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#46504 - 06/04/06 07:27 PM loft bombing vs dive toss  
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Blue Four Offline
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Are there two names for the same maneuver or are they two different maneuvers? Or is dive toss the name of the mode in Falcon 4.0 for loft bombing?

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#46505 - 06/05/06 02:13 AM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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No, they are not the same.

In a dive toss delivery, the bomb is usually released when the flight path of the aircraft is still below the horizon. The aircraft is pulling up, but not yet in an actual climb. The bomb trajectory usually remains below the horizon.

Loft bombing is quite different. When lofting a bomb, the aircraft is in a pull up at a planned g or is in an established climb angle. The bomb trajectory is upwards, away from the horizon...sometimes as much as 45 degrees or so.

Dive Toss is a name for a specific type of weapons release system, while loft bombing is a generic name for a type of weapons release.

#46506 - 06/07/06 08:50 PM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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The book SIERRA HOTEL explains in its chapter 7, pages 63 to 67, details about of Dive Toss techniques for the F-4 Phantom and the developing of the newer Loft Bombing. Very interesting reading.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931839042/sr=8-1/qid=1149713339/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5065566-0074308?%5Fencoding=UTF8

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#46507 - 06/08/06 04:07 PM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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The ultimate loft bombing was the over-the-shoulder toss. You would come in very low at warp 9. Go slightly past the target, pull up into a 4 g pull into a loop. somewhere near the vertical or slightly past it you would release the weapon. You would continue over the top to 60 degrees nose down, roll over, and go back down on the deck, going out the same way you came in(hoping to fool the AAA shooters). I don't know if it was ever employed, but all attack pilots in the 70's practiced it. It was to be used for tactical nuke delivery.
Supposedly it would give the aircrew somewhat of a surviveability factor for the blast.

#46508 - 06/08/06 06:20 PM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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Early on Dive Toss deliveries in an F-4 depended on sometimes-screwy onboard systems (INS in particular could be wildly inaccurate). Some jets were better than others.

I'm one of those who didn't want to "Get Serious About Dive Toss" at the time (except in individual aircraft where it was known to be good; ...and I believe this was well after that "Get Serious..." weapons school article first came out... what was the date on that again?)

A preferred nuke delivery method, not a "Loft" strictly speaking, was a LADD (Low Angle Drogue Delivery): At the planned pullup point go to a set climb angle, 45 degrees for example. While the system didn't demand perfect parameters to drop the bomb with reasonable accuracy (for a nuke), consistent parameters did get the most out of the system.

The idea of the nuke LADD delivery was to allow for a low altitude ingress, where necessary to avoid threats, and then give the bomb, floating down on its parachute, enough fall time before detonation so that you could get separation from the target area. (That was the theory anyway.)

Papa_K

#46509 - 06/09/06 01:41 AM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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Alright, you made me go and pull out an old F-4 manual...

WRCS = "Weapons Release Computer Set"

From: TAC/PACAF/USAFEM 3-3, Vol VII, Mission Employment Tactics, Fighter Fundamentals, F-4.
This one's dated in 1988. Quoted below:
______________________________________

b. WRCS DIVE TOSS:

(1) The dive toss mode of delivery uses the aircraft sensors and WRCS to automatically develop a bomb release solution on a dive bomb pass. The system will compensate for small errors in airspeed, dive angle, and when used with a drift stabilized sight, most of the crosswind effect during a dive bombing delivery. It is not magic and cannot compensate for gross errors in delivery parameters, and thus you must carefully plan and execute a dive toss delivery to enhance your scores. In combat, this will definitely increase your chances of destroying the target.

(2) The dive toss delivery begins as a pilot is rolling out on final and places his pipper just short of the target. In dive toss, the pipper is slaved to the radar boreline (35 mils) and thus the pass is much like a strafe pass with regards to pipper handling. The WSO then locks the radar onto the ground return, and when the pilot pickles with his sight stabilized on the target, the WRCS integrates radar slant range information with VVI and GS from the INS to compute a weapons release solution. The pilot begins a 3- to 4-G pull while flying his projected ground track through the target. When the WRCS computer determines the release parameters are correct for a direct hit, it commands a release of the weapon.

