With my recent disappointing return to Combat Mission, which is outlined in other threads, I've been seeking a new wargame. I spent hours last night reading reviews, and best-games lists. Most of these lists are entirely useless, especially when they list games like Nier Automata or CoD, and have TW Rome 1 as the number one game of all time. Most gaming sites apparently have no clue what a war game is? A few of the actual wargaming sites have some good lists. But what to get. I considered games like Steel Division, and Company of Heroes, Men of War. The Graviteam games. Close Combat games past CC5 and lots more. Which one to get? None seem to be exactly what I am looking for.

The other day I was thinking about this and I thought to myself how I play all of these types of games, but never the grand strategy games like Gary Grigsby games. That's what came to mind. But then I thought, why not? What has kept me away from these sorts of game all these years? Too daunting? Not exciting enough? Would I find I lack the skills or brainpower necessary to succeed? Would I grow bored, or find it too obtuse or difficult? Well, I really don't know. Europa Universalis is among my all time favorite and most played games. 3000 hours in it over the years. But perhaps Gary Grigsby games are another level entirely.

So the question is, does anyone here play this or War in the East/Pacific? I can't recall any threads here about these games. So not sure if I will get any replies. Yet, it intrigues me. The sheer scale, the depth, the over-the-top grogness of it all seems like it would be something I could really dig in to. Campaigns can take weeks or months of real-time everyday play, if I understand it all (and I've read many reviews).

I suppose I'm looking for opinions from the gamer's eye view. The experience folks have when digging in to it for the first time, and how it all went from there. This game (WitW) isn't cheap, it's 80 dollars, so I want to be sure I'd like it first. But that may not be possible to know without buying it first. Just throwing this out there and see if anyone has any thoughts.

War in the West on Steam

Funny again

I bought GG War in the East some time ago. Really wanted to learn it and play it but it totaly overwhelmed me. It is huge in scale and info you have to process before making any move. I don't even know where to start trying to describe it:) Someday i'll sit again, bite my teeth and learn it!

But if you'd like to try it, i could actually lend it to you. I have a Matrix version and Steam one since Matrix also provides steam keys for their games (i really like this company). So let me know. The installer is pretty small (780MB or so) so there shouldn't be a problem uploading it somewhere.

Thanks very much, that's very generous. I'll PM you about it.

As to your experience, I fear the same. One thing I read is that you can have the AI play both sides and spectate. I wonder if it could be useful, particularly to see the outcomes of different decisions? The drawback of course is you'd have no idea what considerations might have led to that decision. So perhaps of quite limited use, more entertainment than teaching tool. I don't know, it may be too ambitious for me. Or it may be perfect, who knows

War in the Pacific (matrix) is great. To this day, my favorite war game of all time.

Also War in the East. I have War in the West and I assume it’s as good but I haven’t played it much.

Well I should be playing War in the East in short order

How long I play is a matter of conjecture at the mo.

Airdrop, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the game, why you like it, what you don't like. As stated, I'm interested in how someone felt diving in for the first time and how it went from there. No obligation of course.

DBond, as far as War in the East, I cannot possibly do a better job of explaining why I like it than this thread...it's just fantastic....

http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3183226/wite-grand-campaign-victory#Post3183226

You are correct sir, great link thanks very much. great AAR PB!

I want to conduct encirclement battles!

I didn't even consider needing to convert the rail gauge. What am I in for?!

Another game to explore is "The Operational Art of War IV".

it has everything from tiny scenarios to Barbarossa. And it covers periods from WWI (and before) to hypothetical future events and other What-Ifs.

Thanks for the recommendation. I am familiar with it, but have not played it as with the GG games I have avoided grand strategy WW2 games, but....

I have read PB's AAR up to spring of '42, and I am very much looking forward to it. I think this will be right in my wheelhouse. I have a million questions -- do I have to prepare fallback positions? How? How do I combat partisans? Is there a naval aspect? ANd on and on. With winter approaching (in real life where I can make the best of it as opposed to what I will think in the game...) I was hoping to find a game that I could really dig in to. This looks to be it.

Thanks Airdrop for the link, and PB for taking the huge amount of time these things require. It really is the best look I've had in to what is required, and from what I see, right up my alley.

If there is one thing I learned, it is to see the investiture of Leningrad through to the end and take that city! Those Finns look redoubtable and I can always use to free up a couple Corps

If you go to the Steam page for TOAW IV you can download the manual from it, and have a peek through it.

(Steam is on my other PC so can't link the manual in here).

Hi again DBond

Iam a regular at Matrix Games, and have most of there games, and a fan of wargaming in general. Here´s my YT channel...
Hex2RedOneAlpha

I have WitW among other grand strategy games from Matrix. My biggest grip with GS games is that in the end your moving counters like crazy! Depending on the scale means alot of units to move, so it´s something to take into account. It can even get boring at some times. John Tiller´s Campaign series has that, it works alot on unit fatigue, and you spend alot of time wearing out units, and a bunch of them so you can punch a gap in the lines to get through. Not that it´s a bad thing but, I rather have smaller scales.

I´ll list my fav Matrix games...

"Decision Campaigns: Barbarrosa", a great game by the way and not as "hardcore" as WitW or WitP. In this case you have the whole East Front of troops to move which is a handfull but there´s alot more to it as there is a RPG element to it too...
All the games form VR Desings are great. I also have DC Warsaw to Paris and Advance Tactics Gold.

VR Desings Home site



"Tigers on the Hunt", well if you are a fan of ASL (Advance Squad Leader), then this is for you. It basically uses the ASLSK rules (Advance Squad Leader Starter Kit). It´s made by a one man team (been in the making for 7-8 years) and very passionate about it. The GUI is a bit clunky but you get use to it. I love playing TotH.

A good friend (IDJester) has alot of videso on TotH...



As a side note: Tabletop Simulator (Steam) has a module from Steam workshop that lets you play ASLSK #1-3 with a friend who also owns Tabletop SImulator. Other great wargame modules from GMT and Avalon HIll can be found on the Workshop.

Another all time fav is "Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm . If I had to pick just one, this is it. Love the WEGO system...



My suggestion is to wait till the10-11th. of December, that´s usually when the Matrix Games holiday sales start and you can find games like WitW with 50% or more off. The only games that don´t get a big discount are recent releases. Also, as stated above, its best to buy from Matrix as you also get a Steam key and Matrix is DRM free.

Mind you, this is just my personal opinion.

Red

Exactly how i buy games on Matrix. Every year during holiday sales i get 1-2 titles from them. 2-3 yeas ago they stared sending me coupons (i think for being a member of Matrix long enough) with additional discounts which i can apply on top of regular sales so sometimes it's a steal. I bought War in the East for like 20$. I really like Matrix/Slitherine.

This year i think i'll go for Operational Art of War IV and maybe Silent Service DLC for Command Modern Air/Naval Operations.

So much wargaming goodness, thanks for the links and recommendations fellas. Honestly, I would have been content to keep playing Combat Missions (and actually am playing through a campaign now), but the lack of what I perceive as quality appropriate content has driven me to seek alternatives. As a result, I now have War in the East installed, and many thanks to Cheyenne for his assistance in the matter. I have plenty of reading to do, and campaigns to lose as I learn the finer points. Err, I mean the basics. If my foray in to these grand strategy or operational wargames proves a success, then I will have opened up a whole new genre and the entire backlog of games, all of which will be new to me. I still feel a tactical wargamer at heart, but this could change in the next few weeks

I've been using the term grand strategy, but it's not correct is it? Operational wargame is correct? Well, regardless of what I call it, I plan to try and punch through to Minsk this evening. There is a quick 3-turn mission to play and see if I can break through and take the city as sort of a training/tutorial mission. I think I understand the military concepts needed, but not the mechanical. That will come. I plan a pincer movement from Brest-Litovsk in the south and from near Grodno in the north, hopefully encircling the defenders between these points and racing my mechanized units towards the objective. I've read enough now to at least not be completely lost so we will see how it goes.

My thinking is to try and punch holes with infantry, then the panzers get sent through the gap, and then infantry is brought forward to seal the shoulders and complete the encirclement. I'm thinking I should identify rail lines to serve as axes for the pincers. This is needed to maintain supply? Or will the fact it's wrong gauge mean it's not helpful? Or is it a minor factor in such a short scenario? It should all become obvious at some point once I've played a while, but at this point I have little to no idea how to prosecute the air war, or the supply mechanic or how and when to re-attach units. But I suppose that's half the fun with a game like this. So no need to offer advice, though it's always interesting to hear how others might approach it. The scenario is Road to Minsk.

Once I get home from the boy's soccer practice I plan to sit down with a nice drink and launch my own little blitzkrieg. Should be interesting!

Lesson learned, victory locations are worth far more than enemy formations destroyed. That, or it's expected the German will destroy masses of Russian troops on June 22nd. With only a couple hours of reading under my belt, I dove in to the Road to Minsk scenario on normal. I led it off with an air recon by the AI. I then launched the attack from the locations mentioned above by smashing a hole in the north with infantry divisions. Armor and mechanized divisions were then sent dashing through the gap and toward Minsk.

Next I ran airfield bombing missions, which were as effective as they had been in the event. When this was done I broke through in the south and again mobile formations were sent through the gap. The northern pincer made more progress and was able to reach a position just northwest of the the city of Minsk. The southern arm reached about the halfway point.. I attacked the Russians all along the front and pushed them back, while bringing still more infantry divisions through the holes to try and encircle the mass of enemy units in the central sector of the front. This was partially done as these units have fewer movement points of course. Moves were made to secure the locations shown as Russian VLs to deny them to the enemy, but really they had no chance at this point of launching any attacks, as they were withdrawing everywhere. Still, I secured these towns to deny them the points.

On turn two Minsk was captured by two Corps, and the pocket at the front was closed and the units inside destroyed. I felt afterwards that I should have aimed for a bit of a deeper encirclement, as some units were able to escape before the ring was closed off. Even so, the units that escaped were then cut off in turn by the force that had been sent on to Minsk. In all we trapped about 150,000 Russian troops inside the pocket. My first encirclement battle was a smashing success! I then brought these units forward as far as possible to shorten the lines and re-establish lines of communication with the Minsk force. Everywhere, Ivan was on the run. I consolidated around Minsk and didn't go for the remaining three German VLs as I didn't feel I had the strength in mobility to reach them in force in the one remaining turn. Minsk was the prize and in German hands.

German losses on the ground amounted to 19,000 to all sources. The Russian lost 270,000 men. German aircraft losses were 11 planes, the Russians lost 1000, over 800 on the ground. Feeling good about my success the scenario ended as a draw. Each of the three un-taken VLs were worth more points than all of the enemy formations I destroyed combined. I suppose I need to look at it as an operational game, not a tactical one. Objectives are the thing, and destroying the enemy is simply a means to that end. Another lesson learned.

A few thoughts after my first scenario....

Two things about me, I love maps and I love statistics. On the first point, I am the only person left in the world I think that doesn't use a GPS and instead plans things with maps, old school, as I am told. The map in this game is quite good, but I only had place names for major cities like Warsaw, Minsk , Vilnius and Vitebsk. Is that scenario-specific? Is there a map mod that adds place names for most towns? Are there any essential mods I should be looking for?

On the second point, this game throws statistics at you in spades. I loved following the mounting numbers, checking them constantly, seeing what type of units or vehicle or aircraft were being taken out. The depth here is astounding, and I ate it up. Like in aircraft, tracking the loss types, which were mostly biplanes like I-153 and near-obsolete single engine fighters like I-16s. I noticed at one point we had only destroyed 8 Sturmoviks, and I feared a group of them sat on an undiscovered airfield somewhere waiting to deal me some pain, but not to be. Perhaps the IL-2 hadn't reached the front districts in strength by June of '41? But this sort of minute detail is wonderful in a game of such scale.

Another thought I had was the game is far easier to manage then I had envisioned. It is vastly complex, but this complexity is mostly under the hood, and any fears I had of it being unmanageable were unfounded. Of course I was playing a rather simple scenario with a huge advantage over the enemy. The grand campaign will prove to be something else entirely I believe. And being my very first attempt means I can only get better at it. It frees you to think in strategic terms, and not get bogged down in minutiae. The GC will add much more for me to consider, such as railway repair and conversion, redeploying air units, entraining new formations to be shipped to the front, upgrading divisions and that sort of thing. I had to deal with none of these things in Road to Minsk.

I noticed I had no artillery units. I guess I expected to have artillery backing the front line and would open with a massive barrage, but there were none. Is this a thing?

It was a good start, and a game that I think will suit me. I might shudder a bit when thinking of the time and attention it will require to manage 300 divisions. But perhaps that's part of the appeal.

After work I had a bash about on the interweb and decided on the map mod called A Rainy Day in Russia. The original map is much more, I don't know, pale I guess. And it lacked the place names of all but the largest urban areas, at least as far as I could tell in my brief playtime. This mod includes the names of many the of the smaller towns, which I was very interested in. I read a lot, and have many books on the war in Russia. And while I could always relate to what I was reading on a rough scale (north of Sevastopol for example), this mod will give me that finer level of understanding about exactly where these movements and battles took place. Wargames and sims have always done this for me, they have filled in many of the gaps I find when reading books on the matter. As a popular reference, the TV show MASH always talked about places like Panmunjom and Uijeongbu, but it was only because of Falcon 4 that I actually knew exactly where this was, as opposed to just knowing it's "near Seoul". Anyway, this mod seems just what I was looking for and has a higher contrast, easier on the eyes, and rails really stand out. I saw some people have issues with the counters not standing out or displaying correctly and I'll have to play a while to see if I have any trouble. Could always install different counters if necessary. And honestly I see zero difference with the counters from when I played anyway, but I have yet to stare at it for hundreds of hours. Maybe nothing changed when I installed it.



That shot is the start state for the Road to Minsk scenario I played, but on a new map, You can already see the pocket just begging to be formed

It seems you like it:) I'am glad! You got me inspired so i think i'll dive into it once again.

I do like it. It brings out my inner Kleist

After installing the map mod I decided to have another go at Road to Minsk, to try out a different sort of plan and see if I could do better than a draw. This plan worked better, but still resulted in a draw. I broke through the lines at the same spots as before, but aimed my pincers farther east to tie a bigger noose around the Russian. A double double-envelopment was the goal. The ring was closed another 100 miles to the east, just to the west of Minsk. The panzercorps that were the arms of the pincers then met east of Minsk to complete the double move and forcing the Minsk defenders to abandon the city.

In a longer game this might have paid dividends as this time we destroyed 320,000 troops (+50,000) and 1300 planes (+300) , but neither of these things helped me reach the three VLs along the eastern edge of the map. Taking just one of these in addition to Minsk would be enough to turn that draw in to at least a minor victory I think. They seemingly lie just a bit too far beyond the range I can move my panzers in 3 turns. I was at the gates of both Mogilev and Zhlobin, but didn't have the movement left to enter these locations before the scenario ended. Need to work on how to get maximum 'speed' out of my panzercorps.. I 'waste' MPs by taking a non-optimum route perhaps, or by moving through an enemy unit's ZoC, or by needing to brush a unit aside instead of bypassing it. I just need a few more movement points to win this one. Ah, the finer points of operational command

Isn’t it a great feeling to surround a huge mass of enemy divisions?

It is indeed Airdrop! I was excited to see how I did with big encirclements and to have the first one come off splendidly was very satisfying. Of course in this scenario the Russian is woefully unprepared and vulnerable, so it's not like it takes a genius, but still, it was pretty awesome when these units saw they had no hope and began surrendering enmasse.

That screen I put up of the map shows just how vulnerable they are. They're just asking for it.

