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#4466235 - 03/18/19 05:20 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Nixer]  
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Originally Posted by ... but not from ... Nixer
The corrective action is simple and within the capabilities of any competent airline captain to execute. Certainly easier than dealing with an engine fire or loss of multiple hydraulic systems.


I guess that's true, but most aircraft (I hope!) don't have a known design flaw which increases the likelihood of engine fire or loss of hydraulic systems. As I understand, the repositioning of the bigger engines in the Max 8 created a propensity for the machine to pitch nose up, so the MCAS was a kludge, created to help compensate for that design flaw.

OK, I'll say it - a better design option would have been to design a plane that didn't have a propensity to pitch nose up! Back to the drawing board Boeing!

H


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#4466239 - 03/18/19 05:28 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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That quote was from the article I linked, not mine, FWIW.

A runaway trim switch would have put me into a full panic if somehow I was transported into a cockpit seat in that airplane.


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#4466318 - 03/18/19 10:34 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ


sure its always the pilot fault ... did you already forget that case when the pilot was locked out of manual because the automated system though he was making a mistake and continued to pitch the plane ?


it doesn't lock the pilot out of anything.

there's a physical link from the trim wheel to the moving control surfaces.

all you need to do is hold the wheel. it will stop moving. as far as i know this has always been boeing's policy.

besides that, right by the trim wheel are two cutout switches that can turn the thing off completely.

there are also a number of breakers on the rear overhead panel or bulkhead that can accomplish the same thing and more if the situation allows enough time to pull them.

boeing diverged from its philosophy of allowing the pilot to manually override anything with physical force on the control column with this series of aircraft and it has clearly not been implemented well.

but ultimately i still think that this crew's lack of familiarity with flying in general (200 hour copilot?) was probably a major contributor to this crash. not absolving boeing at all - their system sucks. but every 737 pilot in the world should have known to hit the trim cutout switches after the first crash, and grabbing the wildly spinning, clacking trim wheel ought to be an instinct for any pilot with ears. they were probably literally twiddling their thumbs trying to get the trim to work on their yokes like in the first crash. 200 hours is not enough to fly a commercial jet. it's more of a burden to whoever's in the left seat than anything.



what did i say ? https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/18/18270910/boeing-faa-investigation-max-8-mcas-trump

Quote
Boeing’s safety assessment of MCAS understated the system’s power and failed to account for how it could reset itself after each time a pilot responded. Black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor triggered MCAS multiple times during the deadly flight. This led to a struggle between the pilots and the plane, as the system repeatedly pushed the nose of the plane down and the pilots wrestled with the controls to pull it back up before the final crash.


This is on boing lap, and its not the first time...They blamed the pilots in previous accidents, i hope they are responsibilized here

Last edited by Blade_RJ; 03/18/19 10:36 PM.
#4466363 - 03/19/19 02:37 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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This time? Sorry, but I think the Ethiopian Airline pilots were more responsible than the Lion Air pilots. Regardless what was known or not known before Lion Air went down, the issue became public knowledge in its wake. I'm not an airline pilot and I knew about it. If the Ethiopian Airlines pilots didn't, it's on them.

I used to skydive. Membership in the USPA came with a subscription to Parachutist Magazine. And every month, the first thing I looked for, even before the cool pictures, was the incident reports. Knowing what someone else did wrong is the best way to make sure you don't do the same thing. They shoulda known. And the airline shouda made sure they knew.


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#4466530 - 03/19/19 10:09 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
This time? Sorry, but I think the Ethiopian Airline pilots were more responsible than the Lion Air pilots. Regardless what was known or not known before Lion Air went down, the issue became public knowledge in its wake. I'm not an airline pilot and I knew about it. If the Ethiopian Airlines pilots didn't, it's on them.

I used to skydive. Membership in the USPA came with a subscription to Parachutist Magazine. And every month, the first thing I looked for, even before the cool pictures, was the incident reports. Knowing what someone else did wrong is the best way to make sure you don't do the same thing. They shoulda known. And the airline shouda made sure they knew.


Did i read that wrong then ?what i understood is that the system continually pulled control from the pilot even though the pilot was doing the procedure to take back control....i can't see how that is the pilot fault in this scenario, that would be like you hitting break but the car continually cutting the fluid every time you hit the break.
What else could the pilot do ?

#4466559 - 03/20/19 12:42 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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The system is designed to nose over in case of an approaching stall. Apparently, sometimes it will misread the airflow on takeoff (steep angle of attack and relatively low airspeed) and interpret it as an approaching stall. The procedure is to turn off the system and return complete control of the aircraft to the pilot. The switch is located on the console between the pilot and copilot. And I don't fly these things. I don't fly anything except computers.

As I stated, the Lion Air pilots may have been able to be excused, because I've heard several people say it was only addressed initially by a small blurb in the flight manual, easily overlooked. But after that incident the issue, and the correction, were all over the news. At this point it would be like your receiving a recall notice about the brakes on your car but not taking your car in for the fix. Sure, there was a design flaw, but you were told about it and and ignored the warning.

I would also lay significant blame on whomever at the airline was responsible for making sure that all of their pilots were aware of this and knew what to do.


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#4466623 - 03/20/19 12:44 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
Sure, there was a design flaw, but you were told about it and ignored the warning.


Or also, that the warning and training was inadequate perhaps? Heard an interview on Australian radio with a Virgin Airlines Australia executive who said the Boeing re-training package comprised a 45min video and a powerpoint deck.

H


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#4466648 - 03/20/19 02:34 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Trying to find answers in the emergency procedures manual.

Quote
JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...earch-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB?il=0

Lack of training or something deeper in the software?


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#4466669 - 03/20/19 03:35 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt
Trying to find answers in the emergency procedures manual.

