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#4447574 - 11/08/18 02:47 PM Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord  
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Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46136564

Norway has evacuated the entire crew of one of its warships after it collided in a fjord with an oil tanker.
Seven people were lightly injured in the collision in the Hjeltefjord near Bergen in the early hours of Thursday, rescuers say. The frigate has been listing dangerously.
The KNM Helge Ingstad had been returning from Nato military exercises.
The tanker, the Sola TS, was only slightly damaged and it appears that it did not spill oil.
It was not immediately clear what had caused the collision, which reportedly occurred shortly after 04:00 (03:00 GMT), and led to 137 people being taken off the warship.


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#4447575 - 11/08/18 02:49 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Glad it sounds like the folks are okay, and also, not being political, but glad it wasn't one of America's warships doing the colliding this time.

#4447576 - 11/08/18 02:50 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Glad it sounds like the folks are okay, and also, not being political, but glad it wasn't one of America's warships doing the colliding this time.


Yes, good to know that no deaths reported. The warship does not look too good based on that twitter image in the article!


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#4447588 - 11/08/18 03:38 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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That video looked bad. Taken lots of water and a serious list to stern and starboard.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4447592 - 11/08/18 04:00 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Yep. They beached her to stop her sinking. Pretty bad, this. One of our most advanced warships. Wonder who is to blame for the collision.


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4447593 - 11/08/18 04:01 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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I wonder how the #%&*$# they managed to do that.

The tanker had the right of way due to where it came from and direction of traffic, so it is entirely the frigate's fault.
How does a modern frigate not manage to detect a supertanker in calm sees with it's sensors or even the Mk IIs or turn away at the last minute? It's not like it takes 2 miles to turn a frigate...

This smells of someone falling asleep on the bridge.

A fifth of our navy crippled :P thankfully they had the sense to sail/tow the ship to the shallows so it won't sink, but still it'll cost a #%&*$# to repair/refurbish it.

#4447598 - 11/08/18 04:22 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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That is some gash,


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4447599 - 11/08/18 04:44 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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I’m so glad they put that “music” to the video. It made it so much more informative and enjoyable.

Why do people think their music additions improve videos?


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4447601 - 11/08/18 05:09 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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I will be surprised if that warship ever sees active duty again. Sad. Hope they prove me wrong.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4447613 - 11/08/18 05:51 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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SHould be easily repaired. Just mostly hull damage and flooding. Just grab a floating dock and ship it a drydock.

#4447615 - 11/08/18 06:00 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
SHould be easily repaired. Just mostly hull damage and flooding. Just grab a floating dock and ship it a drydock.

That is as long as the drydock stays afloat...

Quote
Russia’s only aircraft carrier appears to have been damaged while undergoing repairs after the dry dock it was being held in sank.
One person is missing and four others injured following the incident involving the Admiral Kuznetsov, which had been receiving an upgrade at the one of the world’s largest floating docks in the Kola Bay near Murmansk.


Dry dock sinks


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#4447713 - 11/09/18 02:54 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
SHould be easily repaired. Just mostly hull damage and flooding. Just grab a floating dock and ship it a drydock.


Depends on how damaged the keel is. If it is bent enough to affect handling safely at top speed, it going to get junked.

#4447715 - 11/09/18 03:00 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Glad it didn't sink and take part of the crew with it.


Wheels


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#4448483 - 11/13/18 05:11 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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She has slipped into deeper water, almost completely submerged now. I can't imagine it ever being cost effective to raise and refurbish this vessel now.

Attached Files 46057197_2224667134470766_2185336908471599104_o.jpg

“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4448547 - 11/13/18 10:05 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Yeah, I was proven wrong frown

Lots of speculations in the press here, if the wires keeping it up was erronously attached and so forth. Also about the accident itself.

It will be raised, that is a given. Refurbished is another. The way our pissant #%&*$# military and politicans thinks it'll be probbaly written off and not replaced.

#4451135 - 11/30/18 11:17 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4451153 - 11/30/18 12:48 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Wow, both ships under VTS control!!!!!!

Don't people know how to slow down in questionable traffic situations.

