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#4472108 - 04/27/19 04:18 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Still running my HTPC on Windows 7, since they've dropped support for Windows Media Center in WIn10. Only browsing I do is NetFlix.

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#4472184 - 04/28/19 06:52 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Will they archive and make accessible all the old updates and security updates for folks who need to roll back or forward for whatever reason? Does it also mean Windows Security Essentials will cease to function? What happens to that program? I don't like being coerced to buy and move to a new OS. Windows 7 for me has been as good as Windows XP was and both are probably the longest used OSs that I've ever used. Is something like free AVG enough for protection when support drops?

#4472186 - 04/28/19 07:32 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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According to Microsoft's site (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4057281/windows-7-support-will-end-on-january-14-2020):

What happens if I continue to use Windows 7?

You can continue to use Windows 7, but after support has ended, your PC will become more vulnerable to security risks and viruses. Windows will continue to start and run, but you will no longer receive software updates, including security updates, from Microsoft.


Can Windows 7 still be activated after January 14, 2020?

Windows 7 can still be installed and activated after end of support; however, it will be more vulnerable to security risks and viruses due to the lack of security updates. After January 14, 2020, Microsoft strongly recommends that you use Windows 10 instead of Windows 7.


I can't say for certain, but it looks to me like all of the security updates made available until the end of support will still be available, based on the fact that you'll still be able to install and activate it.


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#4472189 - 04/28/19 08:18 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: Coot]  
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Originally Posted by Coot
Does it also mean Windows Security Essentials will cease to function? What happens to that program?

Since it has been replaced by Windows Defender/Windows Security Center, I presume that it will no longer receive signature updates. This will be the functional equivalent of it ceasing to function; you could still run it, but without updates it will very quickly become worse than obsolete (since it would not report attacks that it does't recognize, it would create a false sense of security).

There is no way around it: Just like WIndows XP has become technologically obsolete, Windows 7 is about to. The only safe way to keep it running is to disconnect it from the internet. I can empathize with your resentment about the end of Windows 7. Like pretty much everybody else I liked it better than anything that came after it. But like anyone who had to let go of Windows XP, you're facing the inevitable. Cybercriminals worldwide are just waiting for anyone who, for whatever reason, isn't prepared to abandon Windows 7.

You can switch to Linux.
You can pull the Ethernet cable/cut your WiFi.

Or you'll have to make the switch to Windows 10.

Chances are, the free upgrade still works. I haven't tested it, but a year ago that was still the case, almost two years past the date beyond which Microsoft guaranteed the free upgrade option. You may not like switching the operating system. But it's not Microsoft coercing you. It's the cyber threat environment. Microsoft has done the right thing to make security the focus of their product development. After BSD, Windows 10 it's probably the second most secure operating system there is. No other OS gets attacked more often, so it's better prepared to deal with this threat spectrum than all the other operating systems. Keeping an operating system up to date in this cyber threat environment costs money. By buying a license you purchase support only for a limited time, whether that's made public (like in MS's case) or not (most others), unless the development is subsidized by someone else (like Linux, by IBM and Google).
Microsoft has made questionable product policy decisions, like forcing itself to a bi-annual feature upgrade cycle (a policy that seems to change now, looks like they realized that it was a mistake). I also don't like the GUI changes based on the assumption that everybody uses a touchscreen now. I think that's monumentally stupid, and I hate the wasteful design that's resulting from it. But I have to acknowledge that Microsoft is trying to do the right thing for its operating system (within the constraints of commercial software development) - establishing it as a service rather than a product. The market is no longer growing at a pace that selling licenses can finance the product development. At the same time, security must become a prime consideration for any OS developer. Other than BSD, I simply see no other manufacturer with a similar degree of attention in this area. The rest derives protection from small market shares, or, in the case of Android, is highly vulnerable in its default configuration.

Windows 8 was horrible, 8.1 already addressed a number of particularly stupid points, Windows 10 is now a relatively decent product. At least the Professional version, when set to delay upgrades by half a year, and with O&O's "Shutup 10" to restore your privacy. Just be sure not to create a MS user account on Windows 10 installation (the simplest way is to cut the internet connection during the first phase of the installation, after the download has been completed and the first reboot is under way.


Yes, reinstalling an operating system is painful, but it's not like the writing hasn't been on the wall for years.

#4472196 - 04/28/19 10:07 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Would there be any security advantage to running a Win7 (or WinXP for that matter) PC behind a (Linux based perhaps) hardware firewall?


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4472203 - 04/28/19 11:52 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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A firewall would always help, but if you visit a site and it has malware designed to use known exploits that haven't been patched on Windows 7, the firewall won't prevent it from installing through the browser or plug-in. Firewalls will generally protect you from what used to be called worms, that seek out systems to infect, but they don't usually do much for malware from websites, as long as the ports that the website, and possible plug-ins, are using are not blocked by the firewall.

Most standard wireless routers will protect you from worms with about the same effectiveness as a Linux-based firewall.