Quote
JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...earch-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB?il=0

Lack of training or something deeper in the software?


An interesting read:
https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/


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#4466675 - 03/20/19 04:01 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt
Trying to find answers in the emergency procedures manual.

Quote
JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...earch-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB?il=0

Lack of training or something deeper in the software?


Too much "rules and procedures" and not enough "stick and rudder" training. If the ground is getting closer, by God pull up!

I see our youth too often being taught to regurgitate and recite rather than think and create. Perhaps this problem isn't endemic to America alone.

Alas, not every pilot can be Chuck Yeager, but more of a fundamental understanding of gadget-free flight training would be a boon to all commercial pilots. Basic understanding of stick, rudder, trim wheels and throttle would be a good place to start.

This doesn't absolve Boeing of potential culpability. More data needs to be collected and processed.

#4466681 - 03/20/19 04:28 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: adlabs6]  
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Very interesting

Quote
After the Lion Air Flight 610 crash, Boeing for the first time provided to airlines details about MCAS.


That is telling, and along with the next statement -

Quote
Boeing’s bulletin to the airlines stated that the limit of MCAS’s command was 2.5 degrees.
That number was new to FAA engineers who had seen 0.6 degrees in the safety assessment.
“The FAA believed the airplane was designed to the 0.6 limit, and that’s what the foreign regulatory authorities thought, too,” said an FAA engineer. “It makes a difference in your assessment of the hazard involved.”


Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


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#4466683 - 03/20/19 04:33 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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#4466688 - 03/20/19 04:51 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt

Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


Still, holding the trim wheel stops the trim physically and also resets the MCAS timer delay.

It's never so busy that both crew members need to be hitting all kinds of buttons with both hands at the same time - both incidents could have been avoided if someone had grabbed the trim wheel. It can also be forced back to neutral with a strong grip, even if the yoke trim switch is not listening to you.

Lookie here, this video is from 2016, way before the MAX trouble started.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQirIH_DuAs

There are also good old stick and rudder techniques (Cross controls, lots of rudder) that let you hold up (Or down, if necessary) the nose of just about any airplane regardless of how screwed up the trim is. Changing engine thrust can also help. Rudders on big jets are very powerful, and with careful banking it is possible to rescue a very screwed up aircraft. I'm sure any of you who ever got your airplane shot up in old WW2 simulators have some experience nursing a plane back like this. Airshow pilots do this often as well. 200 hour copilots in a brand new jet.. not so much.

Boeing really screwed up, but I think the reason we haven't seen accidents like this in Europe and North America is because the pilot standards are way higher and the overall total flight times of the crews are way higher in general, and more evenly split between the two pilots flying.

#4466694 - 03/20/19 05:03 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.


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#4466729 - 03/20/19 08:56 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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And now it's being reported that a pilot catching a ride in the jumpseat of an airliner prevented a similar disaster by switching the MCAS off the day before the Lion Air crash. Meaning that someone knew even then how to recognize the symptoms and correct the problem. So the information was out there. It's a question of whether or not you care enough to take it seriously.


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#4466736 - 03/20/19 10:11 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: vonBaur]  
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Originally Posted by vonBaur
And now it's being reported that a pilot catching a ride in the jumpseat of an airliner prevented a similar disaster by switching the MCAS off the day before the Lion Air crash. Meaning that someone knew even then how to recognize the symptoms and correct the problem. So the information was out there. It's a question of whether or not you care enough to take it seriously.



And I believe I read that a maintenance issue with the Lion Air jet was the root cause of the MCAS engaging, IE MCAS only thought the aircraft was approaching a stall because of a faulty AoA reading that was a result of poor maintenance of the instrumentation/sensors.


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#4466742 - 03/20/19 10:50 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: adlabs6]  
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Originally Posted by adlabs6
Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.


this is what i said when i linked previously, how would a pilot cop with this when the system keep restarting ? that is the same as removing control. can the pilot turn this mcas off in flight ?

#4466745 - 03/20/19 11:07 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
Originally Posted by adlabs6
Originally Posted by Alicatt
Along with what they were saying about it being more than what the pilots themselves could command as trim input


If I understand the article correctly, it's interesting that the MCAS maximum of 2.5 degrees correction was reset and applied again, each time the pilots disable the system, and it auto-restarted. IIRC the article said this cycle happened 21 times over the course of those final minutes.

I wonder how this looks from the pilot's perspective, compared to a trim runaway? The trim wheel isn't just spinning continuously... a good part of the time, the wheel would be stopped, it would seem. Ratcheting up in small increments, over and over, and as you mention, with a cumulative input value greater than could be manually commanded.


this is what i said when i linked previously, how would a pilot cop with this when the system keep restarting ? that is the same as removing control. can the pilot turn this mcas off in flight ?

Yes, it seems he can, it happened the day before on the same aircraft as mentioned in the post above yours by F4U, I had read that on another news feed. I guess it was not the same two pilots flying the aircraft then.


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#4466798 - 03/21/19 10:34 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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As a non-pilot, my take on this discussion is that with better training and more information, these pilots could have overcome the deficiencies in the flight control system.
I do not ever want to fly on a plane where the pilots have to fight the aircraft for control in normal flight or turn off key flight control systems in order to avoid crashing. This sounds like an inherently unsafe aircraft if it is that vulnerable to failure.
Yes, the pilots should have known better, but no, they should never have been put into that position on a commercial airliner with hundreds of lives at stake. Clearly the MCAS system was malfunctioning and the pilots were fighting unsuccessfully to keep it from crashing their aircraft. Sounds like a system with inadequate safeguards combined with lack of pilot training, maybe a criminal failure by Boeing to disclose the extent of these issues to operators of its planes.

#4466823 - 03/21/19 01:45 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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