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#4445859 - 10/28/18 02:41 PM Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East  
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With my recent disappointing return to Combat Mission, which is outlined in other threads, I've been seeking a new wargame. I spent hours last night reading reviews, and best-games lists. Most of these lists are entirely useless, especially when they list games like Nier Automata or CoD, and have TW Rome 1 as the number one game of all time. Most gaming sites apparently have no clue what a war game is? A few of the actual wargaming sites have some good lists. But what to get. I considered games like Steel Division, and Company of Heroes, Men of War. The Graviteam games. Close Combat games past CC5 and lots more. Which one to get? None seem to be exactly what I am looking for.

The other day I was thinking about this and I thought to myself how I play all of these types of games, but never the grand strategy games like Gary Grigsby games. That's what came to mind. But then I thought, why not? What has kept me away from these sorts of game all these years? Too daunting? Not exciting enough? Would I find I lack the skills or brainpower necessary to succeed? Would I grow bored, or find it too obtuse or difficult? Well, I really don't know. Europa Universalis is among my all time favorite and most played games. 3000 hours in it over the years. But perhaps Gary Grigsby games are another level entirely.

So the question is, does anyone here play this or War in the East/Pacific? I can't recall any threads here about these games. So not sure if I will get any replies. Yet, it intrigues me. The sheer scale, the depth, the over-the-top grogness of it all seems like it would be something I could really dig in to. Campaigns can take weeks or months of real-time everyday play, if I understand it all (and I've read many reviews).

I suppose I'm looking for opinions from the gamer's eye view. The experience folks have when digging in to it for the first time, and how it all went from there. This game (WitW) isn't cheap, it's 80 dollars, so I want to be sure I'd like it first. But that may not be possible to know without buying it first. Just throwing this out there and see if anyone has any thoughts.

War in the West on Steam


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Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4445896 - 10/28/18 06:45 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  

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Funny again smile

I bought GG War in the East some time ago. Really wanted to learn it and play it but it totaly overwhelmed me. It is huge in scale and info you have to process before making any move. I don't even know where to start trying to describe it:) Someday i'll sit again, bite my teeth and learn it!

But if you'd like to try it, i could actually lend it to you. I have a Matrix version and Steam one since Matrix also provides steam keys for their games (i really like this company). So let me know. The installer is pretty small (780MB or so) so there shouldn't be a problem uploading it somewhere.

Last edited by USSCheyenne; 10/28/18 06:46 PM.
#4445901 - 10/28/18 08:17 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks very much, that's very generous. I'll PM you about it.

As to your experience, I fear the same. One thing I read is that you can have the AI play both sides and spectate. I wonder if it could be useful, particularly to see the outcomes of different decisions? The drawback of course is you'd have no idea what considerations might have led to that decision. So perhaps of quite limited use, more entertainment than teaching tool. I don't know, it may be too ambitious for me. Or it may be perfect, who knows smile


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#4446038 - 10/29/18 05:29 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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War in the Pacific (matrix) is great. To this day, my favorite war game of all time.

Also War in the East. I have War in the West and I assume it’s as good but I haven’t played it much.


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4446047 - 10/29/18 06:03 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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Well I should be playing War in the East in short order smile

How long I play is a matter of conjecture at the mo.

Airdrop, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the game, why you like it, what you don't like. As stated, I'm interested in how someone felt diving in for the first time and how it went from there. No obligation of course.


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#4446063 - 10/29/18 07:04 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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DBond, as far as War in the East, I cannot possibly do a better job of explaining why I like it than this thread...it's just fantastic....

http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3183226/wite-grand-campaign-victory#Post3183226


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4446068 - 10/29/18 07:25 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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You are correct sir, great link thanks very much. great AAR PB!

I want to conduct encirclement battles!

I didn't even consider needing to convert the rail gauge. What am I in for?! biggrin


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#4446071 - 10/29/18 07:41 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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Another game to explore is "The Operational Art of War IV".

it has everything from tiny scenarios to Barbarossa. And it covers periods from WWI (and before) to hypothetical future events and other What-Ifs.

#4446088 - 10/29/18 08:54 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks for the recommendation. I am familiar with it, but have not played it as with the GG games I have avoided grand strategy WW2 games, but....

I have read PB's AAR up to spring of '42, and I am very much looking forward to it. I think this will be right in my wheelhouse. I have a million questions -- do I have to prepare fallback positions? How? How do I combat partisans? Is there a naval aspect? ANd on and on. With winter approaching (in real life where I can make the best of it as opposed to what I will think in the game...) I was hoping to find a game that I could really dig in to. This looks to be it.

