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#4478403 - 06/16/19 07:14 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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Originally Posted by HarryH
I'm down to one stutter every 25 minutes or so, regardless of the action level.


HH, I am glad you have things set to where you're willing to live with it. That said, and with all due respect: This makes it sound as if the 25-minute figure is some sort of 'average time between stutters' or something like that. In reality - if I may - what it means is more like:

"I can fly 25 minutes in some cases, apparently without encountering the conditions that will cause significant stutters. If, during any flight, I encounter the specific conditions that cause the stutters, it is possible that I would experience significant stutters, and possibly in fairly rapid succession.

It is necessary to distinguish because, in fact, no one knows or understands the exact cause of these stutters, cannot control the occurrence, and thus cannot say with certainty they can be predictably avoided for any particular duration or interval of time.

Quite simply put, it depends entirely on the circumstances within the sim, rather than any settings, machine capability, or configuration."


Isn't this more accurate by far?

The thing is, what you seem to be enjoying now is the same type of experience which, for years, has caused some to insist they have no stutters. At the same time, however - and for the same number of years - several have continued to notice stutters, as has been brought up and discussed off and on throughout all that time. No one's cured it; in fact, it seems most likely that nothing's changed concerning the stutters - other than people either encountering the condition(s) - or not - that actually cause the stutter. My point is that anyone - regardless of settings, machine, TrackIR, etc. - can and will experience stutters, and as much/often/bad as ever, because at the end of the day, while some improvements in 'smoothness' may have been obtained by various methods, the stutter issue itself is unchanged.

Where you can run a scenario in which there might not be a stutter for 25 minutes, I can demonstrate a scenario where stutters occur every 25 seconds. Notably, I'm sure there are people who will say they can run indefinitely without stutter - to which I say, simply make a recording of a scenario actually proven to reproduce stutter that doesn't show any, then we can talk about what's different on your machine. So far, no one's done that.

You understand, I'm sure, why it's best to be clear.


No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4478405 - 06/16/19 08:29 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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I know you're hung up on this issue KKS and I know you think your test is valid. I don't think it is and I've respectfully explained why. I can't even get the AI to do what you say they need to do to carry out the test. Similarly, people couldn't get MY stutter test to behave the same as it does for me either, so neither of our tests are valid. I really don't mind if you want to keep agonizing over this, that's entirely up to you, but I'm moving on. I'm enjoying the game, warts and all, and that's all I was saying above. All that said, have you looked at your TrackIR settings to see if there's a roll curve plotted? If, not then you might want to give it a try. Or not. Up to you.

Cheers


..."I took the Stutter Challenge....AND WON!!!"

...”My PC’s been banned... for taking PEDs!!!”

...”The stutters only happen on Wednesdays when it’s cloudy. The rest of the time we’ll be just fine!!!”
#4478407 - 06/16/19 08:49 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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I don't know why your machine doesn't show the same behavior in the test, but mine does it every time without fail, and of the others who ran it, no one had the issue you do. Maybe something's wrong at your end, I don't know.

What I do know is you can't say you don't have stutter as long as the scenario you run doesn't include the very part(s) that are there to demonstrate the stutter. It's unfortunate that your setup won't run the test within the parameters necessary - for whatever reason - but that's not a problem with the test.

That's like having a car with a poorly running engine and saying 'It runs fine as long as I don't go up any hills, pass anyone, or run the air conditioner." Maybe that constitutes acceptable behavior in a car for some, but only if they're willing to put up with a sub-standard level of performance.


Last edited by kksnowbear; 06/16/19 08:49 PM.

No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4478422 - 06/16/19 10:51 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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Hey, I completely respect your knowledge of PCs, but IMO your test only reliably demonstrates that there's an initial impact on game performance whenever starting a scenario, QC or mission, as the engine fills the system and graphics memory pipelines. Which is why many people spin the view a few times before starting, to pre-cache as much scenery as their system and the game will allow. My attempt at a repeatable test factored this in b allowing people to head spin before starting, and even with that, it successfully demonstrated an incidence of a stutter.... but that stutter happened at different times for people, which suggests to me at least, that stutters are likely somewhat machine-related, although not necessarily curable.

So, I'm not arguing with you, but I am saying it's possible to make this game run really well, albeit with occasional stutters. You are also right that stutters don't just occur every 25 minutes. They are certainly more likely to happen more frequently during intense action. Sorry if my comment was misleading in that respect.

