Slow work days are great when you're trying to learn about a complex game. I wonder if my inability to reach the final objectives has something to do with supply or how I am moving my HQ units? The scenario is only 3 turns and honestly I haven't paid much attention to this. I just move my HQ units along with my forces, keeping everything that's the same color near one another. I haven't reassigned any units to another HQ. I haven't used air-resupply, or any supply functions. I haven't used the railway battalions, and don't even know if they are present in this scenario. That's something to focus on during run #3 tonight.

In run #1 I didn't move airbases forward, and had noticed I wasn't getting any action from the airfield bombing mode in subsequent turns, so in run #2 I did some of this and had better results. I've also read how some players are breaking their divisions down in to regiments to increase their options for maneuver. I have not done this.

The military concepts at play in this game seem relatively obvious if you're a seasoned wargamer, but the other factors such as command and control and especially supply are a bit less clear. Well, completely unclear right now. I have to get a grip on this if I want to move to bigger scenarios.

The command system is baffling too. I see the units grouped together with the same color. But clicking on them seems to show they are all subordinate to a mishmash of higher headquarters, even if the units are stacked together, none list the same HQ, but clearly they are all part of the same grouping. I need to work all of this out as well. I feel like I am at the stage where I can skillfully conduct a breakthrough, but I wouldn't be able to sustain it until I can get a handle on these issues. My blitzkrieg would quickly devolve in to sitskrieg with my current level of understanding. So working this stuff out is next on the agenda as I work my way to a grand campaign.

Supply and C3 are big in this. It’s really operational on that level.

You’ll get it. Just keep playing and read the manual.

There's a manual?

j/k, but I have yet to crack it. I should, I really should.

Yes, I'll get it, complex games pique my interest and hold it. I mentioned EU IV earlier and while it's not the absolute pinnacle of complexity, it was something that I really dug in to and learned all of the concepts and mechanics. Challenge is a quality all it's own. Didn't Stalin say that?

Third time's a charm as they say. The first two runs at Road to Minsk taught me a lot. If you want to score victories, at least as far as the scoring goes, you need to take objectives. It's awesome to ensnare gobs of the Soviet troops, and over the course of a longer campaign that would be preferable. But here I knew that I had to take not only Minsk, but at least one of the other secondary objectives if I wanted better than a draw. So I devised a new plan and that was to race for the objectives on the eastern edge of the map and if a pocket formed, all the better. The Soviet troops aren't nearly as mobile in the main as the Germans of course, so they'd be trapped all the same, even if I hadn't drawn a tight ring around them. These objectives are Vitebsk in the north, Mogilev in the center and Zhlobin in the south. I didn't think I could reach all three, so I decided not to go for Vibtesk in the north. The German motorized and panzer divisions are in the center and south, so it made sense to orient the thrusts in these directions. He who defends everything defends nothing, and surely the attacking corollary is true as well. If you dilute your attacks to take all, you might not get any.

I downloaded a couple of screenshot programs tonight. I'd like to post edited screens, with graphics to show routes and other info. I've posted a ton of AARs on SimHQ, with lots of pics, but I've failed to properly edit them for one's viewing pleasure. I downloaded something called Snap View but it didn't actually capture the game, just the task bar,. Too bad because the editing tools were good. So I got FRAPS. There is no in-game screenshot key, which is baffling in this day and age. So FRAPS it is, but unless you pay for it you can only save images in freakin' massive formats, so I have to then convert it to JPEG so it fits under the one meg limit on this board. Too much work. Bah.

This shot shows the start state, with victory flags turned on so you see where the Germans need to capture. It's hard to see because the unit counters block it somewhat, but the western most three flags are all-red and are the Russian objectives and the four eastern flags are blue and red and are the German objectives.



On run #3 in this scenario I was much more deliberate. taking care to evaluate each division's possible moves. I used them more independently, rather than just move them around as stacks. This is important especially if the start stacks are mixed infantry and mobile units. I did the air phase and then broke through in the south, at Brest Litovsk. Using only infantry I broke the front open, and took Brest Litovsk. In my earlier runs I moved the panzer and motorized units after the line was breached, but before the city fell. With the enemy zone of control in effect, this caused these units to move through a couple of extra hexes. I wanted to squeeze every bit of speed I could out of them, so no armor or motorized units were moved, or used in attack until the front was breached and Brest Litovsk taken. With the city taken, the southern thrust could move straight down the rail line through the city and saved valuable movement points.

