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#4456215 - 01/05/19 10:57 PM Stop looking for inteligent life in space  
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our bias may make us blind to intelligence much closer.

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#4456219 - 01/05/19 11:09 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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If they're so smart, where's their structures, tools, spacecraft and advanced societies?

See, that's where I have a problem with folks proclaiming other forms of life on this earth are so smart. Perhaps they have modest intelligence, but only one form of life on Earth has ever been to the moon.

Still, even with all these accomplishments, man is little different than they were 20,000 years ago, roaming the plains killing each other. We've gone virtually never being able to wipe ourselves off the planet with crude clubs and stones to being able to annihilate all life on this Earth in 30 minutes. Pretty sad.

So much for intelligence, right?

#4456222 - 01/05/19 11:29 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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We make movies. Whales have made no movies. We made E.T. the Extra Terrestrial. Whales made . . . maybe "An Inconvenient Truth" via their vicarious medium Al Gore. Well, I like E.T. better than Gore's movie.


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#4456224 - 01/05/19 11:43 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
If they're so smart, where's their structures, tools, spacecraft and advanced societies?

See, that's where I have a problem with folks proclaiming other forms of life on this earth are so smart. Perhaps they have modest intelligence, but only one form of life on Earth has ever been to the moon.

Still, even with all these accomplishments, man is little different than they were 20,000 years ago, roaming the plains killing each other. We've gone virtually never being able to wipe ourselves off the planet with crude clubs and stones to being able to annihilate all life on this Earth in 30 minutes. Pretty sad.

So much for intelligence, right?


what use has a whale for space rockets,internet and trains ? it comunicates through the ocean , can travels great distance on its own,and they already experience zero g gravity. They got it made fam, we are the ones struggling ,creating the need to supplant our inabilities with tools.

#4456228 - 01/05/19 11:53 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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i think the difference is thus:

lets assume that a whale or a dolphin has similar or equal intelligence to the average human. even if they are shockingly smart, there is no behavioral evidence that the result of their intelligence is any different that a dumb fish that just swims around and eats. yes there are some social aspects to their natural intelligence but ants have that too

and of course intelligence that builds on prior intelligence as in the case of humans cannot be demonstrated anywhere else. a whale from 10000 years ago is no smarter or dumber than a whale today. there is no evidence that knowledge or stories are passed from one generation of whales to the next which puts them at a permanent LEVEL ZERO in the field of bettering themselves.


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#4456229 - 01/06/19 12:18 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Clydewinder]  
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Originally Posted by Clydewinder
i there is no evidence that knowledge or stories are passed from one generation of whales to the next which puts them at a permanent LEVEL ZERO in the field of bettering themselves.





and you know that HOW exactly? we only recently found out elephants do that, and its been especulated since i was a kid, but "scientists" could not acept it. if we see earth from space we will not have any clue from humans intelligence other then we live in big colonies. would an extraterrestrial even understand what "work" is when observing us ?

Last edited by Blade_RJ; 01/06/19 12:19 AM.
#4456230 - 01/06/19 12:48 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Proof of our intelligence is currently in the neighborhood of KZ Andromedae A, for one.


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#4456231 - 01/06/19 12:54 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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#4456235 - 01/06/19 01:09 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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There are documented cases where dolphins protected swimming humans from shark attacks (okay, they also attack sharks without human presence), and they saved a couple of drowning people by keeping them afloat for a while (I concede that they may have been be sadistic a$$holes that wanted to prolong the suffering, and just failed at the job). Orcas coordinate their attacks on sea lions lying on ice floats by swimming in a formation where the resulting wave will topple the float, so they can snag the victim. Which in itself may appear not more intelligent than wolf packs hunting their prey, but then again dogs (and to a lesser extent, wolves) belong to the most intelligent non-human species (together with great apes, elephants (who paint, and have demonstrated to have a concept of self and individuality), and above all, crows (which do not appear to be very kind souls)).