Anyway, I have a new plan to try this evening and see if I can pull off a victory in this one. Then it's time to move to scenarios a bit bigger. If I can get a handle on the ones lasting around 10 turns, then perhaps I'll be ready to start a grand campaign. I still have lots to learn before then though.



Haha, excellent, you helped me get in to it, and now that has led you to get in to it. Nice. I hope you try the Road to Minsk so we can compare notes.

Slow work days are great when you're trying to learn about a complex game. I wonder if my inability to reach the final objectives has something to do with supply or how I am moving my HQ units? The scenario is only 3 turns and honestly I haven't paid much attention to this. I just move my HQ units along with my forces, keeping everything that's the same color near one another. I haven't reassigned any units to another HQ. I haven't used air-resupply, or any supply functions. I haven't used the railway battalions, and don't even know if they are present in this scenario. That's something to focus on during run #3 tonight.

In run #1 I didn't move airbases forward, and had noticed I wasn't getting any action from the airfield bombing mode in subsequent turns, so in run #2 I did some of this and had better results. I've also read how some players are breaking their divisions down in to regiments to increase their options for maneuver. I have not done this.

The military concepts at play in this game seem relatively obvious if you're a seasoned wargamer, but the other factors such as command and control and especially supply are a bit less clear. Well, completely unclear right now. I have to get a grip on this if I want to move to bigger scenarios.

The command system is baffling too. I see the units grouped together with the same color. But clicking on them seems to show they are all subordinate to a mishmash of higher headquarters, even if the units are stacked together, none list the same HQ, but clearly they are all part of the same grouping. I need to work all of this out as well. I feel like I am at the stage where I can skillfully conduct a breakthrough, but I wouldn't be able to sustain it until I can get a handle on these issues. My blitzkrieg would quickly devolve in to sitskrieg with my current level of understanding. So working this stuff out is next on the agenda as I work my way to a grand campaign.

Supply and C3 are big in this. It’s really operational on that level.

You’ll get it. Just keep playing and read the manual.

There's a manual?

j/k, but I have yet to crack it. I should, I really should.

Yes, I'll get it, complex games pique my interest and hold it. I mentioned EU IV earlier and while it's not the absolute pinnacle of complexity, it was something that I really dug in to and learned all of the concepts and mechanics. Challenge is a quality all it's own. Didn't Stalin say that?

Third time's a charm as they say. The first two runs at Road to Minsk taught me a lot. If you want to score victories, at least as far as the scoring goes, you need to take objectives. It's awesome to ensnare gobs of the Soviet troops, and over the course of a longer campaign that would be preferable. But here I knew that I had to take not only Minsk, but at least one of the other secondary objectives if I wanted better than a draw. So I devised a new plan and that was to race for the objectives on the eastern edge of the map and if a pocket formed, all the better. The Soviet troops aren't nearly as mobile in the main as the Germans of course, so they'd be trapped all the same, even if I hadn't drawn a tight ring around them. These objectives are Vitebsk in the north, Mogilev in the center and Zhlobin in the south. I didn't think I could reach all three, so I decided not to go for Vibtesk in the north. The German motorized and panzer divisions are in the center and south, so it made sense to orient the thrusts in these directions. He who defends everything defends nothing, and surely the attacking corollary is true as well. If you dilute your attacks to take all, you might not get any.

I downloaded a couple of screenshot programs tonight. I'd like to post edited screens, with graphics to show routes and other info. I've posted a ton of AARs on SimHQ, with lots of pics, but I've failed to properly edit them for one's viewing pleasure. I downloaded something called Snap View but it didn't actually capture the game, just the task bar,. Too bad because the editing tools were good. So I got FRAPS. There is no in-game screenshot key, which is baffling in this day and age. So FRAPS it is, but unless you pay for it you can only save images in freakin' massive formats, so I have to then convert it to JPEG so it fits under the one meg limit on this board. Too much work. Bah.

This shot shows the start state, with victory flags turned on so you see where the Germans need to capture. It's hard to see because the unit counters block it somewhat, but the western most three flags are all-red and are the Russian objectives and the four eastern flags are blue and red and are the German objectives.



On run #3 in this scenario I was much more deliberate. taking care to evaluate each division's possible moves. I used them more independently, rather than just move them around as stacks. This is important especially if the start stacks are mixed infantry and mobile units. I did the air phase and then broke through in the south, at Brest Litovsk. Using only infantry I broke the front open, and took Brest Litovsk. In my earlier runs I moved the panzer and motorized units after the line was breached, but before the city fell. With the enemy zone of control in effect, this caused these units to move through a couple of extra hexes. I wanted to squeeze every bit of speed I could out of them, so no armor or motorized units were moved, or used in attack until the front was breached and Brest Litovsk taken. With the city taken, the southern thrust could move straight down the rail line through the city and saved valuable movement points.

After the breach, I used the First Cavalry Division to open the corridor. This shot shows this situation. At this point only First Cavalry and the light blue infantry units have been used. The path is clear to send the panzers on, and they have all of their movement points.



First Cavalry is the lone unit deep behind the lines and has brushed aside all resistance to that point where they ran out of movement points (MPs). But by clearing the route it allows other following units to move further along the line, and after this shot was taken I used Das Reich to smash through the resistance just northeast of First Cav. Das Reich is the unit at the lower left that is colored black. One by one I used all the motorized units in the south to keep clearing the way, and when these were all used, finally the armored divisions were unleashed and were able to roll to the maximum of their movement range.

In the previous two attempts I used my pincers to orient on Minsk. It worked well and captured the main prize easily enough. This time though I bypassed Minsk to the south and headed straight for Zhlobin. The effort to save the movement points paid off as the southern thrust was abreast Minsk at the end of the first turn and I knew, barring running out of fuel, I would take that city in the two remaining turns. The northern breakthrough was aimed at Minsk as a precaution, but also reached it in one turn. So I believed I could now get Mogilev too. Follow up units could take Minsk. And that's what happened. The 10th Panzer Division took Zhlobin at the end of turn two, and 12th Panzer took Mogilev on turn three. Guderian himself strode in to the abandoned Minsk.

This plan destroyed fewer of the enemy as I was less concerned with them and more so with reaching the objectives. The enemy lost 280,000 troops, 4000 guns, 2000 tanks and yet again 1300 planes (see final screenshot for ground figures). German air losses doubled as I made more use of the asset, but that's still only 50 planes. With all but one objective in German hands we scored a Major Victory.



Learned a little more in this run, and worked out the rail repair which will help me move on to bigger scenarios. One interesting thing I saw was that the factory at Marienburg was shown as producing a Fw-190G, in June of '41. 'Sup with that?

I talked before about the stats this game tracks. Here is the final tally of units destroyed. This is just the tip of the iceberg, but notice the detail. On the left are the Soviet losses. Good stuff.

I use "Snagit 13" or windows "snipping tool" for screen capture.

I was helping someone over at Matrix yesterday with this matter...
Matrix Screen Capture Help

Red

Thanks for the suggestion, I read that thread. Was hoping for a free solution of course, not that I couldn't splash some cash. Check out this image




I want to be able to put arrows like this on the map. What software should I look at? Actually I 'd like a different form, like a wider, "hollow" arrow that I can send other arrows off of to show a situation like pincers moving deep, but also showing where other units were dropped off along the way, or took a divergent route if that makes sense. I want them to be able to be able to be manipulated so I can vary how much curve they have in them, or change color, width and length for different situations.

So I want a capture utility that grabs numerous jpegs and lets me edit them to show movement and other info. Is Snagit good for this?

This might be what your looking for...

Battle Chronicler

In French, sorry but so you get an Idea..



Red

Mare kee buckets moni me.

That's French too you see.

That has potential I suppose. Or maybe I'll just need to paint the picture with my flowery prose.

I think I will try to move up in the world tonight and try one of the other "Road to" scenarios. Still clueless about HQ organization, or even identifying my units. I need to find a mod that replaces the Roman numeral designations with numbers. I hope that exists. 47th Panzer Corps instead of XXXXVII Panzer Corps. I have a head for numbers and Roman numerals are not included in this gift

I'm happy I managed my first victory. I was sure that while I reported my failures (if draws are failures), that Cheyenne would pop up saying he claimed a total victory first try lol.

Sorry DBond, today and whole weekend is a moving day for me and my family:) Zero gaming, maybe next week i'll have some spare time. So in the mean time please continue. I'll definitely read your reports, hopefully learning a thing or two

I hope the move goes smoothly, not my favorite thing to do. Lots of work. Good luck with it.

I had planned to start a new scenario, Road to Smolensk, which is essentially the same as Road to Minsk, but you command a wider front and have deeper objectives, including the prize of Moscow. 10 turns instead of 3. In comparison to RtM it will require more dedication to your supply chain, and also features much heavier unit withdrawal, This is strategic withdrawal, not tactical. Portions of your forces will be siphoned off to other fronts and it's imperative you know the schedule. Some units will be removed after the first turn some after the second, the third, the fifth and so on. Plans have to account for this. I keep peeling back the onion and find more and more depth and complexity. I said earlier most of the complexity is beneath the hood, and while that's true, there's plenty above ground too.

So the upshot is that I don't feel quite ready to move on to Smolensk and decided to run Road to Minsk for a fourth time. In a way I've decided to approach the game like I would when learning Falcon 4's cockpit. Break it down in to modules. Like learning the left panel before moving on. Know every switch, what it does, what it's modes are. Last night I concentrated on two things, administration and the air component.

Administrations is about the leadership, which units are assigned to which headquarters and how they are positioned so that all units attached benefit from the link. Units out of command range will suffer penalties such as lower supply and combat effectiveness. For the first three runs I made no changes here. Diving in deeper though I spotted some things I thought could improve my efficiency, and perhaps lead to greater success in larger scenarios. In order to maximize your effectiveness in the big scenarios, you'll need every edge you can get.

Ignoring the Soviet side of things for now, the player has a full roster of German leaders. Generals assigned to command the various headquarters, as well as ones currently with no command, your reserve if you will. Each one is rated in a variety of factors. Morale, politics, how well they handle supplies, combat effectiveness with mechanized and infantry units, initiative and more. Who is in command will have a big influence on how the campaign plays out. Many are familiar names (Manstein, Kleist, Guderian for example) and others will be less well known. Assigning your best leaders, and matching their strengths to the units they are assigned to is a skill that will pay off. It's a big roster, but I think imperative that I get to know them all to efficiently staff my HQs. It may not make much difference in the three-turn scenario I am playing, but over the course of the grand campaign I would imagine it will have a huge cumulative effect.

The scope of the alterations that can be made here is limited by a mechanic called administrative points. The player receives a predetermined constant number each turn, usually 15 or 20 it seems based on the scenario you're playing. Relieving a leader has an admin cost, say 5 for a middling General. Assigning the replacement costs another point. Dismissing a General of more renown or importance (or maybe rank or how high in the chain his headquarters is) has a higher cost. So you cannot afford to make sweeping changes and have to be more selective before you run out of points. Administrative points have other uses as well, so you must be prudent. Becoming familiar with all of your leaders and making best use of them within administrative constraints will be the sort of thing that separates advanced players.

For my first stab (clever pun) at this I had a look through the roster, comparing various strengths and weaknesses, One thing that jumped out at me was that Walter Model was unassigned to any command. His ratings are exceptional as you might expect, a master of supply and combat, especially infantry. In a longer campaign I would likely have chosen to assign him to command an infantry formation. But in Road to Minsk I decided to assign him to a Panzer Corps. In this scenario my panzers are not intended to fight much, but to penetrate deep behind the lines, so I reasoned they would benefit from his supply and movement mastery. LVII Panzer Corps was commanded by a general named Adolph Kuntzen, who was fairly average, and had middling ratings for admin (supply) and initiative (movement). He faced the axe and Model replaced him. This should have a big effect on the capabilities of LVII Panzer Corps. And since this unit will form the core of my northern thrust this move should pay off.

After giving Model a new job, I had a look at my Luftwaffe. This scenario features two Fliegerkorps of Luftlotte 2. One in the north and one in the south. I've learned that supply is heavily linked to distance from the HQ, By default, the airfields and HQ are not ideally placed, leaving some airfields outside of the 5-hex limit. So I spent some time repositioning to ensure all squadrons were within range. It's important to note that airfields must be in clear or wooded hexes. The HQ can be in a city, but not the airdromes.

In addition I learned that the max range of my Stukas is 11 hexes. So I made sure to bring these forward so that they were in position to hit the front line airfields and to help support my breakthrough and the troops in and around the pocket I expected to form in the central front.

In my first three runs I simply let the AI handle the air war. You just choose the mode (airbase bombing, city attacks,recon, ground support) and then click AI. The program decides on the composition of the raids and carries them out automatically. It was highly effective. The German player gets large bonuses on turn one only, to account for the effects of a surprise attack and you want to take advantage. So I wondered if I could make better use of the assets. I made alterations to the Air Doctrine which guides the air war. And instead of having the AI run the missions, I did them manually. This allows you to choose which squadrons take part. You can select whether you will use Do-17s, He-111s, Stukas and which fighter units, if any, will escort them. You can even assign whether your fighter bombers will be fighter or bombers (in this scenario that's the Me-110s) Very cool level of involvement. Units can fly again and again, they are limited by miles flown, but as each turn equals one week, this means many missions can be flown.

In the event I was able to repeatedly target the enemy airfields, starting with their fighter bases to limit their follow-on ability to intercept my raids. By the time I had run out of targets, the Red air force was smashed. When I let the AI run it we destroyed 800 aircraft on the first turn. Done manually it was 1000. So a 25% increase in effectiveness running the air war manually this time. I only used about an average of 30% of available air miles, so these units are still free to assist on the ground or attacking cities if I should need it.

Oh yeah, almost forgot.... administratively I made a couple of other changes (and one reason you want to be prudent with spending admin points). In the south I noticed that XXXVII Panzer Corps had an infantry division attached, the 167th. I reattached it to an infantry corps, to free the supply burden and so that the panzers weren't held back by the slower infantry unit. XXIV Panzer Corps has the 267th Infantry Division attached and it was also reassigned to the infantry corps. These two moves lighten the load for the two panzer corps who will form the core of my southern thrust and hopefully allow them to drive deeper in to the Russian rear.

So with that I've added a couple of new wrinkles to my operational planning and command. getting a handle on administration to more effectively organize my forces, and to be more hands-on with my air assets, hopefully increasing their effectiveness. Once the attack is launched we will see if it pays off.

Great reports DBond. It's definitely better than reading the manual;) I knew your posts would serve me better than learning the game on my own.

Thanks, I hope it is useful in some way. If nothing else I am getting quite a lot of experience at the opening moves for Army Group Center There is a lot to consider and that appeals to me. I've only scratched the surface thus far. There is much more I need to learn, especially in regards to supply/logistics, HQ build-ups and making the best use of the massive amount of information we have on offer. It's easy to smash through an unprepared enemy, but sustaining that momentum is the real challenge.

One other administrative note for the start turn of Road to Minsk. The XXXVII Panzer Corps had one additional infantry division attached and it was also re-assigned to the infantry corps, I think the 255th. All three infantry divisions were reassigned to XII Corps.

I ran the scenario twice more. After the post above, run number 4 went well, although my plan this time was too ambitious. I wanted to score a total victory and capture all VLs including Vibtesk. So instead of using Hoth's 3rd Panzergruppe to help seal the pocket, I sent one panzer corps north in an effort to reach Vibtesk by the end of turn three, and the other to bypass Minsk to the north in a dash for Mogilev and then pivot 90 degrees to the north to help seal off Vibtesk. Two problems arose. One is that I found I couldn't reach Vibtesk in 3 turns along the north edge of the map due to terrain, supply problems and river crossings. Came close, but not quite.