All that aside, you didn't comment on my suggestion to check your roll settings? Here's a video that uses your test scenario (sorry, I broke the rules and did the head spin thing, but this is more to show you the improvements that are possible rather than trying to prove I've cured the stutters!). Indeed, there a stutter near the beginning and two near the end, but nothing that would kill me. And I'm not trying to compete with you or show off, although I do think this is pretty impressive and I am unashamedly happy with my tweaks to date smile. I am actually trying to help you and others to get better results, stutters notwithstanding. It's entirely up to you if nothing short of fixing stutters is worth your effort. Anyhow, apologies for my poor mastery of the Dr1. Hope you enjoy the video regardless smile




..."I took the Stutter Challenge....AND WON!!!"

...”My PC’s been banned... for taking PEDs!!!”

...”The stutters only happen on Wednesdays when it’s cloudy. The rest of the time we’ll be just fine!!!”
#4478440 - 06/17/19 02:18 AM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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HH

I'm afraid you're overlooking a few key points (as I reported to you in our private conversations):

- I did perform my test scenario with the "view pan" method, for several rounds at both low, mid, and high level views with the sim paused immediately at start, before continuing. This made no difference in the stutters.

- Further to the above, I also noted there are stutters that continue throughout the scenario, so they are not explained (nor likely to be changed) by the 'view pan' method. The stutter is absolutely not limited to the beginning of the scenario. It is well known that, as new objects are encountered, the stutters occur throughout the mission/flight. Thus, even if pausing and panning were to get rid of stutters initially, your suggestion seems to imply that one would need to stop periodically and pan view around, while moving in the sim, so that newly-encountered scenery could be loaded into the 'system and memory pipelines' (as you put it). This is impractical, a complete immersion killer, and shouldn't be necessary. And, as I mentioned, you'd have no way of knowing - save maybe just using time as a guide - when to stop and pan. Since you're always moving, you're always loading new objects, and that can cause stutter at any time. Finally, I mentioned that the stutter itself provides unrealistic advantage to the player, simply because you can often associate the stutter of new objects loading with the appearance of new aircraft. This is certainly not realistic.

- You will recall that I told you I had also run my test without even using TrackIR...from a clean boot, not even starting TrackIR, and using the hat switch. Although it took some getting used to, it didn't take long to realize that not using TrackIR made no difference in the observable stutters in my test. It seems logical that TrackIR has no bearing on the actual stutter issue, even if fiddling with it has allowed you more enjoyment.

To be clear: I'm not saying, nor have I ever, that there aren't things one can do that will improve the inherent issues with graphics performance the sim has. And, I think it's also true to say that not doing any of those things (or setting them wrong) will definitely make stuttering worse. What I'm saying, though, is none of those things resolve the stuttering. No TrackIR tweaks, no Nvidia Inspector settings, no workshop settings or air activity limiting (my test has one other plane...). Some of these settings, per Nvidia and other sources, were intended for much older GPUs and have no effect on performance these days. Often, you see here in the forum where one guy claims he fixed the stutters by turning off setting X, only to be directly contradicted by another guy saying setting X must be on (or even better, that setting X doesn't even apply to this sim...)

Originally Posted by HarryH
Indeed, there a stutter near the beginning and two near the end, but nothing that would kill me.


Right - but, again, this isn't about whether anyone is/is not willing to live with the stutters.


Last edited by kksnowbear; 06/17/19 02:26 AM.

No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4478443 - 06/17/19 03:02 AM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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.... yup, I don't have an issue with anything you say here, except to say I don't believe I'm overlooking anything. Your test is flawed, and so is mine. I now realize that, no matter what conditions you set up, be them QC or scenario, the AI will randomly change things, so even if you engage autopilot the test will not be repeatable.

I am working on a new test that I hope will eliminate the in-built AI issues. Stay tuned. Meantime, I can't help but notice that you haven't commented on my video... ?

Cheers KKS.


..."I took the Stutter Challenge....AND WON!!!"

...”My PC’s been banned... for taking PEDs!!!”

...”The stutters only happen on Wednesdays when it’s cloudy. The rest of the time we’ll be just fine!!!”
#4478475 - 06/17/19 11:43 AM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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So I went to buy a car once, and when I drove it, there was a definite noise coming from the engine. It sounded to me like a grinding, but whatever it was, it wasn't normal.

I told the guy who was selling the car about the noise, and I left. A few days go by, the guy contacts me to tell me I should come drive the car again. So I went over. He had painted the car a flashy color, polished the wheels and detailed the interior. But when I drove it, same engine noise. I politely explained that, while all the improvements he made were nice, the car still had a basic problem he wasn't addressing.

Another couple days later, he has me come over again. New tires, new radio, new wiper blades...same noise. Now he says "It's probably the way you're driving the car."

