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#4466830 - 03/21/19 02:15 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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How many Ethiopians (aircrews) does it take to report a possible catastrophic control glitch on an aircraft?

Certainly more than the just previous aircrew who failed to even report it in their maintenance log.

Of course Boeing selling an "upgrade" that helps fix a big problem their CHEAP/crappy design is pretty sketchy also.

Low time pilots in big jet aircraft is also a HUGE problem IMO.


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#4466837 - 03/21/19 02:28 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Now the FBI has joined the investigation. That is an interesting development.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...on-into-certification-of-boeing-737-max/


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#4466845 - 03/21/19 02:49 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Too bad there weren't any competent, un-biased investigators around....


"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry 1775

I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4466856 - 03/21/19 03:11 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/re...ed-planes/?utm_source=push_notifications

Boeing charged airlines extra money for key safety upgrades that were missing on crashed planes


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#4466909 - 03/21/19 06:54 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Juan giving an update on the Max 8



Juan is an ex 737-800 pilot now flying right seat on a 777


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#4466970 - 03/22/19 06:05 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
Originally Posted by adlabs6
Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.


this is what i said when i linked previously, how would a pilot cop with this when the system keep restarting ? that is the same as removing control. can the pilot turn this mcas off in flight ?


i already told you!

and i mentioned in in the lionair thread as well! i even posted a video of how to do it in this thread!
flip the switches by the trim wheel into the cutout positions.
or if you don't know how to flip switches..
you HOLD THE TRIM WHEEL STILL. WITH YOUR HAND! THAT'S IT! AIRPLANE WILL NOT CRASH.

the system does not restart. it's on a timer that waits around 2 or 3 seconds from the last input, then does its thing automatically. every time there's an input from the crew, it waits then starts up. if the cutout switches are turned off, it does nothing. if you hold the trim wheel still, or crank it back to where you want it by force, it can't override you.

#4466974 - 03/22/19 09:05 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Going by this video (same guy as linked above, though he is not type qualified on the MAX), there might be more going on with respect to stall warnings while the MCAS also does its adjustments, like a rattling stick and sound and light shows (based on information from the Lion Air crash). So the pilots might have been busy with other stall recovery prevention procedures while MCAS did its "magic". Worst case they are focussed on other displays/consoles and might not even realise that with every manual trim input soon after the MCAS automatically does its own stab trim adjustments. If they realise it, they will most likely use the cut-off switches - why would they want to permanently hold the wheels...

Last edited by WhoCares; 03/22/19 11:32 AM.
#4467001 - 03/22/19 01:35 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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#4467012 - 03/22/19 02:22 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart


Nope. Too late, Boeing. Executives should see prison over this.

I'm really fed up with fines being issued. Over three hundred people died to greed and incompetence. This requires prison to send a message to the aviation industry.

#4467017 - 03/22/19 02:54 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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The issue isn't whether low time pilots should be at the controls. Your every day B737 line pilot is not the Boeing test pilot trained to respond immediately. If both Ethiopian Airlines pilots were "high" time, then who would you blame? The issue is Boeing has potentially (and perhaps knowingly) made a defective product and didn't properly notify and train their customers. Even if every 737 MAX line pilot was the Chuck Yeager of the skies, it doesn't absolve Boeing from making a defective product. The MAX is still defective. This is why the FBI is getting involved.


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#4467318 - 03/24/19 09:46 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Seems the pilots were not able to override the MCAS or better the elevator angle due to limitation to overstress at high speed.
Pilot could have switched off the MCAS altogether, but.. even setting it to off after the start it was not possible to override it anymore due to the blowback effect?
F'n flying computers.

Last edited by Catfish; 03/24/19 09:47 PM.
#4467326 - 03/24/19 10:04 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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All Max aircraft models grounded .... AA airlines canceling 90 flights/day

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/24/business/american-canceling-flights-737-max-grounding/index.html


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4467394 - 03/25/19 02:55 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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The problem with the MAX is that the larger engine nacelles create a lift component at high angles of attack. Being forward of the CG, this decreases the stick force required for further pitch-up. This is a non-allowable certification requirement, because stick force has to increase the more the AoA increases, hence MCAS was introduced, and in a rather sloppy manner it would seem.

Still, that doesn’t explain why basic flying skills seem to have gone out the window. It is also my opinion that a pilot with several thousand hours isn’t necessarily very experienced, if his experience since getting his first jet job at 200 hours with wet ink on his license consists of LNAV/VNAV and A/P on at 400 ft.


