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#4446776 - 11/03/18 02:41 PM Before the Barron  
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What I'm trying to do here is to track the life of a Jasta, rather than a pilot. The Jasta I chose for the experiment is Jasta 11, closely associated with MvR, who took command in mid-January 1917. Since we have fairly good stats on this unit, I thought it would be interesting to see how it fared in WOFFWorld. I should point out that I'm using the mod that cuts down on HAs to the top 200, otherwise Jasta 11 wold be loaded with HAs. During the months in question, only 2 of the 14 pilots were HAs. So 11 were computer generated aviators, CGs.

Jasta 11 was formed in October 1916 and was disestablished after the Armistice. So it had a life of 25 months. It's generally credited with 350 victories. The Jasta lost 21 pilots--17 KIA, 2 captured, 2 in flying accidents. On average, Jasta 11 scored 14 victories a month, for the loss of .84 aviators. The kill/death (kd) ratio was 16.6/1. There are two ways to look at its losses. Losing less than 1 pilot a month isn't too bad; alternatively, losing 21 pilots in a unit with 14 aviators is a casualty rate of 150%!

Jasta 11 was considered a poor quality unit, until the arrival of MvR. No wonder! If the WOFF aircraft allocation is accurate, for the three months before MvR's arrival, when Jasta 2 was flying Albatrosi, Jasta 11 was flying Halberstadt D IIs and IIIs. The Albatross DI and DII are almost 20 mph faster than the Halberstadt, more maneuverable, and have two guns instead of one. The Jasta was outfitted with Albatrosi AFTER MvR showed up! So was the difference his leadership, or the fact that with him in charge the unit finally got some up-to-date aircraft?

Here are the stats for the period from 11 October 1916 to 11 November 1916. I did not include any kills credited to pilots when the Jasta became operational. The number in brackets under kills is my score. As HAs transfer into the unit, I am not going to include the scores they brought with them. One thing I could not track accurately, was in-game kills by HAs, since they do not always fly with Flight B. I see them shoot down aircraft and balloons that remain un-credited because of how the system works. On the other hand, when they are credited with a scripted victory, I will include that. Hopefully this problem won't throw off the stats that much.

11 Oct 11 Nov
aAircraft Start bPilots Start cPilots End dKills Start eKills End fKIA gAircraft End

a11 HD3 b14 c14 d 0 e10 (4) 4f g 9 HD3
a3 HD2 g5 HD2


In this first month, the Jasta is not living up to the average of kills or KIAs. Nevertheless, it's scoring more than twice as many victories as it's lost. The current k/d is 2.5/1.

I know when I post this message, the spacing on my chart is going to get all screwed up. I've placed small letters ahead of each group which, I hope, will allow you to associate the numbers with the correct column.

Nowi

Last edited by Nowi; 11/03/18 02:44 PM.

Nowi
#4446783 - 11/03/18 02:54 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Nowi, you will likely have Jim Miller weighing in here when it comes to MvR, he is our resident expert and has written and published outstandingly good books on the subject. And if you are in error about anything as regards said subject he will politely, but surely, correct you on it. biggrin

.

#4446799 - 11/03/18 03:17 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Have several of his excellent books.


Nowi
#4447228 - 11/06/18 03:44 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Hey, Gents!

Interesting question about whether Jasta 11's success was because of MvR or the Alb D.III. I'll say a little of both, but largely MvR's training and leadership. Now, I don't believe the cliche "It's the man, not the machine," because if you put MvR in a Fokker Eindecker for the entire war, good luck shooting down the nine Sopwith Camels he did! It's the man and machine. Regarding the man, when MvR arrived at Jasta 11 he brought with him knowledge he learned first-hand from Oswald Boelcke himself. Plus, the primary goal of the Staffel was to shoot down two-seaters, and a Halberstadt should have been able to do that just fine. Against fighter opposition, the RFC had the DH.2, but if Manfred could keep up with Lanoe Hawker while flying an Albatros D.II, surely the more maneuverable Halbstadt could, as well. Additionally, Manfred’s arrival at Jasta 11 was during the dead of winter. There were no offensives to support/suppress, and flying operations were far less than in following spring and summer. I.e., not as many targets. So, while MvR and the Albs arrived roughly the same time, I think MvR's influence was the keystone.