Ken Cartwright

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#4472206 - 04/29/19 12:07 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I wouldn't rule it out, but at the end of the day if the Linux PC/hardware firewall isn't configured to perform deep packet inspection I don't see how it could stop attacks that target vulnerabilities of browsers or the Windows operating system if they are just being passed through. I mean, every router is such a "Linux PC" between your machine and the internet. Yes, you usually block a lot of trouble that way (like, by closing all ports that aren't explicitly required), but not all of it (like, attacks going though open ports that you just NEED for http connections, fetching email, streaming your Netflix, ...).
And of course - once that the router has been compromised all bets are off. Also, I'm not sure how a "hardware firewall" is supposed to evolve with the threat spectrum. A software firewall can be updated; you wouldn't want to buy a new hardware firewall with up-to-date virus signatures every six hours (even if it existed, which it doesn't). Finally, you can't fix stupid. If the user double-clicks that super-trustworthy email attachment from that Nigerian all-caps FRIEND IN NEED, that's the end of it, no matter how many precautions you took.


Frankly, with tools such as Classic Shell you can retain much of the Windows 7 GUI look & feel. Switching over to Windows 10 is the least onerous option available. Switching to Linux might gve you a good feeling to "show the man" but it's definitely more painful than migrating from Windows 7 to 10. Don't get me wrong, it's possible to have a good user experience with Linux. But don't tell me it's less of a pain than migrating from 7 to 10. Likewise, setting up that Linux based firewall PC is just going to invoke a different kind of pain since you'll then have to maintain two operating systems, with considerably less security as a result (so what's the point). No matter how I look at the situation, I simply can see no rational justification for the overwhelming majority of use cases to stick with Windows 7 - except for nostalgia, or other emotional ties.

#4472208 - 04/29/19 02:16 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Does Windows Defender support Windows 7 or is that a Windows 10 program? Regardless if its Microsoft or cybercriminals or both, its still forcing people's hand. Both parties have too much control. Stinks having a PC that's been pretty darn future proof for gaming needs only to have the OS become a significant issue. I've heard people talk about having gaming rigs that stay offline and they only use a secondary computer for online stuff including downloading files that they may need to install on the other machine. It'll take some retraining of thought but that sounds like the best immediate option for someone not able or willing to adopt a new OS right now.

#4472216 - 04/29/19 03:56 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Coot, as Ssnake said, no one is forcing you to give up Windows 7, it won't stop working, it just won't get security updates. Also as Ssnake said, it costs money to keep updating it - it's not like a wrench that is a simple mechanical device, people are trying to find ways to steal stuff from you when you use it, so you need to keep updating it.

You can't buy new movies on VHS anymore for similar reasons, that it costs money to produce them and it's just not worth it, even if people still have VHS VCRs at home and would like to use them. New products have been released and companies are putting their money into supporting those. Microsoft even offered the replacement for free - try getting that for a new media format. Should Microsoft support Windows 7 forever? Is there ever a time when they could let it go? I'd say getting updates for 10 years is not a bad deal from a one-time purchase of under $100 (assuming you bought Windows with the PC).

Fact is, you can still get updates for Windows 7 from Microsoft, you just have to pay for it. You'd have to go with Windows 7 Pro, and the costs will start at $50 for the first year before going up to $100 in year two and $200 during year three.


Ken Cartwright

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#4472219 - 04/29/19 05:02 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I still use my Win98 system with a WinXP emulator. The last computer I purchased is XP service pak2. Both computers do all I want or need from a computer. Honestly, I prefer DOS. Your fancy OS still talks to a CPU that only knows binary.

I chased the computer revolution from the late 80's through the 2000's. If I did not need the web for motorcycle repair parts, I would drop it. I have never owned a cell phone. I drive less then 2k miles per year.

When I create commerce, I go to the store. I do not need instant gratification, and the bonus is the clerk has a job.

I smoke and drink like a fiend in hopes I die. I can not stand the society that the internet has created.

smile wish you all good.


TPA who TWI
#4472220 - 04/29/19 05:38 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I understand that no one is technically forcing a Windows 7 user's hand but with the numerous warnings of almost assured security threats, for one to feel that their system and personal information and intellectual property is secure while connected online its a forceful compelling to indeed upgrade or figure something else out. I don't require a free update nor Microsoft to support something forever. I don't expect that nor would I. Unfortunately technology does not work that way often and some of that is by design unfortunately. I'm happy with my Windows 7 until one day in the future where I might get a new PC altogether. That is not my issue though which I think some are misunderstanding. I've been more than satisfied with Windows 7 and hopefully I will not need to change anytime soon. Technology however, is becoming way more expensive in ways that many don't realize I think. That's what I take umbrage with. There's a control and encroachment that comes along with it. We're approaching a time I believe where we are all going to have to make a serious decision whether to proceed or divorce ourselves from it as best we can. That's a different subject though. So don't mind me. I'm not irate just concerned and trying to be cautious about the bigger picture. Thanks to all for the links and information. This still is a great and helpful community.

#4472223 - 04/29/19 06:08 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: Coot]  
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Originally Posted by Coot
Does Windows Defender support Windows 7 or is that a Windows 10 program?

