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#481020 - 05/10/05 02:06 AM What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Dumbo Offline
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...that I don't already have with the 0.99 patch?

In short, if the differences are minor at best, am I better off just saving my money?


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#481021 - 05/10/05 05:44 AM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Greatly improved Ocean, Clouds, DM, and Weather for starters. Time will tell. They are just fixing bugs right now so it should be coming out in a month or "two weeks". \:D


Intel core I7 4790K @ 4.4
Asus Maximus Hero VII Motherboard
16 gigs DDR3 2133
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#481022 - 05/10/05 05:55 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Dumbo Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chivas:
Greatly improved Ocean, Clouds, DM, and Weather for starters.
Improved over what BDG had done with the game? That's my question.


Dumbo
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Intel Core i7-6700 processor 3.4 Ghz
Asus Strix GeForce GTX960 4GB graphics card
Kingston 240GB SSD hard drive
Gigabyte Z170X GAMING 3 mobo
Cougar RS 650 watt power supply
Kingston 8GB PC4-2133 desktop RAM
Windows 10 Premium 64 OEI
24" Dell LCD monitor
CH Fighterstick/ProPedals
TrackIR 5-Pro
#481023 - 05/10/05 06:20 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Yes. improved over 0.99, but don't forget that the BDG are working on this with Shockwave as well. Ocean, clouds and weather are all reworked and there are many other very significant changes.

#481024 - 05/10/05 07:49 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Chivas Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dumbo_AK32nd:
Quote:
Originally posted by Chivas:
Greatly improved Ocean, Clouds, DM, and Weather for starters.
Improved over what BDG had done with the game? That's my question.
And thats my answer. \:D


Intel core I7 4790K @ 4.4
Asus Maximus Hero VII Motherboard
16 gigs DDR3 2133
EVGA GTX980Ti
Oculus Rift
LG 37" LCD
BLack Mamba III Joystick
Cougar Throttle/X55 Throttle/Saitek Levers
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#481025 - 05/10/05 07:50 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Don't forget that despite BDG 0.99 being a very good improvement in terms of graphics they still use old DirectX technology (maybe DirectX 6 or 7?) and the new BoBII uses DirectX 9 technology brings much more improvements than what older DirectX could ever offer.
And not te mention the bugs (which are many) that the old BoB (even with BDG 0.99 installed) has!

#481026 - 05/11/05 04:41 AM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Dumbo Offline
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Thanks, everybody...sounds like it's worth the price of admission! \:\)


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Intel Core i7-6700 processor 3.4 Ghz
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Kingston 240GB SSD hard drive
Gigabyte Z170X GAMING 3 mobo
Cougar RS 650 watt power supply
Kingston 8GB PC4-2133 desktop RAM
Windows 10 Premium 64 OEI
24" Dell LCD monitor
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#481027 - 05/11/05 12:10 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Part of why I'll buy it is just on principle. Some of these same guys worked thier butts off for free before Shockwave picked up the project. Besides, I heard rumor a while back that Shockwave might do something similar to EEAH/EECH, I hope they do, and I hope they do it the same way by bringing Gotcha and the other guys on board that have done the mods for it to this point.

Rick


Rick Miller
#481028 - 05/11/05 12:14 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Dumbo Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RickMiller48:
Part of why I'll buy it is just on principle. Some of these same guys worked thier butts off for free before Shockwave picked up the project.
Good point, Rick...I'll drink to that one!


Dumbo
pilot

Intel Core i7-6700 processor 3.4 Ghz
Asus Strix GeForce GTX960 4GB graphics card
Kingston 240GB SSD hard drive
Gigabyte Z170X GAMING 3 mobo
Cougar RS 650 watt power supply
Kingston 8GB PC4-2133 desktop RAM
Windows 10 Premium 64 OEI
24" Dell LCD monitor
CH Fighterstick/ProPedals
TrackIR 5-Pro
#481029 - 05/12/05 11:28 AM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Dumbo,
Impressive system specs you have got there ;\)

One question: What is your experience with the Acer LCD and a sim like BoB? I have long been planning to buy an LCD, but always hesitated because a lot of people told me LCDs are still not good enough for games...

#481030 - 05/12/05 06:04 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Dumbo Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teefax:
One question: What is your experience with the Acer LCD and a sim like BoB? I have long been planning to buy an LCD, but always hesitated because a lot of people told me LCDs are still not good enough for games...
I had heard the same thing a few years back, but I believe that's outdated info now. My two flight sims...BoB and FB+AEP+PF...look spectacular on this baby!

