Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
#4456466 - 01/07/19 09:43 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 857
Zamzow Offline
Member
Zamzow  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 857
Originally Posted by CyBerkut


Considering all the radio frequency emissions we have sent out, I'd say it is prudent to keep listening to see if we have gained the interest of someone out there who may not have good intentions toward us. I think the probability of that E.T.I. is lower than many seem to wish for, but the potential cost of being wrong about it warrants keeping our ears and eyes open.


Due to the inverse square law radio frequencies originating from Earth (unless specifically focused in a certain direction) become indistinguishable from all the "background noise" of the universe after "only" a few light years distance (yeah, after "only" a few tens of trillions of miles...).

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4456467 - 01/07/19 09:45 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,470
Blade_RJ Offline
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Blade_RJ  Offline
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Hotshot

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,470
brasil
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by CyBerkut
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
Originally Posted by Clydewinder
i there is no evidence that knowledge or stories are passed from one generation of whales to the next which puts them at a permanent LEVEL ZERO in the field of bettering themselves.





and you know that HOW exactly? we only recently found out elephants do that, and its been especulated since i was a kid, but "scientists" could not acept it. if we see earth from space we will not have any clue from humans intelligence other then we live in big colonies. would an extraterrestrial even understand what "work" is when observing us ?


I imagine seeing all those lights on at night would be a pretty significant visual clue. If they can detect Radio Frequencies, they certainly would have to conclude there was intelligence down here... ( at least until they figure out how to decode and interpret those transmissions, anyways... )


It's very possible any sufficiently advanced civilization has moved past radio frequencies. We've only been broadcasting for a hundred years or so--so even if we're transmitting, they might not even be listening because RF is quite primitive.


Also wasnt a few years ago explained that our transmissions won't go as far as previously imagined because of background radiation ? (or something like that), so maybe no one will ever watch i love lucy...i'm sure they would deem us worthy if they had watched that show.

#4456505 - 01/08/19 06:07 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 26,034
wheelsup_cavu Offline
Lifer
wheelsup_cavu  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 26,034
Corona, California
Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
[quote=Mr_Blastman]Also wasnt a few years ago explained that our transmissions won't go as far as previously imagined because of background radiation ? (or something like that), so maybe no one will ever watch i love lucy...i'm sure they would deem us worthy if they had watched that show.

I remember something of that nature too but I thought it had to do with the signals degrading to a point they were no longer intelligible. Either way the theory we were told as kids that the transmission just radiated into space forever and could be reconstituted when they reached another receiver was refuted.


Wheels


Cheers wave
Wheelsup_cavu

Mission4Today (Campaigns, Missions, and Skins for IL-2)
Planes of Fame Air Museum | March Field Air Museum | Palm Springs Air Museum
#4456509 - 01/08/19 06:38 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Zamzow]  
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Arch0001 Offline
Junior Member
Arch0001  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.

#4456511 - 01/08/19 08:16 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,529
Lieste Online sigh
Senior Member
Lieste  Online Sigh
Senior Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,529
Our radio signals are only visible for a hundred-ish light years, no matter how powerful they were/are, or how tightly focussed.

The start-date of the transmission strongly limits how far the EM can be seen at any particular time. 1 light year per year of time since the broadcast.

#4456516 - 01/08/19 08:42 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Arch0001]  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,361
Ssnake Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Ssnake  Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,361
Germoney
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.