Thanks Airdrop for the link, and PB for taking the huge amount of time these things require. It really is the best look I've had in to what is required, and from what I see, right up my alley.

If there is one thing I learned, it is to see the investiture of Leningrad through to the end and take that city! Those Finns look redoubtable and I can always use to free up a couple Corps biggrin


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4446094 - 10/29/18 09:51 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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If you go to the Steam page for TOAW IV you can download the manual from it, and have a peek through it.

(Steam is on my other PC so can't link the manual in here).

#4446100 - 10/29/18 10:19 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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Hi again DBond smile2

Iam a regular at Matrix Games, and have most of there games, and a fan of wargaming in general. Here´s my YT channel...
Hex2RedOneAlpha

I have WitW among other grand strategy games from Matrix. My biggest grip with GS games is that in the end your moving counters like crazy! Depending on the scale means alot of units to move, so it´s something to take into account. It can even get boring at some times. John Tiller´s Campaign series has that, it works alot on unit fatigue, and you spend alot of time wearing out units, and a bunch of them so you can punch a gap in the lines to get through. Not that it´s a bad thing but, I rather have smaller scales.

I´ll list my fav Matrix games...

"Decision Campaigns: Barbarrosa", a great game by the way and not as "hardcore" as WitW or WitP. In this case you have the whole East Front of troops to move which is a handfull but there´s alot more to it as there is a RPG element to it too...
All the games form VR Desings are great. I also have DC Warsaw to Paris and Advance Tactics Gold.

VR Desings Home site



"Tigers on the Hunt", well if you are a fan of ASL (Advance Squad Leader), then this is for you. It basically uses the ASLSK rules (Advance Squad Leader Starter Kit). It´s made by a one man team (been in the making for 7-8 years) and very passionate about it. The GUI is a bit clunky but you get use to it. I love playing TotH.

A good friend (IDJester) has alot of videso on TotH...



As a side note: Tabletop Simulator (Steam) has a module from Steam workshop that lets you play ASLSK #1-3 with a friend who also owns Tabletop SImulator. Other great wargame modules from GMT and Avalon HIll can be found on the Workshop.

Another all time fav is "Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm . If I had to pick just one, this is it. Love the WEGO system...



My suggestion is to wait till the10-11th. of December, that´s usually when the Matrix Games holiday sales start and you can find games like WitW with 50% or more off. The only games that don´t get a big discount are recent releases. Also, as stated above, its best to buy from Matrix as you also get a Steam key and Matrix is DRM free.

Mind you, this is just my personal opinion.

Red







Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, Sapphire Pulse AMD RX 6700 12GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB, 447GB SSD´s, Samsung G6 32" , Logitech G13, G502, Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Simagic Alpha Mini, and Formula Extreme FX, DC Simracing DC1 pedals, GT Omega ART cockpit, TrackIR 5.0.
AUDIO: Aiyima A07 Max, Topping E50 and L50 stack, Polk Audio Signature Elite ES20 , and Shennheiser HD 560s. DAP: Hiby R3, Hiby Seeds, and iBasso IT01, Sharp MD-MT 80H Minidisc.
#4446158 - 10/30/18 11:17 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: RedOneAlpha]  

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Originally Posted by Red2112


My suggestion is to wait till the10-11th. of December, that´s usually when the Matrix Games holiday sales start...
Red



Exactly how i buy games on Matrix. Every year during holiday sales i get 1-2 titles from them. 2-3 yeas ago they stared sending me coupons (i think for being a member of Matrix long enough) with additional discounts which i can apply on top of regular sales so sometimes it's a steal. I bought War in the East for like 20$. I really like Matrix/Slitherine.

This year i think i'll go for Operational Art of War IV and maybe Silent Service DLC for Command Modern Air/Naval Operations.

#4446161 - 10/30/18 11:43 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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So much wargaming goodness, thanks for the links and recommendations fellas. Honestly, I would have been content to keep playing Combat Missions (and actually am playing through a campaign now), but the lack of what I perceive as quality appropriate content has driven me to seek alternatives. As a result, I now have War in the East installed, and many thanks to Cheyenne for his assistance in the matter. I have plenty of reading to do, and campaigns to lose as I learn the finer points. Err, I mean the basics. If my foray in to these grand strategy or operational wargames proves a success, then I will have opened up a whole new genre and the entire backlog of games, all of which will be new to me. I still feel a tactical wargamer at heart, but this could change in the next few weeks smile


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4446225 - 10/30/18 08:06 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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I've been using the term grand strategy, but it's not correct is it? Operational wargame is correct? Well, regardless of what I call it, I plan to try and punch through to Minsk this evening. There is a quick 3-turn mission to play and see if I can break through and take the city as sort of a training/tutorial mission. I think I understand the military concepts needed, but not the mechanical. That will come. I plan a pincer movement from Brest-Litovsk in the south and from near Grodno in the north, hopefully encircling the defenders between these points and racing my mechanized units towards the objective. I've read enough now to at least not be completely lost so we will see how it goes.

