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#4455530 - 12/31/18 05:51 PM OT: Pfalz DIII Prop  
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HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
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Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
I moved this from Sandbaggers build thread to avoid a derailment. besides, i've learned some stuff since then...

I bought my father-in-law a Dumas balsa wood and tissue Pfalz DIII for Christmas. It's right about 1:20 scale (18" wingspan). But it's meant to be a rubber band flying model, he wants to display it, and the kit prop is rather cartoonish for this purpose. I pulled a drawing off of Wikipedia, it says the real prop was 2750 mm across, so a 137 mm two-blade prop... or could I get an actual drawing and just scale it?

My Googling hasn't helped much so far... as a matter f fact it made it worse! At WWI Aero (I think) (I'm so blasted busy...), there was an actual photo of DIII (note DIIIa) with a 4 bladed prop! And no prop cone, but perhaps it hadn't been mounted yet. The prop cone and prop would be so much nicer if properly represented... but now, is it two blade,4 blade???! I don't think I've ever seen a WWI scout or fighter with a 4 blade prop before! Still, many of you know this stuff WAY better than I do.

Thanks all, Happy New Year!


Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX580 OC'd / 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#4455533 - 12/31/18 06:12 PM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
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VonS Offline
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As far as I know, the Pfalz D.III/IIIa variants received 2-bladed props only, plus the prop cone. 4-bladed scouts include the Siemens-Schuckert D.III and D.IV, also some engine-variants of the Pfalz D.VIII. The Pfalz D.VIII powered by the Siemens-Halske rotary has much the same nose shape as the Siemens-Schuckert.

The mid-producton Hisso. SE5a variants usually had four blades, and the BE2/c/e two-seaters, the BE12 single-seater variant too - and some of the multi-engined bombers (Handley-Page, etc.). A 4-bladed prop was also experimented with on some late production Fokk. Dr.I variants...requiring taller wheel/gear assembly for the wider diameter prop, and removal of the "wing" on the gear assembly. Those were tested with Siemens-Halske 11-cylinder rotaries I think. As well possible is that some Pfalz Dr.I triplanes were fitted with 4 instead of 2-bladed props.

I'm sure some of our prop. experts will pitch in (pun intended) with more info. Also, I remember seeing an old photo with a real rarity - a three-bladed wooden prop....that one must have been difficult to carve/laminate...but I don't recall the airplane type now...or was it a seaplane of some kind. Hardly any 3-bladed props in use in WWI.

Happy flying gents' and a happy new year to all,
Von S cheers

Last edited by VonS; 12/31/18 06:21 PM. Reason: Added info.
#4455539 - 12/31/18 07:00 PM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
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HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
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Thank you sir! I wonder what I saw... no time to look now, grandkids just showed up. I was hoping to just buy a wooden RC prop, but cannot find the size.

I do hope somebody pitches in with their spin on it! (can we get a pun train going?)


Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX580 OC'd / 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#4455561 - 12/31/18 09:40 PM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
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Fullofit Offline
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Fullofit  Offline
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Ajax, ON
Drone, have you tried this place?

https://www.justmodelprops.com/

Look under 'Xoar' then 'WWI' then 'German Axial Propellers'.

Also, I believe Fokker tried the X propeller and to prop up my claim here's a pic:

Attached Files cac05e125cd930aaef84f21445b76ce9.jpg

"Take the cylinder out of my kidneys,
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain,
From out of my arse take the camshaft,
And assemble the engine again."
#4455590 - 01/01/19 01:30 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
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Posts: 865
HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
HumanDrone  Offline
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Posts: 865
Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
Wow, Fullofit, the Axial are great looking props! I even saw the Axial logo on one of the Wingnut Winds photos! And for the life of me I can't find that 4 bladed prop pic again... I must've been into the eggnog a bit too much!

Trouble is the scale of the plane is about 1/20th, so roughly 5.5 inch or 14 cm prop would be what I need. So blasted close. But they start at 18 (probably inches).