(3) System Operation:

(a) The dive toss system is a versatile delivery mode. Its only preplanned parameter is the drag coefficient which is unique for each weapon and release slant range and can be found in the Dash 34-1-2. For multiple weapons release on the same pass, you would need to calculate and input a release advance. The system is accurate for dive angles from 10 to 60 degrees, out to a slant range of 25,000 feet, and up to a release altitude of 18,000 feet. These are the extremes, and actual system accuracy varies for each F-4 model; you should check your Dash 34 for the "heart of the envelope" for your model. The system is combat tested and can reduce delivery inaccuracies under conditions of changing dive angles and airspeed, and thus the crew is not tied to a preplanned set of delivery parameters to ensure a hit on the target.

(b) The dive toss system requires four essential aircraft systems. You must have an operable gunsight to track the target. The radar must operate in the air-to-ground mode and provide either a drift stabilized return or, for the E model, work in the boresight mode. This will supply the slant range to the WRCS. The INS must be functioning with reasonable accuracy with respect to ground speed and VVI information, so the WRCS will have accurate data to compute the release solution. Finally, the WRCS id dependent upon other systems t work out the release problem and send out the release signal.

(c) The only operator inputs required by the WRCS are the drag coefficient and the release advance, if required. Utilizing the drag coefficient as a reference number to specify a certain set of conditions to the ballistic computer, the ballistics computer in the WRCS will compute a release solution compensating for unknown winds, the biggest single accuracy degrader.

(d) The radar provides accurate slant range to the target at the instant of pickle for use in the WRCS ballistics computer. The system is normally used in the full system lock-on mode much like as in boresight air-to-air operations. Actually, the radar is operated in the air-to-ground mode and 5 or 10 mile (F-4D) range. The radar is now drift stabilized (unless drift-out in the F-4E) and boresighted on the 35 mils depression position. The center of the radar beam is at the center of the drift stabilized or caged pipper on the optical sight. When the pipper is placed near the target, the WSO should lock on the ground return in the radar by selecting full action on the hand control. Prior to lock-on, the scope should be tuned to the optimum ground return. This is the gain setting just prior to return breakup on the scope. For a 30-degree dive, the return is usually about 1/2 mile in length. The WSO should go to 1/2 action, position the acquisition symbols around the ground return 1/2 the distance from the bottom of the return for 30 degrees or greater dive angle and go full action. For shallow dive angles, positioning (the acquisition symbols) about 1/3 distance from the bottom of the return would be optimum. At full action, the system should lockup, seeking the optimum portion of the return due to automatic gain control (AGC). Excess time seeking the very best portion to lock-on may be wasted and could better be utilized looking for threats.

(e) The system may be utilized even though the radar will not lock-on as long as the radar ranging is accurate. This is the manual track mode. In this case, the WSO should go 1/2 action and bracket the target with the acquisition symbols and accurately position the range strobe as discussed above. The system will not lock-on, and thus the slant range will come directly from the range strobe position that is maintained by the WSO. The WSO must continue to track the return until he hears the steady tone indicating that the pilot has pickled. Due to the graze angle of the radar beam, system accuracy will degrade as dive angle decreases, and the rules-of-thumb given above for range strobe positioning are critical.

(f) With a full lock-on, an ASE circle will appear on the radar scopes, skin track light will illuminate on the F-4E radar, or the angle lock light on the APQ-109 (F-4D) will come on if selected, and the sight analog bar will appear indicating the slant range. Obviously, if you are manually tracking, none of these will be present. If the sight is flashing, or these lights are not illuminated, or the analog bar is jittering, or the target is jumping around the scope, the full system lock-up is not working. For the F-4E, the aircraft attitude is not as important at lock-up. However, for the F-4D, you should wait until within 20 degrees of wings-level flight to lockup. For both, a smooth constant roll-out rate will ensure the lock will hold.

(g) The pilot must use the sight to position the radar beam both before lock-on and at pickle. The technique is much like a strafe pass. Before lock-on, he should put the sight within about 12 mils of the target to ensure that the pipper will track to the target with minimum pilot inputs. Prior to pickle, he should steadily track the target for 1 to 2 seconds to ensure a smooth range rate to the radar. He should continue to track momentarily after pickle and then start a smooth pull, ensuring that the flight path will carry through the target in wings-level flight. The sight is in a drift stabilized mode if A/G is utilized on the sight selector knob. In this case, the pipper is drift stabilized to compensate for crosswind. The sight will move about much like in the A/A mode, and similar sight handling techniques are required. If this mode is inoperative or not desired, the sight may be used in the CAGED position. In this case, the pilot must manually offset for the crosswind factor. Either the full foot/knot distance may be estimated on the ground, or you can use a 2 mils/knot offset in the pipper.