The problem is the engine noise. It has been, and it will continue to be. All that other stuff is nice, but it isn't what's at issue. I'm not buying a car that demonstrates an engine problem just because someone can improve everything else about the car. Statements like "It's entirely up to you if nothing short of fixing stutters is worth your effort." seem to say that I'm being unreasonable or that somehow, I'm the problem here. As I said, I'm glad you're happy with what you're getting, but you can't expect anyone else to accept an obvious, demonstrable problem.

There's nothing flawed about my test. It duplicates the exact issue, 100% of the time. Even in (at least) two others' tests. Your runs, even with the enemy turning the wrong way, still show the stutter. (It's only a problem if you deviate from the test and try to claim the stutters were fixed...which I don't think you have.)

Moreover, I am absolutely certain that, if the stutters were actually fixed, then these stutters would not be observable in my test. So, the test allows me to reliably see the stutters, and I'm sure it would reliably show if they weren't there as well. And the only way anyone's ever going to run this test without showing stutters is if they are actually no longer occurring in the sim. That's a plenty reliable test to me.

The way the enemy AC turns has never been a problem until you ran the test (and let me point out that, unlike your test, I'm not providing a QC, it's being set up by the individual...so maybe that's why it doesn't run the same at your end). Like I said, I don't know, but it doesn't matter. I don't think it's really prudent to spend a bunch of time trying to figure that part out, when the focus is on the stutters (or should be). There are plenty of other tests, videos, etc that show the stutter. You just can't judge based on any single video that doesn't show stutters. You have to have a test that shows the stutters to being with, then shows the stutters eliminated by applying whatever fix, (and ideally then shows the stutters return when the fix is removed)...else it's not a valid test.

I have watched your video. I saw fairly significant stutters at roughly 0:33 and 0:37, even with all the view panning. Another out around 0:57. These are essentially the same stutters I see in my test, so irrespective of everything else, it looks like you have now duplicated stutters running my test.

As I described above, the car's engine noise is (still) the problem.

Nice wheels, though wink


No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4478483 - 06/17/19 12:17 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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^^ God almighty here we go again^^

How does this thread go off topic and go to the "stuttering" issue again? Haven't we already got a thread started recently regarding this issue? I purposely stayed away from that one because as soon has I saw it I just knew KKS would be along with his paragraphs of "wisdom"

@HH thanks for your trackir settings and advice much appreciated and definitely for me improves my personal experience of both OBD,S sims. Take it from experience pal..you won't win with KKS,he,ll bang on and on and on.

@KKS yet again your like a dog with a bone,again you sold WOFF way back didn't you? Have you repurchased or did you keep a back up zip and sell your account/order number?(Which I believe remains the property of OBD). Do you fly WOFF and enjoy or do you just test it for "stutters" if it's the latter then I have no words,if your not enjoying it because the stutters bug you(they must because you bang on about them constantly) then why not go play something else?. Something you might enjoy? You mentioned on another thread that these issues occur in WOTR because...you've seen videos of it?? Again I fly WOTR I'm assuming you don't . I have a FPS drop at engine startup but once I'm up everything's fine again I notice NO STUTTERS.

Fwiw il say again what I've said in the past..I Personnally don't notice any "stutters" in any of the sims,I'm not saying for one minute that they arnt there,and I certainly arnt calling any of you liars..some of you guys see them some (me included) don't. I purchase sims/games for enjoyment that's the point isn't it? Enjoy WOFF for what it is..an incredible,immersive WW1 sim..probably never to be bettered. If I don't enjoy something I uninstall and fly/play something else.

Sorry HH I've done what I mentioned in my first sentence and gone OT myself,I apoligise its your thread and if you think I've gone too far il delete my post mate. I just get a bit pissed when I stay away from the subject on one thread for it to be bought up and continued on your Trackir thread pal..
Again cheers for the trackir settings they work like a charm.

Best regards Adger


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4478488 - 06/17/19 12:35 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: Adger]  
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Originally Posted by Adger


@HH thanks for your trackir settings and advice much appreciated and definitely for me improves my personal experience of both OBD,S sims.


+1
Working for me well aswell smile

#4478495 - 06/17/19 12:59 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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Got a brief flight in last night and tried your profile, Harry. First impressions are very good. Thanks!

#4478496 - 06/17/19 01:05 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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The issue of stutters was raised by HarryH, not me. I simply pointed out that I felt his mention of having one stutter every 25 minutes was misleading, and he agreed:

Originally Posted by HarryH
You are also right that stutters don't just occur every 25 minutes. They are certainly more likely to happen more frequently during intense action. Sorry if my comment was misleading in that respect.


No doubt his TrackIR settings may have improved the sim in general, but testing shows TrackIR has no impact on the stutters being discussed (proven by running tests that show stutter even when TrackIR isn't even being used)..

Simple as that.