After the breach, I used the First Cavalry Division to open the corridor. This shot shows this situation. At this point only First Cavalry and the light blue infantry units have been used. The path is clear to send the panzers on, and they have all of their movement points.



First Cavalry is the lone unit deep behind the lines and has brushed aside all resistance to that point where they ran out of movement points (MPs). But by clearing the route it allows other following units to move further along the line, and after this shot was taken I used Das Reich to smash through the resistance just northeast of First Cav. Das Reich is the unit at the lower left that is colored black. One by one I used all the motorized units in the south to keep clearing the way, and when these were all used, finally the armored divisions were unleashed and were able to roll to the maximum of their movement range.

In the previous two attempts I used my pincers to orient on Minsk. It worked well and captured the main prize easily enough. This time though I bypassed Minsk to the south and headed straight for Zhlobin. The effort to save the movement points paid off as the southern thrust was abreast Minsk at the end of the first turn and I knew, barring running out of fuel, I would take that city in the two remaining turns. The northern breakthrough was aimed at Minsk as a precaution, but also reached it in one turn. So I believed I could now get Mogilev too. Follow up units could take Minsk. And that's what happened. The 10th Panzer Division took Zhlobin at the end of turn two, and 12th Panzer took Mogilev on turn three. Guderian himself strode in to the abandoned Minsk.

This plan destroyed fewer of the enemy as I was less concerned with them and more so with reaching the objectives. The enemy lost 280,000 troops, 4000 guns, 2000 tanks and yet again 1300 planes (see final screenshot for ground figures). German air losses doubled as I made more use of the asset, but that's still only 50 planes. With all but one objective in German hands we scored a Major Victory.



Learned a little more in this run, and worked out the rail repair which will help me move on to bigger scenarios. One interesting thing I saw was that the factory at Marienburg was shown as producing a Fw-190G, in June of '41. 'Sup with that?

I talked before about the stats this game tracks. Here is the final tally of units destroyed. This is just the tip of the iceberg, but notice the detail. On the left are the Soviet losses. Good stuff.

I use "Snagit 13" or windows "snipping tool" for screen capture.

I was helping someone over at Matrix yesterday with this matter...
Matrix Screen Capture Help

Red

Thanks for the suggestion, I read that thread. Was hoping for a free solution of course, not that I couldn't splash some cash. Check out this image




I want to be able to put arrows like this on the map. What software should I look at? Actually I 'd like a different form, like a wider, "hollow" arrow that I can send other arrows off of to show a situation like pincers moving deep, but also showing where other units were dropped off along the way, or took a divergent route if that makes sense. I want them to be able to be able to be manipulated so I can vary how much curve they have in them, or change color, width and length for different situations.

So I want a capture utility that grabs numerous jpegs and lets me edit them to show movement and other info. Is Snagit good for this?

This might be what your looking for...

Battle Chronicler

In French, sorry but so you get an Idea..



Red

Mare kee buckets moni me.

That's French too you see.

That has potential I suppose. Or maybe I'll just need to paint the picture with my flowery prose.

I think I will try to move up in the world tonight and try one of the other "Road to" scenarios. Still clueless about HQ organization, or even identifying my units. I need to find a mod that replaces the Roman numeral designations with numbers. I hope that exists. 47th Panzer Corps instead of XXXXVII Panzer Corps. I have a head for numbers and Roman numerals are not included in this gift

I'm happy I managed my first victory. I was sure that while I reported my failures (if draws are failures), that Cheyenne would pop up saying he claimed a total victory first try lol.

Sorry DBond, today and whole weekend is a moving day for me and my family:) Zero gaming, maybe next week i'll have some spare time. So in the mean time please continue. I'll definitely read your reports, hopefully learning a thing or two

I hope the move goes smoothly, not my favorite thing to do. Lots of work. Good luck with it.

I had planned to start a new scenario, Road to Smolensk, which is essentially the same as Road to Minsk, but you command a wider front and have deeper objectives, including the prize of Moscow. 10 turns instead of 3. In comparison to RtM it will require more dedication to your supply chain, and also features much heavier unit withdrawal, This is strategic withdrawal, not tactical. Portions of your forces will be siphoned off to other fronts and it's imperative you know the schedule. Some units will be removed after the first turn some after the second, the third, the fifth and so on. Plans have to account for this. I keep peeling back the onion and find more and more depth and complexity. I said earlier most of the complexity is beneath the hood, and while that's true, there's plenty above ground too.