Of course, regarding the machine, having a new one as powerful and armed as the Albatros D.III certainly bolstered confidence! But the Alb D.IIIs didn't arrive en masse, they trickled into the unit—and then they were soon grounded because of structural failures of the lower wings, and the pilots had to fly the Halberstadts anyway. How many Alb D.IIIs arrived at J11 with already-corrected wings, or how many were fixed in field and then flown before the grounding was lifted--which we know happened, due to Alb DIIIs being captured within the period of the grounding--I don't know. The lists I've seen favor the former. But the grounding was from 27 January to 19 February 1917. After that period, having had weeks of tactics training from MvR, now equipped with new Albs, and the RFC increasing sorties to gather intel for the coming offensive, you see the pilot scores take off in March. But if it was only the Alb D.III that caused this scoring increase, why didn’t every Staffel that flew them ultimately have 350 kills? Because every Staffel didn’t have Manfred von Richthofen, Lothar von Richthofen, Kurt Wolff, Carl Allmenröder, and Emil Schafer in it at the same time! Pour le Merite winners all. Festner had 12 victories and seemed on the track toward the PLM himself until KiA 25 April. So, while we can credit both MvR and the Albatros D.III, credit also must be given to these stand-out individuals as well.

As an aside, recently I’ve been snooping around the Jasta 11 Halberstadt inventory. For a long time I’ve seen information that the unit was comprised mostly of Halberstadt D.Vs, not Halb D.IIs/IIIs. There were some of those models there, but the lists I’ve seen favored the Halb D.Vs heavily. But, during said snooping, I was comparing the serial numbers associated with Jasta 11 Halb D.Vs to manufacturing production batch serial numbers. Although Jasta 11 is credited with a complement of mostly Halb D.Vs, all the machines listed as such have serial numbers associated with Halb D.IIIs! So, something is screwy somewhere, or I'm getting my wires crossed. I’m getting to the bottom of it.

#4447237 - 11/06/18 04:38 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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How did the DV differ from the DII and DIII?

Still waiting for MvR and the new planes. Still have more months to post.


Nowi
#4447278 - 11/06/18 07:55 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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The Halb DV had redesigned cabane struts to improve visibility, and aerodynamically balanced ailerons with counterweights forward the hinge line. I believe they all used the 120 hp Argus As.II engine. Some of the machines sent to Turkey used a 120 hp Mercedes D.II engine and had twin machine guns.

#4447287 - 11/06/18 08:39 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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There are no alternative skins for the D III!


Nowi
#4447290 - 11/06/18 09:12 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: JFM]  
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Originally Posted by JFM
Hey, Gents!

Interesting question about whether Jasta 11's success was because of MvR or the Alb D.III. I'll say a little of both, but largely MvR's training and leadership. Now, I don't believe the cliche "It's the man, not the machine," because if you put MvR in a Fokker Eindecker for the entire war, good luck shooting down the nine Sopwith Camels he did! It's the man and machine. Regarding the man, when MvR arrived at Jasta 11 he brought with him knowledge he learned first-hand from Oswald Boelcke himself. Plus, the primary goal of the Staffel was to shoot down two-seaters, and a Halberstadt should have been able to do that just fine. Against fighter opposition, the RFC had the DH.2, but if Manfred could keep up with Lanoe Hawker while flying an Albatros D.II, surely the more maneuverable Halbstadt could, as well. Additionally, Manfred’s arrival at Jasta 11 was during the dead of winter. There were no offensives to support/suppress, and flying operations were far less than in following spring and summer. I.e., not as many targets. So, while MvR and the Albs arrived roughly the same time, I think MvR's influence was the keystone.