That is a simplification that is, most likely, wrong.
I'm saying "most likely" because there's a loophole in modern physics:
  1. Gravity is ridiculously weak compared to all other natural forces (magnetic, electric, weak, and strong force); it's actually weaker than the weakest of the four by a factor of 10 to the power of 30, the only reason why a magnet the site of your fingernail can actually lift anything against the gravity created by this entire planet --- which makes no sense at all when you start thinking about it.
    As a consequence, it's exceptionally hard to gather hard measurements of such a weak force as soon as your involved masses go down, so the current model of gravity cannot be experimentally falsified below a certain threshold since the gravitational pull gets lost in the noise of other forces that influence tiny things so much more, such as collisions with molecules.
    This leaves room for speculation that gravity might show certain discontinuities at the quantum level, but again:
    - there is no accepted scientific theory that predicts this
    - there is no experiment to falsify such a claim (and if a statement cannot be falsified, is it still science?)
  2. Some people wish that gravity would show discontinuities at the quantum level since it would make it so much easier to develop a Grand Unified Theory. We have two competing physical models at the time, the Theory of Relativity which has been tested in an extraordinary number of cases, and always "won" over the critics - starting with the light bending that was observed in 1910 during a solar eclipse. And then there's Quantum Physics, which also works exceptionally well to describe the behavior of tiny things, such as electrons. Millions of experiments have supported Quantum Physics, we're applying its laws in everyday electronic appliances. So, both theories could be considered as about as hard science as it gets, except that there's no quantum explanation of gravity that could be falsified in experiments; which is one of the reasons physicists convinced politicians to invest billions into the Large Hadron Collider, in the hope of finding such a trace. Unfortunately, it found nothing but the Higgs boson, and it's increasingly likely that they won't find anything else.
    (Yes, modern theoretical physics is in a crisis.)

- Very light further reading about the topic
- Light further reading about this
- Super-speculative reading about this, the polar opposite view to that of Ms. Hossenfelder (the second suggestion).

#4456517 - 01/08/19 08:44 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Lieste]  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,361
Ssnake Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Ssnake  Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,361
Germoney
Originally Posted by Lieste
Our radio signals are only visible for a hundred-ish light years, no matter how powerful they were/are, or how tightly focussed.

...except for that one unfortunate Arecibo transmission.

#4456518 - 01/08/19 08:51 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Ssnake]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,529
Lieste Online sigh
Senior Member
Lieste  Online Sigh
Senior Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Ssnake
Originally Posted by Lieste
Our radio signals are only visible for a hundred-ish light years, no matter how powerful they were/are, or how tightly focussed.

...except for that one unfortunate Arecibo transmission.


That is only visible for 44-45 light years. It is 'aimed' at something 25,000 light years away, but it will take a wee while to get there and by then it will be SEP.

#4456549 - 01/08/19 05:05 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Arch0001]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,446
Mr_Blastman Offline
Senior Member
Mr_Blastman  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,446
Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.


Oh please. Just because there isn't a unanimously accepted unified field theory yet uniting quantum mechanics with general relativity doesn't mean that fermions magically get to ignore gravity and can do whatever they want. Like a pot of boiling water, if you send them into a gravity well, time dilation will apply the same to them as anything else. This can be seen with atomic clock experiments in space versus those on Earth. Gravity doesn't "go away" unless you ascend to a higher dimension(in theory), and bosons such as the Higgs boson bind fermions with spacetime.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 01/08/19 05:08 PM.
#4456610 - 01/09/19 01:55 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 857
Zamzow Offline
Member
Zamzow  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 857
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.


Oh please. Just because there isn't a unanimously accepted unified field theory yet uniting quantum mechanics with general relativity doesn't mean that fermions magically get to ignore gravity and can do whatever they want. Like a pot of boiling water, if you send them into a gravity well, time dilation will apply the same to them as anything else. This can be seen with atomic clock experiments in space versus those on Earth. Gravity doesn't "go away" unless you ascend to a higher dimension(in theory), and bosons such as the Higgs boson bind fermions with spacetime.


Not to mention gravitational singularities (aka black holes) are smaller than molecules - those tend to have pretty big gravitational effects.......