So the upshot is that I don't feel quite ready to move on to Smolensk and decided to run Road to Minsk for a fourth time. In a way I've decided to approach the game like I would when learning Falcon 4's cockpit. Break it down in to modules. Like learning the left panel before moving on. Know every switch, what it does, what it's modes are. Last night I concentrated on two things, administration and the air component.

Administrations is about the leadership, which units are assigned to which headquarters and how they are positioned so that all units attached benefit from the link. Units out of command range will suffer penalties such as lower supply and combat effectiveness. For the first three runs I made no changes here. Diving in deeper though I spotted some things I thought could improve my efficiency, and perhaps lead to greater success in larger scenarios. In order to maximize your effectiveness in the big scenarios, you'll need every edge you can get.

Ignoring the Soviet side of things for now, the player has a full roster of German leaders. Generals assigned to command the various headquarters, as well as ones currently with no command, your reserve if you will. Each one is rated in a variety of factors. Morale, politics, how well they handle supplies, combat effectiveness with mechanized and infantry units, initiative and more. Who is in command will have a big influence on how the campaign plays out. Many are familiar names (Manstein, Kleist, Guderian for example) and others will be less well known. Assigning your best leaders, and matching their strengths to the units they are assigned to is a skill that will pay off. It's a big roster, but I think imperative that I get to know them all to efficiently staff my HQs. It may not make much difference in the three-turn scenario I am playing, but over the course of the grand campaign I would imagine it will have a huge cumulative effect.

The scope of the alterations that can be made here is limited by a mechanic called administrative points. The player receives a predetermined constant number each turn, usually 15 or 20 it seems based on the scenario you're playing. Relieving a leader has an admin cost, say 5 for a middling General. Assigning the replacement costs another point. Dismissing a General of more renown or importance (or maybe rank or how high in the chain his headquarters is) has a higher cost. So you cannot afford to make sweeping changes and have to be more selective before you run out of points. Administrative points have other uses as well, so you must be prudent. Becoming familiar with all of your leaders and making best use of them within administrative constraints will be the sort of thing that separates advanced players.

For my first stab (clever pun) at this I had a look through the roster, comparing various strengths and weaknesses, One thing that jumped out at me was that Walter Model was unassigned to any command. His ratings are exceptional as you might expect, a master of supply and combat, especially infantry. In a longer campaign I would likely have chosen to assign him to command an infantry formation. But in Road to Minsk I decided to assign him to a Panzer Corps. In this scenario my panzers are not intended to fight much, but to penetrate deep behind the lines, so I reasoned they would benefit from his supply and movement mastery. LVII Panzer Corps was commanded by a general named Adolph Kuntzen, who was fairly average, and had middling ratings for admin (supply) and initiative (movement). He faced the axe and Model replaced him. This should have a big effect on the capabilities of LVII Panzer Corps. And since this unit will form the core of my northern thrust this move should pay off.

After giving Model a new job, I had a look at my Luftwaffe. This scenario features two Fliegerkorps of Luftlotte 2. One in the north and one in the south. I've learned that supply is heavily linked to distance from the HQ, By default, the airfields and HQ are not ideally placed, leaving some airfields outside of the 5-hex limit. So I spent some time repositioning to ensure all squadrons were within range. It's important to note that airfields must be in clear or wooded hexes. The HQ can be in a city, but not the airdromes.

In addition I learned that the max range of my Stukas is 11 hexes. So I made sure to bring these forward so that they were in position to hit the front line airfields and to help support my breakthrough and the troops in and around the pocket I expected to form in the central front.

In my first three runs I simply let the AI handle the air war. You just choose the mode (airbase bombing, city attacks,recon, ground support) and then click AI. The program decides on the composition of the raids and carries them out automatically. It was highly effective. The German player gets large bonuses on turn one only, to account for the effects of a surprise attack and you want to take advantage. So I wondered if I could make better use of the assets. I made alterations to the Air Doctrine which guides the air war. And instead of having the AI run the missions, I did them manually. This allows you to choose which squadrons take part. You can select whether you will use Do-17s, He-111s, Stukas and which fighter units, if any, will escort them. You can even assign whether your fighter bombers will be fighter or bombers (in this scenario that's the Me-110s) Very cool level of involvement. Units can fly again and again, they are limited by miles flown, but as each turn equals one week, this means many missions can be flown.