And the model I have is on the lower end of Acer's product range. Their website recommends it for everyday computer stuff...in other words, it's not their "gaming" LCD.

But if my games look this good on their "everyday" LCD, it makes me wonder what they'd look like on their "gaming" LCD! And would it be worth the extra money?

For the price I paid (I got a deal on a floor model), I am very happy with it...a significant upgrade from my old no-name 17" CRT!


Dumbo
pilot

Intel Core i7-6700 processor 3.4 Ghz
Asus Strix GeForce GTX960 4GB graphics card
Kingston 240GB SSD hard drive
Gigabyte Z170X GAMING 3 mobo
Cougar RS 650 watt power supply
Kingston 8GB PC4-2133 desktop RAM
Windows 10 Premium 64 OEI
24" Dell LCD monitor
CH Fighterstick/ProPedals
TrackIR 5-Pro
#481031 - 05/12/05 09:12 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Chivas Offline
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I tried the Samsung 213 21" and it was beautiful until I changed views while in full cockpit. There was alot of ghosting even with the 16ms response time. I ended up taking it back for a MultiSync FP2141sb CRT. I guess is all in the eye of the beholder, but I would wait, especially since you can get a great CRT alot cheaper.

AMD64 3800+
Nvidia 6800GT OC
2 gig of 2.2.2.5.ram


Intel core I7 4790K @ 4.4
Asus Maximus Hero VII Motherboard
16 gigs DDR3 2133
EVGA GTX980Ti
Oculus Rift
LG 37" LCD
BLack Mamba III Joystick
Cougar Throttle/X55 Throttle/Saitek Levers
Saitek Pro Rudder pedals
Voice Activation Controls
#481032 - 05/12/05 11:24 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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They have them down to 8ms for 19". No more ghosting. I'm not sure for a 21" though.


Buzz
#481033 - 05/13/05 12:31 AM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Lemon Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chivas:
I tried the Samsung 213 21" and it was beautiful until I changed views while in full cockpit. There was alot of ghosting even with the 16ms response time. I ended up taking it back for a MultiSync FP2141sb CRT. I guess is all in the eye of the beholder, but I would wait, especially since you can get a great CRT alot cheaper.

AMD64 3800+
Nvidia 6800GT OC
2 gig of 2.2.2.5.ram
Response Time is wildy different depending on the colour the pixel is fading to and from. Accordingly its easy to setup an equation that'll give monitor X from manufacter X 16ms or even 8ms. Some displays that are market as 25ms won't ghost on you. Its a bad case of see it in person and YMMV.

#481034 - 05/13/05 05:55 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Dumbo Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teefax:
One question: What is your experience with the Acer LCD and a sim like BoB?
One minor detail I neglected to point out...and it is minor.

On my new 19" Acer LCD, the BoB menu screens do not fill out the whole screen. Instead, they appear as "windows" in the center of the screen with a large black edge around it. There might be a way to fix this (anybody?), but I couldn't find anything after poking around the PC settings...and, yes, I have the proper screen resolutions and refresh rates selected in those two PC settings that call for these.

However, when the game starts, it does fill out the entire screen. Looks gorgeous! And the one nice thing about this sim vs. the more graphically-intensive FB+AEP+PF is that I'm able to crank up all of my settings for MAXIMUM eye candy! That includes AA @ 8x and AF @ 16x!!!


Dumbo
pilot

Intel Core i7-6700 processor 3.4 Ghz
Asus Strix GeForce GTX960 4GB graphics card
Kingston 240GB SSD hard drive
Gigabyte Z170X GAMING 3 mobo
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Windows 10 Premium 64 OEI
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#481035 - 05/14/05 09:23 AM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Bader Offline
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Yes, we seem to be at the point where a high end PC like this can run BoB at maximum settings perfectly, but with newer sims you cannot.
There will be some high end options in WoV (intense ground detailing, for example) that just cannot run on maximum screen settings today. But think three years from now..

Such is the balance between PC hardware and software..


"Ah yes, Michael (Parkinson)," Bader replied, "But these Fockers were Messerschmitts..."

