well sort of not dead

Like everyone else, I am really looking forward to Sub Command. I have one question though. I realize Sonalysts is in a very good position to have a lot of info about the 688I and Seawolf submarines and their systems. But how much info about the Akula in publicly known? I assume much of the info about its performance and systems capability is still very classified by the Russian government. Will its sim likeness be based mostly on speculation? Also, since the Akula is no doubt inferior in most respects to the 688i and Seawolf (exspecially in terms of electronics, detection sytems, computer integration and weaponry - the most important feautures of a modern sub) how will it be competitive in the multiplayer aspect? Will there just be more of them in most multiplayer (and single-player) missions?

The Akula IIs are hardly inferior to the 688Is. They have borrowed (read acquired) rafting technology from the west that has allowed them to operate previously noisy machinery at a quieter signature. She also boasts anechoic tiling. Ever notice that when a US sub is out of the water her prop is covered? Well it isn't just the shape that is classified, but also the methods and machinery used to mill them. Machinery the Russians were able to finagle from Hitachi several years ago. Also, despite our SOSUS nets, Akula IIs have approached US shores several times (6 times the year before) and remained undetected until they departed. The Russians are experts at bastion operations which is due to their under ice expertise. This will be the real battleground as America attempts to locate and sink Delta IVs and Typhoons guarded by Akulas. The Akula II is faster than a 688I and has a greater operating depth. Also she carries and 533mm torpedoes (21 inch) as well as an anti-surface ship torpedo that noses out at over 600mm. One could possibly sink a carrier. She is quite a lethal adversary. Of course I see her as the vessel of choice. The dynamic campaign will be interesting and they will doubtless include a mission builder as well. In this era of heightened US military presence and the liklihood that the Bush administration will enhance the military, we will probably see a grand rebirth in the Sim market.

I don't know where you got your info, but as a former STS1 (SS), I can tell you that the Akula and Akula II class boats ARE inferior in almost every way to our boats.

They are roughly on par with the 688 Flight I boats, but their sonar systems are no where near as good as ours. Not even remotely close.

Current 688i boats, Flight III and later, are more than a match for any Akula boat. Our boats are much quieter and far more automated. Our onboard sensor systems are several generations more advanced than their best systems, and our offboard sensors are several orders of magnitude better.

The Seawolf class currently has NO match.

Russian at sea tactics have changed as well. In the 70's, 80's, and the early 90's, they were doing the "Boomer Bastion" thing, but in recent years they have shifted to a new tactic of escorted roaming patrols. These patrols are still on quite a short leash, but they are not crippled like before into hiding under the ice in a pre-defined bastion. This, as you can imagine, makes things a bit more difficult for the hunters.

The Toshiba-Kongsberg scandal is old news, and although they were able to jump, almost overnight, several years ahead of where they were in terms of screw fabrication technology, the actual impact on submarine warfare was less effective than the impact of the traitor John Walker. Were their screws quieter afterwareds? Yes. But our sonar systems are so advanced that the quieting was nearly negated. Detection ranges decreased only slighlty overall.

There is a very slight speed difference, which I will not go into for security reasons, and yes, she does have a deeper rated crush depth.

The Akula is a nice boat, yes. But not by a long shot would she be the vessel of choice. I'll take the Puerto Rican Lady any day over an Akula.

-Skater

[This message has been edited by Skater (edited 04-12-2001).]

What our systems are capable of matters very little. The fact remains that despite our "superior sonar" the Russians have walked in to the beach, swatted our butt and walked back out before detection. Are you still in touch with your community? Apparently not or you would know that a single incident (hint Med area) has everyone waiting to see Trafalger grade towed arrays on Russian boats. And the bastion comment? Uh hello! We're talking about the game! Reality check. Ever hear of the mythical Janes 688I Under Ice Campaign? What every one wanted to see as part of the SubSim Review Save my 688 petition from Neal Stevens. We (gamers - that is those of us which are visiting this site that are currently in the service and all of the others that are not) will have the opportunity to spend long nights with imaginary Russians under ice. Sims have to brush up and wallow in realism to please some yet keep the game tense and exciting to please the rest. I've spoken with Kim Castro before and more than once. They will likely be aiming for more 'Hunt for Red OCtober' and less 688I H/K.

[This message has been edited by Hatchet (edited 04-12-2001).]

