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#4470890 - 04/17/19 05:47 PM Re: Video Card Upgrade Question [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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dutch Offline
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Look read again I did wrote down clear the GTX1070 is to much for his PSU, why here coming back to this type of video card. This on youtube is an perfect sample on how to use that adapter, no rocket science nor advice for the use of the GTX1070.

if it can run the GTX660 that was in the Dell option list, it can run an GTX1660ti easy. For checking this I use an PSU calculator. https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator
PSU Power needed,
GTX1660ti 274watt on 12v, PSU advice total 416watt so this is below the 460watt, from your Dell PSU.
The biggest Vcard this XPS 8700 could have in the Dell option list was the GTX660 here it is 297watt on 12v, PSU advice total 433Watt
So the GTX 1660ti even with the needed 2*6->8 adapter, would be a safe choice, the same on the GTX1060 btw. The 6 copper wire from the PSU can handle the power thats going true it.

For mr Sopwith as I wrote down: go to the Dell forum, do a search like “XPS 8700 videocard” or “XPS 8700 graphic card” and you will tons on info about that upgrade. Be sure it will fit in your small PC case.



Last edited by dutch; 04/17/19 05:53 PM.
#4470891 - 04/17/19 05:49 PM Re: Video Card Upgrade Question [Re: kksnowbear]  
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CaptSopwith Offline
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Originally Posted by Polovski
OK moving this to technical it's getting far to detailed in technical information for WW2..


I've had a knack for that lately! wink

Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Originally Posted by devere
You can get a sata to 8pin adapter on Ebay for a couple of quid. ATM the 1660 or 1660ti give such a boost in performance over the 1060 it really is a no brainer, and it will last you many years longer.

As for PSU I always have a spare sitting in my cupboard any way as they are the most likely to fail item on any PC and they are dirt cheap to buy.

As to the 1050ti, pointless card. Only £40 quid cheaper than the 1660, yet only gives about the same performance as a GTX960.


Just because you can buy an adapter somewhere, doesn't make it a good idea. They made and sold USB extension cables from the day USB was introduced, yet such cables were explicitly forbidden by the original USB spec.

As I already explained above, the 8-pin connector itself is only part of the issue. By spec, any card that has such a connector can draw more than the 150W which the PCIe slot and a 6-pin connector can provide. Think about it: There's no way a company would put an 8-pin connector on their cards, thereby limiting the potential places it can be used and thus limiting sales, if it weren't necessary. If it were within spec, they'd use a 6-pin connector because it will work with all the 6-pin setups and all the 8-pin setups (given the 6+2 type connectors). Otherwise, the card manufacturer has to include an adapter, which still assumes there are two 6-pin connectors available, or force you to buy one before you can use their card. They'd be limiting their own sales for no good reason.

Not only that, if you use a SATA adapter, you (potentially) still have the current being pulled through one lead back to the PSU - only now, you're using the SATA connector that may also power all your drives. Probably not good. That single lead is conducting at least 6.2A, and there are mechanical crimps, mating pins etc to add resistance and points of failure. GPUs tend to draw more than most other components in PCs for gaming, and that's not really the place where you want a lot of questionable ideas hooked together.

By spec, if a card has an 8-pin connector (regardless of what you try to 'adapt' it to) then the card can draw up to 225W (75 for the PCIe slot + 150 for the 8-pin). Although it's not required to draw that, if it has an 8-pin connector, that means it draws more than 150W. The OP's PSU is fine with a card that draws 75W, even 150W almost certainly. But the cards you're talking about have 8-pin connectors, and that means over 150W, up to 225. I think it's a risky proposition, even though I did say it may well work. As with the adapter: Just because an arrangement appears to work initially doesn't mean it was ever really a good idea.

By the way, I'm also pretty sure the 12v power limit on SATA connectors is around 55W - and that's about 30% less than the 6-pin PCIe connector can provide, never mind that it's about 65% less than the 8-pin connector you're plugging it up to.

