Skater or Pygmy,

You guys ever involved in any joint exercises with Canadian Navy ships / crew ?
Just wondering 'cause here in Canada the Navy takes a real kicking over the lack of combat power they could exert. I was just interested to see how the Canadian Navy is regarded by other Navy personnel outside of Canada ?

Canada has a Navy???




Just kidding.

Yes, I have been on ops with the Canadian Navy.

They are a very professional bunch, despite their diminished numbers. Also, they are real good sub hunters despite the poor equipment level.

-Skater

I've never had the opportunity to work with Canada's Navy. I did work with some MP units in Mogadishu, who did nothing but impress me when on ops.

-Pete

It continues to amaze me how our Navy continues to operate with a few modern frigates, some seriously aging P-3 airframes,
and a bunch of Sea Kings that keep falling out of the air.

Hopefully, the new Upholder class subs and Cormorant helos will improve the situation, but I mean during the Gulf war we were bolting WW II era MGs and Phalanx point-defense systems onto our ships. It makes me wonder how we can fulfill any of our NATO duties.

- Andy

Sorry, but Canada's ASW capability is not POOR, as you put it Skater. Our City Class ships are probably the most advanced ships in the world for ASW under 8000 tons, and the USN has examined them at great length. Also, one of our crappy old Oberon class desiel/electric subs "sank" a Carrier, and Perry Frigate, and another vessel in an exercise against the USN 4 years ago, and it got away clean afterwards.

Did y'all (that is American for "you") know that Canada had the 2nd largest navy in the world in terms of number of combat vessels at one point? Crazy, huh.

Today's Canadian Armed forces, if you inlude army, navy, and air force, have less than 10,000 people who actualy have a "combat" job. That is out of over 100,000, not counting reserves. There is also more junior grade officers (1st Lt and under) in the air force than there is privates in THE ENITRE ARMY. What a joke.

[This message has been edited by Gman (edited November 28, 1999).]

[Quote]Today's Canadian Armed forces, if you inlude army, navy, and air force, have less than 10,000 people who actualy have a "combat" job. That is out of over 100,000, not counting reserves. There is also more junior grade officers (1st Lt and under) in the air force than there is privates in THE ENITRE ARMY. What a joke.[\Quote]

I think this is indicative of most modern armed forces. The addage too many cooks spool the meal comes to mind.

-Pete

Heh, what it reminds me of is the old TIN TIN cartoon novels. There was one that took place in a South American country that had 5000 Generals and 300 Privates. It isn't quite that bad, but it's damn close.

Any of you US serviceman notice this? There is almost NO sargents in the Canadian armed forces at all. I know 45 year old master corporals, and I believe there are more MCP's than any other enlisted rank. Stupid!

Sorry, but Canada's ASW capability is not POOR, as you put it Skater.

I never said it was poor, just that the majority of the ASW equipment was not at a cutting edge level. And truly, it is not. Few of your platforms are at even a current level of technology.

Our City Class ships are probably the most advanced ships in the world for ASW under 8000 tons, and the USN has examined them at great length.

Yes, we have, but they are not the most advanced, even for it's tonnage class, but they are extremely capable. Unfortunately, Canada has few of these platforms in service, and even less planned. I am not positive, but I believe that there is only one being considered for funding at this time.

Also, one of our crappy old Oberon class desiel/electric subs "sank" a Carrier, and Perry Frigate, and another vessel in an exercise against the USN 4 years ago, and it got away clean afterwards.

Okay. If you say so.

Did y'all (that is American for "you") know that Canada had the 2nd largest navy in the world in terms of number of combat vessels at one point? Crazy, huh.

That was a loooong time ago bub. And past tense does not count in a shooting war.

Today's Canadian Armed forces, if you inlude army, navy, and air force, have less than 10,000 people who actualy have a "combat" job. That is out of over 100,000, not counting reserves. There is also more junior grade officers (1st Lt and under) in the air force than there is privates in THE ENITRE ARMY. What a joke.

Wow... that's not even a funny joke. I sincerely hope it's not true.