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#4467414 - 03/25/19 05:08 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Holy Smokes! As a pilot, his description of what happens in the cockpit during this malfunction sends shivers up my spine. The trim is running wild and every time you try to correct it it goes back to what it was doing. Then the auto pilot pushes the throttles forward and you are completely losing control of your airplane. And add to this, that you are low and slow on takeoff or landing and it's the stuff that gives pilots nightmares.


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#4467447 - 03/25/19 09:33 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Holy Smokes! As a pilot, his description of what happens in the cockpit during this malfunction sends shivers up my spine. The trim is running wild and every time you try to correct it it goes back to what it was doing. Then the auto pilot pushes the throttles forward and you are completely losing control of your airplane. And add to this, that you are low and slow on takeoff or landing and it's the stuff that gives pilots nightmares.

Unless, of course, you've at least watched the news. They've shown how to easily shut the MCAS down completely, several times since the Lion Air crash. It baffles me how seemingly no pilot groups have mentioned it to their members, because this still comes a quite a shock.


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#4467537 - 03/26/19 09:21 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Over-reliance on automation is not just restricted to the actual flying of the airplane. While I can see how this happened, it demonstrates how we can get trapped operating in a bubble trusting the system.

https://www.kcci.com/article/airplane-mistakenly-lands-in-scotland-instead-of-germany/26931138


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#4467549 - 03/26/19 12:22 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted by oldgrognard
Over-reliance on automation is not just restricted to the actual flying of the airplane. While I can see how this happened, it demonstrates how we can get trapped operating in a bubble trusting the system.

https://www.kcci.com/article/airplane-mistakenly-lands-in-scotland-instead-of-germany/26931138

What puzzles me about this one, okay, the carrier filed a flight to Edinburgh instead of Duesseldorf. Pilots + cabin crew arrive at the airport, get their plane and flight plan assigned, and everything points to a flight to Edinburgh. But why does the boarding still treat it as a flight to Duesseldorf? I mean, the passengers would not have boarded the plane if the displays and announcements had told them it's a flight to Edinburgh, no?!?!

With respect to the MAX crashes I wonder when the MCAS really interferes and how that is related to stall warnings etc. Okay, MCAS only "sees" one AoA sensor and when that shows risk of a stall, MCAS reacts. But what about other stall warning systems that take both AoA sensors into account, and in the crash scenario see significantly different AoA readings? What kind of indications/warnings/alarms are triggered in such a case?
Seems the crashed planes had no AoA readout error indicators or AoA dials (said in an article above that those were optional, but now will become standard for the MAX).

#4467550 - 03/26/19 12:41 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: WhoCares]  
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Originally Posted by WhoCares
With respect to the MAX crashes I wonder when the MCAS really interferes and how that is related to stall warnings etc. Okay, MCAS only "sees" one AoA sensor and when that shows risk of a stall, MCAS reacts. But what about other stall warning systems that take both AoA sensors into account, and in the crash scenario see significantly different AoA readings? What kind of indications/warnings/alarms are triggered in such a case?
Seems the crashed planes had no AoA readout error indicators or AoA dials (said in an article above that those were optional, but now will become standard for the MAX).


Really good laypilot article here including animation:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/business/boeing-simulation-error.html

Yes, sounds 'easy', if you've been trained and if you regularly practice, if nothing else is happening in the cockpit, if pilots are sober/awake/alert, if you don't screw up and waste your precious 40 seconds reaction time, if if if ...

Better not to introduce (or to have approved) such a dodgy aircraft characteristic requiring such emergency action in the first place.

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#4467553 - 03/26/19 01:18 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Really recommend reading the comments on the blog post below. The discussion is mostly on the 737 Max issue but some other Boeing related issues mixed in:

http://www.transterrestrial.com/2019/03/21/more-boeing-delays/#comments


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#4467554 - 03/26/19 01:28 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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From above link, sums up my personal thoughts:

"Mike Borgelt
March 23, 2019 At 1:16 PM
There’s nothing wrong with MCAS or the 737 MAX. Those crews were going to die whenever they next had a runaway stab trim motor for any reason including actuation by any of the 4 automatic and one manual methods that can run it.
This whole thing has become a disgusting, irrational political witch hunt complete with grandstanding politicians and agencies.
Just brief the crews on the MCAS and if it or the other 5 systems trigger or remain stuck on, hit the stab trim disconnect switches.
The autopilot is one of those systems so a crew can be fat, dumb, happy and complacent with autopilot on at FL350 and suffer a runaway trim because some passengers moved forward or aft and the autopilot drove the stab trim motor and it didn’t turn off. The airplane will get upset pretty quickly, either up or down.
The crews in the crashes just didn’t understand the aircraft systems well enough to take the timely and appropriate action which is meant to be a memory item."


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
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