BDG BoB Developers Group: Eleven! years of passion for historical recreation of the Battle of Britain.
#481036 - 05/16/05 04:53 AM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  

**DONOTDELETE**
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In answer to what it will have over BoB, I'm personally hoping that it will have everything that BoB doesn't have!
I.E. a decent flight model and an immersive campaign for starters. BoB is so bad that even the original Rowan BoB that was on the Amiga years ago was a better piece of software.
About the only two decent things in BoB are the Merlin engine sound on the fly-by view and the stick your head out of the cockpit feature. Everything else about BoB makes you wonder if any of the developers had even flown an aeroplane of any kind, let alone a Spitfire or bf109! So anything will be an improvement.
Yes IL-2 is a sim without a soul, but it does at least have a decent flight model which approaches the feel of flying a real aircraft. A pity that the guns are underpowered in it of course, but that seems to be true of a lot of combat simulations. (The old, two rifle-calibre rounds go through some non-critical part of your airframe and you're thrown into a screaming death dive, whereas you can hammer away at a target from ten yards and it takes nearly all your ammo to down one plane). I've actually resorted to deliberately chewing an enemy aircraft's rudder off with my prop on a number of occasions in IL-2 because this is so bad. Nine times out of ten you can get away with it! At least a decent flight model lets you do that.
Back to BoB - If the Spitfire had really flown as badly as it's depicted in BoB, we in the UK would all be speaking German these days. It wallows around the sky like a worn out Cessna 152. And how many times have you seen a 109 suddenly recover from a stall during a turning fight only to accelerate away from you like an F15, and lose about ten feet of height in the process? And all in the thin air of 20,000-plus feet with nothing on the clock but the maker's name.
Anyway, here's hoping that the developers have actually bothered to take a ride in a WW2 era prop plane to see what they really handle like and then actually bothered to read a few autobiographies written by pilots that were actually there (on both sides) instead of going for the usual 'Tally-ho chaps' cliches and thinking it passes for authenticity.

#481037 - 05/16/05 10:17 AM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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Osram Offline
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Virago wrote:
Quote:

Everything else about BoB makes you wonder if any of the developers had even flown an aeroplane of any kind, let alone a Spitfire or bf109!
BoB got good grades from a current Spitfire pilot, who BTW was neither paid nor even involved in it's development, so he was certainly not biased.

If you say the Spitfire is a dog and the 109 an über plane, I wonder how some of our experienced pilots can be very succesful in the Spitfire versus the 109.

I can think of only one explanaition for your experiences: You are one of those guys that hits a big bug with the joystick input. We have never found out when or why it happens, but for two people with the same joystick, it can happen that one can fly nicely and for the other it is completely porked. We were not able to find the bug in the input functions, since none of the developers got it. It seems to be a fairly binary you have it/you don't have it effect where fairly few people suffer from it, but suffer bad admittedly. Looking at the code, the joystick code was indeed one of the worst parts if not the worst part of BoB and so we have rewritten it from scratch for BoB 2. We have sent a test version to a guy that has the issue (BTW, a taildragger pilot) and he says it has been fixed.

BTW, if you have BoB still installed it is quite easy to test: Use the take off quickshot and turn off wind / gusts. Obviously, if you let go of the sticks, the surfaces should remain stationary. If you get the bug and look at the external model, you will see the surfaces "jerk around".

#481038 - 05/16/05 01:42 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  
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...So Virago,
I've read and re-read your post and all I can see is a lot of fustration over two of the finest prop sims currently on the market.
You bag the immersion, FM and Spit in BoB and repeat with IL2-FB.
Enlighten me, what are you trying to say...?
Statements like yours will get a raised eyebrow to say the least.

The BoB campaign is what makes the Sim so unique, alot of people here will no doubt agree.
The FM's are well tuned against each other, any aircraft will 'wallow' with no energy.

also, you will still be speaking English, thanks to the 'Few' and Royal Navy.

