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#4469987 - 04/11/19 05:07 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
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#4470002 - 04/11/19 06:19 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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#4470015 - 04/11/19 08:33 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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WhoCares and Zamzow, you both forgot to take into account the rotation of our solar system near the outer limits of one arm of our galaxy, not to mention the likely motion of the galaxy itself trough space (although the last one might be difficult to calculate).

As for the image, to me it's interesting in an "old photograph of unnamed people doing mundane daily tasks which haven't changed significantly since the photo was taken in the 1870's" kind of way. How much government money (from any and all governments involved) was spent to get it and how much will it and any knowledge gained from it directly benefit desperate people?


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#4470043 - 04/11/19 11:07 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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Boy you're a stinker, vonBaur.

Who cares how much it cost?

We're looking at a black hole! This is a monumental achievement for mankind!

#4470056 - 04/12/19 12:04 AM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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I don't get it, this is the real Black Hole and it is swallowing the minds of humans at an alarming rate., yet none of the great scientists seem to have discovered its' devastating effects. sigh

S!Blade<><

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#4470063 - 04/12/19 12:23 AM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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Opinions, Blast. That's all.


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#4470098 - 04/12/19 04:07 AM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman


Who cares how much it cost?



Taxpayers. Like me.




Sometimes money is meaningless. This is one of those times.


No, it isn't.

An existential war for national survival is a time when money is meaningless. Defeating a humanity ending pandemic is a time when money is meaningless.

Taking a picture of a natural phenomenon, regardless of how awesome, is not.

Was the cost of this picture worthwhile? I suppose so given that the cost estimate I saw was about $20 million total, so it wasn't any more costly than a lot of other things we spend money on that are much less worthwhile. What if had been $200 million? No, not worth that IMO. Certainly not worth $2 billion, or $20 billion. So the idea that taking a picture of a black hole is worth ANY amount of money is ludacris. Unless you are just being hyperbolic, in which case don't be.




Complaining about money outside of PWEC is silly. This is a tremendous moment in mankind's history. Don't ruin the moment. :P

(because I /really/ don't want to tell you how I really feel outside of PWEC)


OK, I have not been watching this thread much, but I guess I should have bee. I didn’t see how the original topic could so easily go off the tracks.

So I guess I will have to either lock this or try to sort out and remove the bad stuff.

Last edited by oldgrognard; 04/13/19 08:25 PM.
#4470106 - 04/12/19 07:54 AM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
How much government money (from any and all governments involved) was spent to get it and how much will it and any knowledge gained from it directly benefit desperate people?

This question can be applied to ANY form of fundamental research. And the universal answer to it is,
- we don't know about the practical application
- but one day it will be useful, guaranteed.

The discovery of quantum physics was entirely idle in the early 20th century. But it brough us lasers, computers, cell phones, the GPS system, microscopes for the molecular level, the ability to place individual atoms and to build nano machines, it gave the key to understanding genetics, pretty much any kind of precision chemistry, or the design of new pharmaceutics. So, should we have directed the brains of Max Planck and his fellow physicists to rather work on something "directly useful"? Mankind is vastly better off now because we precisely didn't.
Also, who gets to decide who the "desperate people" are, and what kind of research activity will help them most? Because even if you're acting with the best intentions (and I guarantee you, people who get to decide how to spend other people's money will, in the majority of cases, not decide with "best intentions") you can't know in advance which research activity will yield the biggest benefit because if you already have the answer, it's not "reserarch" but refined application of what's known already.


What good is that newfangled round thing going to do? Grok keeps yapping about his "wheel". I say, it's going to get people killed if they are going to drive around in horse-drawn "wagons" or whatever they call these doodads that they're developing next to Grok's cave. They should better practice their stone throwing skills, gonna help everybody a lot more if they haul in more steaks from hunt, I say. And don't get me started about "fire". If it were god's will that we see at night, he wouldn't make the sun settle!

#4470123 - 04/12/19 11:06 AM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
WhoCares and Zamzow, you both forgot to take into account the rotation of our solar system near the outer limits of one arm of our galaxy, not to mention the likely motion of the galaxy itself trough space (although the last one might be difficult to calculate).
...

Believe it or not, it wasn't forgotten but intentionally omitted. In fact, the topic triggered a bit of a deja-vu moment, as I looked up/discussed the topic of earth/solar system/galaxy speed earlier this year with some colleagues at work.
Based on that, I seriously considered to add the speed of the solar system (relative to galaxy center/SagA*, I guess).
The thing then gets indeed troublesome with the speed of the galaxy, as it is slightly more difficult to define a reference point relative to which to observe/calculate the speed. Back then I looked it up, and I seem to remember that they came up with a few "results", like the speed of the "local group" of galaxies (incl. the Mikyway) , but also others...