Again, will it work? It might, at least initially. Good idea? Well...not according to everything electronics and the specs say, no. I wouldn't recommend it because I wouldn't want someone to run into problems down the road.

Keep in mind it's also the original PSU , which has been around a while (admittedly, I'm assuming here). Using an older PSU to drive that much more of a load than it's ever had to, when it's already dated...well...if you say so. Not the best idea I've heard in the 35 years I've been in electronics.

And don't forget the heat constraints. If a card uses more power (as evidenced by the 8-pin connector), then it will generate more heat, probably worsening the potential for cooling problems.

Finally, as for cost - obviously, you've never been in a situation where even a few dollars makes all the difference. I indicated above that there are several models of 1060 cheaper than 1660s on NewEgg currently, so if budget matters (and it always does) then a few dollars more might be prohibitive for some people. Even when you know a few more dollars could buy you much more performance...if you can't afford it, you can't. It's very presumptuous to say something is "pointless" when you don't know someone else's situation.

(EDIT: I looked on NewEgg just now, and the least expensive 1050Ti was $160, while the least expensive 1660 was $220. So, it's actually $60 more - which is another 37.5%. May not seem like much, but if you're already strapped to come off the $160, the 1050s are great cards and this is widely known. No one's questioning that 1660s are better cards, but cost is cost.) As I mentioned, it will depend where and when you shop.


Thank you kksnowbear and everyone else for all of your very kind advice! My apologies for my delay in responding back - it's been a hectic week and I've just now gotten some time to write back.

Based on everything I read here on the board, including all of the very detailed explanations about power loading, I decided to order the 1050ti 4GB card from Dell. My thinking is that the rig I'm on is a 4 year old chassis, with a 4xxx series i7. A 1060 would, I think honestly, be overkill for what this rig is capable of. My monitor, which I also finally upgraded last year, can only run up to 1920x1080, so it seems like the 1050ti would be the saner, and far less expensive option. Dell had a discount on the card, with free shipping for $209 and it falls under my system's extended warranty - so all good things. The 1060, by contrast, was running in the upper 300 range.

My other concern, as kksnowbear rightly pointed out, is power drain under load. While the Dell has a great PSU and the agent assured me that either card would be a good option, the 1050ti pulls a little less, and for someone seeking longevity out of a rig, I'm all on board with that.

Plus, looking at this benchmark: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-745-OEM-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1050-Ti/2638vs3649 a 223% upgrade in overall performance over my aging 745GTX is a no brainer at that price point. (After all gents, I've got a wedding and a honeymoon coming up!).

Thanks so much again! Very much looking forward to diving into WoTR and getting even more out of WOFF and my other games - especially titles like ARMA 3, my old Total War titles, and Cities Skylines (which currently runs at the lowest possible settings).

Cheers and thank you!



Last edited by CaptSopwith; 04/17/19 05:51 PM.
#4470931 - 04/17/19 10:55 PM Re: Video Card Upgrade Question [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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CaptSopwith, I'm glad if this has helped you decide. I trust your choice was for the best, considering the circumstances (as I appreciate that only you truly can). I believe the upgrade will be a significant step forward for you. And congrats on the wedding. All the best to you and the future Mrs. Capt smile

Dutch, sorry if anything I'm saying seems confrontational to you - please be assured I mean no disrespect or ill will. I understand your points (and I also use that same PSU calculator as well; one of my favorites). BTW a 6pin 1060 as I suggested above, per spec, cannot exceed 150W. Only the 8pin models can. But I do feel your math is overlooking an important point: You can't subtract these values from 460W, for a few reasons:

1. Usage and heat fatigue over time dictate PSUs should be 'de-rated' as they age, as you know.

2. It is not given that this PSU (or any other) can output it's entire rated wattage 100% of the time, and especially not irrespective of temperature. Most do not, especially over about ~30-40 degrees C.