Of course, regarding the machine, having a new one as powerful and armed as the Albatros D.III certainly bolstered confidence! But the Alb D.IIIs didn't arrive en masse, they trickled into the unit—and then they were soon grounded because of structural failures of the lower wings, and the pilots had to fly the Halberstadts anyway. How many Alb D.IIIs arrived at J11 with already-corrected wings, or how many were fixed in field and then flown before the grounding was lifted--which we know happened, due to Alb DIIIs being captured within the period of the grounding--I don't know. The lists I've seen favor the former. But the grounding was from 27 January to 19 February 1917. After that period, having had weeks of tactics training from MvR, now equipped with new Albs, and the RFC increasing sorties to gather intel for the coming offensive, you see the pilot scores take off in March. But if it was only the Alb D.III that caused this scoring increase, why didn’t every Staffel that flew them ultimately have 350 kills? Because every Staffel didn’t have Manfred von Richthofen, Lothar von Richthofen, Kurt Wolff, Carl Allmenröder, and Emil Schafer in it at the same time! Pour le Merite winners all. Festner had 12 victories and seemed on the track toward the PLM himself until KiA 25 April. So, while we can credit both MvR and the Albatros D.III, credit also must be given to these stand-out individuals as well.

As an aside, recently I’ve been snooping around the Jasta 11 Halberstadt inventory. For a long time I’ve seen information that the unit was comprised mostly of Halberstadt D.Vs, not Halb D.IIs/IIIs. There were some of those models there, but the lists I’ve seen favored the Halb D.Vs heavily. But, during said snooping, I was comparing the serial numbers associated with Jasta 11 Halb D.Vs to manufacturing production batch serial numbers. Although Jasta 11 is credited with a complement of mostly Halb D.Vs, all the machines listed as such have serial numbers associated with Halb D.IIIs! So, something is screwy somewhere, or I'm getting my wires crossed. I’m getting to the bottom of it.


The one factor I wouldn't underestimate in the case of the German successes is Boelcke's method - which is neither about the individual men nor the aircraft they were flying, but rather a tactical doctrine and "way of thinking" that gave them a coherent approach to air combat, all the more crucial in absence of on-board radio during WWI. I think it disseminated a bit unequally through the German service with former "students" and squad-mates of Boelcke's (and their subsequent "disciples") - which is where I think MvR's role was less about him individually, and more about him being able to effectively teach and adapt his own version of Boelcke's methods to Jasta 11's fighting doctrine. This was also successful to varying degrees in other units, but the experience and ability to adjust the doctrine to an evolving war situation was distributed unequally among the service as a whole, which in WWI was simply too young to have a truly unified training and research organization.

I don't think this is even specifically about Boelcke himself as some sort of "genius who started it all" - but having an agreed-upon set of principles that was at least popular gave some German units a head start. All the better for having men who had both insight into why those principles worked, AND the authority (perhaps by virtue of having flown with Boelcke) to adjust and rework those methods to suit the evolving situation. But in short - as with almost everything in war - I think the overall success of units was down less to individual ability or technology, and more due to having an effective method and organization to support it. Things tend to work when they're based on reasonable calculations, especially when those calculations are adjusted as the situation develops. Those calculations can be used to make up for weaknesses (e.g. aircraft that are not particularly superior) with other factors - and I think in the case of the 'elite' Jastas, it was their good coordination and understanding of tactical initiative in the air, both individually and as a group, that gave them the real edge. Their enemy did eventually catch up in this respect, and had leaders no worse than Boelcke early on - but their understanding and methods did not disseminate as quickly, so it took a bit longer for them to develop the same degree of coordination and doctrinal coherence.

Last edited by CCIP; 11/06/18 09:19 PM.

If you're having trim problems, I feel bad for you son
I got ninety-nine problems, but my pitch ain't one...
#4447293 - 11/06/18 09:25 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Originally Posted by Nowi
How did the DV differ from the DII and DIII?

Still waiting for MvR and the new planes. Still have more months to post.


Top speed on the Halb. D.V is also slightly improved, about 160 kph. The D.II is somewhere around the low to mid 150s kph. The worst of the bunch, speed wise, is the D.III, around 150 kph, maybe high 140s kph. Take all of these speeds as averages however, since it all depends on how tweaked an engine is, how tight the wires are, etc., lots of in field factors in WWI. Also if I remember my readings correctly, the climb rate on the Halby. one-seaters was not that hot in relation to Nieups. and other opponents of the mid-war period. The Albies would rectify this - although the Halbs. are kings of maneuverability, and good in dives too. The FM for the Halb. in WOFFue looks about right but I don't spend much time flying them. I'd rather be in an early Alb., D.I or D.II preferably.