I think what he's getting at is how at the molecular level the electromagnetic force is roughly ten decillion times stronger than the gravitational force. It's also a frame of reference thing - imagine a cloud of gas hurtling toward a star (thus experiencing an extreme gravitational event). Assuming there actually are molecules (say, a water cloud instead of a gas cloud like hydrogen) - there is a gravitational force between all particles involved at the molecular level, but the electromagnetic force is so much stronger the gravity is irrelevant (again, relative to each other, not relative to the star they're all falling into). Gravity becomes dominant the minute you start going toward the macroscopic, because at that point you have so many positive and negative charges the electromagnetic force cancels itself out.

#4456684 - 01/09/19 08:05 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Ssnake]  
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Arch0001 Offline
Junior Member
Arch0001  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Ssnake
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.

Millions of experiments have supported Quantum Physics, we're applying its laws in everyday electronic appliances.


Thanks Ssnake. That was very informative.
This sentence is very convincing. It's that it's laws are applied in everyday electronic appliances that is the true test for me, though I would also have given a couple of examples.

#4456685 - 01/09/19 08:09 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Arch0001 Offline
Junior Member
Arch0001  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.


Oh please. Just because there isn't a unanimously accepted unified field theory yet uniting quantum mechanics with general relativity doesn't mean that fermions magically get to ignore gravity and can do whatever they want. Like a pot of boiling water, if you send them into a gravity well, time dilation will apply the same to them as anything else. This can be seen with atomic clock experiments in space versus those on Earth. Gravity doesn't "go away" unless you ascend to a higher dimension(in theory), and bosons such as the Higgs boson bind fermions with spacetime.


Yup, I am inclined to agree. It's the reason I typed "said". That is, "said not to act", though I generally get your point.

#4456686 - 01/09/19 08:13 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Zamzow]  
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Arch0001 Offline
Junior Member
Arch0001  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.


Oh please. Just because there isn't a unanimously accepted unified field theory yet uniting quantum mechanics with general relativity doesn't mean that fermions magically get to ignore gravity and can do whatever they want. Like a pot of boiling water, if you send them into a gravity well, time dilation will apply the same to them as anything else. This can be seen with atomic clock experiments in space versus those on Earth. Gravity doesn't "go away" unless you ascend to a higher dimension(in theory), and bosons such as the Higgs boson bind fermions with spacetime.


Not to mention gravitational singularities (aka black holes) are smaller than molecules - those tend to have pretty big gravitational effects.......

I think what he's getting at is how at the molecular level the electromagnetic force is roughly ten decillion times stronger than the gravitational force. It's also a frame of reference thing - imagine a cloud of gas hurtling toward a star (thus experiencing an extreme gravitational event). Assuming there actually are molecules (say, a water cloud instead of a gas cloud like hydrogen) - there is a gravitational force between all particles involved at the molecular level, but the electromagnetic force is so much stronger the gravity is irrelevant (again, relative to each other, not relative to the star they're all falling into). Gravity becomes dominant the minute you start going toward the macroscopic, because at that point you have so many positive and negative charges the electromagnetic force cancels itself out.


I think your last sentence is an interesting view - especially about the electromagnetic force cancelling itself out.

#4456975 - 01/12/19 03:37 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Arch0001]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 857
Zamzow Offline
Member
Zamzow  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 857
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by Arch0001
Gravity is said not to act at the molecular level. Brownian motion. Drunken walk.


Oh please. Just because there isn't a unanimously accepted unified field theory yet uniting quantum mechanics with general relativity doesn't mean that fermions magically get to ignore gravity and can do whatever they want. Like a pot of boiling water, if you send them into a gravity well, time dilation will apply the same to them as anything else. This can be seen with atomic clock experiments in space versus those on Earth. Gravity doesn't "go away" unless you ascend to a higher dimension(in theory), and bosons such as the Higgs boson bind fermions with spacetime.


Not to mention gravitational singularities (aka black holes) are smaller than molecules - those tend to have pretty big gravitational effects.......