(h) The INS is critical to accurate dive toss. The INS will provide the ballistics computer with ground speed and VVI information which will be constantly be updated by the computer to provide a release solution. This ground speed input will compensate for unknown head or tail winds in the WRCS's release computation. You must carefully check the INS both before takeoff and while airborne to ensure that the INS is functioning accurately, as it is usual the main source of erroneous date input to the ballistics computer.

(i) The computer was designed to provide a release for a 4-G in 2 seconds pullout. Experience indicates that a lesser G pullout will enhance accuracy. Pulling 2 Gs to decrease dive angle about 10 degrees and then holding the lesser angle until bomb release is optimum. This is known as the dive-glide maneuver. At pickle, a continuous tone is generated in your headset until release. At release, the tone will cease and the pull-up light will come on in the front cockpit indicating a release.

(j) The actual delivery computation is in the ballistic computer. Simply stated, at pickle the computer gets an instantaneous readout of slant range to the target. Working with this one-time slant range and continuous ground speed and vertical velocity (VVI) from the INS, it computes a time to fly to the target across the ground for the particular constraints defined by the drag coefficient. (Simply: Distance to go/Ground speed of bomb = Time to go)
Simultaneously, it is computing the time of fall of the bomb based on the drag coefficient and VVI. (Simply: Altitude/VVI = Time of fall)
When the time to go equals the time of fall, a release signal is generated, and the bomb comes off. If multiple weapons release is desired, the release signal will be generated when the release advance time before single weapon release is seen by the computer.

(k) The F-4D/E Dive Toss operating limitations are:
1. Slant Range - 2,500 to 25,000 feet
2. Dive Angle - approximately 10 degrees (15 degrees in F-4D) to 60 degrees
3. Velocity - 300 to 650 KTAS
4. Altitude - 18,000 feet maximum
5. Climb angle at release - 10 degrees. (Release signals will be generated at climb angles in excess of 10 degrees, however, computer accuracy may be degraded at these climb angles.)

//..jumping ahead...//

(7) Considerations:

(a) The dive toss delivery is not the same as a manual release and requires some different techniques. First, because the target is the aim-off point, the base leg needs to be further away from the target. Also, you may want to back-up and go higher on base if your crew coordination time is more than for a manual delivery.

(b) Because of bomb trail, in a crosswind, you must aim 2 to 3 feet into the wind for each 10 knots of crosswind. This is because the weapons will not actually fall on the ground track of the aircraft. This upwind aiming point is a good rule of thumb for low drag weapons. For high drag weapons, it is more and should be extracted from the Dash 34.
______________________________________
end quote

The above info was for F-4's before the Digital Modular Avionics System (DMAS) - ARN-101 (in later F-4E's and G's.) Take what was stated above and enhance it with an accurate INS and a more advanced, and digital, release computer – a lot more accurate in all delivery modes (except manual, which became a lost art pretty quickly in F-4's and in other later aircraft. Manual deliveries stayed useful as backups, if for nothing else, and for winning quarters on the range).


Papa_K

(Didn't mean to put too much boring info... believe it or not, I did cut out a lot... maybe somebody will get something out of this...)

#46510 - 06/09/06 04:09 AM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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Since the original poster was talking about Falcon 4, there are dive toss and loft procedures in an F-16 manual (MCM 11-F16, Vol 5) available at the Global Security website: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-16-ref.htm

______________________________

A quick way to look at the difference between Dive Toss and Loft:

Dive Toss is a Visual Delivery. You point yourself at the target and designate by hitting the pickle button, and the system determines release.

Loft relies on target coordinates, or an offset from a radar ground return with known coordinates, etc., but it's not a visual delivery. You're following system steering and have a system-determined release. You can lob a (low drag) bomb in from what can be a good distance away - you don't have to visually acquire the target first.


Papa_K

#46511 - 06/09/06 04:24 PM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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Thank you very much for such a detailed info.

Now your question:

Article: Let's Get Serious About Dive Toss
by Capt. Bob Baxter
year 1970 ("Fighter Weapons Review" magazine????)

At least according to the info available here, a foreign country and me being a simple airline (non military) pilot and aficionado.

#46512 - 06/10/06 05:17 PM Re: loft bombing vs dive toss  
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That's the one... 1970...

That same article was still around, and referenced, in the early '80's in the vanilla F-4E squadrons.

Maybe when the systems and those specific aircraft were new, the INS and Dive Toss were a little more accurate/consistent.

Papa_K


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