The second problem that arose is I didn't leave myself enough strength to properly seal the pocket. It was closed, but far too tenuously and the Russian was able to break out a bit to the northeast. We still captured Minsk, Mogilev and Zhlobin, but we failed to take as many troops because of the broken pocket, which not only allows some to escape encirclement, but also allows the ones still inside to trace a supply route and less likely to surrender, making clearing the pocket more difficult. In this shot you see the result of my overly ambitious plan. The Vibtesk panzer group is the light green unit along the north edge. They essentially were sent on a dead end. Now, if the scenarios lasted more turns, this position could be favorable, but in this scenario it just didn't work out. And you can see how fragile the weak ass ring I formed is. End of turn 1.






So I did it again, run #5. This time I aimed to put it all together. Form a lock tight kessel and capture all VLs aside from Vibtesk. The main goal was to destroy as much of the Red Army as possible. It went well, a large pocket was drawn and closed off well.



Minsk was bypassed on turn two and Zhlobin and Mogilev were easily taken by the end. Model's panzer corps was approaching Vibtesk and possibly could have taken it next turn. I like the look of the corridor we've opened here, and the leading panzers aren't that far from Smolensk at this point. In the grand campaign other armies will be making their own penetrations to the north and south of this map, so I think the troops we brushed aside toward Vibtesk and those that chose to flee in to the Pripyat marshes might be trapped by these movements. I need to play the other "Road to" scenarios to give me some experience in each of the major sectors of the front. (Leningrad, Kiev) Once I feel I have a good plan for each, I can then stitch them together to get a good start in the grand campaign. Or that's the plan anyway. This is the end of turn three, the end of the scenario. I figured out how to get the lighter green/red so the territory won stands out a little better than in the previous screenshot.




Here are the final ground tallies, with some of the breakdown of my losses on the left. This is easily the most troops I've taken. The best from any of the first four runs was 320,000. Here it's nearly 380,000, including 294,000 taken prisoner, as every unit caught in the pocket was destroyed.






I wonder if anyone can tell me why the Russian received points for Mogilev and Zhlobin? Do they get points per turn for still possessing it or something?

Ahh, I'm guessing ET is end turn and EG is end game, so they are indeed getting points per turn. They get it for four turns though, even though I captured them on turn three, but if that's how it works, that's how it works.

I did a fair bit of recon on the Kiev and Leningrad scenarios. But ya know what, I think I am going to dive straight in to the grand campaign. I know enough now to be dangerous, but probably not enough to prevail. We shall see. I keep thinking about the GC so might as well give it a go and see if my landsers can push through to the end and claim victory. I will make mistakes, but I can't see screwing it up as much as it was in real life. I plan to play the CG with the 260 point requirement instead of the normal 290.

I have all of these grand plans in mind, so am eager to see if I can pull it off. And besides, the Germans didn't get a chance to practice these operations over and over before June 22nd anyway

All I've done is some reorganization,assigned new leaders, and the airfield strikes. I've destroyed more than 1000 more planes on the opening morning than the Luftwaffe did, so that's a fine start indeed. I might start over anyway to try a few things out before kicking this thing off for real.

My goals for the first 10 weeks will be to capture Leningrad, Smolensk, Kiev and Odessa, and form a bridgehead across the Dnepr at Cherkassy. If I can swing that I would be in good shape and can push for Moscow before the weather turns bad,

Second phase would include Moscow, Kharkov and Kursk and hopefully push down near the Crimea, if not enter it outright before the winter sets in. Too ambitious?

Getting the Finns committed is paramount, so Leningrad seems the key.

This sh!t is epic!

D@mn... i created a monster

We finished moving so soon i should be able to start my own playtesting. But like i said, please continue your reports. They are a big help and a great read!

Yes, it's all your fault, but after a hesitant start, I've really been sucked in. I find myself absorbed by operational planning, thinking about all the time. This morning I woke up and the very first thought I had was wondering how long it would take to reach the Donets

Instead of playing tonight I spent quite a bit of time reading the manual, especially in regards to leadership, chain of command, supply, ground combat, weather and movement. It's amazing how much goes in to each calculation. It's very impressive. I tend to laud any game with this sort of complexity and WitE is right near the top of the list. Making it even more so is the speed with which these calculations occur. Not only is this game probably the fastest loading game I have, the turns themselves take far less time than I would think is necessary for everything that is going on, A programming masterpiece, to my eye anyway. (disclaimer to carry over for the rest of the thread: I understand this game has been out for 8 years, and many players have mastered it long ago, and my comments might appear as if I have discovered it at the exclusion of those who came before. But it's new to me)

One of the things I focused on as I continue my crash course in operational command is again leadership. I feel like this will prove to be one of the most crucial aspects determining my fate on the eastern front. For example, there are optimum HQ levels for each rank of general. I'm not sure exactly how much effect it has, but whenever you see the word optimal, you gotta pay attention. I then spent several hours combing through my leadership, comparing generals, learning their strengths and trying to determine where they would best be placed. Of course I am limited by the administration points (I get 50 per turn in the grand campaign) so it cannot all be done at once. The Germans have a number of highly capable generals with no command, and many poor quality generals in important positions.

As the most obvious example, OKH is commanded by Halder of course. But he doesn't have the best attributes, most notably to me in morale. OKH must be run by a Field Marshall, of which there are few at the start, though generals can earn promotions and later I might have more. I wish I knew more, but I'm tempted to replace him with von Kluge, who is rated much higher overall, but nominally worse in administration. I learned that dismissal cost is mostly determined by the political rating and not the other factors I speculated on earlier. If I understand it correctly, installing a better OKH would have an effect on every Axis unit on the map (or perhaps only German), and the right move here could make my entire force more capable in all aspects. Of course von Kluge is in command of 4th Army, so these sorts of moves have a knock on effect, and it all costs points. Luckily there are good generals waiting for a command, such as Balck, Model and Weiss (and more), all of whom will start the invasion with active commands if I can afford the points.

This leadership aspect fascinates me, and I clearly see the importance of maximizing the potential by placing the most effective men in charge, at the right levels, and with the right sort of command to suit their strengths. I won't kick this thing off until I am satisfied I've got it right, at least insofar as my limited knowledge and administration points allow.

Minutes before dawn on June 22, the crash of thousands of guns reverberated all along the front as I kicked this thing off. I've had the game a week, but nothing like learning on the job eh?

In the end I did indeed replace Halder with Kluge. I then planned to replace whoever took Kluge's command of 4th Army with Model, but the game did it for me! That saved a few admin points which was nice. Even though I get 50 admin points per turn, I only started with 30, which precluded making any additional command changes as the remaining points would be needed for organizational changes at the Corps level. I discovered to my dismay that the 'Optimal General' thing I mentioned earlier means that if you try to install a general who is below optimal rank for the job it costs a big premium in admin points. Some of my most capable leaders with no command are Major Generals and to make them a corps commander will cost roughly 25 admin points. Men like Balck and Weiss I want to use, but the cost is prohibitive and I'll have to decide if it's worth it. Perhaps they will be given command automatically of newly formed units, or perhaps they will earn promotions so it's not an issue, but I doubt they will if they aren't fighting battles. We will see. But it bothers me to have better commanders cooling their heels while less capable men lead my glorious armies deep in to Russia.

I opened hostilities with a devastating assault from the air on the Red Air Force. It's nice to have Para Bellum's AAR as a reference, and I came up short of his massive haul. Still, we destroyed nearly 4000 Russian aircraft on the first turn, for a loss of only 70 of our own, which as silly as it sounds was more than I thought I would lose. My 'wonder bombers' in particular suffered. Still, it's a massive blow to the enemy, and the big gains I made on the first turn will bring a whole new set of enemy airfields within range as my airdromes follow the advance.

I don't have any screens to show at this time, but what happened for me was virtually identical to what you see in Para Bellum's first turn. Leeb's Army Group North (AGN) punched through and one panzer corps reached Riga, sealing it off. I didn't want to risk my armor on the streets of the city, so it will need to await the arrival of the infantry. A second panzer corps with Totenkopf attached was sent toward Polotsk to shield the right flank, while infantry formations clear western Lithuania and Latvia of the enemy trapped by the thrust to RIga.

Bock's Army Group Center (AGC) did essentially the same thing as shown in my Road to Minsk posts, and maybe even a little better too. The "Slonim Pocket" was closed tight trapping virtually the entire Western Front. Hoth's tanks reached the northern suburbs of Minsk and Guderian reached Slutsky to the south after a combined assault by the Luftwaffe and an infantry corps took the fortress at Brest-Litovsk. AGC is the most powerful of my Army Groups, most of my armor is concentrated here, and have gotten off to a great start.

Rundstedt's Army Group South (AGS) is the largest of the army groups, and suffers from an overload of the command capacity mechanic. The southern front also suffers from having the strongest enemy forces opposing them, as well as having a large portion of my forces frozen at the start. The Romanians, the Hungarians, and some of my mobile formations including what SS there is in the south are unavailable at the start. I did the same thing PB did and sent what little armor I have on a thrust behind Lvov, with the goal of meeting my allies once they wake up and trapping the southern front, cutting off Lvov. If successful, I can then wheel to the east and will look to cross the Dniepr river at Cherkassy. If this succeeds, I will then pivot them north and follow the right bank to cut off Kiev, while my allies march on Odessa. I'm sure the enemy will have something to say about all of this though.

I feel like the southern front is the most difficult to plan. It's the wildcard in this whole business. In the north and center I feel like the course of action is obvious, but the south is a blank canvas. I should have run the "Road to Kiev" scenario at least once.

In all we are off to a fantastic start, but that's not hard to do considering the forces available and the unpreparedness of the enemy. The true tests lie down the road. When you zoom out the map to the highest level you are struck by how constricted the front is (on a continental scale), but every mile you advance sees the territory to be won expand out, meaning the deeper we go the longer the front, and the more stretched our forces will become. And at some point the enemy will get it's sh!t together. My job is to try and ensure that doesn't happen. Supply problems and the coming winter will put an end to the massive gains we made in the first week. The key now is to go as far as possible before that happens.

This first screen is air losses from the end of turn 1, after the Russian moves. A big haul, and interesting to look over I think. 3900 aircraft destroyed, including 3500 on the ground, at the cost of 70 for us. Our Ju-88s and Bf109s took moderate losses. Everything else came out in good shape.




Turn 2 (second week of the campaign) went well. In AGN's sector the two panzer corps moved on Pskov,, with one swinging out in a right hook to protect the flank. while infantry continued to clear out the area sealed off by these thrusts in western Latvia and Lithuania. One infantry corps invested Riga and made preparations for the assault next turn. My original timetable had Riga taken on turn 2, but while the infantry could have attacked, I feared it would have been costly and even have failed off the march. More infantry is following in the wake with the ultimate objective of Leningrad. That however is several weeks away. To the southeast infantry have crossed the Daugava and formed a bridgehead.

In AGS's sector Lvov was taken on turn 1, ahead of schedule and the armored thrust behind almost reached the static Romanians to close the pocket, but fell 20 miles short, leaving a small gap through which some enemy may have escaped. Resistance in this sector is lighter than I might have expected, and unless they are heavily reinforced my armor should be able to wheel to the east while the infantry clear the remnants in the Lvov pocket. It appears little blocks the way to the Dnepr. My original goal was to get across at Cherkassy at the earliest opportunity and at the moment it looks good. The Romanians will wake up next turn and march on Odessa, which will protect the right flank of the armored thrust on Cherkassy. Enemy in the Pripyat marshes cause me concern and I don't know how to deal with this, if I should clear it out, or just close it off and hope they melt away. Maybe I should use 2nd Army to clear it and continue on to Gomel. I had planned to reassign 2nd Army to AGN to ease the command burden on Bock, but perhaps they would be better used here, and then can shift them to the north later.

In AGC's sector things are suddenly not looking good. The Slonim pocket was eliminated, bagging a huge number of divisions, and Minsk was taken. One of Guderian's panzer corps reached the Dnepr at Zhlobin and another is almost in Mogilev. Hoth's tanks reached Orsha and the landbridge there. Crossings are planned at each site. Two problems. One, supplies are low, and while I think I can establish bridgeheads here, there won't be enough fuel to exploit any breakthroughs and pocket or capture Smolensk. My original timetable, based largely on Para Bellum's AAR, had Smolensk as a turn 3 target.

This shot is from PB's AAR, turn 3. He has taken Smolensk, and there is little in terms of enemy anywhere in the Vitebsk-Mogilev-Smolensk triangle. His screens are taken at the end of the turn, so it's difficult to know what enemy had stood on the Dnepr prior to his crossing. For this type of advance though, I suspect it wasn't a strong defense.



If this screenshot causes problems (slow loading due to being posted 7 years ago) or if it's bad form to repost someone else's screens I will change it to a link.

The second and much more serious problem for me is the Russian appears to be making a stand on the Dnepr. They have thrown a huge force in to the line. This is the end of turn 2 for me, Hoth's tanks (light green around Orsha) have run up against a strong force. guarding Vitebsk. The way to Smolensk though appears manageable, and perhaps could lead to pocketing the Vibtesk defenders. A seemingly golden opportunity, logistic troubles aside.



However......




This is the start of turn 3. Instead of pulling back, the Russian has thrown even more troops in to the line of the Dnepr and astride the landbridge. You can see how much stronger they have become during their turn, especially around Orsha (where you see my highlighted panzer divisions, the 20th and 7th). I didn't expect this at all, and I'm not sure how to deal with it. At the bottom center of this shot you can see Guderian's leading panzers at Zhlobin (light blue). They can get across the river unopposed, and could move on Smolensk, possibly compelling the Russian to abandon the river. But these formations are low on fuel. I can establish a bridgehead here, but not much more on turn 3.

I could also try to trap the defenders between Orsha and Vitebsk. Hoth's other panzer corps is sitting east of Borisov and could move north to attempt to envelop Vitebsk, but terrain is unfavorable and would require two crossings of the Dvina. Their supply situation is better, but this move could leave them in jeopardy of being cut off. Without them, I have no northern pincer to trap these Russian formations as AGN's panzers have already arrowed northeast toward Pskov..

In all, this enemy stand has completely thrown my plans in the center to the wind. What I think I need to do is form my bridgeheads and wait for the infantry to catch up, allowing the panzer corps to replenish their supplies for the push on Smolensk. Once the infantry is in place on the west bank of the Dnepr and against the enemy guarding the landbridge I can attempt to seal them off with armor. There are very powerful Russian formations in this area. If I could pocket them it would mean a huge haul and cause the enemy major losses, and possibly deny him the troops he might have otherwise used to defend in front of Moscow (wishful thinking!). It's possible if I can punch through at Orsha, I could send both of Hoth's corps around in a left hook to complete the encirclement with a single thrust of two corps and avoid the unfavorable route over the Dvina. All of this will require an infantry anvil and has put a serious brake on my plans. I wanted to be approaching Moscow in September at the latest. Now it looks optimistic. The only silver lining I can see is these may be the troops I would have run in to on the approaches to Moscow. So if I can eliminate them between Orsha and Vitebsk, it may make the next leap far easier. One can hope.

I know this game has gone through many revisions, many patches over the past 7 years. But I am surprised at the difference between my run and what PB experienced. I don't see how he could have eliminated this mass of enemy and still been able to capture Smolensk in three turns. Surely he met little resistance here. Or maybe I'm just bad at this

Keep the AAR reports coming DBond, just as detailed as always.
This looks very similar to my old board game "Russian Front" (that I never played to end due to scale and time needed).
And it's old too, 8 years you say?