3. It is not wise nor efficient to operate a PSU at full load all the time. Efficiency varies a lot, but is broadly considered optimal in the 50% load range. Regardless, the efficiency of any PSU begins to deteriorate at a rapid slope as you move from 50% up toward 100%. Personally, I usually recommend trying to stay around 75% at most. As for the wisdom, it is all but absolute that running a PSU at 100% load all the time will shorten it's life span. Irrespective of how long or short it may have been otherwise, it will be shorter if the unit is forced to work at 100% any time it is on. Heat builds exponentially, and it destroys electronics over time. Finally, almost every PSU of this type will suffer far more noise/output fluctuations at the upper end of its rated output than toward the middle. Just adds to the potential for instability.

So, given all the above, I'd say this PSU - even if we assume optimal cooling and cleaning, and minimal usage for it's life thus far - should be 'de-rated' somewhat due to age/wear, and again due to overhead/efficiency/best practices. Between these factors, I don't feel it unreasonable to suggest we deduct ~20% from 460W, leaving us about 368W. If we then subtract even the lesser of the loads you cited (274W @ 12v), we are left with less than 100W for everything else in the PC - that is, the CPU, RAM and chipset, onboard devices such as network adapter and sound guts, as well as any drives, the system's fans, plus any external devices powered by the PSU such as with USB (TrackIR, joystick, pedals, mouse, keyboard...).

To be honest, I think it's pushing things too far to expect all that from 100W. As I listed above, per Intel that's an 84W CPU. If there are 4 sticks of memory, that's approaching 20W by itself (especially if high-speed/"XMS" type), and you can go on from there. I do factor in that these figures are maximum (including the GPU), and I said earlier that they usually operate a good deal lower. But, for the purpose of load calculations, it's best to use the max figures so you won't ever exceed that amount. The last thing anyone needs is things getting flaky when they're working hardest.

For these reasons, I believe it best to stay toward the conservative end of the scale in terms of GPU (and it's cheaper, too).

In fact, I usually take the GPU TDP and add 300W (rule of thumb/guideline) to rate a PSU - and then, of course, check that against good references. So far it seems to hold up well.

I hope you can understand.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 04/17/19 11:27 PM.

No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4470932 - 04/17/19 11:06 PM Re: Video Card Upgrade Question [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Lou, thanks so much for your kind words. It really does mean a lot, coming from you smile May I say that I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversations and 'projects', and everything I've learned from your fascinating historical knowledge and collection.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 04/18/19 03:23 PM.

No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4471036 - 04/18/19 04:09 PM Re: Video Card Upgrade Question [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Well, I did it.

I decided to go ahead and test the GPU with a PSU that is clearly rated too low. Now, keep in mind: The purpose of this test is not to identify whether or not a given GPU would run with a given wattage PSU. Nope - this test is to demonstrate that "Just because it works, doesn't make it a good idea".

I picked a PSU from my stuff that has all the necessary connectors (CPU 4-pin 12v, motherboard 24-pin, etc) but has no PCIe connectors whatsoever. I intentionally chose the crappiest PSU I could find in the lot: A 300W unit that weighs so little it probably couldn't even actually drive 300 watts for any length of time, and even according to it's own is label, is only capable of 252W total @ 12V. And, to make it really interesting it only has two Molex connectors to connect the adapter I used (two Molex to 8-pin PCIe)...and (you'll love this) both of them are on one lead going back to the PSU itself, with a single, 20ga wire (not even an 18, mind you) to feed the whole 8-pin connector. Lots of crimped connectors, and mechanical pin matings between the PSU and the 8-pin GPU connector.

Hopefully you can see I really wanted this to be "worst case".

I decided not to use the 1070 after all, because it does actually use more power than a 1060, and to be honest I was concerned for the equipment, given my horrible PSU choices as above. So, I took one of the EVGA 1060 SSC cards I have which has an 8-pin PCIe connector and used that.

And, lo and behold...

"It works!"

I even got up the nerve to run a 3DMark11 "P" benchmark on it, to make sure the GPU was loaded; watched the fans come on as usual. during the second frame rate test (they're off at minimal loads) It finished the entire run, with no indication it was struggling at all. Scored precisely where my records indicate it should. For all intent and puprose, it's ready to go, right?