In the event I was able to repeatedly target the enemy airfields, starting with their fighter bases to limit their follow-on ability to intercept my raids. By the time I had run out of targets, the Red air force was smashed. When I let the AI run it we destroyed 800 aircraft on the first turn. Done manually it was 1000. So a 25% increase in effectiveness running the air war manually this time. I only used about an average of 30% of available air miles, so these units are still free to assist on the ground or attacking cities if I should need it.

Oh yeah, almost forgot.... administratively I made a couple of other changes (and one reason you want to be prudent with spending admin points). In the south I noticed that XXXVII Panzer Corps had an infantry division attached, the 167th. I reattached it to an infantry corps, to free the supply burden and so that the panzers weren't held back by the slower infantry unit. XXIV Panzer Corps has the 267th Infantry Division attached and it was also reassigned to the infantry corps. These two moves lighten the load for the two panzer corps who will form the core of my southern thrust and hopefully allow them to drive deeper in to the Russian rear.

So with that I've added a couple of new wrinkles to my operational planning and command. getting a handle on administration to more effectively organize my forces, and to be more hands-on with my air assets, hopefully increasing their effectiveness. Once the attack is launched we will see if it pays off.

Great reports DBond. It's definitely better than reading the manual;) I knew your posts would serve me better than learning the game on my own.

Thanks, I hope it is useful in some way. If nothing else I am getting quite a lot of experience at the opening moves for Army Group Center There is a lot to consider and that appeals to me. I've only scratched the surface thus far. There is much more I need to learn, especially in regards to supply/logistics, HQ build-ups and making the best use of the massive amount of information we have on offer. It's easy to smash through an unprepared enemy, but sustaining that momentum is the real challenge.

One other administrative note for the start turn of Road to Minsk. The XXXVII Panzer Corps had one additional infantry division attached and it was also re-assigned to the infantry corps, I think the 255th. All three infantry divisions were reassigned to XII Corps.

I ran the scenario twice more. After the post above, run number 4 went well, although my plan this time was too ambitious. I wanted to score a total victory and capture all VLs including Vibtesk. So instead of using Hoth's 3rd Panzergruppe to help seal the pocket, I sent one panzer corps north in an effort to reach Vibtesk by the end of turn three, and the other to bypass Minsk to the north in a dash for Mogilev and then pivot 90 degrees to the north to help seal off Vibtesk. Two problems arose. One is that I found I couldn't reach Vibtesk in 3 turns along the north edge of the map due to terrain, supply problems and river crossings. Came close, but not quite.

The second problem that arose is I didn't leave myself enough strength to properly seal the pocket. It was closed, but far too tenuously and the Russian was able to break out a bit to the northeast. We still captured Minsk, Mogilev and Zhlobin, but we failed to take as many troops because of the broken pocket, which not only allows some to escape encirclement, but also allows the ones still inside to trace a supply route and less likely to surrender, making clearing the pocket more difficult. In this shot you see the result of my overly ambitious plan. The Vibtesk panzer group is the light green unit along the north edge. They essentially were sent on a dead end. Now, if the scenarios lasted more turns, this position could be favorable, but in this scenario it just didn't work out. And you can see how fragile the weak ass ring I formed is. End of turn 1.






So I did it again, run #5. This time I aimed to put it all together. Form a lock tight kessel and capture all VLs aside from Vibtesk. The main goal was to destroy as much of the Red Army as possible. It went well, a large pocket was drawn and closed off well.



Minsk was bypassed on turn two and Zhlobin and Mogilev were easily taken by the end. Model's panzer corps was approaching Vibtesk and possibly could have taken it next turn. I like the look of the corridor we've opened here, and the leading panzers aren't that far from Smolensk at this point. In the grand campaign other armies will be making their own penetrations to the north and south of this map, so I think the troops we brushed aside toward Vibtesk and those that chose to flee in to the Pripyat marshes might be trapped by these movements. I need to play the other "Road to" scenarios to give me some experience in each of the major sectors of the front. (Leningrad, Kiev) Once I feel I have a good plan for each, I can then stitch them together to get a good start in the grand campaign. Or that's the plan anyway. This is the end of turn three, the end of the scenario. I figured out how to get the lighter green/red so the territory won stands out a little better than in the previous screenshot.




Here are the final ground tallies, with some of the breakdown of my losses on the left. This is easily the most troops I've taken. The best from any of the first four runs was 320,000. Here it's nearly 380,000, including 294,000 taken prisoner, as every unit caught in the pocket was destroyed.