The problem is of course that our ability to communicate with them is extremely limited. It begins with the whales' percption of the world (mostly audio/echo based), their radically different body shapes that largely prevent the concept of tools, and a radically different environment which MUST shape their concept of the world.
Great apes show, like dogs, the intelligence level of approximately three year-old kids. They do not appear to have yet developed a sense of theory of mind (search for "Sally Anne Test" if you want to know more); crows actually do (which is why they are habitual liars, like humans), so they're probably on the level of four year-olds - which is impressive given their small brains.

The most alien creatures are octopi, actually. They exhibit highly intelligent behavior, they are explorative even outside of water (at least one case is known where an octopus left his fish tank in a research facility every night, climbed into other fish tanks, ate the fish, and returned to their own tank before the researchers returned the next morning; took them a while to figure out who the mysterious fish thief was). What's more astonishing is that octopi actually have very short life spans of about three years. The current theory of brain development and learning simply doesn't work with them; some researchers suspect that they may have evolved in a way to encode long-term memory to certain parts of their DNA (the concept is called epigenetics) which, if true, would open an entirely different perspective on intelligence.

So, that's the big challenge. Can we even devise tests to determine intelligence if the other intelligence is so radically different from our own? Will we recognize entirely different concepts of intelligence?
If we can't do that reliably in our own ecosphere, what are the chances that we could do so with extraterrestrials?

Last edited by Ssnake; 01/06/19 08:59 AM. Reason: Clarity, and spelling
#4456236 - 01/06/19 01:26 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
There are documented cases ...


Great post! The short answer is that we are not equipped to properly determine if a creature is, or is not, intelligent.

Last edited by cichlidfan; 01/06/19 01:26 AM.

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#4456238 - 01/06/19 01:46 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Ssnake]  
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So, that's the big challenge. Can we even devise tests to determine intelligence if the other intelligence is so radically different from our own? Will we recognize entirely different concepts of intelligence?
If we can't do that reliably in our own ecosphere, what are the chances that we could do so with extraterrestrials?


Agreed, GREAT post Ssnake.

Fascinating stuff.


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#4456239 - 01/06/19 01:54 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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If your only single definition is a human intelligence, then you will never accept anything else as being intelligent. I read somewhere once the idea that if a lion could suddenly talk English somehow, we still would not understand what it was talking about.

Quote
On the hand, if a lion could suddenly speak English, it wouldn't matter much, because the world that the lion exists in is so divorced from ours, that his expressions, desires, and intents could still never be communicated. The lion doesn't know what a surgery is, or a dinner party, or a joke for that matter. Likewise, we don't know what sort world the lion occupies, so words would be useless. This phenomenon isn't as outlandish as it might sound at first, and even occurs frequently among humans. For example, I had two coworkers who played World of Warcraft constantly, and would talk about it at lunch. They could speak to each other for ten minutes, in English, and I wouldn't be able to decipher a single sentence. It isn't because I didn't understand the meaning of the worlds, but because I had no ability to relate the words to a situation or world that I knew, so the meaning was lost on me. If I can't understand a conversation about a video game I haven't played, even when I've played similar games, how can I be expected to understand a conversation between lions?


Source (with humorous illustration)

My own favourite twist on the same idea comes from Douglas Adams:
Quote
“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”


"They might look the same, but they don't taste the same."
#4456242 - 01/06/19 02:24 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Clydewinder]  
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Originally Posted by Clydewinder

and of course intelligence that builds on prior intelligence as in the case of humans cannot be demonstrated anywhere else. a whale from 10000 years ago is no smarter or dumber than a whale today. there is no evidence that knowledge or stories are passed from one generation of whales to the next which puts them at a permanent LEVEL ZERO in the field of bettering themselves.


Pretty much this. We're the only species on the planet that is knowledgeable of the past, and are aware that it existed. Plus, we're also the only species on this planet that bothers discovering the secrets of the Universe. We don't need to, we are compelled to.

#4456248 - 01/06/19 05:31 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Well, we haven't found intelligent life in Space, we know it doesn't exist in Washington DC, so that leaves pretty much the Ocean to look for it.


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#4456257 - 01/06/19 06:24 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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The question is, what is intelligence anyway? And does it matter

Marc..

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#4456268 - 01/06/19 10:18 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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We are the third most Intelligent lifeforms on the planet.