Well...maybe not. I did reach over to the wires feeding the GPU's 8-pin connector. And it was warm, especially right at the point where the first Molex 'daisy chains' to the second, right where I'd expect it to - where all that resistance is going to occur, from pins and mechanically crimped connectors. Not melting insulation warm...but warm enough I'd have concerns about closing it up in a chassis full of other components and their heat. And that was from a few minutes of benchmarking, never mind hours of a game running continuously.

I even took some pictures and made a short video, though I don't know if I'll post them or not because now you apparently have to use a third-party host, which I'm not keen on.

Anyway, there you have it: Even though I can make it work under what are obviously dangerous and stupid conditions, I would never (ever) recommend that anyone do something like this. I was pretty nervous running this test under controlled conditions for even a short period. I can only imagine what it would be like to run a setup like this for a long time - but I'd bet money there's someone out there who's done it, if they're not actually doing it right now.

This should illustrate clearly that just because you can do something, with adapters and so on, to make a computer run, doesn't mean it's a good idea, compliant with spec, or even safe to do so.

Speaking of adapters, this should also clearly demonstrate why I'm not a big fan, and how easy they make it to do something totally stupid. Hopefully we all know better than to plug too many cords/devices into those 'power strips'...and this is no different at all.

Best regards to all smile


No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
#4471058 - 04/18/19 06:56 PM Re: Video Card Upgrade Question [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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@KB, Now tell me, what you wanting to achieve inhere, I’m talking about an 2*6 to 8 pin PEG, not going from a Molex to an 8pins PEG. You are talking about something complete differently and I do not think the Molex is being designed for high Amps, to me it appears the PEG is more suited.

Now for the TS, sorry that it end complete OT, but be aware, if installing your GTX1050ti it could give problems in Dell systems specific, even if you have deleted all the drivers by using a Vcard driver cleanup software or reinstall your HD. Wayback in 2009 I did do modifications on my Dell 521, like another Vcard etc. all to play OFF3 at a decent level and I did encounter that freaking Dell problem. I know it is now 10y later but If facing that problem, you never know, read my remarks as the solution can be found in this post.

Now I will not bother you with my talk and stop from now.
Good luck.

Last edited by dutch; 04/18/19 07:16 PM.
#4471062 - 04/18/19 07:21 PM Re: Video Card Upgrade Question [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Those adapters are sold all the time, just like the one mentioned earlier (a SATA to PCIe). And most people don't even remotely know the difference. All they see is that, physically, it connects what they have to what they need want.

My point is that adapters of any sort can be very misleading. One problem with the 2x6 type you are referring to is that they can be connected, as I explained, to two 6-pin connectors that are on the same lead back to the PSU (just like with the Dell in the video you posted).

These adapters exist for one simple reason: To allow a video card manufacturer to sell a card to someone who would otherwise also have to buy a new PSU.

The designer of your PSU knows: If it was intended to drive an 8-pin load, there would be an 8-pin connector(s) on it. Nobody ever made a power supply and put 6-pin connectors on it when it could support 8-pin loads...though they have done the opposite many, many times (more connectors than PSU can support in actual load). Marketing. Stupid.

The guy trying to sell you the video card doesn't know anything about your PSU - he just knows you won't buy his graphics card if he doesn't make it so that you can use it. So, rather than lose a sale, he spends a little bit more to include an adapter. Again, marketing.

Once again, my test demonstrates just because 'it works' doesn't make it a very good idea. I did it because I know how stupid it is. Anyone else trying it is probably doing it because they have no idea how stupid it is. All they know is they got an adapter that will work, and some guy did it on the internet...so it MUST be OK...they wouldn't make and sell these adapters if it weren't safe to use them...

Last edited by kksnowbear; 04/19/19 12:11 PM.

No one has ever successfully completed the Stutter Challenge. Speaks volumes that someone would claim to be a winner because he cheated (Barry Bonds*)

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating - Sophocles
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