented in a campaign.. This is just a heavily scripted 360 degrees of freedom simulation that does not have a winning condition, that's all...

Something like Falcon 4 is my type of a sim.. Both sides are represented and both sides can win...

Just because you can't win, does that mean its not fun to play? I'm British, and settle for sinking British ships - the German U-Boats had better technology and were alot more active than British, American, or other allied submarines. Thats why they made it German-only. Maybe somebody will make a mod which will make other nations playable. Give the game a try, honestly, you wont be disappointed mate

EDIT

This could easily spill into a flame fest, so I vote everybody should drop it now

Oh..You mean comments like: "Nazis were criminals and Kriegsmarine submariners who were executing POW were criminals as well".. These kind of comments are uneducated ? Or the fact that I called a Kriegsmarine sub a Nazi sub ? German war machine was known as a Nazi war machine, I hope you are not arguing with this notion for your own sake...

If there is anyone uneducated and ignorant here...

Nope.. They were not..No argument here...Keep in mind, though, that it was called a Nazi Germany predominently populated with Nazi supporters and sympathizers, you be the judge how many of them were actually true Nazis.. You dont' have to be a member of a party to like the ideas...

This is getting off topic.. I got all the info I needed..

Thanks everyone!!!

Finally!! Thank you!!!

I was accused being a 12 year old, a uneducated ignoramus, but the truth is - the accusers are guilty of what they tried to judge me with...

played them too much, and most probably before you did.

as both F4 and EECH simulate fictionnal conflicts, its okay that the campaign generator is influenced by your actions.. but in Falcon4, for example, you do many more things than just fullfilling your mission and flying your plane.. you change ATO, you reorganise flights, you assign important sectors, choose the kind of missions etc etc.. things you dont do in SH3.-

+ in a modern conflict, aviation may WIN the war by itself..
in WWII, the Kriegsmarine couldnt win the war by itself.

As for BOB, I really dont like the idea that you can make the Luftwaffe win it. Because it shoudlnt.

Now, about martial court... sorry to break your sweet dreams, but I can tell you that no P51, p47 or P38 pilots were ever judged by martial courts after bringing us those famous straffing on "whatever moved" on their RTB after having done their escort duty. And im not judging them neither. this was war- (I think you are taking "JAG" too seriously as for "us and them" )

now. listen, sorry for the 12YO stuff, but some comments are really out of place-

It's basically a war of attrition. You may be sinking good tonnages but to affect the war ALL the uboats have to, and you have no control over that. If you were to sink FDR's or Churchill's ship on the way to Yalta maybe would make a diff but don't think that's in there...

Ok.. If Fencer1 would stick to the discussion of SH3, it would be OK... but he's not.

So....

Oh I don't have any problem to sink anyone in a game.. I am not the one who started this nonsense political frensy.. I call it as I see it - It was a Nazi war machine sub - hence a Nazi sub, but this is beside the point..

I can't figure for the life of me how or why can anyone be offended with me calling a WWII U-Boat a Nazi sub ?? What is this ? Nazi defenders ?

Anyway, if there were any victory conditions represented and the German side could win the campaign, I would settle with trying it out, no doubt...

Assuming Fencer1 is american, according to his logic,

American tanks are then ultimately "republican tanks"....

...the Republican war machinery...

...republican Soldiers in Iraq...

...republicans dropped the Nuke on Hiroshima...

...republican war crimes...


Can't we just "lock" this thread?


:rolleyes:

what is the rush to lock this thread? Who is offended by this discussion?

And it would be "democrat" war machine during ww2 - they were in charge then...

Winning conditions:

Engage shipping and dont get killed.

Losing conditions:

Engage shipping and get killed.

I seriously doubt it.. You sound...erm.. young and foolish... :p

That's what I wanted to know!!!


Really ?? Which ones???

Wonder what were those guys in Abu graib.. republicans or democrats ? same goes for the guys who shot my compatriot who was bringing Juliana Sgrena to freedom

thats how you start a flame plz lock. this is gettin nowhere.

Thanks for the correction...

Rainer,

Sorry to break it to you, bud, but if this is the way you think - you are an idiot!!

Sincerely,

Fencer

12 YO is an insult.. hopefully idiot is not

Aha.. since I get personally insulted here, where the heck are the moderators? I request this thread to be locked, better yet deleted..!

and, btw.. its funny to see you calling people young and foolish..

just look at what you have said so far.-

see - now it is getting personal - so locking is a smart option - why don't you guys apologize and back off?

I would GUESS - since they are in the military - that they were PROBABLY republican. Big majority of US active forces vote Repub.

Either way they are serving, and thats what really counts.

So, there is an American logic, huh...

What are you ? A Lybian ? Because you sure as hell sound like one...

LoL.. here we are.. so if you are lybian you are "evil" now ?

this is not american logic.. this is a ####### logic

It looks like most of you are fairly young kids around here.. mid 20s - mid 30s at the most.. None of you seem to care about what Nazis were...