First thing I was taught when still a deckhand and learning to drive just point to point, "When in doubt, pull em back!". meaning if you have any questions on navigation SLOW DOWN to minimum steerage speed.

Was this Naval vessel inbound to port after being at sea for awhile? If so, that says a lot to me.


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I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

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#4451155 - 11/30/18 12:55 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Nixer]  
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Yes it was returning from a NATO exercise. I didn't read the article posted but another article and a watch change had taken place ~15 minutes earlier.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4451160 - 11/30/18 01:32 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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In my old business, a vast majority of near misses, mishaps and, accidents at sea occurred when a vessel was inbound for shore leave, crew changes etc.

When you have been at sea for awhile you take chances to get "home" and off the freakin boat.

I have done it myself, even when telling myself to NOT do it.

Not very often though, and I have pissed off more than a few crew members when I wouldn't go against my judgement to get them home quicker.

ahoy


"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry 1775

I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4451165 - 11/30/18 01:47 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Adjacent compartments flooding because of design issues... not nice.

#4451167 - 11/30/18 02:12 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
Adjacent compartments flooding because of design issues... not nice.



Didn't the Titanic have the same design flaw?


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#4451171 - 11/30/18 02:47 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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I believe she did Panzer. Possibly excusable in 1911 as she was one of the first 'unsinkable' ship designs but a ship launched in 2007? There's no excuse for that.


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#4451175 - 11/30/18 03:14 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
I believe she did Panzer. Possibly excusable in 1911 as she was one of the first 'unsinkable' ship designs but a ship launched in 2007? There's no excuse for that.




Especially not for a warship.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4451176 - 11/30/18 03:15 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Oh and that design is/was in the running for the US Navy's new frigate.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4451295 - 12/01/18 08:44 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
Adjacent compartments flooding because of design issues... not nice.



Didn't the Titanic have the same design flaw?

In a different way, but yes.

#4451304 - 12/01/18 11:42 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Continuing a not very glamorous couple of weeks in Norway’s rich maritime history, a floating dry dock built in 1911 sank outside Bergen a week ago. It was ordered by Winston Churchill when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, and survived both world wars. Amazing that it was still in use! I really hope it will be raised again.

http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/M-Ships/medwaydock1912.html

https://sysla.no/maritim/dokken-overlevde-verdenskriger-dag-sank-den-hjeltefjorden/


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4453117 - 12/13/18 04:17 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4453264 - 12/14/18 05:58 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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This shows first the naval explosive divers removing the anti-ship missiles, then you can see some of the damage of the ship.

#4463120 - 02/26/19 08:23 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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They have started the salvage operation. It's expected to take several days to get it onto the barge to be transported to it's naval port.

A turn of the weather might jepardize the operation and wreck it.


Live feed of the operation

Last edited by EAF331 MadDog; 02/26/19 08:23 PM.
#4463798 - 03/03/19 12:48 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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It's now been lifted onto the barge and is being towed to Håkonsvern.

Attached Files KNM Ingstad.png
#4463805 - 03/03/19 02:52 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Do the navies don't know how to manage ships without running into other ships anymore


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#4463829 - 03/03/19 05:44 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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pathetic how this keeps happening. the design flaw was a ridiculous oversight. is this not yacht building 101 - every hole you put in the hull must be sealed or have a very reliable valve to seal it.

#4469844 - 04/10/19 07:31 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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KNM Helge Instad sails again!

Using the true and tested McGuyver field repair kit it's now seaworthy again!

[Linked Image]

Of course its only going to sail into the dry dock it's next to, and there it will be evaluated. In all likelyhood it will be scrapped. It was in shallow oxygen-rich water so corrosion has set in badly - it would need to utterly refurbished from top to bottom and that is probably just as expensive as bying a new ship,

Attached Files vXsJ3x5s.jpg
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#4469853 - 04/10/19 08:59 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other


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#4469875 - 04/10/19 10:37 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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#4469876 - 04/10/19 10:39 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Or complacency.

Accidents happen. Usually because of human error somewhere along the line.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4469923 - 04/11/19 02:28 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other



In this case it didn't happen on the ocean.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4470032 - 04/11/19 10:32 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Haggart
how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other



In this case it didn't happen on the ocean.