While it looks overly complicated I think I've learned a thing or two just reading these pages.

Short nubbery questions:
What are the numbers on the counters representing?
The brownish hexes, are they somekind of fog or war (despite one can see units deep inside) or just "not touched by axis units or their ZoC"?
Can/will units make a "response move" if you move twice in their ZoC?
Are there paratroop moves with airunits (Red Army only I guess if so)?
Do you have option to make "strategic moves" along the railway inside safe hexes?
Weather, will you suffer in rain/mud/snow?


I'll go read PB's thread for a while I think.

I also need to go watch some "lets play" videos I guess

Oden old chum, thanks for the questions. How's things?

Yes, game was released in 2010, but it has undergone many changes, so much so that I feel like the version PB played in 2011 and the one I am playing now are quite different.

I know you know your NATO symbology, so know what denotes an army, a corps, a division, a brigade, etc. The numbers on the bottom of the counters are Combat Value (CV) - Movement Points (MP). So using the 20th Panzer Division in the last screenshot as an example it shows 20-10. Combat Value is a complicated formula that factors in just about everything you can imagine, including morale, experience, weaponry, command, terrain, supplies, attached support and on and on, and then is rounded down by 1000 to result in the number you see here. It's rather an approximation of that unit's ability to attack and take ground. There is a separate defensive CV that does not display on the counter.

Movement points are just what you'd expect, and is another formula that determines it based on unit type, supply and fuel situation and so on.

The brownish hexes are enemy territory, and can be toggled on and off. There is a FOW option, but I have it off for this run.

If by response move you mean will they displace, or attack/interdict your movement the answer is no with the exception of HQ units and airfields that will automatically displace when you move adjacent (and you have a chance of capturing some of their supplies)

I have no experience yet with airborne units so no idea really.

Movement by rail is possible yes, and necessary of course when new units are formed in Germany (but I have yet to see this). I have yet to use the railways, but if I choose to move 2nd Army to AGN I will get a little practice with it I suppose. Using the rails to move troops comes at the expense of supplies, so it's a balancing act. Supply/logistics is the single most important thing for German success in this campaign I would reckon, so I guess it's best to keep troop movements by rail to a minimum.



Oh good Lord yes. Mud in October, then a short freeze to renew operations, then the blizzards in December. Then the mud comes again in the spring before the campaigning season arrives. If you read PB's AAR he shows this in great detail. There is a random setting, but I have gone with historical for my first run.

Thanks, and yes I think I got many of my questions settled from this tutorial too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LW8YC4KJ0Q

This is huge in details, maybe a tad bit too much for me but I will read every single post you make here until you win the war (you are going to win, right? )

We (SimHQ) believe in you DBond, you can do this!

Thanks. After turn 1 I would have said, yes I will win. But then turn 2 happened....

The game is pricey, but evidently Matrix has a winter/Christmas sale every year which should start soon. Too bad if you don't think you'd enjoy it. I could really use some perspectives from other players. I'm 8 years late to the party and few are interested. Like I'd love to know how another German player dealt with the Pripyat marshes for example.

I haven't watched your video, but I will say it's possible to play the game with an insane amount of micro, or you could play like me, thinking strategically and pushing counters around, but letting the computer handle all of the minutiae. I red this the other day and wanted to stick a fork in my brain. While this surely leads to better play, it's not necessary to play like that, against the AI anyway. A wide range of settings means you can tailor the difficulty, I 'm playing on the default normal settings.

So while I could use a partner in crime, especially you (since we are alike in many ways), I understand if you give it a a pass.

It sure looks interesting but i'm used to corps and army level from my board game along with bigger hexes (some 45 miles iirc) so all these brigade and even regiment units scares me a little
The price isn't really an issue but I'm split between this and HOI 4 and just can't make up my mind.
Maybe i should buy both of them but I need time, lot of time to consume games this size - now that both kids moved out I do have more time so ya, maybe I should go for it.


edit:
Btw, Pripet marsh is a no go zone even in my old board game - only russian cavalry goes there

That's a tough choice, and I've had HOI 4 on my wishlist for a long time, but I never pulled the trigger since my impression is the AI doesn't give a proper fight, they don't act logically/correctly. That may have changed, I dunno.

As to time invested, as mentioned I've had the game for a week and although I am clearly still a novice, it was enough to at least give me the basics to launch a grand campaign. But I am not sure I really know enough to do well. That said, it takes this sort of practical experience to help me understand. I'm better doing it and then filling in the blanks with study, than to learn it all first before attempting the big scenarios. And there is plenty to do short of a grand campaign. As you might have seen, I played the 3-turn Road to Minsk scenario five times and then felt semi-prepared to invade Russia along the entire front. My lack of mastery over the logistical side of things I think will prove my undoing, and the signs are already showing along the Dnepr west of Smolensk

Lastly, scale is scale. When games are of a similar nature, then the difference between an army or a corps versus a division or regiment is simply numbers on a counter. The concepts are the same more or less. I say this now, but I avoided games like this a long, long time. But now that I've jumped in I see that I shouldn't have been worried.

And yes, about the Russian cav. But I don't have Russian cav of course I will need a different solution otherwise I will have a game-long threat to the Brest-Minsk rail line, and that isn't good at all. I need to know what would happen if I were to pocket the marshes. What happens to the forces inside when all directions are cut? I'd rather not have a corps cut to pieces trying to eject Ivan from there.

As I have proved already

I sat down tonight to continue, and found that all of my panzer corps in AGN and AGC are more or less out of gas. But this is why I just jump in and give it a go. I was going to add to one of the above posts that this run is probably going to be short, as with most games I often do a short run, learn from it, identify my mistakes and see what I would have done differently with this additional knowledge, then start anew and go from there. I will need to do so again I am afraid. I waste too much fuel. For starters, I have been moving my airbases forward. Uses fuel. I have a good deal of support units attached to my panzers. More fuel. I have moved all of my headquarters forward. More fuel.

I'm not sure where are the best places to build rail lines, and if I should switch a FDB to a different artery, so that two are working on the same one. Not sure how that might work since they need to be adjacent to a repaired rail hex. But I'm sure I've seen players advocate this. Maybe a second FDB can start working next to a hex that is going to flip next turn (yellow)? The line to Riga and then east along the Baltic toward Leningrad is obvious. Another line from Brest-Litovsk to Minsk and then Smolensk also seems obvious. The rest I just don't know. Simply starting them going from their first-turn locations may not be the best way to go about it. Further, I'm not taking full advantage of my HQ's ability to send construction battalions. I'm sure there's a strategy here as well. My railheads are just too far behind the center thrust.

I have saved each turn, so I think some more logistical training is in order, and then maybe I can go back one turn and do things a little differently. I sure would love to force the Dnepr on turn 2. If I can get two FDBs on the Brest-Minsk line that would likely solve the issue I ran in to here.

Maybe I should try the Road to Smolensk scenario. It gives you 10 turns to win, and I'm sitting here at the Dnepr on turn 3. Maybe I am expecting too much. Maybe I just need to sit tight and let the rails and infantry catch up and that my progress is good. I have little reference for milestones. Aside from PB capturing Smolensk at the same point I am stuck at the river out of fuel

Time to crack the manual again I think.

Ya know how I mentioned earlier in the thread how I intended to learn the game in modules? Well, my first go at the grand campaign revealed some of my flaws. So tonight instead of playing I researched two more things. More optimum rail repair route strategies, and support units. If I can improve these it will make a big difference.

I said in the last post that the Brest-Litovsk rail line seemed obvious, but it isn't, I don't think. It's not only too long to build, but vulnerable to those Russian units I don't know how to deal with in the Pipyat marshes. Since the Baltic region gets the rail repair bonus. I think it would make more sense to build two up there. One to go Riga-Pskov as expected, but a second to work it's way to Polotsk and then turns south to Vitebsk. So it ends up near the landbridge anyway, like the Brest-Misnk line would eventually, but does so much faster. I gotta try that, it makes sense. Since I wouldn't be building the Brest line now, that FDB can be sent south to Romania to help with the push through the Ukraine. It's slow building down there, so another FDB would be useful. You really need lines going to Rostov, Kursk, Kiev et al, so it should pay off I would think.

And then I had another thought. What if instead of making my panzer corp push to Smolensk through Minsk, that I instead sent Hoth's panzergruppe to the north, to pave the way for the Polotsk-Vitebsk rail line. This would outflank the concentration I saw in the first run south of Vitebsk, and it would be better supported by the rail line. Hmmm Or will the AI react to the new axis? I could still send Guderian toward Mogilev to maybe feint that attack, compel the river defense and then hook him across the river near Zhlobin and either to pinch Smolensk from the south, or turn him south (as was done historically) through Gomel and behind Kiev. Hmmm

Strategery!

The second thing I concentrated on was support units. Honestly I wasn't prepared for this sort of micro. I chose to let the AI handle it. But, this is the sort of thing that separates advanced players. I had noticed how my panzer corps were bogged down with support units that they don't need. My combat units don't need to have construction battalions attached for example. They're never in the same place long enough to do anything (or even near a repaired rail hex), and the range at which they can do their duty is dictated by command radius. So I want to assign them all to my Army Group HQs ( and armies I suppose), who can be placed in major hubs and let the ants do their work. Other examples are giving my infantry, or motorized units StuG battalions so they have some anti-armor and long range firepower. Heavy artillery can go with the units making assaults. I don't need them attached to my armor. Pioneers can go with the assaulting infantry and maybe even attach some to the panzer corps. Seems contradictory at first glance, but panzers will have to attack sometimes, and will have to attack across rivers, so some attached pioneers could make a big difference. If I'm assaulting Sevastopol I want Thor and Karl there. Instead of fixed or towed AA units, I can ensure that the panzer units only get the motorized AA. Or add some nebelwerfers as corps reserve where I expect the toughest fights.The scope here, the level of customization is enormous.

Leaving it all to the AI could work out great in some situations, and horribly in others. There's too much left to chance. The main drawbacks are that it's a lot more micro, and costs Admin points, so it's something you'll be doing each turn for a while until you get everything where you want it. And you can add additional time for figuring out in the first place where you actually want or need these support units the most. Even though I said that you can play by using your head and moving counters around, I'm beginning to see that if I want to be a good player I'll need to move beyond that and get my hands dirty. It will make my units more efficient with supply and combat, allowing them to move farther, and fight better and avoiding the drag that units in the wrong places cause.

Perhaps I've been recommending this game too freely, that it's something that anyone would enjoy, regardless of how involved they'd care to be. But maybe that's bad advice.

Dbond,
You are always an excellent read. I see that War in the West will play on XP SP3 (sorry, I have 0 interest in the Ost ). Your thread has sparked my interest. The micro manage and continuing development of troops from success/failure is what I enjoy.

Since you made the thread topic as East and West, I have a few questions before serious consideration of purchasing.

* Is an internet connection required to play single player? Been there, done that. The publisher / developer does not need to know when I play the game.

* Are Matrix games download only? My internet is roughly the speed of dial up and crashes my computer often, so waiting and paying for a hard copy is preferable. They show 33 hours to download at 56K, and with crashes, it will take 6 months if ever.

* Is STEAM required? I have no desire to join STEAM. This would be a deal breaker.

* I see Matrix has an expansion pack of Torch for War in the West. Does Matrix ever do bundle packages? I prefer the British in Africa ( my proffered theater ) , but Torch is close enough. You mentioned that Matrix does holiday sales.

* Is a second retail version required to play PBEM with a friend? I assume yes. Can you play against another human in real time via the internet?

* Can you play against another human in real time via the internet?

On a General note, what is SimHQ's opinion of War between the States? It is cheaper and probably runs better on an older computer. I have a suspicion that it has the grand strategy rewards that I see in Dbond's threads.

Sorry for so many questions, but you have sparked my interest in this product line. I cut my computer teeth on Steel Panthers I-III

YES!
This is the stuff I like, see a need and create a solution and try to assess the risks in the midst of the grand target of reaching Leningrad (used to be Sweden, just saying), Moscow and Stalingrad.

I hear you on the HOI4, been watching hours and hours of lets plays and think you have a good point regarding the AI.

As a vivid Steam "hater" I also look forward to the questions above by Aldo

But I do have 1000 mbit line here so if I need to create somekind if account anyway for them to spy on I can just as well let it be on steam to begin with.
I hate it but I use it but for the love of God - can the prodcers of today just give up with the current account mayhem on every.frigging.title.released? ohffs I hate accounts so frigging much

I can answer some of these questions.

Internet connection is not required, Steam is also not required. Matrix games are basically drm free games. You download the installer, install and play. Matrix also provides a Steam key for some of their games (like for War in the West). So you actually get 2 copies, one drm free and a Steam one. That's pretty cool. Matrix used to sell physical copies but i think they switched to digital delivery only. Maybe someone else with better connection could download it for you and put it on a pendrive.

edit: i see that War in the West actually can be purchased as a hard copy.

In less than a month Holiday sale should start. Usually it lasts till the end of the year. War in the West should be much cheaper then (around 50% off like last year). The DLC also should be cheaper.
IMHO Matrix is an awsome publisher/developer. If you're into wargaming, they have the best offer for PC players. I bought many games in past 8 - 9 years from them and surely will buy many more.

As did I, I might even have mentioned that earlier in this thread?

Hopefully, Cheyenne's post answers some of your questions, as being new to Matrix I don't have the answers. There is no real-time head to head though (unless I'm wrong lol) And again I am not certain, but yes I would say that each PBEM player needs a copy. War in the West is what I was first interested in of course, but I ended up starting with War in the East. I'm equally interested in each theater, so it works for me, plus WitE is about $20 cheaper I believe. I took a look and last year's holiday sale ran from November 22 through January 7. War in the West was marked down to $29.99! It's normally 79.99 so that is a huge savings. And of course you could look for Steam sales too. But if you want a hard copy the Matrix sale should be perfect. Matter of fact I will also grab WitW at that price! There is also some DLC introducing some alternative campaigns (Don to the Danube for example) and scenarios that I will pick up as well.



Then I suspect this game would be right up your alley. Actually I know it is, but the question I think becomes if you want to invest the time. My thinking was that with winter coming I wanted a serious game that I could dive in to, that would challenge me and be one that took time to master. It's exactly that and I'm very glad I decided to give it a go, I can always recognize the finest games by how much I think about them when I am not playing, ya know? Sitting at work but thinking about how I am going to breach a certain river or how I will take Kiev. That's when I know it has it's hooks in me. Selfishly I hope that each of you get in to it so that I can blab about it more on the internet

Another plus! All I needed was a key, and then could download and install. I didn't need to register anywhere.

Happy Birthday old man

Sorry to just jump in here, just trying to help out...

Matrix Games are DRM free so no they don´t track your gameplay or what ever. If you buy from them, you also get a Steam key, so it´s your choice of platform to play on once you buy from them. You can even have two different copies on your HDD as each platform uses a different S/N. All Matrix games come with a launcher, with which you have the option to check for updates with the mentioned launcher. It then connects to the Matrix net and checks for updates. Matrix Games also offers physical copies on CD/DVD which also come with a hard cover or soft copy of the manual, and a download option. But you have to consider were you live as shipping and customs might be expensive for the physical editions.

War in the West has more air warfare so that might be a plus for some.

Here´s a look at the awesome hardcover manual for WitW...



Even if you do decide to just buy the download edition now, you can always buy the physical edition later for a additional cost.

Either way, Matrix Games has a great customer support, so they will be more then happy to help you out with any doubts you can have.