Happy flying,
Von S smile2

Last edited by VonS; 11/06/18 09:26 PM. Reason: Fixed some errors.
#4447335 - 11/07/18 03:23 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Desperately seeking an Albatros!!!

Just had a tough batch of missions with my Halberstadts flight. First a bunch of N17s joined by a few Strutters. Barely escaped. Next hop Pups! Ran for my life. Next, a Be with a super observer. Limped home with the engine clanging and a mild wound.

The Halberstadts are clearly obsolescent, maybe even obsolete.


Nowi
#4447339 - 11/07/18 04:19 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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One thing that prolonged the life of the Halberstadts (and by extension their pilots') by a bit longer than they might have otherwise lasted in service were the Albatros D.IIIs structural problems, which I don't think the game models (both in terms of the flight modeling, other than being slightly more prone to losing wings than the D.II - and in terms of its grounding by Jastas until the issue was sorted). The Halberstadt was nowhere near the Albatros in terms of performance, and was probably not much better than the Eindeckers - but it was structurally sound and pilot-friendly (and unlike the Albatros D.III for a period, actually considered airworthy) - and so it soldiered on.

I hate that I've never had any luck in the Halberstadt in the game because I actually enjoy flying the plane! But it's impossible to fight in at the time it's actually available.


If you're having trim problems, I feel bad for you son
I got ninety-nine problems, but my pitch ain't one...
#4447341 - 11/07/18 04:25 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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I’ve survived three months, about 35 sorties. I have 9 kills. I think I need to survive another week or so to get an Albatros. And if I get that 10th Kill, I get a week’s leave.


Nowi
#4447343 - 11/07/18 04:54 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Originally Posted by Nowi
How did the DV differ from the DII and DIII?

Are you talking about the Albatros? I only ask because I see several commenting on the Halberstadt.

Albatros types:

D.I had standard single-bay configuration, one pair of struts on each wing. It had a tall two-seater-type cabane which impeded the upward-forward vision.

D.II Identical to the D.I but with the outward-splayed cabaine, which helped that view immensely. The two types reached the front at the same time, but the D.I production quickly ceased in favor of the D.II. The D.II was still in its heyday when Idflieg banned the use of the Windhoff "ear"-type radiators in favor of the wing-top radiator.

D.III Had the wing layout altered to use the Nieuport-style smaller lower wing and "V-struts". This helped below-forward vision greatly, but it also inherited the Nieuport's problem with torsion on the single-spar lower wing. Later D.IIIs had the radiator moved to one side to protect the pilot from scalding in case of a radiator hit. At about the same the Mercedes D.IIIa engine became available, with redesigned cylinder heads giving improved speed and climb.

D.V The fuselage was resigned for simpler construction, changing the slab-sided look for a more oval shape. The top wing was lowered again for improved sighting, though nothing is ever said about the D.III's wing being higher than the D.IIs.

D.Va Was an attempt to fix the lower-wing spar failure problem.


Some people are born stupid. I've had to work hard my whole life to get this way. I'm proud of the job I've done
#4447371 - 11/07/18 11:29 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Nice discussion and input!

Nowi, keep us informed how your Halberstadt life goes.

#4447402 - 11/07/18 02:37 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Oberleutant Hans Joachim "Bones" Banco, the "Pride of Pomerania," still lives! He survived almost four months at the front flying a Halberstadt DIII. He has ten kills. It's 1 February 1917.

Jasta 11, his unit from the start, did finally receive some new Albatros D IIIs (Early) in mid- January. Unfortunately, Banco didn't rate one in the scheme of the new CO, whom Hajo refers to derisively as "Manny V." All the new machines went to Manny's favorites, even though they had zero kills. The allocation was a true travesty.

The Albatri were, however, quickly withdrawn! (So, WOFF does model that.) Wing failures, was the verdict. "Bones" Banco was heard to say to a friend that it was too bad that Manny's wing didn't fail.