I doubt they have any more info on Seawolf than they do on Akula. A large share of 688I information is still classified, much less their latest and greatest darling.

This game will no doubt be making just as many guesses and fudges as their last sub game did.

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-Mekhazzio Sssth'rhee, Magedragon at large

Hatchet is right, the Akula II is very much the equal of the 688(I) by all published accounts. The difference is the level of training and time at sea. Russia is cash-poor and their investment in training is less than the US.

I only know what I've read and what I've been told by those who claim to know, and I doubt they know as much as they claim. When dealing with military equipment, much is open to speculation. A good war would prove out the best stuff and hopefully that won't happen.

Neal

PS: Mek, you're certainly right, the game will have some guesswork built in and there probably will be areas where Sonalysts knows the true capabilities but they won't represent this 100% in the game. Otherwise one of the first orders would be Fed-ex'd to Red Square!




[This message has been edited by SUBSIM (edited 04-12-2001).]

Ok im gonna sound crazy..but Im not. The April 2001 issue of Popular Science has an article about the Kursk and a little thing about the torp it was testing. The 100-RU Veder torpedo (NATO, SS-N-16A Stallion). The torp looks quite deadly if Russia can get it to work. 200 mile range, capable of mounting a mini-nuclear warhead, rocket-propelled....quite nasty. If this is in the sim..either in the initial release or as a user-mod (if that can happen)....the Akula will be very deadly, very quickly....personally I cant wait to take an Akula out for a spin and take out some US ships.

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You will never know I am there.....until you see me explode.

[This message has been edited by The Dead (edited 04-13-2001).]

Relax bro, I was not slamming you.

I am very much in touch with my community. In fact, I was at Groton last weekend. That incident in the Med should not pose to be a problem, we're pretty sure that the array worked itself loose and dropped away. The mechanical transients did not continue after a little more than an hour. Even so, replacement of their current tech TA's with reverse engineered western TA's is a very slim chance. VERY SLIM.

My comment on the Bastions was meant to inform, not ridicule. You're a bit touchy aren't you? While I have not played the 688I Under Ice Campaign (does it even exist), I have played 688I. I found it to be laughable in it's realism, and almost unlplayable because of the gross errors present in the game. I can't even call it a sim really. As a caveat, I never played it with any user-created mods or patches, so... It may be a whole different animal now. I got disgusted pretty quick, and it left my drive shortly thereafter. In my opinion, the best modern sub sim ever, was Sierra's Fast Attack. Too bad it was so buggy, and had NO support whatsoever from Sierra. I still have that one on my drive, and it still amazes me how good it was.

I'm lookinbg forward to this one, as I do with every sim that is to be released, but I will be viewing it with a jaded eye. 688I burned me, after all it's realism claims, and I never forgot that. Fleet Command burned me for the second time, and I'm not forgetting that either. So this is Sonalyst's third shot from my end... I hope they make good on their promises.

-Skater

I am in agreement for the most part, especially on the Akula II, but not on the Seawolf. These days, thanks to Mr. Clinton, info on Submarines is pretty widely available. Shocking things really. One needs to only watch a certain movie to see REAL displays and a REAL screw design, and REAL consoles, that I was always told, and as far as I know still is, CLASSIFIED. There is a lot of info out there on the Seawolf. Probably everything just short of actual performance values and onboard sensor capabilities.

Hell, the submarine community has virtually had to "sing" for it's supper in recent years, or face total emasculation at the hands of Mr. Clinton's bean counters.

As far as I am concerned, the Russians are still doing it right, and keeping their fringgin' mouths and their hatches closed to the outside world. That is why there is little public domain knowledge on the Akula II.

-Skater

I disagree Neal. The Akula II is, from my knowledge on the boat, closer to a Flight II 688. One boat I was on was the lead-in boat for the Flight III's, and believe me, she is much different in capability from the Flight II, and she has been further upgraded since. Her capabilities now, far outstrip her capabilities when she was launched. This is true for most of the Flight III boats. The Akula II is like the Flight II (late models) in acoustic signature, and like the early Flight II's in sensor capabilities. She has very advanced weapons systems however. Fire Control is still at about the 688 Flight I level however.

In my assessment, the Akula II is a step forward from the original Akula, but not a very big one. We still maintain the foward edge in the Flight III 688 class, the Seawolf class, and the new Virginia class boats.

-Skater