It's the Windows 10 successor to WIndows 7's Security Essentials, with more functionality.
Quote
Regardless if its Microsoft or cybercriminals or both, its still forcing people's hand. Both parties have too much control.

Not sure what to say. Maybe you're right but are you ready to disconnect your machine from the internet because of it?
Switch to Linux, and the cybercriminals will still attempt to attack you. Stick with Windows 7, and let your computer become the b!tch of the first botnet you run into. You'll have to pick among these three options. There are no alternatives. You can't change the cybercriminals, nor can you influence Microsoft's product policy. At this point your protestations are becoming a waste of effort. Inaction is the choice to surrender to the cybercriminals: Your computer, sooner rather than later, will become vulnerable to cyberattacks. If you don't pull the plug your machine will join Oleg's botnet, and be available for other cybercriminals that hire Oleg's botnet for their criminal activities.

Quote
Stinks having a PC that's been pretty darn future proof for gaming needs only to have the OS become a significant issue.

Seriously, that is like complaining that you have a "top notch car, only the brakes are deficient." It doesn't matter that there's no rust, that the engine is 75mpg and delivers 500hp, and that the custom paint job is the envy of the world. You need to look at the whole package, and that includes the operating system and the application software side of it. The idea that an operating system lasts forever was never true, and never will be in our lifetime.

Quote
I've heard people talk about having gaming rigs that stay offline and they only use a secondary computer for online stuff including downloading files that they may need to install on the other machine.

Whatever floats your boat. I don't think it's a practical solution, but it could be "a" solution.

#4472224 - 04/29/19 06:15 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: Coot]  
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Originally Posted by Coot
I don't require a free update nor Microsoft to support something forever. I don't expect that nor would I.

Be honest here. You also want to be connected to the internet, and be protected reasonably well against joining Oleg's bot army. And you want to play games. This unique combination is, at this point, the exclusive domain of Microsoft. OpenBSD is more secure, but you can't play games. You can play some games on Linux (or MacOS/OSX), but probably not the one that you want most, and your main protection, running a comparatively obscure operating system, will vanish faster than a thin layer of snow at the bottom of Death Valley as soon as Linux would gain a sufficiently large market share to attract the cybercriminals' attention.

#4472225 - 04/29/19 07:18 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Hey Ssnake, I have a say just as you do, however I don't think anything warrants such a response. I think my statements are being misunderstood and that's okay. My mind it somewhere totally different with regards to this subject matter and perhaps that's my fault for placing those thoughts here. Yes indeed, disconnecting from the internet is exactly what I am suggesting, contemplating and referring to. I'm even suggesting and contemplating for myself an even bigger action. My hope is that others will know when its time to do the same thing. A protest is never a waste of effort when it counts and that speaks to the "bigger picture" I alluded to.

#4472234 - 04/29/19 10:48 AM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake

Quote
I've heard people talk about having gaming rigs that stay offline and they only use a secondary computer for online stuff including downloading files that they may need to install on the other machine.

Whatever floats your boat. I don't think it's a practical solution, but it could be "a" solution.



The gamers who have such a scheme (100% offline PC for gaming) is a rather small and older demographic which will eventually die off.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4472242 - 04/29/19 12:48 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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If someone can afford to buy a new desktop/laptop then by now they should be using Windows 10 when even some of the most obscure government agencies who receive the least amount of operating funds have done so


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4472243 - 04/29/19 12:52 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
If someone can afford to buy a new desktop/laptop then by now they should be using Windows 10 when even some of the most obscure government agencies who receive the least amount of operating funds have done so



Even USCIS went to WIN 10 a couple of months ago. LMAO


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4472244 - 04/29/19 01:03 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: F4UDash4]  
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#4472248 - 04/29/19 01:30 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
Originally Posted by Coot
Does Windows Defender support Windows 7 or is that a Windows 10 program?

It's the Windows 10 successor to WIndows 7's Security Essentials, with more functionality.


I have Windows 7 and I have Windows Defender. My plan is to build a new rig within the next 2 years and it will be a Windows 10 rig. I will retain my Windows 7 rig and that should hold me until I turn back to dirt. yep

S!Blade<><

Last edited by Blade_Meister; 04/29/19 01:31 PM.
#4472253 - 04/29/19 02:31 PM Re: Windows 7, the End is Near [Re: Coot]  
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Originally Posted by Coot
Hey Ssnake, I have a say just as you do, however I don't think anything warrants such a response. I think my statements are being misunderstood and that's okay. My mind it somewhere totally different with regards to this subject matter and perhaps that's my fault for placing those thoughts here. Yes indeed, disconnecting from the internet is exactly what I am suggesting, contemplating and referring to. I'm even suggesting and contemplating for myself an even bigger action. My hope is that others will know when its time to do the same thing. A protest is never a waste of effort when it counts and that speaks to the "bigger picture" I alluded to.

Coot, I don't mean this in an argumentative way, I'm jut not sure what it is you are trying to convey with your posts relating to Windows 7 vs Windows 10. What is it that you think should be done differently, exactly, and why? Software upgrades and OS upgrades have been around since computers got started, and I am not sure I am understanding how you feel that should be changed.


Ken Cartwright

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