Red

Thanks Oden

Good info Red, thanks.

I kicked off another grand campaign, since I had the day off. My birthday and all you see. I spent hours just setting it up. Burned up most of my admin points reorganizing (mostly reattaching the construction battalions to Army Group HQs, but also getting infantry divisions out of panzer corps, and I seem to be obsessed with making Kluge OKH, so that eats up a few more. There's so much to dig in to.

I still want to send at least part of Hoth's panzergruppe toward Vitebsk to clear the way for the new rail line, but I'm not sure if I can close the Slonim pocket without them, so we'll see. If I don't charge all out to reach Minsk in the first turn I can do it I think. Since this is no longer my only panzer axis in AGC I think I can give up the rush to the Dnepr, since I found out last run that I really will need infantry there anyway, so no need to rush. It doesn't make sense to use my armor to punch through. But if Hoth can loop through Vitebsk and Guderian can get across near Zhlobin I can have a big envelopment behind the river. So I'll go for smaller solutions until the infantry can get there I think. Lots of fun making plans

Now if only I can get my logistics in order.

Happy belated birthday, D!

Oh, didn't notice. Happy B-Day DBond! Many succeses on the Eastern Front

Just to show again why i like Matrix, i just got a coupon from them. 31% off the next purchase for being with Matrix for 9 years. These coupons can be used on already discounted games during holiday sales. That's pretty sweet deal! Will definitely pick 2-3 wargames this year.

So i encourage you Dbond to create an accout on their store, maybe get something this year also. They have the best wargames for PC players, really huge catalog of great games.

Thanks for the birthday wishes!

Cheyenne, thanks for the suggestion, I will do so.

My campaign made good progress yesterday, I feel like I've improved my start, but the truth will bear out over the coming turns. I altered my operational plans a bit and it seems to be paying off. The moves for AGS are still a bit of a mystery to me though. I have a plan, but not sure it's the best one. Again, we will see.

I'll get a report together somewhere along the next couple of turns. In the meantime I thought I would post this shot of the map with the troops removed. Nice map innit? (It's a mod by the way) If anyone is reading this thread, but not certain of some of the locations being mentioned, this could help. It only shows the area of operations of Army Group Center, but that's where most of my discussion has fallen. The start positions are the heavier red dashed line on the western side of the shot.

I still plan to do a report at some point. And it may be spectacular I'm on turn 3 (July 3) and still have a lot of moves to make. But the opportunities before me are exceptional. I still need to execute, and things may change, or not go according to plan. But holy smokes.....

Giving the grand campaign a second run has shown me that the Soviets will make a different set of moves, they aren't reacting in the same way as the first run. Which is great, because it always gives the player a different sort of challenge. It's not simply a matter of learning to solve the same puzzle every time. Not sure what I was expecting exactly, but I did think that their turn 2 would look more or less the same, at least. From there who knows as things are constantly changing. But where before I ran in to a brick wall, this time the seeds have been sown for a spectacular advance. Now to pull it off.

Keep us up-to-date!


Meanwhile, since I am a weak person, I bought both HOI4 and WitE friday lunch and have had a strategic-o-weekend.
From many hours in both I'd say WitE is the better gameplay experience (mostly AI related).

First try WitE was "what the hell is this? God I hate DBond"
Then I tried the Velikie tutorial no one likes but it did open a few eyes for me.
After that I failed nicely a few attempts at Road to Minsk, but not reading this thread would have made it so much worse.

So, thank you for your in-depth writing style DBond


Today I gave a hoot at Road to Leningrad (with Finland involved up north).
And it worked first on first attempt!

Sure, I'm not proficient with HQ units still - even knowing one can assign battalions all over the place and what not it becomes too much of a task for me when the crap hits the fan.
Also, I've read about those partisans and I saw them pop-up now and then a couple of turns into the mayhem but realised I had no idea how to catch them, destroy them or how to counter them at all.

Nevertheless I made it to the outskirts of Leningrad and got fairly intimidated by the sheer number of units in the town.
But since I got this far I just had to keep pounding them with what I had and learned a few things from that too.

To my somewhat surprised enjoyment I did manage to grab 1 hex a turn of this sweet target area and after heavy fighting there I was, in downtown Leningrad.

This will be my spare-time hours for this winter, that's for sure.
(and maybe by spring time I will understand what the hell is going on haha)

You captured Leningrad? First try? That's fantastic, congrats. I have yet to even try it and here you are standing as gubner of Leningrad. Holy smokes. If you can do that in your grand campaign, capture Leningrad in'41 you'll be off to an amazing start. I'm hoping to duplicate your feat shortly, but I can already see the gathering defenders as I approach. Very glad you're giving it a go. Of course I am not much ahead of you, but more than happy to share what I've learned. So any specific questions just fire away. Outstanding

OK, so I started run number 2 of the (260 point) grand campaign. Made three changes to the game options, setting CV at "Better CV Math", taking away the Soviet +1 Combat Bonus and locking the HQ for the Germans. I didn't know what to set it as for the Russians, and maybe it doesn't matter anyway since I am not controlling them. Locking the HQ means the program won't shuffle your supports units around, and since that is the latest addition to my play I want to have full control over where they are and where they go. I spent hours setting the first turn up, making Kluge OKH and Model replaced him at 4th Army. I burned up all my admin point by assigning construction battalions to Army Group and Army HQs. I also transferred several infantry divisions form panzer corps to infantry corps, all the while being careful not to overload any corps HQ. There's little you can do to eliminate the overload on AGC and AGS, but you can fix/prevent it at corps level. With only 30 admin points at the start, this is a process that will take several turns, as you transfer units from HQ to HQ.

I'd love to do a proper AAR, but it's a lot of work, so instead I'll just do some updates. I save at the start and end of every turn, so if anyone wants to know where certain units were, the route they took or the positions they ended the turn in it's not hard for me to get that info. I also apologize in advance for the unedited screens I will use. I'd rather have arrows, and text and colors and suchforth to paint the picture, but these will have to do.

First three turns June 22 to July 3

Army Group Center

I kicked the thing off with the standard double envelopment in AGC's sector. I've had lots of practice, it's the 7th time I've done it now so it went well. I sent Hoth's 3rd Panzergruppe (light green) more to the north than I did in my first run, which is his historical route. The idea was to center this northern thrust on Vitebsk, to hopefully continue on beyond and strike at Smolensk, as well as clear the way for the southernmost of my two rail spurs. I needed one of his panzer corps to help seal the north side of the Slonim pocket. Guderian's 2nd Panzergruppe (light blue) helped seal the Slonim pocket on turn 1, and then pressed on, splitting to take Minsk and heading for the Dnepr crossing at Zhlobin. They were held back a bit to keep them in supply range, so that they could get some during the logistics phase. In the first run they went all the way to the river, but were then out of gas and useless for turn 2. It's only a few hexes in some cases. Every time an HQ unit is moved I next check the supply details for the unit and make sure that HQ is within 25 hexes of a rail head. Movement points also play a part, and in areas with lots of lousy terrain, or during mud and snow, then 25 hexes may not longer be enough. But here in the open spaces of the western Soviet frontier the 25 hex limit works. The closer to the rail head the better of course, but it's smart to always check this every time you move one of your corps HQs. And then ensure all subordinate units take up positions within 5 hexes of that HQ. There will be times when I think the objective is worth the out of supply positions (two of which will soon follow in this AAR!), but on the whole I'll try to stick to this rule of thumb.

At this point I was of course focused on the Russian defense of Smolensk. In run 1, he made a stand, and the line of the Denpr was heavily reinforced. This time the enemy did not get nearly so many units in to position, and at the end of turn 2 my panzer groups sat resupplying around Misnk and west of Vibtesk, I could see the chance of a breakhrough near Orsha. If I could do this, it would allow my armor to run through the landbridge and either take Smolensk, or run the southern half of a pincer to encircle the defenders south of Vitebsk, and hopefully fulfill each of those objectives. Hoth's panzers to the north (Schmidt) would have to punch through Vibtesk, which isn't easy as they aren't ideally suited for this. But I had an two entire panzergruppen and their hour had arrived, As a result of this assessment, I kept the southern of Hoth's panzer corps near Minsk to give extra weight to the attack at Orsha, instead of sending it north to rejoin. I also cashiered the commander and replaced him with Hermann Balck. He is the Germans' best commander of mobile forces that starts without a command. As a Major General though it costs 26 admin points to appoint him to command a corps. That's a heavy price, but I can't resist this sort of move. The combat value of all of the divisions in the panzer corps instantly improved when he arrived. These are the tip of my schwerpunkt and he will put the finest edge on LVII Panzer Corps. Kuntzen was the man dismissed. I plan many more command changes, ruthless as I am, but the admin points keep you honest.

This shot introduces the dashing and capable General Balck, shows some of the positions at the end of turn 2, as well as the weak defense of the upper Dnepr. The Russian would strengthen it during his turn a bit, but it's a far thinner line than in my first grand campaign.



The plan to breach the position on the upper Dnepr worked to perfection. By holding my leading units back a bit to end turn 2 it enabled enough momentum to score a fantastic success on turn 3.




Using the full weight of Schmidt's XXXIX panzer corps we punched through Vitebsk and sealed the northern half of the pocket. Using XXXVII Panzer Corps (Lemelsen) we blew it open at Orsha. The newly installed Balck then lead LVII panzer corps through the breach, sealing the pocket. Schweppenburg's XXIV panzer corps them raced through to to capture Smolensk! It went off so spectacularly that I could now decomit Vietinghoff's XXXXVI panzer corps from this operation and send him south toward Gomel as part of my effort to seal the Priyat marshes and link up with Army Group South. A solid pocket has been formed, but the screenshot shows a glaring mistake I made. I have no unit in Orsha, blocking the railway there. Hopefully the ZoC of the units there will prevent the encircled troops from breaking out here. If the Soviets try to breakout by atttacking from both sides the ring may break. Could be a very bad mistake. I don't want to let this bag o' Ivan escape.

In all this operation far exceeded my expectations by turn 3. To be in Smolensk is a best case scenario. It's a calculated risk to leave these valuable forces in a spot that's out of supply, but I felt it had to be done. Another turn could have seen the Russian reinforce the position along the upper Dnepr in front of Smolensk. I believe these units can pull some supply from the city. But if I can hold the encirclement and keep Smolensk it was certainly worth the gamble. This is the reason all of those tank formations were put in AGC in the first place right?

Army Group North

In the north the singular overriding objective is Leningrad. But there are some key lesser objectives along the way. To take Leningrad not only denies it to the enemy as a population and production base, it gets Finland fully in the war. To have the Finns helping hold the northern part of your front allows you to strengthen other parts of it. Taking Leningrad is therefore the number on thing I want to accomplish in '41. I hope it isn't all, that I can also take Kiev and Rostov, Kharkov and Moscow. Even Sevastopol. But Leningrad is the key for me.

The attack was launched, holes were opened and Hoepner's 4th Panzergruppe was unleashed.AGN has the least armor and this is the only panzer group, which limits our flexibility for mobile operations One panzer corps, the XXXXI under Reinhardt was able to capture Riga on turn 1! Manstein's LVI Panzer Corps was sent toward Pskov. The rail repair teams were put to work and I am trying to take advantage of the lower Baltic zone repair cost by building a line Riga-Novgorod-Leningrad. And another to the south, though Polotsk and on to Vitebsk and Smolensk. All reinforcements from Germany (7 infantry divisions so far) were sent by train to this front, where they detrained and were split up among the various infantry corps, again careful not to overload the command capacity. AGN is the only Army Group that doesn't start seriously overloaded, so these troops were sent here partly for this reason, and also to add weight to the attack on Leningrad.

On turn 2, Manstein was able to capture Pskov, but low on fuel he would have to halt in this position for a turn. Pskov is an important rail hub in this sector so worth the effort. Reinhardt's corps, having taken Riga, then raced along the coast and captured Kallinn on turn 3! and still had the momentum to shuffle up against the defense southwest of Leningrad along the Narva river. A spectacular advance. The Riga rail line will support them and I am hoping to work toward capturing the east shore of Lake Ladoga while the infantry continue to move toward Leningrad. They are still several turns away, as this is quite a distance. In all we were able to take full advantage of the relatively weak Russian defense in this area. Evidence shows they are gathering near Velikiye Luki and this could pose a threat. The infantry continues to arrow northeast and some can be shifted here if necessary.

The screenshot shows Manstein halted in Pskov and Reinhardt standing on the Gulf of Finland! The strength of the defense at Leningrad is formidable, and growing. But they are running out of time to keep doing so.

Sorry, had some dad duties to attend to, and without further ado, the adventures of Army Group South....


Army Group South

The south. Honestly, I really don't know the best way to approach this front. It's complicated, with far-reaching objectives, a mix of German forces and satellites, has the slowest rail repair along with just a single FDB unit, and a terribly overloaded command. It's easy to say I want to take Kiev, Sevastopol, Rostov, Karkhov and Dnepropetrovsk, hereafter known as Dnepro. It's another thing to do it, as this will surely be the front that feels the most stretched, in all directions. The terrain in the Ukraine is wide open, but the enemy, logistics and river crossing after river crossing will test the limits of our ambition.

One immediate complication is much of the force at your disposal in the south begins the game frozen. The Romanians, the Slovakians and the Hungarians are not available and will all join in the coming turns. Some of the German motorized divisions are also frozen. AGS is the largest Army Group, in terms of troops, but still well short of the armored strength of Army Group Center. So how to crack it? I made Kiev the first real target. The plan was to drive behind Lvov, encircling the defenders, then pivot east to cross the Denpr at Cherkassy. If a bridgeghead could be won, the units across would wheel north and follow the right bank of the river to take Kiev from the rear, trapping the defenders I would expect to have gathered in front of the city.

The first move I made was to load the FDB here on to a train, and sent him on a ride to the Romanian border, ultimately to a town called Ugenny to begin construction of the rail spur. This single spur will support the entire AGS, or so I hope!

The attack opened with two infantry corps smashing open the front south of the Pripyat marshes. Kleist's 1st Panzergruppe has three panzer corps, and these were sent through the gap. One cut south past Tarnopol toward the Dnestr river. It could not close the remaining distance to the Romanian border, and the rail line there carried out much of the force defending Lvov. The pocket was closed the following turn, but by then many had escaped encirclement, and seemed to be sent to Zhitomir where the Russian was anchoring his defense, barring the direct path to Kiev. A second panzer corps was sent east to take Rovno, which was done. The third panzer corps went southeast past Tarnopol, then probed east toward Vinnista, capturing the city on turn 2!. The infantry near Lvov was sorted, with some re-assignments to cure corps-level overburdening. I attempted to use them to seal up Lvov, but not much progress really.

By turn 3 the Romanians had entered and breached their front to march on Odessa and protect the right flank of the panzer group. These troops aren't powerful, and seem to move much slower (all horse-drawn?), but they should be sufficient to take Odessa and then on to Nikolaev. Their air corps is also nice to have. With the Lvov pocket now sealed, the infantry set about trying to reduce it. It proved difficult, as the best Russian tank units are deployed in the south, but eventually Lvov was taken and the last few remnants of the forces trapped are being eliminated. I was able to send a few infantry corps east to support the armor, but the majority of it has been mired around Lvov.