I personally did not pick up any bias other than the righteous one from calling this game a Nazi submarine simulation. My generation will never forget..

That said, the guy who started this thread only asked if there was a point to this game beside sinking ships and whether it was winnable on the overall level..

Instead of giving him an idea what most of you did is you turned his questions into a doggone pathetic and ignorant bickering without any point to it...

Both sides were guilty of atrocities in the war, because any war is the atrocity in itself, but we sure as hell did not start it.. Nazis did..

-Rib out

Wow Fencer1...

I hope this thread gets locked.

Members of the party had their membership suspended once they joined the navy.

Read the case of Oscar Kusch:

Treatment of survivors by u-boat crews:

Not everything is black & white

This is all getting out of hand !
Either a mod need to lock this thread or just back off take a few deep breaths and discuss it in a logical tone.
I'm of German decent and had uncles on both sides of the war. And I imagine alot of people did. Thats not the point. He asked if the campaign is winable and he got his answer.
He was wrong in his phrasing but not imature about it at all.
All of us can be racist in 1 way or another, It just depends on who you talk to.
Life is short so enjoy the sim for what it's worth " IT'S A GAME" for heavens sake.
Politics set aside.
I can sink German,American,British,Japanese or any other country I can think of.Why because it's a Game and hate to say it but computer code don't have feelings!

The point is that National Socialism was a political party and an ideology. You can not use the term Nazi as an equivalent for German for the time when Nazis were in power, because it is both too broad and too narrow at the same time. Not all Germans were Nazis and not all Nazis were German. Nazi is also a temporal term. Nothing is innately "Nazi." No inanimate object was ever Nazi, because inanimate objects can neither join political causes nor hold ideologies. It is not offensive or politically incorrect to refer to a submarine as Nazi. It just makes you sound dumb, for the same reason you would considered so if referred to the VW Bug as the "Nazi Bug."

edit: one exception for inanimate objects that can be "Nazi": symbols unique to the party/ideology, but even this can be taken too far (e.g. the swastika was not a symbol unique to the Nazi party, but one appropriated by it).

AKDavis
For once you and I agree!

I do think Fencer was throwing stones into still water (as it were) with the title of this thread and it's obviously going to get some people's backs up.
It's not done in the historical gaming community. Important to realise I think.

However, if we're being historical, it was the norm during WWII to describe German pilots as 'Nazi fliers' and a/c as 'Nazi Bombers' etc..etc..
Despite the respect the Allied troops had for their opponants as fighting men, I think they did feel themselves to be part of a war against an oppressive regime. The fact that 'we' won is not the only basis for regarding Germany of the time as evil. Children of all ages were required to join a youth organisation, which after a short period meant the Hitler Youth. By early war most young men would have been through this brainwashing process. They were schooled to have contempt for non-Aryans and weaklings. This absolutely did not happen in any of the European democracies.
Not using the term 'Nazi' on these forums is a form of very necessary politeness to those who are interested in the German military, Navy, Airforce etc...of the '40s, but I do find it worrying when people insinuate it was just a war between nations and all combatants were on an equal moral ground. To my mind this is dangerous. My mother's family were refugees from Austria in '38 and were persecuted by the 'average' population of their country of birth. It must not be forgotten.

S! Comp

Of course we 'kids' care. The way to best defeat something is to trivialize it.

Because that something is fear. It was FDR's great insight that it was not Nazism per se, but our fear of it, that was the real threat. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Now, today's rule-by-fear Republicans are incurring the label of 'fascist' themselves.

It is important to be able to get past the mistakes of the past.

Fencer1's attempt to perpetuate that fear of long ago only mires the rest of us in his intolerance. For those of us who don't even think such political distinctions are even worth mentioning in this 'game'.

"rule by fear" republicans?..meaning what?
I hear/read the comparisons all the time - but anyone who equates the Republicans of today to the Nazis of the 30s and 40s needs to realize just how evil those guys were. Disagree with Bush and his policies fine, but to equate him with Hitler - who ordered the extermination of MILLIONS and caused the deaths of hundreds of millions is crazy.

This is the most ignorant comment I have read as of yet...Republicans did not create the fear of airplanes falling on our heads, neither did they perpetuate sadistic regimes to stay in power, like your liberal friends did

Actually, it is a LOT MORE IMPORTANT to learn on mistakes of the past.. No more Jimmy Carter's horsesh*t kissing ayatolla's asses and leaving hostages in Iran for a year and letting those psychotic lunatics brainwash their young with fanatic extremism...

I don't think you actually read what the guy was asking about.. Take a deep breath and read his questions, do yourself a favor, will ya...

Hi,

This may not be the correct thread or even forum to express my views on this very "difficult" situation and subject, but here goes!

Is it just me? But I feel that the events portrayed in this sim are still a little too close to home for comfort. The Battle of the Atlantic was a brutal and hard fought campaign, with many of the survivors scarred mentally and physically for life. Many of these people are still alive today.