My thinking is to try and punch holes with infantry, then the panzers get sent through the gap, and then infantry is brought forward to seal the shoulders and complete the encirclement. I'm thinking I should identify rail lines to serve as axes for the pincers. This is needed to maintain supply? Or will the fact it's wrong gauge mean it's not helpful? Or is it a minor factor in such a short scenario? It should all become obvious at some point once I've played a while, but at this point I have little to no idea how to prosecute the air war, or the supply mechanic or how and when to re-attach units. But I suppose that's half the fun with a game like this. So no need to offer advice, though it's always interesting to hear how others might approach it. The scenario is Road to Minsk.

Once I get home from the boy's soccer practice I plan to sit down with a nice drink and launch my own little blitzkrieg. Should be interesting!


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#4446329 - 10/31/18 01:28 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West [Re: DBond]  
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Lesson learned, victory locations are worth far more than enemy formations destroyed. That, or it's expected the German will destroy masses of Russian troops on June 22nd. With only a couple hours of reading under my belt, I dove in to the Road to Minsk scenario on normal. I led it off with an air recon by the AI. I then launched the attack from the locations mentioned above by smashing a hole in the north with infantry divisions. Armor and mechanized divisions were then sent dashing through the gap and toward Minsk.

Next I ran airfield bombing missions, which were as effective as they had been in the event. When this was done I broke through in the south and again mobile formations were sent through the gap. The northern pincer made more progress and was able to reach a position just northwest of the the city of Minsk. The southern arm reached about the halfway point.. I attacked the Russians all along the front and pushed them back, while bringing still more infantry divisions through the holes to try and encircle the mass of enemy units in the central sector of the front. This was partially done as these units have fewer movement points of course. Moves were made to secure the locations shown as Russian VLs to deny them to the enemy, but really they had no chance at this point of launching any attacks, as they were withdrawing everywhere. Still, I secured these towns to deny them the points.

On turn two Minsk was captured by two Corps, and the pocket at the front was closed and the units inside destroyed. I felt afterwards that I should have aimed for a bit of a deeper encirclement, as some units were able to escape before the ring was closed off. Even so, the units that escaped were then cut off in turn by the force that had been sent on to Minsk. In all we trapped about 150,000 Russian troops inside the pocket. My first encirclement battle was a smashing success! I then brought these units forward as far as possible to shorten the lines and re-establish lines of communication with the Minsk force. Everywhere, Ivan was on the run. I consolidated around Minsk and didn't go for the remaining three German VLs as I didn't feel I had the strength in mobility to reach them in force in the one remaining turn. Minsk was the prize and in German hands.

German losses on the ground amounted to 19,000 to all sources. The Russian lost 270,000 men. German aircraft losses were 11 planes, the Russians lost 1000, over 800 on the ground. Feeling good about my success the scenario ended as a draw. Each of the three un-taken VLs were worth more points than all of the enemy formations I destroyed combined. I suppose I need to look at it as an operational game, not a tactical one. Objectives are the thing, and destroying the enemy is simply a means to that end. Another lesson learned.

A few thoughts after my first scenario....

Two things about me, I love maps and I love statistics. On the first point, I am the only person left in the world I think that doesn't use a GPS and instead plans things with maps, old school, as I am told. The map in this game is quite good, but I only had place names for major cities like Warsaw, Minsk , Vilnius and Vitebsk. Is that scenario-specific? Is there a map mod that adds place names for most towns? Are there any essential mods I should be looking for?

On the second point, this game throws statistics at you in spades. I loved following the mounting numbers, checking them constantly, seeing what type of units or vehicle or aircraft were being taken out. The depth here is astounding, and I ate it up. Like in aircraft, tracking the loss types, which were mostly biplanes like I-153 and near-obsolete single engine fighters like I-16s. I noticed at one point we had only destroyed 8 Sturmoviks, and I feared a group of them sat on an undiscovered airfield somewhere waiting to deal me some pain, but not to be. Perhaps the IL-2 hadn't reached the front districts in strength by June of '41? But this sort of minute detail is wonderful in a game of such scale.