The enemy's decision to stand at Zhitomir however was a mistake of the first order. The Russian has obviously underestimated the speed at which blitzkrieg moves. The ability of our panzer formations to cover ground, especially here in the Ukraine, is phenomenal. An amazing opportunity appeared. With some luck, Kleist's tanks could outflank the enemy's main line to the south, and take Kiev almost unopposed, negating the need to cross the Dnepr and accelerating our time table by weeks. The force near Rovno could try to strike at the northern flank of the enemy's line, hopefully preventing large-scale retreat in to the marshes (grrrr) and with good fortune breakthrough to form the northern arm of an encirclement together with the two panzer corps sent to take Kiev. That trap could not be completed yet, but we are laying the foundation. If the units threatened with entrapment don't react immediately, the chance for a tying a huge noose around the bulk of the Red Army in the south beckons.

Like the decision to go for Smolensk, here was a chance to capture a major prize at the earliest opportunity, and potentially ensnare a huge gob of enemy divisions, but would leave these advanced units in an out of supply location. Like Smolensk, I am banking on the ability to draw supplies from the city itself..These units also displaced a number of enemy airfields on their way to Kiev, capturing enormous quantities of fuel, including 31 tons at one particular airfield, so they should still be useful next turn, even out of supply range. The fact that my infantry lags so far behind is a problem, it will be hard to form a solid ring for a few more turns. I doubt the Red Army will sit and wait for it. But if I can take Kiev, and prevent a large migration in the the marshes it will be another spectacular success, though I fear I will have outrun my ability to make it the victory it could be. I love how this game continues to ask questions, and the player needs to continually adapt to changing events, threatening situations and golden opportunities.

Maximum momentum of attacks is best achieved by selecting from the units you are committing to the operation, the ones furthest from the point of attack to launch it. Doing so allows those units with decreasing MPs to force the front, and those with the most MPs to plunge through the breach. So that's what I did here too. Jumping off from positions near Vinnista, I broke through the weaker defenses south of the enemy's main line, and using both of the southern two panzer corps, Mackensen's III Panzer Corps and Kempf's XXXXVIII, outflanked the enemy's main effort and we drove straight in to Kiev, routing the relatively small force defending the city, and Kiev was captured! Wietersheim's XIV Panzer Corps moved to strike the northern end of the enemy's line along the southern boundary of the Pripyat marshes, but no breakthrough was possible by the end of turn 3. If these two forces can link up next turn, and if some additional help from the infantry arrives we could see a huge haul of prisoners. I doubt though my ability to do this in time. We will see.


In all a smashing success in the south. My infantry is too far behind, and we will soon outrun our rail lines. But to have Kiev in our hands already is awesome. To the east!


Here you see Kiev in our hands and the armor at the north edge. The mass of our infantry is still around Lvov however.





Here are the ground losses for both sides through July 3rd. The Russian has lost almost three quarters of a million men and 5100 tanks. I don't show it, but he has lost 4400 aircraft to our 70 or so. Additional encirclements promise another big haul if things break our way.






And here is the 'strategic view', showing the depths of our advances. All of our units appear as white and the Russian in gold. This seems a solid start

Keep this up. IT's fun to read!!!

Thanks Airdrop. Appreciate it. Going to get started on turn 4 shortly. I am really enjoying this game. Thanks for your help.

Now let's see if we can bag any more prisoners.

AGS seems a massive undertaking, I tried one of the "Road to" for AGS and got slapped in the face by the flrst wall of defenders even - this one is way different than AGC and AGN already from first turn and will be through the campaign with its vast distances.

Thanks for the extensive AAR style, I know they take considerable time to arrange too trying to describe so many events into something compact

Do you notice a difference having the HQ's locked?

Keen eye, yes. I said before that the south is like a blank canvas. It's wide open and there are many ways to approach it. The objectives pick themselves I think, but how you move your massive force is left to the imagination.



Thanks for saying so. Yes, these do take quite a bit of time, as you well know from your excellent AARs. I love talking about this stuff, and try to write about the sorts of things I would like to read myself. Comments like yours and Airdrop's go a,long way toward making me feel like it's worth it, and that others might be enjoying it. So thanks Oden.



Yes, though the only effect is to prevent the program from moving your support units around. With HQ locked, they stay where they are until you make a change.

One last question, not being used to all this HQ management
I usually keep HQ and Divs/Corps within 5 hexes, all good so far, but came to think this morning - I do move the combat units way off and throw them into battle and my "last" move is moving up the HQ to put all combat units in "blue" again.
Am I doing it all wrong, will they have to battle without HQ support battalions (it never shows really what support HQ gives in each fight, at least what I think)?
If so I guess assigning support to each combat unit would make a diff for my current style.
Else I need to move all units up and bring the HQ along before doing the combat stuff again, can be tedious with motorized units having pretty long legs.

Yes, you want to have the HQ within the five hexes for combat. So what I do is I move the first combat unit(s) up against the enemy unit I wish to attack Then the HQ gets moved closer to get within five hexes. HQs always have plenty of movement points to cover this for each of the divisions within the corps, so it doesn't have to be the HQ's final position, and can be exposed and uncovered since the enemy cannot move nor attack during my turn. Then the attack is made. This is important because you want the chance to have corps-level support units available for the attack, plus the attacking unit will benefit from the command ratings of the HQ.

So it's almost always move the combat unit first, then the HQ within range, then attack. Repeat through the entire corps with the ultimate goal of having all units end the turn in positions within five hexes of the HQ.

I'm hoping to do a report, maybe tonight. Thing is I am having so much fun orchestrating this invasion I don't feel inclined to stop and conjure up a report. I'm on turn 8 now, first week of August. Things are going well, but I'll save the details for the report I might get around to haha.

When I first got in to this game I wondered how I'd feel about the fact that everything must be moved one at a time. There are a hell of a lot of counters on the map. Headquarters, security units, railroad repair, cavalry brigades, panzer corps, infantry corps, airfields and more and for six nations with Germany, Finland, Italy, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia all under my control. With so much to consider, and so much to do, a typical turn is taking me around 3 hours to complete.

But you know what? I've really embraced the whole thing. Envisioning operations and then (hopefully!) carrying them out, all the while reacting to changing events, is a tremendously good time. What are my objectives? What route(s) should I take? What forces will I commit? How will I supply them? Where will I station my security units? Am I able to counter partisans, wherever they may appear? Where am I vulnerable? Where is the enemy weak? Where should my rails run? How should I distribute my support units? Do I give that StuG battalion to an infantry division, an armored division or a motorized division? Are there any broken command links? Any danger of isolation? Which squadrons will I assign as night fighters? Where will my heaviest artillery have the most telling effect?

And on top of actually making plans and executing them, there is a ton of information to be pored over. What new units have arrived? Which units are leaving for other fronts? How will I fill the gap? Should I replaced any commanders, and with who? Which units should I prioritize for resupply? Which need a rest? Where the hell did all of those enemy rifle divisions come from?!

It's the sort of mental obstacle course that I really get in to. To get in to a game like this you need to push through that early "what the hell am I supposed to do" phase that most good games like this throw at you. Folks will either give up, or saddle up and get on with it. This is an amazing war game, and very rewarding for those who persist with it. Or that's how I see it.

I still have a lot to learn, I've not mastered it as some mechanics remain unclear to me, and there are surely things I could or should be doing that I'm not even aware of. Like I saw in one report that four new squadrons have arrived in National Reserve. What should I do with them? And how would I do it? This game is one hell of a big onion.

I'm glad you are liking it. This is probably my favorite war game of all time just barely above War in the Pacific from matrix.

Thanks Airdrop! It really is an epic game. And aside from the compelling gameplay, it's amazing to me what two weeks of playing have meant to me in terms of understanding the war in the east. I'm re-reading Clark's Barbarossa The Russian-German Conflict 1941-45, and just playing the game and studying the map has enabled me to picture battles and movement with a much higher degree of clarity. I also just finished reading Bidermann's In Deadly Combat for the umpteenth time, but for the first time I can actually follow events geographically. I can 'see' it all so much better. When his 132nd Infanterie Division arrived as a replacement unit a few weeks in I noticed, and while I considered sending it on it's historic route, I instead found the conditions at the front demanded it go elsewhere.

(Did I already say all of this? I feel like I did, so sorry if I'm repeating myself. Gettin' old, you see)

Where's my man Cheyenne? I think when I wrote something earlier about how I wasn't prepared for this level of micro that he said to himself, neither am I!

I'd love to discuss operations with others. I joined the official boards but I'd rather talk to the folks here at SimHQ.

I have both comments and questions on that other WitE AAR thread but it looks so good I dare not post in it
Can we use this for comments on the big AAR thread or is it OK to post in that one?
(I almost feel it should be locked for DBond only to update )

Please feel free to post in that thread, especially if directly related, but even if not. Either thread is fine of course.

Just found out what "mud" means ingame.
Holy Batman - all units down to 1 ATK value and they can barely move.

Wait, you're in October already? What the hell?

November 20 now
But in all honesty, I don't think I play to the same detail you do and I have to admit it shows in my results, but as long as I'm having fun!

Failed most encirclements but got a good one between Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk - and then "Mud" happened so I couldn't finish them off!
But as Snow arrived I have now cleaned the pocket with no regret.

Leningrad is.. I don't have words for it, was so easy last time and now I have been fighting a huge block of enemy stacks(!) between Novgorod-Leningrad-Narva ever since I got up here.

This game is dangerous for ones weekend hours - I started yesterday just after dinner and as I looked up again I noticed time was past midnight at 2 am.
It's really hard to stop once you get going, always just one more opportunity or some unit needs saving.

Holy Smokes, November! I'm still in August

Actually this is good as maybe any reports you make will give me insight for what I might expect. How's your progress? You must be enjoying the game to have gone so far in.

Now mid December snow is heavy and while units can move fairly freely they have some 25% CV from normal so I'm mostly chasing partisan units popping up every.frigging.week and working hard on the rail conversion.
One or two fine-adjustments to airforce locations too.

I've had full strength wintertime but maybe the game gives a random penalty based on how cold it actually is the given week?

Leningrad: 1 hex left to city walls but with my units current CV I will just stay foot.
Moscow: I can see it but it feels so far away
Stalingrad: haha yeah right, I got stuck trying to enter Crimea and still hanging outside the two doors allowing entrance - I blame snow and mud (actually I arrived way too late due to my uselessness at encirclement warfare)

I had a good opportunity for another pocket but I noticed the AI understands the situation and they bloody moved out of there before I could have my panzers push through to close it.
Whoever wrote the AI for this should have a medal.


Edit:
And now on 1st January 1942 I have Blizzard and Ice 10 on the weather map
Previous turn, 25th Dec 41, the Soviets hit me along the whole front line pushing me back a hex or 3 and they bombed everywhere - took quite some time to finish all their actions.
We will see what's left of my Axis forces come spring time.

The enemy looks strong. That's something I am fearing, that even though the enemy is off balance still they will recover at some point. How many casualties have you caused? Do you have any screens of the situation at Leningrad before your assault?

About the AI, quite right, although I see the opposite too. When I first came to Smolensk and was nearing Leningrad, the enemy had gathered in the center of these moves, just east of Pskov.. This mass could have been pocketed easily in their position. But as soon as the first arms of the pincers were started, that entire mass of enemy pulled back and prevented it. Cancelling the operation, I moved further on and those crafty bastages reoccupied the former positions, but now I hadn't the strength there to do anything about it as I'd moved down the road.

What I mean by I have seen the opposite is that it seems the AI fails to properly guard it's cities in some cases. Perhaps there are good reasons for it, and really they are still quite disorganzied south of Moscow, so perhaps they just don't have the forces there to build a proper defense.

As to the Crimea, it's a source of constant consideration and concern. I don't know what it will take to capture and I am of two minds about how to approach it, how many, and which, troops I should commit. To remove that rock from my wave would be really good, and any forces there can be put in the main line.

How are you using your satellites? Do they hold a continuous line anywhere? Or do you have them spread out among German forces in the line? I'm reluctant to give them any length of the line, but in the south there is so much to cover.

Ooops, posted the report in the wrong thread But the attachments are here, so not deleted.

Hey Oden, another question to go with those above.... I noticed in the withdrawal schedule that many of the Finnish units are set to depart on October 23. Did that happen in your game? I wasn't expecting that, as I am counting on them to hold my left wing.

The Leningrad situation is heating up, and I'll show what happened in my next report.

The Rumanians are pretty good so I actually have them as base force down south with Hungarians and Italians "supporting" them and a handful divisions of Germans where needed.
Slovakians are swift and pretty good so I have them mixed up around Dnepropetrovsk with the main force of Germans.

But, I haven't really struck any luck and had to make a "tactical move" back from Crimea halvway to Odessa and the Blizzard level 10 just give me any room to improve the situation.

I had a few Finns withrawn but they still cover the front very well and with the massive defensive CV they show I'm not worried at all (for the moment)

I've lost the control around north AGS and all AGC with AGN pretty well dug in.
Situation doesn't look good and I can only hope for spring time and a load of 1942 reinforcements.

I really think I am now suffering from my initial failures at encirclements and/or the fact I haven't pushed far enough removing Soviet resources.
Hopefully, with your current results, you will fare better

Now I need to go read your latest AAR!

Thanks Oden. How many Russian casualties were there in '41? I'm on course to hit that 4 million figure I mentioned somewhere, and hoping it causes the Russian to have difficulty mounting an effective counter offensive.

I have some 4 million Soviets but also just over 1 million Axis which I not sure the Axis can survive.

What do you mean 1 million Axis? That the size of your army? You must mean something else. Allies?

Oh maybe that's what's left after the winter?

Is the 4 million Soviets their current strength or the number of '41 casualties?

Dead.
They're all dead, poor souls.
Thats for putting me in command, silly Germans

I see that's 1 million Axis casualties. Actually that might not be so bad, all things considered. That test is coming for me shortly (now in mid-September). Did you build any fortifications in preparation?

Sorry, I have a million questions and I am only asking a small fraction. If and when Leningrad falls I will have reached all of my 1941 goals and my attention is swiftly turning to how to deal with mud and snow.

No fortifications in aplanned mode but as I made my way through seriously heavy fighting up north from Novgorod towards southern beaches of Ladoga I started to cram out fortifications in each hex slong that river as I noticed how the Red Army grew stronger and stronger - I had 500 admin points so I could spam all I needed.
Guess I should learn more how to use the admin points, feels like I should feel short of them when doing it right.

Oh and Siberians!

I've been spending them quite liberally, some on leaders, some on unit transfers but the vast majority on HQBUs. I figure the cost to my motorpool is offset somewhat by the fact these encirclement battles net a good number of trucks to replace them. Not sure if it's actually true, but that's how I reconcile the cost. I'd reckon you'd always want to keep a bit of a surplus of admin points on hand for HQBUs so they can be used right when you need them. So maybe around 90 as a reserve so you could do two panzer corps in a pinch.

Someone put up a War in the West AAR. KThxBye

Please?

Seriously. That would be great.

I will once I receive the boxed version. The game is too large for my slow internet. and I will also need a bit to learn the GUI.

Isn't it only like 850 MB?

And an AAR would be great, I'd love to see how a game of WitW plays out. I havven't purchased it yet, but will before the sale is out. I'm actually playing a second run of WitE's grand campaign, I want to see if I can do better with all I've learned.

If you do an AAR Aldo, that would be awesome and I didn't expect anyone to actually say they'd do it

AARs on this site are a dying breed but nothing shows the nuts and bolts quite as well.

I have not seen more then 20K download speeds since I told Comcast to kissoff and switched to the only alternative I have other then satellite. I am at the end of a dead end street. We are the only block that that does not have ATT U verse.

If I want to watch something on Youtube, I have to start buffering twice as long as the video in hopes it will play. I also have and XP operating system that I have ripped the guts from it as viruses have attacked it over the years. If I could find where I hid my VS6 disk #1 then I would do a reinstall of the OS, but I am not willing to loose my legal version of VS6 Enterprise edition to have a stable OS.