Although interested in submarine warfare sims, I think that I would feel less than easy in sinking merchant vessels with crews made up of simulated merchant seamen. (Civilians). Particularily in the early years of the war, when the U boats had free rein and before the development of Asdic and naval search radar. Thousands of civilian sailors were slaughtered and were virtually defenceless.

Perhaps we will get a sim that exclusively covers such subjects as the bombing of civilians in Warsaw, Coventry, Dresden and Tokyo before long too? I sincerely hope not! But is there any real difference to bombing civilians or sinking/drowning them trying to bring food supplies etc, to an island nation that was alone?

I personally have no probs with war sims that pit militaries against militaries in a realistic and historical setting. But to me, feeling satisfaction over destroying hundreds of sim lives (many of them civilian)in a single sortie, seems like a sim too far!

On a personal level, my Uncle, a Merchant Seaman, lost his life in the Battle of the Atlantic. He was 16 years old.

Regards
Alan.

When you look at the tail fin of a WW2 German aircraft, you see the symbol of the Nazi Party. When you look at the deck of the Bismarck, you see the symbol of the Nazi Party. Pilot wings, flags on the staff cars, battle standarts, flags over public buildings, you see the symbol of the Nazi party. The national flag of Germany was the same as the Nazi party. Hence the use of the term Nazi when referring to the Germans, members of the party or not.

When you see the tail fin, flag on a ship, staff car, public building,etc of an American unit you see the American Flag, not the elephant of the Republicans or the donkey of the Democrats.

As for the German navy, it was the least nazified of the Armed Forces. To quote Hitler, "I have a reactionary army, a Christian navy, and a National socialist air force."

Look up the Laconia incident. The attacks on the U-Boats during rescue operations after the sinking of the Laconia resulted in the Laconia Order, for which Donitz was tried and aquitted.

This seems as good a place as any to express your opinion.

Like it or not, unfortunately the Battle of the Atlantic, like The Battle of Britian, the attack on Pearl Harbor, D-Day etc. etc., is a part of history. This sim portrayal of the life and death struggle seems comparitively accurate, and besides reading books on the subject and watching Das Boot is the 'best' way to experience what it was like to be in charge of a U-Boat during ww2.

While it may not be for everybody, this is (as sims go) the way it was - do your utmost to have your side win, doing what it takes to survive, and always the struggle of good vs evil, when "the good" is whatever side you are on.

Hi

Very true and I would be the last person to deny history. But by your logic you could say that the concentration camps were part of history, so hey! lets have a sim portraying the running and administration of a death camp! it would be "fun" to see if we can beat the quotas of the other camps!

I don't think so!

regards
Alan.

The Vichy French government changed many of the national symbols after coming into power. Were all French men and women who lived on soil over which this new symbology was flown Vichy French? Even the Resistance?

It's the symbology that is Nazi, not the object, unless the object itself is a symbol. Remove the symbology and you remove the ideology (from an object). See German (Nazi, whatever) equipment in use by other countries during and after the war.

Now people are a whole different story, because you can remove the symbol and leave behind the ideology (thus the foolishness in focusing on symbols rather than underlying ideologies).

Great point - but honestly and unfortunatley, IF a company could get away with it - it would probably depend on how much of a market there would be for it! There was an "assinate JFK" sim not too long ago, alot of bad press, but published just the same.

Calling germans in general "Nazis" is the most adolecent comment I have ever heard. My wife is german. My father in law was in the Hitler youth. So does that make ne a Nazis or him even?
My Grandfather killed germans in norway. My Uncle sunk a U-boat of the St.Lawrence river(corvette). He never once called them nazis. They were well respected german sailors.
This is the attitude people get when they only read American History books. Jeesh,.....the lameness of it all. The Kreigsmarine had nothing to do with the Third Reich Politics.

Try reading Captain Langsdorff accounts of the battle of river plate (Graff Spee). He even speaks of Admiral Rader and his disgust for them.


Anyway

Cheers

Boxcar

Anyways, no game should force reflection of history upon someone. It is up to the individual user as to whether they can reflect on their in-game experience in relation to history. Obviously, there are many here sensitive enough to reflect on the fact that the action in the game, although in no way evil or immoral in and of itself, reflects upon past actions that were very much real. For others, they would never make the connection. Even if the game displayed a message every time you sank a ship that said, "What you just did was evil. You are a Nazi," they would not be brought an inch closer to deeper understanding or sensitivity to history, but nor would they be any closer to being a Nazi in real life.

Great Jumping Jehosaphat, I can't go outside to work on the fence for three hours before someone posts a thread first asking if this is a Nazi U-boat simulation (the goosestep response is classic btw) and then comparing the current administration to Adolf Hitler's regime. Besides the fact that the insinuation is insulting to about 48% of the US population it is a political fight, something verbotten here.

Closed Gentlemen.

Fencer, if you feel compelled to ask a question concerning the game and its game design I advise you to ask it in a way that doesn't insult several thousand gamers. It seems you have already made a decision about the game before you posted this.