I wonder if anyone can tell me why the Russian received points for Mogilev and Zhlobin? Do they get points per turn for still possessing it or something?

Ahh, I'm guessing ET is end turn and EG is end game, so they are indeed getting points per turn. They get it for four turns though, even though I captured them on turn three, but if that's how it works, that's how it works.

I did a fair bit of recon on the Kiev and Leningrad scenarios. But ya know what, I think I am going to dive straight in to the grand campaign. I know enough now to be dangerous, but probably not enough to prevail. We shall see. I keep thinking about the GC so might as well give it a go and see if my landsers can push through to the end and claim victory. I will make mistakes, but I can't see screwing it up as much as it was in real life. I plan to play the CG with the 260 point requirement instead of the normal 290.

I have all of these grand plans in mind, so am eager to see if I can pull it off. And besides, the Germans didn't get a chance to practice these operations over and over before June 22nd anyway

All I've done is some reorganization,assigned new leaders, and the airfield strikes. I've destroyed more than 1000 more planes on the opening morning than the Luftwaffe did, so that's a fine start indeed. I might start over anyway to try a few things out before kicking this thing off for real.

My goals for the first 10 weeks will be to capture Leningrad, Smolensk, Kiev and Odessa, and form a bridgehead across the Dnepr at Cherkassy. If I can swing that I would be in good shape and can push for Moscow before the weather turns bad,

Second phase would include Moscow, Kharkov and Kursk and hopefully push down near the Crimea, if not enter it outright before the winter sets in. Too ambitious?

Getting the Finns committed is paramount, so Leningrad seems the key.

This sh!t is epic!

D@mn... i created a monster

We finished moving so soon i should be able to start my own playtesting. But like i said, please continue your reports. They are a big help and a great read!

Yes, it's all your fault, but after a hesitant start, I've really been sucked in. I find myself absorbed by operational planning, thinking about all the time. This morning I woke up and the very first thought I had was wondering how long it would take to reach the Donets

Instead of playing tonight I spent quite a bit of time reading the manual, especially in regards to leadership, chain of command, supply, ground combat, weather and movement. It's amazing how much goes in to each calculation. It's very impressive. I tend to laud any game with this sort of complexity and WitE is right near the top of the list. Making it even more so is the speed with which these calculations occur. Not only is this game probably the fastest loading game I have, the turns themselves take far less time than I would think is necessary for everything that is going on, A programming masterpiece, to my eye anyway. (disclaimer to carry over for the rest of the thread: I understand this game has been out for 8 years, and many players have mastered it long ago, and my comments might appear as if I have discovered it at the exclusion of those who came before. But it's new to me)

One of the things I focused on as I continue my crash course in operational command is again leadership. I feel like this will prove to be one of the most crucial aspects determining my fate on the eastern front. For example, there are optimum HQ levels for each rank of general. I'm not sure exactly how much effect it has, but whenever you see the word optimal, you gotta pay attention. I then spent several hours combing through my leadership, comparing generals, learning their strengths and trying to determine where they would best be placed. Of course I am limited by the administration points (I get 50 per turn in the grand campaign) so it cannot all be done at once. The Germans have a number of highly capable generals with no command, and many poor quality generals in important positions.

As the most obvious example, OKH is commanded by Halder of course. But he doesn't have the best attributes, most notably to me in morale. OKH must be run by a Field Marshall, of which there are few at the start, though generals can earn promotions and later I might have more. I wish I knew more, but I'm tempted to replace him with von Kluge, who is rated much higher overall, but nominally worse in administration. I learned that dismissal cost is mostly determined by the political rating and not the other factors I speculated on earlier. If I understand it correctly, installing a better OKH would have an effect on every Axis unit on the map (or perhaps only German), and the right move here could make my entire force more capable in all aspects. Of course von Kluge is in command of 4th Army, so these sorts of moves have a knock on effect, and it all costs points. Luckily there are good generals waiting for a command, such as Balck, Model and Weiss (and more), all of whom will start the invasion with active commands if I can afford the points.

This leadership aspect fascinates me, and I clearly see the importance of maximizing the potential by placing the most effective men in charge, at the right levels, and with the right sort of command to suit their strengths. I won't kick this thing off until I am satisfied I've got it right, at least insofar as my limited knowledge and administration points allow.