-Skater

Well, I'd like you to prove wrong regarding the City Class ships. They are more advanced than the Perry and Arleigh Burke class ships in the ASW department. This of course does not include any aviation assets(helos), where Canada is far, far behind. And yes, I realize the twin bofors guns and the Sea Sparrow is a joke, but we're talking ASW here. They are also the bulk of our surface fleet now, so your point about us not having many of them isn't entirely accurate. We don't have many of them compared to the USN's frigate/destroyer fleet, but compared to the rest of the world and our own Navy we do. There are currently 12 Halifax class ships in the fleet, and they are probably the most automated and easy to fight ships in existence. Take a look at the crew compliment and you'll see what I mean.
http://www.hmcsregina.com/ABOUT/ABOUT.HTM http://www.dnd.ca/navy/marcom/halifaxe.html

And yes our Naval strength was huge at one point (end of WW2), but not now, and that was my point.

As for the excerise data, you can check that from numerous Canadian sources, as it was a much heralded accomplishment I got sick of hearing about long ago. The sub in question penetrated the CBG's ASW screen during a simulated air raid, and another American SSN was also simulating an attack, and the Canadian sub probably got lucky since the defences were being overloaded. If you know of a tougher threat than a D/E sub on battaries I'd like to know about it. Sure they're slow, but against a CBG moving at 25+ knots, if you are positioned downrange, you need to be silent more than you need to be fast. And the one thing the Oberon is, is quiet.

And finaly yes, I wasn't joking, our force structure is that bad.



[This message has been edited by Gman (edited November 29, 1999).]

Well, I'd like you to prove wrong regarding the City Class ships. They are more advanced than the Perry and Arleigh Burke class ships in the ASW department.

Negative K. They are impressive for their size though. Definitely better than the OHP's, but not the AB's. Their ASW systems consist of the following:


AN/SQS-510 Hull Mounted Sonar

Nice, but there are better HMS systems in use today, not just in the USN, but other Navies, and even better ones to be relased very soon and incorporated in the newer Arliegh Burke ships.

AN/SQR-19(V) Canadian Towed Array Sonar System

This is a version of the TA that most newer USN ships use, the Canadian version is detuned for National Security reasons.

AN/ Sonobouy Processing System

Not sure which system you are using here, but the system being installed on the newest of the Arliegh Burke Class ships is the most advanced in the world right now (not even the newer Tico class ships are being equipped with this).

This of course does not include any aviation assets(helos), where Canada is far, far behind.

This is the biggest and best ASW asset that a surface ship can weild versus a sub. An advanced ASW ship without an advanced ASW air asset is like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.


And yes, I realize the twin bofors guns and the Sea Sparrow is a joke, but we're talking ASW here. They are also the bulk of our surface fleet now, so your point about us not having many of them isn't entirely accurate. We don't have many of them compared to the USN's frigate/destroyer fleet, but compared to the rest of the world and our own Navy we do. There are currently 12 Halifax class ships in the fleet, and they are probably the most automated and easy to fight ships in existence. Take a look at the crew compliment and you'll see what I mean.

I don't know about how easy they are to fight, or how much more automated it is than the Tico's or AB's, or whether that's even a good thing or not. I do know that 12 ships is barely a fleet, and I stand on my comment. You do not have enough, let alone many.

As for the excerise data, you can check that from numerous Canadian sources, as it was a much heralded accomplishment I got sick of hearing about long ago.

I heard about it too, but the datum I got was much different.

The sub in question penetrated the CBG's ASW screen during a simulated air raid, and another American SSN was also simulating an attack, and the Canadian sub probably got lucky since the defences were being overloaded.

They were, and according to what I heard...

The outer ASW screen was destroyed by a previous simulated air attack. The SSN had executed a close-range Harpoon attack, that caused some damage to the escorts and A LOT of confusion, and was being chased off by two of the three remaining ASW escorts.

The CVN had been damaged in the initial air attack, and the simulated damage limited her to 27 knots.

The carrier was then jumped by the Oberon, which was lying in wait for her, in a close range torp attack, and two fish found their mark as helo's were sounding the Oberon with their VDS in response to sonobuoy activity. S-3's were vectored in, and the Oberon was sunk trying to escape by the S-3's, after being boxed in by the helo's.

The CVN was severely damaged, but was not sunk. The Captains of the two Tico escorts maneuvered their ships into a blocking of the Carrier and were sunk by two of the Oberon's 4 fish. Their actions resultied in the saving of the Carrier.