Maybe the watch should be doubled when sailing in congested waters or areas of limited maneuvering room at night. There’s just no way 2 ships should EVER get close enough to collide. If it means there’s no mid rats because the cooks are on the rail with NVGs or some sailors don’t get to go to bed that night, then so be it.


Phil

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#4470039 - 04/11/19 10:50 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: NH2112]  
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Originally Posted by NH2112
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Haggart
how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other



In this case it didn't happen on the ocean.


Maybe the watch should be doubled when sailing in congested waters or areas of limited maneuvering room at night. There’s just no way 2 ships should EVER get close enough to collide. If it means there’s no mid rats because the cooks are on the rail with NVGs or some sailors don’t get to go to bed that night, then so be it.



As I understand this collision it wasn't from a lack of seeing the oncoming ship, but a lack of correctly interpreting its course. In that case more eyes would not necessarily help any.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4470107 - 04/12/19 08:10 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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The best skippers are to be found on the pier, of course. But several factors seem to have compounded
- it was the return from a lengthy exercise, the the crew was anxious to get back to shore
- the captain's decision to run through the fjord under emission control (save for radio traffic)
- confirmation bias that misinterpreted the tanker's position light far too long as the lights of the oil terminal
- change of watch immediately before the collision
- abandoning ship way too soon rather than trying to fight the flooding

Simply reducing speed when they received the first warning that the might be on a collision course might already have helped to prevent disaster, rather than keeping barrelling at 30 knots with radars turned off through confined waters. Even if you dismiss the radio warnings as an error on the civilian ships' side, simply accounting for the possibility that they are right and you might be wrong would have helped a lot to keep an open mind about the situation. At least, that's my take on the whole incident.

#4470142 - 04/12/19 02:52 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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They reenacted the accident with another frigate, the same tanker and on about the same conditions in the same location.

It had no problems avoiding the tanker, and they also enacted several other scenarios, like the frigate having reduced speed when the calls came.

As it is, 3 people have been indicted in the accident - the captain of the watch on the frigate, the pilot on the tanker, and the traffic controller on land.

#4470162 - 04/12/19 04:56 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
They reenacted the accident with another frigate, the same tanker and on about the same conditions in the same location.

It had no problems avoiding the tanker, and they also enacted several other scenarios, like the frigate having reduced speed when the calls came

Of course not. They have the benefit of hindsight and therefore cannot experience the same degree of confirmation bias that prevented the original crew from interpreting the situation correctly. The key to avoiding the disaster would have been to consider that the clueless civilians on the other side of the line actually had an idea what they were talking about rather than dismissing their "opinions". You can't enter the simulator without knowing that the situation would develop into a crash. The original crew did not seriously consider that option. Which, of course, is only my take on the situation, which puts about 95% of the responsibility of the collision on the bridge crew of the Helge Ingstad. I don't know if the oil tanker could have done anything, being all oil-tankery. Maybe the traffic controller could have been a bit more outspoken, who knows. But if you're driving with a somewhat stealthy frigate near top speed in lights out conditions into a narrow water way with sharp edges and other traffic you better be fully alert and extra careful rather than dismissive and overconfident.

But then again, we're all arguing from hindsight.

#4470197 - 04/12/19 08:17 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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The thing is it isn't an narrow waterway, not really.
It's about 5 km across at the collision point. So plenty of room to move

But yes, plenty of variables - like was the tanker in the right "traffic lane" etc.

(The reenactment was done with real vessels, not in a simulation)

#4470214 - 04/12/19 10:06 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
The thing is it isn't an narrow waterway, not really.
It's about 5 km across at the collision point.

Much narrower than the open sea which, even in coastal regions, has a spiky, ship-sinking rocky edge only in one direction, not both. Either way, I remember from the radio transcripts that the H.I. crew thought that they were too close to the limits of their lane to have room for maneuver (and that it was unnecessary because they weren't on a collision course with anyone, anyway, thank you very much).
Clearly, they had a very wrong picture of their situation, I suppose we can agree on that.

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