If anybody can pitch something else at me (besides your shoes), I'd sure appreciate it. I'd be willing to lay up a pattern and cut it out/shape it by hand, if I could get one. (way to keep it going, Fullofit, I almost missed it! and speaking of pitch that 4 blade almost looks like a feathered prop! Steep pitch on that thing!)

Last edited by HumanDrone; 01/01/19 01:34 AM. Reason: Aw shoot, I re-used VonS's pun...

Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX580 OC'd / 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#4455599 - 01/01/19 02:59 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: Nov 2014
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Fullofit Offline
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Fullofit  Offline
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Ajax, ON
Well HD, if you want to screw around and make your own then why not grab a picture of a real one, scale it to size and carve one out with a sharp blade, but I'm not a big fan of the idea.

http://www.woodenpropeller.com

Also, you may visit here:

www.stickandtissue.com


Looks like someone is doing exactly what you want to do.

Attached Files AXIAL_PROP_FOR_200_HP_BMW.jpgAXIAL_PROP.jpgAXIAL_PROP_4_593x768.jpg

"Take the cylinder out of my kidneys,
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain,
From out of my arse take the camshaft,
And assemble the engine again."
#4455634 - 01/01/19 02:12 PM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 239
rtoolooze262 Offline
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Mo. USA
I'm a big fan of free flight scale balsa models, and I see a lot of guys doing just that, carving their own props out of Balsa. A lot of Plans have the instructions and the dimensions for carving the prop.

http://www.endlesslift.com/carving-a-balsa-propeller/

#4455710 - 01/01/19 09:39 PM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,158
33lima Offline
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33lima  Offline
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Belfast, NI
Buy a cheap piece of 1/16th thick Balsa sheet.

Cut a set of strips from it, all a little longer than the required length of your prop, and each about the same width as its required blades.

Using a piece of piano wire or similar, pierce a hole in the dead centre of each strip, where the centre of the prop boss would be.

Thread the balsa strips together, on the piano wire.

Fan them out slightly each side, to approximate the required pitch of your prop - something between 20 and 40 degrees ought to do.

Glue the strips together with balsa glue in these fan shapes, and allow to dry thoroughly.

You should at this point have what looks like two small Spanish-type fans, slightly unfolded to an arc of say 20 degrees, opposite one another and with the piano wire as their axis.

Now remove the piano wire and leaving the boss area alone in the centre, cut the outer extremities of each fan back so looking from the front, they begin to look like prop blades.

Now sand each fan/blade smooth, to lose the steps in your two fans. Shape to get each blade the size and shape you want.

Sand the boss area into a cylinder and add some details from suitable materials based on pics.

Apply some sanding sealer, sand lightly with fine grade paper, and give it several coats of varnish, allowing to dry thoroughly in between coats obviously.

Being made from strips like real props of the time, it can give you a realistic laminated appearance. Especially if you pick different sheets which vary in colour slightly, and alternate the strips. Or even use the same sheet and stain alternate strips with tea or coffee.

It's also very inexpensive.

Technique is from a c.1971 Scale Models article on scratch-building rubber-powered flying scale models from balsa. Was intended to produce large props suitable for rubber power rather than scale but worked well enough to make realistic props for the display models I made using the technique, including an Albatros D.V, Fokker E.III, Fokker Dr.I, Fokker D.VII, S.E.5a and F.E.2b, all now long gone and unphotographed, sadly.



Last edited by 33lima; 01/01/19 09:44 PM.
#4455770 - 01/02/19 01:45 PM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
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Posts: 239
rtoolooze262 Offline
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Mo. USA
That's a great idea 33lima, gonna have to try that sometime!

#4455883 - 01/03/19 04:44 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 392
ARUP Offline
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ARUP  Offline
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Posts: 392
Kentucky
The 'X' prop is a 'Jarray' propeller. My spelling may be in error. In lieu of a static prop cut a properly sized disc from clear plastic. 'Pinch' it with 200 grit sand paper then give it a turn or two so that it gets arcuate scratches. Cut a hole in the center to fit the prop spinner on the model. Voilà! Or... rather... Hier! It will look like a spinning prop!