Banco is also irate at the High command. When he scored eight victories he was waiting for his award of the Blue Max. This would have been a big deal for him, personally, and for all of the much maligned Pomeranians. Unfortunately, the High command retroactively upped the requirement to sixteen, robbing "Bones" of his award, He is convinced that they knew they were sending Manny to lead the squadron, and didn't want another ace with the Blue Max in the unit, hence the change in the requirements.

Nevertheless, Banko faithfully carries on in his obsolete machine. When asked about von Richthofen by a reporter, "Bones" answered: "Where there is mortality, there is hope!"

Nowi

Attached Files flightlinejan17.jpg

Nowi
#4447410 - 11/07/18 03:37 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Nice thread.

BTW the grounding etc. is modeled, as it is for the Fokker Dr1 later on.

Cheers

#4447432 - 11/07/18 06:44 PM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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and the Fokkers in late '16
Cheers,
shredward


We will remember them.
#4447516 - 11/08/18 03:35 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Hey Nowi.

I have a somewhat mirrored campaign as you have with Jata 11 except my pilot Heinrich Kashausen with Jasta 5 started Oct 1 1916. I’m currently at 2 Jan 1917 flying the Halberstadt DIII. I’m having a heck of a time dogging it out with Nieuport 17’s, Pups, and 1 1/2 Strutters. Kashausen has 9 confirmed kills from 17 claims. Recently In a hard fought battle he destroyed a Strutter just inside friendly lines, alone, in front of army troops, with his flight chasing the other Strutter Northwest. So no members of his flight were around to confirm the kill. He claimed it as destroyed with no witnesses & it was denied by the c/o so kill # 10 is that I have the deep satisfaction of knowing that I have served the Faterland!! So far I think I’ve been quite lucky to survive my combats with those N17’s and even more so vs the Pup. Just so outclassed fighting in that Halberstadt. I have come back with my Halb shot up on many occasions engaging the Esc N17’s. Like yourself I am awaiting the arrival of the Alb D2 & D3 to re-equip the sqdn, so I soldier on with the old Halb. Kashausen recently got promotrd from Leutnant to Hauptman...rather odd for flying for roughly 4 months at the front; he’s been decorated twice. I’m going to remain with Jasta 5 for the entire career-until death, hopefully more later than sooner on that count. So I feel your pain flying the obsolete Halb!

Best of luck. Good hunting.

#4447520 - 11/08/18 04:59 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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"Bones" Banco, the pride of Pomerania, somehow managed to survive 50 sorties in a Halberstadt. The last 15 were hairy. I was forced down three times. On several hops I only survived by hedgehopping. On the last occasion a pursuing Tripe flew into the ground. To top it off, on hop 48 my aged Halberstadt suffered a system failure over Entente lines. I crash landed in flames, but luckily survived, although I spent 13 days in hospital. Fortunately, those 13 days moved me closer to the arrival of the Albatrosi. You can't catch anything in a Halberstadt. If I get in an advantageous position on most of the Entente aircraft, they simply run away from me.

Jasta 11 received 4 DIII Earlys in February, but despite the fact that I outranked everyone except MvR, and with 10 kills had outscored everyone except MvR, the new advanced machines went to the HAs, 3 of whom had zero kills. I'm sorry, but that's one aspect of WOFF that I dislike.

Nevertheless, I survived. It's now 2 March 1917 and the entire Jasta is equipped with the new aircraft.

Next it's time to calculate victories and losses for the Jasta since 11 November.

I suppose I should be satisfied with surviving at the front in a Halberstadt for 4.5 months, and scoring 10 victories.

Nowi


Nowi
#4447524 - 11/08/18 06:41 AM Re: Before the Barron [Re: Nowi]  
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Originally Posted by Nowi

Jasta 11 received 4 DIII Earlys in February, but despite the fact that I outranked everyone except MvR, and with 10 kills had outscored everyone except MvR, the new advanced machines went to the HAs, 3 of whom had zero kills. I'm sorry, but that's one aspect of WOFF that I dislike.
Nowi

That can be easily overriden by Mission Editor.

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