No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4478500 - 06/17/19 01:25 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
The issue of stutters was raised by HarryH, not me. I simply pointed out that I felt his mention of having one stutter every 25 minutes was misleading, and he agreed:

You are also right that stutters don't just occur every 25 minutes. They are certainly more likely to happen more frequently during intense action. Sorry if my comment was misleading in that respect.


Yes and out of the entire post Harry made regarding his trackir findings,your 1st post on this trackir thread quoted only the stutter sentence. No thanks or positive comments regarding the thread subject..No you see the word stutter and your eyes light up.

And what the hell all your crap you spout about regarding cars in your posts has to do with WOFF il never know.

Like I mentioned on my last post you're like a dog with a bone..you see the word stutter and pounce on it,you know it I know it,you not going to answer my previous questions about owning/flying/enjoying WOFF then KKS?

Practically every thread you comment on ends up the same..your inability to listen to others..you don't talk to people you talk AT them,you won't accept others findings or experiences with OBD,S sims..yours are all that matters. Sorry again HH,I've fallen into his trap again I sincerely apoligise ..I'm out.


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4478505 - 06/17/19 01:55 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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Got a brief flight in last night and tried your profile, Harry. First impressions are very good. Thanks!

#4478507 - 06/17/19 02:26 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: Raine]  
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Excellent, I'm very glad that some of you are finding some benefit with this. I have refined the profile even more since my first post. I'll post an updated link here when I'm finally done, along with instructions on how to extend the backward view.

Pol, sorry again. Another thread that went a bit off topic. Please feel free to transfer it to the Technical section.


..."I took the Stutter Challenge....AND WON!!!"

...”My PC’s been banned... for taking PEDs!!!”

...”The stutters only happen on Wednesdays when it’s cloudy. The rest of the time we’ll be just fine!!!”
#4478512 - 06/17/19 02:47 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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Originally Posted by HarryH
Excellent, I'm very glad that some of you are finding some benefit with this. I have refined the profile even more since my first post. I'll post an updated link here when I'm finally done, along with instructions on how to extend the backward view.

Pol, sorry again. Another thread that went a bit off topic. Please feel free to transfer it to the Technical section.


Cheers Harry any tweaks that improve your profile is appreciated. Once again my apologies.


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4478518 - 06/17/19 03:17 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: Adger]  
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Originally Posted by Adger
Originally Posted by HarryH
Excellent, I'm very glad that some of you are finding some benefit with this. I have refined the profile even more since my first post. I'll post an updated link here when I'm finally done, along with instructions on how to extend the backward view.

Pol, sorry again. Another thread that went a bit off topic. Please feel free to transfer it to the Technical section.


Cheers Harry any tweaks that improve your profile is appreciated. Once again my apologies.


No apology needed smile


..."I took the Stutter Challenge....AND WON!!!"

...”My PC’s been banned... for taking PEDs!!!”

...”The stutters only happen on Wednesdays when it’s cloudy. The rest of the time we’ll be just fine!!!”
#4478533 - 06/17/19 05:07 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: Adger]  
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Originally Posted by Adger
Originally Posted by HarryH
Excellent, I'm very glad that some of you are finding some benefit with this. I have refined the profile even more since my first post. I'll post an updated link here when I'm finally done, along with instructions on how to extend the backward view.

Pol, sorry again. Another thread that went a bit off topic. Please feel free to transfer it to the Technical section.


Cheers Harry any tweaks that improve your profile is appreciated.

+1
Thx

#4478803 - 06/19/19 02:37 AM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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Here's a link to my final TrackIR profile, along with my WOFF detail settings and Nvidia Inspector profile for WOFF / WOTR.

Don't use the Inspector profie unless you have a G-Sync monitor!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E_AAnRjFN4DfOKM9CioShz4v2LlT2rIc

Last edited by HarryH; 06/19/19 02:38 AM.

..."I took the Stutter Challenge....AND WON!!!"

...”My PC’s been banned... for taking PEDs!!!”

...”The stutters only happen on Wednesdays when it’s cloudy. The rest of the time we’ll be just fine!!!”
#4479099 - 06/20/19 03:24 PM Re: TrackIR Users - Check This Out.... [Re: HarryH]  
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Here's a recent video recorded with the above profiles and settings. Try to view in HD. Recorded at 60FPS vs the game running at ~72 FPS so there's a little bit of math making things less smooth than it actually is, but still pretty sweet IMO. Best I've had WOFF running to date. 53 minute mission, no obvious stutters. Hate landing this thing smile




..."I took the Stutter Challenge....AND WON!!!"

...”My PC’s been banned... for taking PEDs!!!”

...”The stutters only happen on Wednesdays when it’s cloudy. The rest of the time we’ll be just fine!!!”
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