As usual, the Nixie did not work.

Air operations aboard the CVN were severely hampered but not halted.

THANK GOD this was all simulated, and THANK GOD I am not a dipdunk Surface Warfare puke!

I have said it before and I will say it again... All surface ships are nothing but targets for well-Captained submarines. Period.

If you know of a tougher threat than a D/E sub on battaries I'd like to know about it.

I don't. All D/E's on batts are QUIET and DEADLY.

Sure they're slow, but against a CBG moving at 25+ knots, if you are positioned downrange, you need to be silent more than you need to be fast. And the one thing the Oberon is, is quiet.

True. She is. She is slow on batts though, and she can't accellerate worth a damn. Once located on active, she is toast for the fish on the S-3's and helos.

And finaly yes, I wasn't joking, our force structure is that bad.

Too bad. It's a damn shame.

-Skater

Whew... This is quite the little session isn't it ? Actually, as a Canuck I have to admit that our Navy appears to complete tasks because of the quality of our people, not our equipment. And that is too bad for our good people.

Now to continue the debate, I have a friend in the forces ( Halifax ) who says that some of the Navy officers figure that the new City Class frigates are " noisy " as hell and Skater brought up an extremely valid point about our ASW helos, as they keep falling out of the air. Even worse on the local news last week a story aired about how Canada may be without any Sea Kings, for 3 years while awaiting the delivery of new Cormorants.

Is it a NATO requirement that you have to have a military? Otherwise, it does not seem that Canada would need a military - who's going to attack?

Those Greenlanders and Eskimo's can be pesky little bastards!



-Skater

All excellent points Skater, probably the best concise answers I've heard from anybody.

You are of course correct, 12 ships is not nearly enough, and our 4 Tribal Class Destroyers are older than the hills. But for a nation of less than 30 million people, and being one of the closest and most trusted Allies of the biggest and strongest Naval power in history, we ain't doing too bad. If we ever get the Upholder class SSK's purchased from the Brits, we'll have a good, albeit small fleet.

On the airpower issue, you won't find an argument with me, or anybody else who is in tune with that issue. I've seen video of a Sea king fly apart at an air show once, and it was a hella ugly thing to watch. Between that and the half dozen or so other helos we've lost, we need something better, and not some stupid Canadian made EH-101, that doubles as a SAR bird.

We should buy dedicated ASW helo's from the USN's contractors. They are cheaper than the models that have been selected by the Canadian armed forces, and are better suited and specificaly designed for the assigned task. Crazy.

As for our force structure, a little more data.

We have about 120 CF-18 Hornets in operation, and less than 50 CF-5s. They are split between 2 airbases (again..crazy), Bagotville, and Cold Lake. We have several infantry regiments, and one armoured brigade, which was considered to be very capable in the old Euro theather in the bad old days, but I think that Leopard 1's are way too old, even after all the upgrades. Then add in the previously mentioned Naval power, and that is IT in terms of our actual combat strength. Oh, and BTW, our regiments are similar to a battalion in actual fighting strength. LAME!

[This message has been edited by Gman (edited November 29, 1999).]

Their is only one reason we need a Navy - to keep the Spanish and Porteguese trawlers out of the 200 mile limit.

As far as the 101s go I agree. I watched a flight demonstration at the Shearwater Airshow in September. It was an impressive helo for it's size, but we need a dedicated aircraft. Probably be cheaper to buy some HINDs and " navalize " them. Wouldn't ya just love to see the looks on the faces of foreign fleet captains then !

Honestly, I think the best thing that the Canadian Navy could do is to add an order to the USN's order for SeaHawk's. Thwey do the ASW and ASR roles and much more. They are extremely capable, and solid rotary-wing aircraft. Excellent at both of their primary roles. The added order would likely result in a lower flyaway cost for both Navies.

-Skater

I think the Seahawk route would be the way to go...Do all the Seahawks have an autopilot like the Coast Guard's Jayhawk ? It would certainly reduce the wear and tear on the pilot.

Well, I have not ridden in all the variants of the SeaHawk, but of the ones I have, including BlackHawks (only been in the MH-60 types), they do have an auto-hover, which is what I think you are referring to. All modern helicopers have an autopilot, I believe.

-Skater