I think what he's getting at is how at the molecular level the electromagnetic force is roughly ten decillion times stronger than the gravitational force. It's also a frame of reference thing - imagine a cloud of gas hurtling toward a star (thus experiencing an extreme gravitational event). Assuming there actually are molecules (say, a water cloud instead of a gas cloud like hydrogen) - there is a gravitational force between all particles involved at the molecular level, but the electromagnetic force is so much stronger the gravity is irrelevant (again, relative to each other, not relative to the star they're all falling into). Gravity becomes dominant the minute you start going toward the macroscopic, because at that point you have so many positive and negative charges the electromagnetic force cancels itself out.


I think your last sentence is an interesting view - especially about the electromagnetic force cancelling itself out.


The electromagnetic force is one reason gravity doesn't just compress everything into black holes. Sometimes this is overcome - a white dwarf star gaining material can exceed electron degeneracy pressure and become a neutron star, a supernova, a black hole, and there are other ways this chain can start...

#4456984 - 01/12/19 09:23 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Arch0001]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 4,880
Alicatt Offline
Senior Member
Alicatt  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 4,880
Limburg
Originally Posted by Arch0001


I think your last sentence is an interesting view - especially about the electromagnetic force cancelling itself out.

It's kind of like fishing for mackerel, fish for one and you get a good fight for such a small fish, but if you have a lot of lures on your line and catch a few mackerel at the same time their fighting kind of cancels out each other and all you are doing is lifting the weight of the fish.


Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
Clan Cameron
#4457008 - 01/12/19 03:32 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Alicatt]  
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Arch0001 Offline
Junior Member
Arch0001  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Alicatt
Originally Posted by Arch0001


I think your last sentence is an interesting view - especially about the electromagnetic force cancelling itself out.

It's kind of like fishing for mackerel, fish for one and you get a good fight for such a small fish, but if you have a lot of lures on your line and catch a few mackerel at the same time their fighting kind of cancels out each other and all you are doing is lifting the weight of the fish.


Yes, very allegorical Alicatt. smile

#4457011 - 01/12/19 04:15 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 4,880
Alicatt Offline
Senior Member
Alicatt  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 4,880
Limburg
Fished for a lot of mackerel in my day biggrin


Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
Clan Cameron
#4457014 - 01/12/19 04:38 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,250
Dart Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Dart  Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
Lifer

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,250
Alabaster, AL USA
I'm pretty content to live in my "gooder enough" Newtonian worldview.

smile


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#4457227 - 01/14/19 04:19 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,879
Mad Max Offline
survivor
Mad Max  Offline
survivor
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,879
NSW, Australia
I would have thought that the Fermi paradox would have got at least a mention.

Me? I think we are the first and only intelligent tech species around at this time.


" if you don’t like the religious Right, wait until you meet the non-religious Right.."
#4457234 - 01/14/19 08:25 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,361
Ssnake Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Ssnake  Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,361
Germoney
IF the dinosaurs developed intelligence and a technological civilization, chances are we would never learn about it from petrified skeletons, and their buildings, vehicles, and other gadgets would have dissolved over the millions of years since their extinction/transition into birds. Could very well be that THEY caused the mass extinction themselves 65 million years ago, and that the comet was just a coincidence. Or maybe it was just as the scientists say, except that maybe it was massive rift volcanos that made this planet near uninhabitable, and the comet was just the icing on the cake.

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Its getting Real Now
by JimK. 06/23/19 04:32 PM
Danger Close
by reconmercs. 06/23/19 04:19 PM
"The Wolf's Call"
by THX-1138. 06/23/19 05:05 AM
VR unexpected results
by DM. 06/22/19 03:56 PM
MLB season so far
by PanzerMeyer. 06/22/19 02:32 PM
More UFO's Being Reported by Military Pilots
by Haggart. 06/22/19 10:32 AM
I thought Ozzies were tough
by KraziKanuK. 06/22/19 07:27 AM
Classical Latin
by PanzerMeyer. 06/21/19 09:54 PM
Happy Birthday Timothy
by Nixer. 06/21/19 01:40 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0