#4470138 - 04/12/19 02:34 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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This thread has now entered the "absurdity zone".

This post doesn’t make much sense after I have deleted several previous posts. Sorry. Some posts had good content as well as bad stuff that I deleted. So some good went with the bad.

Last edited by oldgrognard; 04/13/19 08:40 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4470145 - 04/12/19 03:10 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4470151 - 04/12/19 04:24 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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I would argue that the picture in and of itself, while some may consider it cool, does absolutely nothing to actually further any of the mentioned research. The only thing it proved is that we have the capability of coordinating farflung telescopes to focus (more or less) on a single point in the universe an amazing distance from us. But this has been done already, many times over. And the picture isn't that great. It looks like they need to adjust the focal point a million or so light years. Or maybe close the aperture. Or reduce the exposure time.

Let me revise the question then, since money spent is such a touchy subject. Specifically what will be learned from this operation and how will it improve life on Earth for anyone? As an academic exercise, it was a marginal success (too out of focus to qualify as much more than that, in my opinion). As a practical exercise, not so much. Yes, I'm aware of the side benefits of other scientific research, particularly in the space programs. But what new innovations, or even refinements of existing technologies, were developed in the accomplishment of this? None I've heard of.

A couple years ago I took some pictures of the Solar eclipse with my cell phone. To me, it was something of a success, because I had researched declinations and azimuths. I preset the camera based on that and it was almost perfectly positioned: the Sun was in frame, nearly but not perfectly centered). But most of the pictures looked a lot like that one...if you didn't know what it was you'd have no idea what it was. So, good for them.They calculated it right and got the picture they wanted. But on a smaller scale, one befitting the equipment available to me, so did I. And I'm far from being an astrophysicist. So I'm less than impressed. If you want to be impressed, go ahead.

I love watching science programs. And I was excited by the prospect of "seeing" a black hole. Maybe I've become jaded by Hubble and Kepler, Voyager and Cassini. I'm looking forward to What Parker comes up with. But to me, this was pretty much the astronomical version of Geraldo Rivera opening Al Capone's vault (nod to PanzerMeyer). As Shakespeare once said, Much Ado About Nothing. If you feel differently, go ahead.


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4470159 - 04/12/19 04:46 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
The only thing it proved is that we have the capability of coordinating farflung telescopes to focus (more or less) on a single point in the universe an amazing distance from us. But this has been done already, many times over. And the picture isn't that great. It looks like they need to adjust the focal point a million or so light years. Or maybe close the aperture. Or reduce the exposure time.

You have demonstrated with these few words that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about by applying your superficial knowledge about photography to this specific case of radiointerferometry. There simply is no basis for a serious debate of the topic with you.

The picture of a black hole about the size of our solar system from a distance of more than 50 million light years is a triumph of measurement engineering that is almost on the level of the proof of gravity waves a few years ago. It is nobody's fault but your own if you miss the significance of it.

#4470160 - 04/12/19 04:50 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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The difference here, vonBaur, is we've never definitively proven that black holes exist. We have radio telescopes that have given us clues, utilized gravitational lensing, x-rays, galactic rotation and more, but we were never sure. Here, seeing /is/ believing. The first photographic proof that these things truly exist. And not only that, but they exist in the way we have modeled and predicted through various theories and calculations.

This experiment verifies our methodologies, which is valuable in that we don't have to throw out existing science and start over. We can continue down the path we started a century ago, which may lead to greater discoveries.


Your example, vonBaur, a photo of the moon during eclipse, doesn't even compare nor deserve to be in the same category. We know the moon exists--we can see it every day. Black holes--not so much. And the physics behind those black holes--absolutely not.

The image is grainy because they had to take multiple images from multiple telescopes to form a virtual lens the size of our planet to form this composite image. You are familiar with the inverse square law, no? Are you also familiar with how photons travel through space from their origination point? The inverse square law is a simplified way to see something you can't, but at a distance of over 53 million light years, those rays ten spread out significantly, thus the need for a lens the size of our planet. They did this without constructing such a physical lens, which saved us trillions of dollars, and were aided in this through the use of algorithms which will allow us to observe and collect data on other phenomena that were otherwise unobservable until now.