Another thought I had was the game is far easier to manage then I had envisioned. It is vastly complex, but this complexity is mostly under the hood, and any fears I had of it being unmanageable were unfounded. Of course I was playing a rather simple scenario with a huge advantage over the enemy. The grand campaign will prove to be something else entirely I believe. And being my very first attempt means I can only get better at it. It frees you to think in strategic terms, and not get bogged down in minutiae. The GC will add much more for me to consider, such as railway repair and conversion, redeploying air units, entraining new formations to be shipped to the front, upgrading divisions and that sort of thing. I had to deal with none of these things in Road to Minsk.

I noticed I had no artillery units. I guess I expected to have artillery backing the front line and would open with a massive barrage, but there were none. Is this a thing?

It was a good start, and a game that I think will suit me. I might shudder a bit when thinking of the time and attention it will require to manage 300 divisions. But perhaps that's part of the appeal.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4446417 - 10/31/18 11:06 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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After work I had a bash about on the interweb and decided on the map mod called A Rainy Day in Russia. The original map is much more, I don't know, pale I guess. And it lacked the place names of all but the largest urban areas, at least as far as I could tell in my brief playtime. This mod includes the names of many the of the smaller towns, which I was very interested in. I read a lot, and have many books on the war in Russia. And while I could always relate to what I was reading on a rough scale (north of Sevastopol for example), this mod will give me that finer level of understanding about exactly where these movements and battles took place. Wargames and sims have always done this for me, they have filled in many of the gaps I find when reading books on the matter. As a popular reference, the TV show MASH always talked about places like Panmunjom and Uijeongbu, but it was only because of Falcon 4 that I actually knew exactly where this was, as opposed to just knowing it's "near Seoul". Anyway, this mod seems just what I was looking for and has a higher contrast, easier on the eyes, and rails really stand out. I saw some people have issues with the counters not standing out or displaying correctly and I'll have to play a while to see if I have any trouble. Could always install different counters if necessary. And honestly I see zero difference with the counters from when I played anyway, but I have yet to stare at it for hundreds of hours. Maybe nothing changed when I installed it.

[Linked Image]

That shot is the start state for the Road to Minsk scenario I played, but on a new map, You can already see the pocket just begging to be formed smile




Attached Files ARDIRMAP.jpg
Last edited by DBond; 10/31/18 11:27 PM.

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#4446448 - 11/01/18 07:47 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  

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It seems you like it:) I'am glad! You got me inspired so i think i'll dive into it once again.

#4446467 - 11/01/18 01:03 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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I do like it. It brings out my inner Kleist smile

After installing the map mod I decided to have another go at Road to Minsk, to try out a different sort of plan and see if I could do better than a draw. This plan worked better, but still resulted in a draw. I broke through the lines at the same spots as before, but aimed my pincers farther east to tie a bigger noose around the Russian. A double double-envelopment was the goal. The ring was closed another 100 miles to the east, just to the west of Minsk. The panzercorps that were the arms of the pincers then met east of Minsk to complete the double move and forcing the Minsk defenders to abandon the city.

In a longer game this might have paid dividends as this time we destroyed 320,000 troops (+50,000) and 1300 planes (+300) , but neither of these things helped me reach the three VLs along the eastern edge of the map. Taking just one of these in addition to Minsk would be enough to turn that draw in to at least a minor victory I think. They seemingly lie just a bit too far beyond the range I can move my panzers in 3 turns. I was at the gates of both Mogilev and Zhlobin, but didn't have the movement left to enter these locations before the scenario ended. Need to work on how to get maximum 'speed' out of my panzercorps.. I 'waste' MPs by taking a non-optimum route perhaps, or by moving through an enemy unit's ZoC, or by needing to brush a unit aside instead of bypassing it. I just need a few more movement points to win this one. Ah, the finer points of operational command smile


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#4446474 - 11/01/18 02:47 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Isn’t it a great feeling to surround a huge mass of enemy divisions?


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4446480 - 11/01/18 03:16 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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It is indeed Airdrop! I was excited to see how I did with big encirclements and to have the first one come off splendidly was very satisfying. Of course in this scenario the Russian is woefully unprepared and vulnerable, so it's not like it takes a genius, but still, it was pretty awesome when these units saw they had no hope and began surrendering enmasse.

That screen I put up of the map shows just how vulnerable they are. They're just asking for it.

Anyway, I have a new plan to try this evening and see if I can pull off a victory in this one. Then it's time to move to scenarios a bit bigger. If I can get a handle on the ones lasting around 10 turns, then perhaps I'll be ready to start a grand campaign. I still have lots to learn before then though.

Originally Posted by USSCheyenne
You got me inspired so i think i'll dive into it once again.


Haha, excellent, you helped me get in to it, and now that has led you to get in to it. Nice. I hope you try the Road to Minsk so we can compare notes.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
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