#4456021 - 01/04/19 03:25 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: May 2012
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HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
HumanDrone  Offline
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Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
Ohhh, sorry gang! I got a vicious cold and was knocked out the last couple of days. 33Lima, I was thinking of something along those lines. Staining with tea or coffee is even better! I was going to use real stain, but for balsa it tends to soak in 'way too much color. Fullofit, thanks so much.. the Google-fu is very strong with you! rtoolooze262, I hadn't seen that one either, though the pitch is very high on his example. Arup, not sure if he wants a spinning prop or not, I'll ask him.

The model doesn't have a prop spinner, so I have to come up with that as well.

Y'all are the best! Thanks and Happy New Year! Keep up the good (virtual) fight!


Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX580 OC'd / 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#4458854 - 01/27/19 01:41 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 392
ARUP Offline
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ARUP  Offline
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Kentucky
I built a Williams Bros. plastic Spirit of St. Louis and did the clear plastic prop. The stand got covered with some cotton stuffing. It was a little hokey but the effect was good enough. I did the same thing with a Travel Air Mystery ship but wires were let into the wings and the model was mounted to a black and white checkered pylon that had weight inside to keep it from tipping over. I was really proud of it. Somebody else liked it, too, because it was stolen from the airport where it was on display.

#4458860 - 01/27/19 03:04 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
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HumanDrone Offline
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Thanks, ARUP and all. Sorry about the theft of your model! Whoever did that is lower than whale crap!

My father-in-law started on the kit and I'm still working vicious overtime, but my brother-in-law snuck the plans away long enough for me to get a scan. The plans do not have a scale prop on them, or the spinner, but from pics and plans I can get there. I scaled that picture that Fullofit provided and got some .040" basswood (labeled as 1/32", so a little thicker than advertised...). Might have some time to pick at it tomorrow, i could use a break.


Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX580 OC'd / 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#4460095 - 02/06/19 12:42 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: May 2012
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HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
HumanDrone  Offline
Just shoot me...
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Posts: 865
Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
And finally, thanks again to all of you. I wish I'd taken a picture of it, but we were headed out and my wife said, "Hey, let's take that and drop it off!' So my father-in-law, who will be 90 in the spring, was quite pleased. I still have to try and get some time to turn a spinner.

I tried to go for the layered effect by soaking half the strips in hot tea most of an evening. It did give some graining to the prop, but it did not stain all the way through. Still it was enough to highlight the contours a bit. There was just no time to retry coffee. The exercise did give me an excuse to set up my Dremel in it's mini-router table; I mounted a small sanding drum on that and used it to shape the prop. Which worked pretty well, it allowed me to "sneak up" on the final shape.

Thanks again, all - you're the greatest!


Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX580 OC'd / 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#4460099 - 02/06/19 01:38 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 392
ARUP Offline
Member
ARUP  Offline
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Kentucky
Use Bass and Apple wood for the laminates. They have a very tight grain structure. Soak in H.Behlens water based stain before gluing laminates. Use Duco cement to glue the laminates. Get busy carving! lol

#4460103 - 02/06/19 02:47 AM Re: OT: Pfalz DIII Prop [Re: HumanDrone]  
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HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
HumanDrone  Offline
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Posts: 865
Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
Well, the basswood worked well. I don't know where I'd find apple wood in .040" thickness - sure not at my local hobby store. I have puh-lenty of Western PA wild cherry, but it was all sawn 3/4" thick. I'd need some kind of veneer saw, but it's a beautiful wood.

You think those water-based stains would soak through, or would the apple wood naturally be darker than basswood? The apple trees on the land I bought next to the house were done for when I bought it, they're long gone now.

I haven't forgotten your spinning prop method, either. A body could put the disk on an arbor and spin it slow on a drill press or lathe, as well - nice, circular scratches!

Thanks!

And after I posted this, and now that the prop is done, I could have acheived the layering very well using just that - veneer! You can get 1/16" and thinner here...
Some days you realize just how dumb you are....!

Last edited by HumanDrone; 02/06/19 02:53 AM. Reason: Of course, I realized this WAY too late...

Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX580 OC'd / 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!

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