The second.....?

Well. So long, and thanks for all the fish...

#4456272 - 01/06/19 11:09 AM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by Clydewinder

and of course intelligence that builds on prior intelligence as in the case of humans cannot be demonstrated anywhere else. a whale from 10000 years ago is no smarter or dumber than a whale today. there is no evidence that knowledge or stories are passed from one generation of whales to the next which puts them at a permanent LEVEL ZERO in the field of bettering themselves.


Pretty much this. We're the only species on the planet that is knowledgeable of the past, and are aware that it existed. Plus, we're also the only species on this planet that bothers discovering the secrets of the Universe. We don't need to, we are compelled to.


We don't know that we are the only species with knowledge of the past. That's the problem with this, you are basing intelligence on what humans do. For all we know, Whales could have talked about developing tools, and decided that they didn't want to for some reason.

#4456276 - 01/06/19 01:15 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake

The most alien creatures are octopi, actually. They exhibit highly intelligent behavior, they are explorative even outside of water (at least one case is known where an octopus left his fish tank in a research facility every night, climbed into other fish tanks, ate the fish, and returned to their own tank before the researchers returned the next morning; took them a while to figure out who the mysterious fish thief was). What's more astonishing is that octopi actually have very short life spans of about three years. The current theory of brain development and learning simply doesn't work with them; some researchers suspect that they may have evolved in a way to encode long-term memory to certain parts of their DNA (the concept is called epigenetics) which, if true, would open an entirely different perspective on intelligence.


SSnake,

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Other-Mind...sr=1-1&keywords=octopus+intelligence

It seems you are interested in the subject so you may enjoy this book - some very good information about octopi/cuttlefish intelligence.

#4456279 - 01/06/19 01:25 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Whales could have talked about developing tools, and decided that they didn't want to for some reason.


The primary reason being that starting a fire underwater is really a vexing task.

What we're really talking about is useful intelligence. When the height of intelligence is singing a song about that really great school of herring or krill and goes no further, big whup. Elephants remembering where the water holes are is handy; organizing the herds to dig a well or an irrigation ditch would be much more impressive.

Am I using a human standard? Absolutely. It is the standard for measuring intelligence, as no other species even comes close. If a species isn't using their intelligence to live not only their native environment but finding ways to master others that are hostile to each other they're on the long track to extinction. The few species that have beat the odds all have one similarity - they're rather simple, and therefore robust.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4456284 - 01/06/19 01:43 PM Re: Stop looking for inteligent life in space [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Timothy
Well, we haven't found intelligent life in Space, we know it doesn't exist in Washington DC, so that leaves pretty much the Ocean to look for it.


dont go there, please remove this from your post.

Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by Clydewinder

and of course intelligence that builds on prior intelligence as in the case of humans cannot be demonstrated anywhere else. a whale from 10000 years ago is no smarter or dumber than a whale today. there is no evidence that knowledge or stories are passed from one generation of whales to the next which puts them at a permanent LEVEL ZERO in the field of bettering themselves.


Pretty much this. We're the only species on the planet that is knowledgeable of the past, and are aware that it existed. Plus, we're also the only species on this planet that bothers discovering the secrets of the Universe. We don't need to, we are compelled to.


That you know of, and truth is you dont know, you just ASSUME you know, itis now known the elephants transmit their knowledge orally,and they have excelent memory of safe havens with water, surely that is transmited to the group.

But you expect other animals to write down their knowledge in papers,books etc...remember writing for humans is a VERY recent thing, for the longest time humans transmitted knowledge orally and locally, so one group of human would not have the same knowledge as another tribe because they never experienced what they did.
For exemple, why would a tribe for amazon need to create metal tools or know how to create an thermo isolated hut ? they live in the jungle where wood and strings are abundant,and its hot so they only need to know how to shelter from the rain. What moved human knowledge (not intelligence) was the need to overcome his environment or physical limitation, when you are an evolved species that do not suffer from these limits why would you need to develop tools ?

we needed to use pigeons,smoke,letters,telegraph,phones and now satellites to communicate at distance,meanwhile all a whale need is to click in the ocean, so what use would it have for a phone ?

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