I doubt I can do as nice of an AAR as you do, but I will try. I am a total knob to the W(it), so I will srate with a basic GUI impression.

You've mentioned your situation before, but 20k! That's like 2001 speed

No worries, I'd just be happy to see how a campaign plays out. If you do it that's great. I suspect I will be playing WitW before the year is out. I am replaying the WitE grand campaign 'cause I want another shot at it lol. Then I'll try the West. Too bad it doesn't start in '39, that would be seriously epic.

Hi DBond like the AAR’s (if I haven’t already mentioned). Thanks for the effort you put in them.

Curious how long it takes you to do on typical round and do you know if PBEM used much?

The short answer is between 10 minutes and 3 hours. Early turns take a long time, for me anyway, especially the first turn. There's plenty to do

During mud season neither side does anything and the turns go by fast. Most turns are somewhere in the middle, probably an hour or so.

PBEM is popular yes, judging by the posts at the Matrix boards. There is a small active base there, and they post detailed AARs of their matchups. Those AARs have given me a lot of insight of operational possibilities.

It is that painfully slow, but I could download if the download can be restarted.

If I start a download with the key and my computer crashes, can I pick up where the download left off? If I can, I will give it a try. If I can not, it will be a futile effort.

Between my CAD program and the internet, It was more then a dozen reboots today as I played on the computer when I should have been working on a GL1000. winter sux, it's cold out there.

Sorry, don't know if an interrupted download would resume. Hope it works!

"Hope it works!"
I have no interest in hoping. I had to install a win98 wireless card on this XP machine when the onboard Ethernet port burned out. If the port is pinged I crash. If it is left alone I can spend days on the internet. I know, it sounds like aluminum hat stuff. No worries, I prefer aluminum boxers :P.

I have had to reboot 3 times while trying to create a PM for Jelly of EAW. I will wait for the boxed editions and see if I can help EAW in the interim. If someone says I can restart a crashed download of the keys, then I will try.

Evidently it wouldn't resume unless you use a manager, see this link

http://www.matrixgames.com/support/faq.asp?id=11

will do, but I am busy with ATV repairs this weekend.

So I'm on turn 15 (mid-October) of my second grand campaign. One downside to a game like this potentially is a lack of replayability. This would be because you always start with the same units in the same starting positions and against the same enemy on the same map. With all of that never changing, the only thing that can keep the game interesting is unpredictable AI. If the AI always did the same thing, it would get boring once you unlocked the patterns. Take Vyazma and Orel and the enemy falls back on a new line at Tula. Every time. It would become sort of like painting by numbers and it would be possible to fashion a 'perfect' plan that accounts for exactly how the enemy reacts.

But what I've found is is that the enemy AI is not following a script. I mean I suppose they are in a general sense. But the second run in the campaign has revealed a wildly different AI than the first. And even though I feel I've played better, I'm not doing as well. I still haven't taken Moscow, and maybe I won't in 1941. The enemy there is strong and tenacious. The defense of Leningrad was not as strong, but that too has yet to fall, though it should within a few turns.

Only in the south have things more or less gone the same way as the initial run, and actually I've made a deeper advance.

The main difference between the two runs is that this time I have failed to capture as many enemy as the first one. In the first run I had 4.2 million enemy casualties by turn 18. This time I am at 3 million on turn 15. There will be more from the siege of Leningrad, but not another 1.2 million. The AI has done a better job of recognizing and avoiding encirclements and I've bagged fewer. This is important because in order to stand a good chance of success in 1942 the German player needs to take as many enemy off the map as possible in 1941. I still have time, but to me it's interesting that despite the experience I gained in the first run, and despite feeling I have played better, that the results are not as good. And that's awesome, making the second campaign a much different experience, and just as challenging or even a little more so.

Boxed version of War in the West arrived today. It took all of today to determine a seldom used DVD drive and AVAST AV were causing all of the installation problems I was having.

I need to repeat myself. The "boxed" version of War in the West comes with an outstanding, hard bound, 300 page, large print manual.

I have a number of tutorials to watch before starting a AAR, but I will include a pic of what I received. serial numbers and order information will be redacted from the DVDs

Still playing War in the East. Have made it to July 1942 in my second grand campaign. As mentioned things haven't gone as well, especially in terms of losses (taken and inflicted), but it still goes well. I have launched my own version of Case Blue (with too few forces I might add).

Leningrad was taken in October of 1941 and Moscow finally fell on the very last turn in '41. In the south things went even better, but still I moved only as far as the upper Don and Donets bend.

In the north there is a huge enemy salient that I am using all of four panzer corps to try and cut off. It is quite difficult.

This game is something else really. A massive game with so much to consider, so many decisions to make. So many possible courses to be taken.

I could pick a few faults. One thing I struggle with is the strict conformity to history on the German side. As an example, I cannot create new headquarters. There have been many times where I wished to create a new Corps or Army HQ, as it would solve administrative and command capacity headaches, but it cannot be done. Fair enough you might say if that sort of historical authenticity is what the devs are going for. But the Russian player can create units at will, so then it doesn't stand up as this restriction only affects the Axis.

One of the things that appeals to me is the fact that I can play Halder, devise my own plans, and avoid the mistakes that befell the German army in the war (and make my own instead!). But this alternate history is limited to operational moves alone. I have no control over say more tanks at the cost of infantry or artillery for example. I cannot recognize that the war will not end in 1941 and do anything to prepare for the winter, such as requisitioning winter clothing (at the cost of supply or reinforcement possibly)

I wish for more setup latitude. It would be great if there were a mode to allow the player complete freedom in the setup stage, before the first turn. In many games there would be a mod to allow a blank slate on the first turn, but I've seen nothing like it.

One more thing I want to mention...logistics. It is marvelous in War in the East. Brilliant. Bloody brilliant mate Due to the game's scale, everything is abstracted to a degree (but still with mindbending detail), but the supply mechanic is the best I've seen in any game. The manner in which War in the East presents the player with the mounting issue of supply as the spearheads range away from the railheads, and dealing with the effects of terrain, of weather, and partisans, and enemy action upon these supply routes is a thing of beauty.

I am a bit overwhelmed with the transition from tactical (SP1&2 + CMBO& CMAK) to strategic. I watched all the tutorials for War of the States and War in the west. I think the video turorials for War in the West assume you have mastered War in the East.

I decided to learn the game mechanics with War of the States. I decided to play as the South on easy. After a week's worth of free time, I finally managed to play more then the first turn. I am still lost with depots and how many points are available. This will transfer to logistics in WotW. But what I have not figure out is how to attack.. I have set up superior forces in the west, but the game will not allow me to move into adjecent areas to a fort. the printed manual is so small with such fine print that I can only read it with stronger readers or a magnifying glass.

I have figured out WotS production, yeha.

I am truly intrigued by the air phase of WitW so I think I will transition to that soon.

I felt that a little bit too. These games take time to master, just stick with it.

The 'huge enemy salient' I mentioned was finally encircled last night. I took a screenshot, I should have posted it. I still haven't eliminated it, but by the end I expect to have taken more than 500,000 prisoners from this pocket alone. People talk of the disaster at Stalingrad, and it was, no mistake. But that was 250,000 men. This is over 500,000, That's gotta hurt.

At the end of June '42 I had weathered the winter and the Russian counteroffensive well enough. Heavy casualties of course, that first winter it's unavoidable. As the thaw came to an end and the summer campaigning season arrived I was sort of in an operational funk. The huge enemy salient was in the north, in the worst possible place really since the terrain is so lousy. Swamps and forests. Despite having three infantry armies here (16th & 18th plus the Finns) there was just no way I would be able to crack it. It would be impossible to run a ring with foot soldiers. The only solution was armor and motorized units. But the terrain is so bad for this. If this mass had been in the Ukraine it would have been a far easier proposition.

And if I commit the necessary armor to eliminating this salient, that would leave little for operations elsewhere. But it had to be done. We had swept east from Moscow as soon as the ground dried and took the same two cities that I did to win the first run, Yaroslavl and Ivanovo. Armor was also committed to the salient. With 1st panzer in the Donets bend at the southern end of the line, this left no armor at all from the Oka River all the way to Rostov. All of the grand sweeping plans I had envisioned over the winter months, of panzers roaming free far behind the enemy lines all along the front were no longer possible. The enemy, through his commitment to the north, had scuppered my plans to blitzkrieg once again.

In addition, I had installed too light a screen with the Finns at the base of the isthmus that is not Karelian, the one east of Ladoga, what is it's name? The Russian took advantage and was pressing armor and cavalry through the one-hex wide gaps in the Finnish lines.A crisis was mounting. If they broke through they could knock Finland out of the war, and that would be a disaster.

Then the third week in July happened. The sort of turn that dramatically alters the state of affairs.

In this turn we managed to close the ring on the salient, took Gorky further east from Moscow (more on this city in a moment) and launched our own Case Blue, thrusting 1st Panzer out of Rostov due south taking Krasnodar and Novorossiysk and reached the Black Sea! This thrust compelled the enemy to evacuate the Crimea (aside from Sevastopol) and the Romanians poured in without a shot fired at the entrances where they had been sitting for six months.

The pocket in the north was really big, more than 500,000 as mentioned. That's 1/7 of the entire Russian army at this point, plus hundreds of tanks. This success will drastically alter the picture on the northern end of the front. The Case Blue thrust from Rostov adds another 400 miles to the front, which is beyond my ability to properly form a line, but the enemy has the same problem, and had to thin his line elsewhere to form a new one to contain 1st Panzer. Rostov is no longer vulnerable and the operation straightened the line, and eliminated the threat to our right flank out of the Crimea and the Kuban regions.A quite dramatic turn of events.

About Gorky..... So after having taken Yaroslavl and Ivanovo, I saw the city of Gorky lying about 150 miles further to the east. I'm playing with Fog of War in this run, so couldn't be certain, but I saw little in the way of an effective barrier. If I could break through the line, my tanks might just reach the city. I became obsessed with the idea because when shifting to the production mode I saw that Gorky was jammed with production, possibly some that managed to be pulled out of Moscow. There were three fighter factories (La-5) and at least four tank factories, an armored car factory and lots more. Taking this city before it could be evacuated would deal a serious blow to the enemy's ability to replenish losses. And so it was, that 3rd Panzer took this city and with it all of this production!

So in one turn we had ripped open the southern front, captured massive amounts of production, and trapped a half-million soldiers in an uber kessel. The prospects look brighter indeed

Actually, the Case Blue action moving south out of Rostov added 200 miles to the front, not 400.

I will probably post a couple of screens showing the northern pocket and subsequent operation that continued on to trap the tanks and cav attempting to break through the Finns. It was a perfect confluence of events, that in the end eliminated nearly 900,000 troops and over 1000 tanks. The big pocket ended up having over 700,000 in it. Maybe I will attempt to edit the screenshots and actually illustrate what happened.

Through the winter I envisioned panzer spearheads ranging out over the steppes of central Russia during the summer, capturing Stalingrad and the Volga. Instead I have been involved in the far less glamorous operations in the forests and swamps of the north. But that's where the enemy was, where he was strongest, and these factors dictated where our blows would fall. It doesn't matter where I am eliminating enemy formations, as long as they are gone. The one real drawback to these actions is that perhaps fewer cities are being taken, and those are all that earn points towards victory. Because of this, it does not appear I can win it in 1942, and another winter looms. Fortunately, the harsh effects of the first winter are removed for the rest.

It's nearly September of '42 and it's time to start thinking of a winter line. Time remains for more gains, but 1942 looks like it will fall short of my geographic goals, but exceed those of eliminating enemy units. We caused 4 million losses in 1941, and I didn't think that we could match that in 1942, with the enemy stronger, better positioned and with better equipment, not to mentioned his ability to form armor, cav and infantry corps now. But we've already reached 8 million enemy casualties, and that will grow through the remaining three months of 1942. In addition to those troops, we have destroyed or captured over 25,000 armored vehicles! By contrast, we have lost less than 3,500 (infantry losses 1,400,000).

So in late August 1942 we hold an infantry advantage of over one million men, a 6 to 4 advantage in armor and even guns are about even. Only in aircraft strength does the Russian hold an advantage, about 2 to 1.

The losses he took in 1941 hurt him, but they were rather easily replaced due to the Russian game mechanics. But in 1942 the cost to the Russian increases, and these 1942 losses (along with the captured and displaced production) hurt him much more. It's been a highly successful campaign, but I can't help but think we haven't advanced far enough, haven't taken enough victory points. I am banking on the fact that the massive losses they have taken in 1942 will render them unable to resist our 1943 offensives, but that's thinking a little too far ahead. Much work remains before that point.

Not sure anyone cares too much about what is going on in my campaign, and that's to be expected. Too bad too that Oden lost his interest and Cheyenne's never took off, as I had hoped to be discussing the finer points of this game with the folks here. But it is a massive, complex eight-year old game and I realize not the sort of thing that most gamers will be interested in. Shame that, because it is excellent.

After looking at the screens I realized that what happened is sort of self evident, and that a couple of arrows wouldn't really be necessary

By late July, 1942, a huge salient east of Leningrad had been permitted to form, and something had to be done. The advance of Army Group Center to well east of Moscow had opened a very long left flank. AGC kept moving forward, while AGN was stuck at Leningrad, so the flank continued to lengthen, requiring more and more troops to defend it. The problem was this enemy force was not only massive, but in the sort of terrain that restricts any sort of offensive movement. Numerous rivers, heavy forests and swampland drastically reduces movement and hands a number of advantages to the defender. To attempt to seal off and pocket some of this mass was risky. But what choice did I have? I kept pressing forward in the center, thinking at some point it would unhinge the enemy's northern front, compel them to pull back as they became increasingly vulnerable to entrapment. But they not only stayed in place, but continued to pour more troops in to the region. Not only that, but they committed strong cav and armor formations to the extreme northern wing, attempting to take advantage of my poor disposition of the Finns.and had made partial penetration through the gaps. A crisis was mounting. If they succeeded in a true breakthrough it would outflank our entire operation and possibly knock Finland out of the war if they moved far enough.

A second problem was that forcing a ring would take a long time. I'd be fighting the terrain as well as the enemy in an attempt to dislodge him, and combined with the closely packed ZoCs would mean it would take a number of turns to pull off. In the early stages the enemy would have ample opportunity to pull back and out of it. At some point though, the terrain would work against them as their movement is restricted too.

A third problem was this was high summer, of 1942. A time when panzer spearheads should be taking advantage of the good weather and launching another series of encirclement battles ever deeper in to the Russian heartland. Committing substantial armor assets in to the swamps of northwestern Russia means they aren't ranging across the steppes astride the Don. But a bag o' Ivan is a bag o' Ivan regardless of where it occurs. The fact remains though that a victory in the game comes from taking cities, not soldiers. Since the start of the game though my main objective has been to eliminate the enemy. And here was a fantastic opportunity to bag a big bunch of 'em.

Using three panzer corps, both from 4th Panzer and one from 3rd Panzer, we struck north, from positions along the upper Volga southeast of the Rybinsk resevoir, a town called Sonkovo, with the objective of reaching and cutting the only rail that served the enemy on this sector of the front, a point 60 miles west of Cherepovets (6 hexes), using the river and marshland as a barrier and boundary to the east of the penetration. Upon reaching the rail line, the attack wheeled to the west where it made contact with 18th Army, sealing a huge enemy force in a pocket. The enemy would bash their heads against it for a few turns, but my encircling units held and 16th and 18th Armies would then pound it down from the west. It took a month to reduce it and eliminate the enemy units in the kessel.