To make sense of this, imagine a hundred boats leaving port, each with a vector one degree off from the other. At one hundred yards, they won't be that far apart. At a mile, it will be noticeable. At a hundred miles--/very/ noticeable. At a million miles? They might not even be able to see one another. Now imagine being a billion miles away and trying to create an image of those boats in one frame. The inverse square law works in a similar manner, except with rays of light, and instead of trying to piece together an image of all the boats now, we're trying to piece together their original point of journey, but from each of those boats where they are now, not where they were then. We have to catch enough of them to infer their original location and structure. This is likely a poor example and not clear enough, but know that seeing something at that distance in such detail and resolution as a photograph of your brothers, sisters, friends and parents at the zoo isn't only unlikely, but quite impossible.

So we don't look at the fine details, we look at the changes over time from a string of images, to determine the interactions of matter with spacetime in the accretion disk outside of the event horizon. By stringing together a series of images, we can learn huge amounts of information.



I once looked at a ten second video of a coronal mass ejection from our sun, strung together over time, and showed it to my father-in-law. He thought it was interesting but didn't think much of it. To most it would look the same. But to a trained eye, one can follow the path of the CME to infer the slope and curvature of spacetime and more, to generate a better understanding of the physics behind our reality and verify if what we are doing is truly correct.

To go from here to the moon, we might be able to use a slide rule. To go from here to Andromeda, if we use a slide rule we might end up lost in space forever.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 04/12/19 04:58 PM.
#4470325 - 04/13/19 06:32 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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Remember, scientist are proving black holes exist with the same scientific processes, documentation and calculations that prove global warming.exist.

Tired of people trying to slip in their political shots. You know better and did it with intent. Warning you not to do it again.



Last edited by oldgrognard; 04/14/19 11:02 PM.

- I know those voices in my head are not real, but man they have some good ideas.

- I never killed anyone, but I have read a large number of obituaries with great satisfaction.

- If I cannot make it to your funeral, I will certainly send a message indicating my approval.

- Most of my Friends are Imaginary

- Time is money, so I decided to sell my watch.
#4470337 - 04/13/19 07:40 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
To go from here to the moon, we might be able to use a slide rule. To go from here to Andromeda, if we use a slide rule we might end up lost in space forever.

Or you could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?
xwing


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#4470345 - 04/13/19 08:43 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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Snake, F4U, and Blastman - I will be watching. Keep the squabbling and PWEC content out of Community Hall.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4470355 - 04/13/19 09:32 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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The *best* image from Hubble of M87 is the entire *galaxy* as a moderately sized fuzzy dot, with the jet from the black-hole visible streaming from it.

[Linked Image]

That we have been able to isolate the black hole, a single 'star' system within a 1 trillion star elliptical galaxy as more than just a 'dot' is immensely impressive, especially since it was done within and through our atmosphere.

What is imaged isn't the black hole itself of course, nor even the event horizon, but rather than much larger "first stable orbit" of relativistic matter *just* able to stay in the accretion disk around it.

The angular resolution of the recent image is around 20 microarcseconds. (20 millionths of an arc second...). < roughly the size that last full stop would appear if the screen was on the moon and you were at home, using your unaided eye. That is mind-bogglingly tiny.


#4470414 - 04/14/19 02:56 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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Just so I know what I am looking at...the black hole is the bright round thing in the top left area...right?
Not the gas sort a round thing to the lower right of center....


- I know those voices in my head are not real, but man they have some good ideas.

- I never killed anyone, but I have read a large number of obituaries with great satisfaction.

- If I cannot make it to your funeral, I will certainly send a message indicating my approval.

- Most of my Friends are Imaginary

- Time is money, so I decided to sell my watch.
#4470444 - 04/14/19 08:02 PM Re: Black hole first ever picture happening now! Live stream links in post [Re: Ajay]  
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What you are looking at there is 1 trillion stars (1 million, million) in M87 elliptical galaxy (the bright splodge in the origin of the jet) and the relativistic jet coming from the 1% galactic mass supermassive black-hole at it's centre (the long filament streaming towards the camera). This is the highest resolution image of it from the Hubble mission, though not in the tiny 'dead' area used for the ultra-deep imaging mission. It might be possible to improve on it by an order of magnitude or so.

The new image, as linked higher in the thread is a solar system scale single 'system' of the blackhole (invisible), event horizon (also not visible) and the innermost stable relativistic orbits of the accretion disc around it. A *completely* different scale of imaging and image processing.

It is 1 trillionth of the galaxy only previously imaged as a small bright splodge, and the first time a black hole has been directly imaged, even in part, as opposed to inferred from lensing and orbital mechanics and other astronomical markers.

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