..And no I've never flown a Spit 1a
but I can dream and fly BoB \:D


Heia Safari
#481039 - 05/16/05 02:04 PM Re: What will "Wings of Victory" have...  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Osram, thanks for your suggestion. Wanting nothing more than to have a decent BoB sim, I tried it, hoping it might be the case, but sadly, it isn't.
Incidentally my stick is a Saitek Cyborg Force 3D, but I have used other sitcks on the sim too. Nevertheless, the Cyborg stick was the one I tried it with today and it remained rock solid, with no aileron twitch.
Perhaps I wasn't totally clear on one point I was trying to make in my previous post however. I was not intending to suggest that the bf109 was an 'uber plane' as you put it, merely that the A.I. in BoB makes it so as it does with the Spit if you fly as an axis pilot. When you fly it in the sim, it's fraught with the same issues as those which affect the Spit. Granted, the bf109 was a handful by all accounts, but not so much as BoB makes it I suspect.
With regard to my ability to judge the flight model, in addition to being a qualified aerobatics pilot, I have flown a Spitfire too (sadly not a 109 grrr). Admittedly only once, and it wasn't a Mark 1 or 2, plus of course it was a two post-war conversion, but still, I have flown one. By the way, it was a brilliant experience!
To be a little less general in my criticism of the flight model in BoB, I find that aircraft appear underpowered (the option to add a power boost in the sim practically amounts to admitting this), it's also far too twitchy, particulary at low speeds - where the real Spitfire has quite limited aileron authority - and I can only assume it was worse with fabric-covered ailerons which were the standard fitting in 1940. The elevator controls do not seem to respond that much differently throughout the flight regime either, which also allows one to depart from controlled flight with excessive alpha way to early and indeed too easily in some situations.
As if all this were not enough, the famous negative G carburettor float problem with early Merlins is ridiculously over-egged in BoB, with the merest suggestion of pushing forwards on the stick producing the effect. A 1000hp-plus engine at full throttle does not splutter to a complete halt if the fuel flow is cut off for a microsecond! If it did, I can assure you that I would not be alive now and in a position to be typing this. I could go on, but you get the general idea.
You can test some of these issues for yourself quite easily if you remain unconvinced: try putting on full rudder deflection at speeds above 220 mph. The huge amounts of yaw which this induces should put the aircraft into a flick roll owing to the lift disparity of the two wings, but it doesn't in BoB. In fact it hardly produces any roll whatsoever, just a ponderous swinging from side to side when the controls are re-centralised. Fluid dynamics and Newton's laws of motion seem to have been overlooked here a little.
Now quite apart from the obvious dangers of overstressing the airframe doing that at higher speeds, which would of course seriously overstress the tail unit too - notably a weak point on the Spit, it would certainly produce roll, actually I know for a fact it does, having tried it.
The pilot's notes for the Spitfire do actually prohibit flicks, but of course despite the dangers, they would certainly be something to try if a bf109 was crawling all over your ass!
Similary, try coming in for a classic Spit style landing and see how much aileron authority you have at 87 mph as you cross the peri track. Even someone who has never flown any type of aircraft will know that something is wrong there, a basic understanding of physics will tell them that.
One of my friends many years ago was an R.A.F. Spitfire pilot - eventually rising to the rank of Wing Commander. He did fly the mark 2 and a lot of other marks too, plus the Meteor and a lot of other cool stuff. And in amongst me plying him for information on what it was like to fly a Spitfire in combat all the time, he said something which always sticks in my mind: 'It was a joy to fly, smooth yet responsive, I couldn't believe they were actually paying me to fly one'
Does that sound like the flight model in BoB? Not to me it doesn't!
Please don't misunderstand me, I am aware that lots of people have spent time attempting to sort out the problems in BoB, many for no reward at all other than the satisfaction of trying to improve things, and it's certainly not my intention to denegrate their efforts. Speaking as someone who has also created add-ons and missions for many sims over the years, I know the time and effort they have put in. Nevertheless, even if you disagree with my assessment of the flight model in BoB, which you are of course completely entitled to do, the fact remains that BoB is a flawed product with a very lacklustre mission structure and no campaign immersion - something of a criminal ommission in a program with BATTLE in it's title. So it's my hope that developers of Wing of Victory - or any other sim for ythat matter - will take to heart the comments of not just me, when it's pointed out that this is so.
A cursory galnce at a combat report by any type of pilot who flew in the Battle of Britain (either axis or allied) will also point up huge failings of BoB in the tactical dispositions of aircraft too. Where are the stepped up formations of Luftwaffe fighters for example? The slashing attacks out of the sun from superior height? The bf109s bunting into a dive to evade allied fighters? The climbing turns of the Spits to avoid the bf109s? The fighting area attacks? The defensive circles of the bf110s? The list goes on and on.
Whizz-bang graphics seem to be a lot of the driving force of sims of late (of course flight sims have always been a genre which pushed the processor power envelope), and while I do of course like flash graphics, since I have a state of the art computer, they should not be at the expense of what is euphemistically called 'gameplay', or attempts at accuracy for that matter.
Those of us who have been using flight sims for years must surely be aware that many sim titles in the past were far superior to today's average effort in terms of immersion and inventiveness. Does anyone remember playing 'Knights of the Sky' for example? or Lucasart's Battle of Britain? If you do, you'll no doubt be fondly recalling the level of immersion that they offered, and despite the limitations of graphics and processing power, how much better they were to play.
I just hope that's what we have in store from future sims.

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