Here you see this pocket. Unfortunately it does not show the area directly to the north where another strong force of cav and armor is pushing through the Finns. Would the Russian recognize the threat to this attack from the encirclement happening to the south?






Yes, he did in fact see it. And attempted to withdraw. But he had stuck his head too far in the noose. The ZoC of the Finnish units and the lousy terrain prevented him from extricating these valuable formations. He pulled back a couple of hexes, but was then set upon from the rear by the panzer corps that had just sealed the first pocket. These units had continued on to punch north and trapped the enemy against the Finns. This shot shows this action, along with what remains of the first pocket to the south three weeks (turns) since the first screenshot.





In all, roughly 900,000 enemy were trapped, along with over 1000 tanks. The enemy would lose a number of valuable cavalry and armor corps. With the closing of these pockets, AGC's flank was reduced, but the enemy remained in the marshes, and we failed to force a strategic withdrawal from the region. Still, it was a massive haul and eliminated any serious threat toward Leningrad and the Finns. Prior to the operation, troop strength for both sides was about even, at roughly 4 million per side. After, we held an advantage of about one million men. It was a smashing success that not only caused a massive shift in force ratio, but released a number of my infantry corps to continue to the east. Shortly after, AGC made another leap, all the way to Kazan!. where it overran many of the enemy's aircraft factories.

My prediction that the war would last in to 1943 proved pessimistic, as I stepped up the operational pace after those battles in the northwest. With mud season fast approaching I got some panzers rolling and with the fall of the city of Kuybyshev 290 points were reached and with it a decisive automatic victory on October 1st 1942. Very happy with that, with the way the campaign turned out. Needing the additional 30 victory points meant a proper offensive season in 1942 was required. Absolutely stellar game this is, I had a blast.

Kuybyshev is located 1040 miles from the starting point at Brest Litovsk, and was the furthest point east we reached. Kazan was also taken to the north and was just about as far. So we advanced the first 500 miles in five weeks (with the fall of Smolensk), and the next 500 in fourteen months

This was a lot of fun. I did a lot of things differently from the first run, and in some way did even worse than the first time. But overall I think I played better, knowing quite a bit more now.

In the end the Russian lost 8.7 million men, plus almost 28,000 armored vehicles. We lost nearly 1.6 million men and 4,000 armored vehicles. Aircraft was 24,000 to 4,000, This time I was much more aware of enemy factories and production and we captured quite a bit of it, especially T-34 factories. But right through the end the Russian kept churning out gobs of planes and tanks. It was only in manpower that the war truly hurt him. By the summer of 1942 he had seemingly run dry of men. By the end only 2.7 million in all, and could no longer cover his losses. So it means that it's really difficult to break the Russian through the denial of production. It's only by destroying armies in the field, and taking manpower centers that the German can really get the upper hand. I've failed in each run to come anywhere near smashing the Red Air Force, let alone reach anything near parity,.

Now I'm not sure what to do. I'm curious about the Russian side, but it seems like it is much more involved than even the German side, and that's a massive undertaking in itself. Maybe I'll go get War in the West. For some reason I have been looking forward to sacking Monty.

Edit: Bought War in the West from the Matrix sale. Allies or Axis.....

Curious about the Russian side....

That's the sort of thing that can make time disappear. After finishing the second German grand campaign, I spent a couple of days in gaming limbo. I wanted to see what it was like to play War in the East as the Russians. But I had trouble getting started. Not only did I not know what to do exactly, I also realized the massive scale of the undertaking. The German side is big enough, but the Soviet side is on another level, and this heavy load kept me from actually getting started. There are far more units (eventually), far more organizing, strategic movement, administration and on and on. But the challenge of it all was like a flame to a moth. Having seen what the Germans were capable of, how they could rip the Russians apart when the commander takes a non-historical tack, I was really curious of how I might do. But this is a complex game, and I had zero clue about Russian mechanics. What should I do? I had an overall grand strategy, but no idea how to do it within the context of this game.

After a couple of days of browsing the Steam sale and reading the Decisive Campaigns:Barbarossa manual, I had failed to shake the nagging desire to replace Stalin and see if I could do a better job. I didn't take screens since I planned no AAR, but I want to give an overview of the grand campaign in War in the East from the Soviet side.

I think that having played the Germans a couple of times was valuable for tackling the Russian campaign. I knew what they were capable of, what their objective likely were, the distances they could cover in a turn, who their best commanders were, their reinforcement schedule, that sort of thing. But I still had no clue how to play the Russians. I concluded that was perfect. Being clueless would mirror the state of the high command in June of '41, and as the Stavka did in reality, I would learn as I went

1941

When the map opens, your forces are arrayed more or less as they were on June 22 1941. Fatally vulnerable to a panzerblitz. German has the initiative, it is a surprise attack after all, and gets to go first. As the Russian, this is pretty traumatic. The opening airfield strikes were effective, but against the AI I got off a bit better than I expected. Lost 2,000 planes, which are historical levels, but half of what I managed when playing as the Germans. On the ground the Germans had what I felt was a poor opening in the South. They took Lvov and Rovno first turn, but failed to gain any big encirclement, or deep penetration, allowing me to extract most of the forces in the south and begin a retreat to the Dnepr river. In the Ukraine my best armored forces were deployed, and most were saved. I began the retreat toward Kiev and the Dnepr. Falling back on my own railheads, while the Germans ranged away from their own meant I might be able to get there first despite the German mobility advantage. And in Army Group South there is only one Panzer Group, most of it is foot slogging infantry and no faster than my own.

In the North and Center however, the German AI ripped me apart. Not only did they manage a number of large encirclements, they also managed to flip a lot of territory. The AI's first turn was better here than any I have managed. The entire front was written off essentially. A few of the trapped units would hold out for a few months, simply because the German bypassed them. One air-drop supported cavalry unit almost reached Warsaw when I deemed the enemy wasn't paying attention, but they were and destroyed them one hex short.

After the first turn I was in a sort of mild panic. My forces were no match for the German. Crap units, low morale, obsolete equipment and on the run everywhere. And the Germans had just chopped off a full quarter of my total strength. German success in this campaign is critically tied to their performance in the first summer. Is is crucial they destroy as much of the Red Army as they can, otherwise they will eventually be snowed under. Here the first turn had to go to the German, but I felt I saved more than expected, especially aircraft and the good tank and mechanized divisions in the Ukraine due to the German's tepid opening turn in the South. More than anywhere else there is space to trade for time here.

Despite the dire situation I had a couple of things going for me. Reinforcements and rail capacity. Virtually every turn new units arrived at the far eastern edge of the map. Using the rails, these units were relatively quickly moved to the places I needed them. In addition, the rails were used to shift forces from one threatened sector to another. This sort of strategic mobility is a big advantage over the Germans, who never have enough rail capacity to do this sort of thing.

As the turns ticked by I got my act together, and formed defensive lines. We were able to stop the blitzkrieg on a line Narva-Pskov-Smolensk-Kiev-Odessa. This was better than I had expected frankly, especially after the opening turn. But the relentless reinforcement and ability to shift forces quickly meant I had plenty of operational leeway to defend the country. Heavy German pressure eventually forced me out of Pskov, and I abandoned Odessa and fell back on Nikolaev when the German threatened to get behind me. But we held firm 100 miles west of the Denpr bend. The high point of the German advance saw them reach the gates of Kiev, and they had shoved me out of the way to the north of Smolensk, though the city itself would hold. As the mud and blizzards arrived the German assault had ground to a halt and we were managing our first local encirclements. It felt like the two armies had reached an equilibrium, which meant the future looked good for me.

Mechanically I at first had little idea what to do. It's completely different from the German side as the Russian player needs to essentially build his army. Things like support units are created manually using admin points. The command structure goes through a number of changes. For example I had spent a good deal of time and points squaring away my corps structures only to have these HQs abolished several turns later. I knew this happened historically, but in the game this info is missing for the withdrawal list, it just happens with no notification. Additionally, over time the command capacity of each HQ drops, as the Russians realized that smaller formations were easier to control. It all adds up to a massive administration challenge to the player. Honestly the amount of effort that goes in to organizing and transporting the Russian army in the game is daunting and few will relish this sort of thing.

Along these sames lines other changes occur. Those beautiful tank divisions that I was so happy to have saved in the opening stages are downgraded to tank brigades, which are a fraction of the combat value. The excess tanks go in to the pool to fit out arriving units. So while it has an immediate detrimental effect it is setting the stage for the Red Army 2.0.

Another thing the Russian player needs to deal with is the evacuation of threatened industry. Our prospects of successfully mobilizing a kick-ass army are closely linked to our industry and production. It's important to save what you can, and transport these factories to remote cities near the Urals. I managed to save everything. We didn't lose a single armament or heavy industry point, nor any vehicle or aircraft factories. The bliztkreig did have an effect on manpower, but our production was unaffected long term. There is a short term effect as these factories come back on line however. Crucially, the production at Leningrad, Kharkov and Moscow was never seriously at risk.

So 1941 was spent retreating to defensible lines, re-organizng the command structure and filling out HQs with support units. I focused especially on AAA, artillery and units that could dig like sappers, engineers and RR construction units. Fortification levels are so important, especially as the Russian in 1941. You need to be able to dig in as quickly as possible to help resist the powerful German units.

When the blizzard hit I launched a counter offensive north of Smolensk that eliminated the salient there and re-took Vitebsk and straightened the line. The stage was set for 1942.

1942

1942 is the birth of Red Army 2.0. A number of important changes occur that help to strengthen the Russian formations. The best of these is the corps structure. The Russian army after 1941 is set up similarly to the German army, but with the corps eliminated as a HQ level. In the German army the descending hierarchy is OKH-Army Group-Army-Corps. in the Russian Army it is Stavka-Front-Army. So in effect, the Russian Army is the equivalent to the German Corps. Except it's not really, and that;s because of the Russian ability to form corps out of their divisions and form a single counter. Three brigades can be combined in to a division. Three divisions can be combined in to a corps. Over time, the Russian player gains these abilities, and cavalry corps are the first to be allowed, and this occurs in December of 1941, just in time for the counter offensive. The reason that corps are so powerful is due to the stacking limit. You can't have more than 3 units of any type in any hex. So by combing divisions in to corps, you are essentially putting 9 divisions in a single hex. By the end of 1942 the Russian has the ability to also form Rifle, Tank and Mechanized Corps. All of this cost admin points, it's not free and takes time.

The Russian player also has the ability to manually build any type of unit for an admin cost. need more tank brigades or fighter squadrons? Just a couple of clicks and they are formed and will fill out depending on pool levels. It's an amazingly flexible system and one that I complained earlier that the German player would benefit from, especially the ability to create new HQs. I didn't even know I could manually build combat units until spring of 1942 when I worked it out. Until then I had only built new support units. Which is fine because I think it worked out well, and meant the summer of 1942 would see a massive expansion of the Red Army.

So we simultaneously launched a general offensive and built a new army. New airfields, and fighter and bomber squadrons. New tank brigades and mechanized brigades. Turn after turn these units were built, and combined with arriving reinforcements and the Red Army would be massive by the end of the year. In the South I essentially held in place in 1942. Local attacks, small gains, getting new armies in to the line. In the Center we pushed forward a bit. More of a blunt thing, no chance to run pincers or encirclements really at this point. The German had recovered over the spring, My main operation was an effort to shorten the line to set good jump off points for 1943. The goal was to strike west from a point north of Vitebsk, using the Dauvina river as a southern boundary and heading for Riga. This would cut off any forces that failed to get out of Estonia. And that's what happened. It took a few months, but the German failed to properly recognize the threat and we ended up cutting off nearly a million men. It was a blow from which they would struggle to recover and our first real operational success other than the counteroffensive north of Smolensk during December and January.

The end of 1942 saw us hold a line of Koenigsberg-Orsha-Kiev-Nikolaev. As good as that was, the best thing to come out of 1942 was Red Army 2.0. The corps structure meant we could now put a hell of a lot of combat value in each and every hex along the front. Three Guards Rifle Corps is about 100,000 men. Three German Infantry Divisions is about 45,000 men. This is where the real power of the Russian army comes from. As 1943 opened we held a massive advantage in numbers across the board. 10,000 more tanks,15,000 more aircraft,100,000 more artillery tubes and 4 million more men. With our industry at full tilt the stage was set for massive assault in 1943.

1943

The new Red Army crashed in to the German all along the line with objectives of Lvov in the south, Warsaw in the Center and crossing the Vistula in the north. All were achieved, although Warsaw only in the final week of December. In addition, operations were run to strip Germany of her allies. The Italians left in summer, that's scripted. But Romania surrendered in August and Finland followed the next turn! In just one month, the German lost three of his satellites and their southern front was ready to crumble with the sudden loss of the Italians and Romanians (who it should be noted flipped to our side). The surrender of the Finns freed all of the forces defending the Leningrad region and they were sent south to add weight to the push to Berlin.

The German reacted well and constricted his lines but it meant that by the end of 1943 we had taken Posen, Warsaw, Bucharest, Krakow and Danzig. Of course as we move to the west in these regions, the front becomes narrower, meaning greater and greater concentrations of striking power on both sides per hex. My army is so big that this means large groups of operational reserves that can be railed to any sector, usually to exploit an advance as the German is no longer attacking except to relive pocketed units.

At the end of 1943 my army was complete. A massive force of over 8 million, with 25,000 tanks and 20,000 aircraft and all structure sorted. Armies linked to fronts, each with their attendant air groups, and in place and under command capacities. The stage was set for the assault to the Oder and then Berlin itself. Each hex sports an army. Of course the entire army can;t fit in the front hex, but across the frontage each hex is an army. Three rifle crops in the front hex, with additional corps and divisions along with tanks/mech backing them up with Shock Armies and Tank Armies deployed behind them. So even if the front hex burns all of it;s MP on an attack, the units in the next hex can leapfrog them and take advantage of an enemy dislodgement. And that's how we advance, Bang them back one hex at a time. The Germans don't hold a massive CV advantage like they once did, but they haven't stood still either and those German units have some excellent equipment in them. Still, they are just no longer able to hold us off in in general. The Red wave rolls on

1944



In 1944 I had a few objectives. One was to knock the last remaining German ally out of the war. Hungary still stood by them, so I shifted an entire front, the North Caucasus Front, to an assault through Romania to take Budapest, and with it Hungary surrendered. The Hungarians and the Germans put up a fanatical resistance on this operation and it was difficult but Hungary was out. It's now June of '44 and I have launched an offensive toward Berlin and the leading armor spearheads are within 30 miles of the Oder, and from there 30 more to Berlin. What a massive game.

A few screens.

This was the front at the end of 1943, Warsaw has just fallen. I seem meticulous about keeping a tidy line eh?




This is a month later and shows two offensives as well as the operation in Romania/Hungary to capture Budapest and knock Hungary out of the war.




And finally, the turn after an armored breakthrough was made in a thrust to Berlin in June of '44. The enemy has placed a ring around it. I will need to feed infantry in to the salient to hold the shoulders before the armor can push on. All of the red counters are Guards units. Units gain this designation through meritorious combat achievements and it increases morale and TOEs and if the entire Army is designated as Guards they gain an increase in command capacity.

Wow, your're turning this game to a cRPG

As always, really great read!

Haha, thanks.

The Soviet side is quite a challenge. Against a skilled human opponent it would be really difficult. One that is skilled in the ways of the "Panzer Ball" techniques could really do some damage. I managed to hold Rostov, Moscow and Leningrad, but against a good human player I can't see holding more than one of these objectives as the Russian.

Frankly I was amazed to see the massive mobilization that I had been up against as the Germans